Ich gone in less than 8 hours?

[xdestry]

Hi guys, last night around 3 am I looked at my royal gramma and it had hundreds of small white spots all over its body, fins, and face. I assumed immediately that it was ich, but was confused because just around 9 pm earlier he looked absolutely fine. All my other fish looked fine. Around 3 I was also dosing about 200 ml of calcium and 75 ml of alk. I went to sleep and today in the morning I checked again and the gramma looked great, not a single spot on his body nor on any of the other fish. I read that the trophont stage of ich lasts around three to seven days attached to the fish, so is it possible that the white spots were due to my dosing at the time somehow? Not really sure what happened here, all the fish look vibrant and healthy as ever now. The spots were literally in the hundreds on my gramma covering every part of its body. Thanks for any insight you guys can provide.

[scuzy]

That only shows that the ich already excited the fish and fell to substrate for more hatching

[billdogg]

It could easily have been fine sand particles or even precipitated Alk supplement sticking to it's slime coat. I would keep a close eye on everybody, however, and be prepared to QT them all if needed.

[Aquarist007]

Hi guys, last night around 3 am I looked at my royal gramma and it had hundreds of small white spots all over its body, fins, and face. I assumed immediately that it was ich, but was confused because just around 9 pm earlier he looked absolutely fine. All my other fish looked fine. Around 3 I was also dosing about 200 ml of calcium and 75 ml of alk. I went to sleep and today in the morning I checked again and the gramma looked great, not a single spot on his body nor on any of the other fish. I read that the trophont stage of ich lasts around three to seven days attached to the fish, so is it possible that the white spots were due to my dosing at the time somehow? Not really sure what happened here, all the fish look vibrant and healthy as ever now. The spots were literally in the hundreds on my gramma covering every part of its body. Thanks for any insight you guys can provide.

The white spots are not due to the ich...it is microscopic. The white spots are necrotic skin where the ich has buried into the mucosa of the fish
I've actually had that happen with my royal gamma but don't know why..just know it was not ich

[xdestry]

That only shows that the ich already excited the fish and fell to substrate for more hatching

Well the trophont stage as far as I've read lasts at the minimum 3 days which is why I was thinking it might not be ich.

It could easily have been fine sand particles or even precipitated Alk supplement sticking to it's slime coat. I would keep a close eye on everybody, however, and be prepared to QT them all if needed.

I was thinking it might be the alk as well, I will keep track of the fish to see if it comes back.

The white spots are not due to the ich...it is microscopic. The white spots are necrotic skin where the ich has buried into the mucosa of the fish
I've actually had that happen with my royal gamma but don't know why..just know it was not ich

Has anybody else ever observed the white spots on a gramma? I didn't see it on any of my other fish that night.

[CoralsAddiction]

Could also just be Lymphocytis

[scuzy]

Lymph are bigger sores

[xdestry]

Could also just be Lymphocytis

Maybe, not really sure what it was at this point but I am leaning towards precipitated alk/cal. There was no less than 500 white spots on the fish and today nothing at all

[GroktheCube]

Sounds like it was some sort of debris sticking to the fish.

[AcroporAddict]

Could also just be Lymphocytis

It is not Lymphocystis. Lymphocystis looks nothing like ick, and it is associated with finnage, not the body, as the OP reported. Lymphocystis looks like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_itQU3CcowS8/TJzxgBb9lGI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/yZBXF2DUkXg/s1600/Lymphocystis_Emperor_Angel_620px.jpg

[CoralsAddiction]

It is not Lymphocystis. Lymphocystis looks nothing like ick, and it is associated with finnage, not the body, as the OP reported. Lymphocystis looks like this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_itQU3CcowS8/TJzxgBb9lGI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/yZBXF2DUkXg/s1600/Lymphocystis_Emperor_Angel_620px.jpg

Not all lymph cases look the same. The fact that the spots randomly went away in 8hrs suggests that it in fact could be it because lymph comes and goes at random times. I once had a snowflake clownfish that was covered with white spots. I put in my QT as soon as I noticed the spots and 20 mins later spots were gone. Was it ich, brook or velvet? I don't think so. Fish went back to being perfectly normal afterwords.

[CoralsAddiction]

To OP, does your royal gramma have a white stringy poop or is it normal? May be some sort of an internal parasite?

[Pfisherman]

Do you have any cleaner shrimp? I've watched mine pull the white sored off of fish and throw them into the sand.

[Yodeling]

It could easily have been fine sand particles or even precipitated Alk supplement sticking to it's slime coat. I would keep a close eye on everybody, however, and be prepared to QT them all if needed.

I would tend to suspect the above.

[snorvich]

Lymphocystis tends to be persistent and recedes over time. Precipitate matches the symptoms and especially time line displayed.

[AcroporAddict]

Not all lymph cases look the same. The fact that the spots randomly went away in 8hrs suggests that it in fact could be it because lymph comes and goes at random times. I once had a snowflake clownfish that was covered with white spots. I put in my QT as soon as I noticed the spots and 20 mins later spots were gone. Was it ich, brook or velvet? I don't think so. Fish went back to being perfectly normal afterwords.
Sorry, but lymphocystis does not disappear in 8 hours. Just doesn't happen. Takes several weeks.

It can appear on the skin, but it tends break out where the fish's immune system has the least presence, like along fins and gills.

Your snowflake clown would not have recovered from lymphocystis in 20 minutes. Your issue was something else.

And if you choose not to believe me, then here is a primer on the illness from the the University of Florida, in which they state "Lymphocystis is usually a self-limiting disease, meaning that, in most cases, the lesions will clear up after a few weeks in warmwater fish species (up to 6 weeks in cool or coldwater species)." Weeks, not minutes and not hours.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa181

[AcroporAddict]

Lymphocystis tends to be persistent and recedes over time. Precipitate matches the symptoms and especially time line displayed.

This ^.

[CoralsAddiction]

Your snowflake clown would not have recovered from lymphocystis in 20 minutes.


It was the oddest thing ever and after checking a few sites on marine diseases Lymph was the closest thing to what had happened to the clownfish. Anyway, I hope OPs fish does well whatever it is the fish has.

[xdestry]

Happened again last night, around 12 the gramma looked fine and at 3 it was covered in tiny dots again. Did not dose this time however, but still the dots were all gone by morning. Other fish still look as healthy as ever. Guessing if it's not precipitate maybe just some sand stuck to it, does a fish's slime coat get thicker at night? I'll take a pic the next time this happens

[Sk8r]

That's bizarre. Slime coat varies. And I've seen stuff stick to fish, but calcium? Are you dosing cal and alk straight into the tank? Predissolve it, at very least.

[xdestry]

That's bizarre. Slime coat varies. And I've seen stuff stick to fish, but calcium? Are you dosing cal and alk straight into the tank? Predissolve it, at very least.

Since last time I actually got my doser set up dosing into the sump, only on for 2:30 every hour into high flow so I don't think it's the precipitate anymore, but who knows? It's either a new species of ich that only lasts less than 8 hours in the trophont stage, or sand are the only two things it could be. I have been trying to feed my maze brain every night since it was receding, which is why I'm up at 3 am checking on the tank lol. Usually the gramma is hiding somewhere but last night it was in a small hole near the front of the tank so I could see it. Who knows what's going on haha, I'm just happy every morning I wake up and see him healthy and swimming around again :hmm5:

[AcroporAddict]

Grammas like rock work, and your fish probably does not have precipitate, meaning CaCO3, but has dust off the rocks he is hiding in sticking to his slime coat.

I don't think you have a real problem.

[slief]

Sorry, but lymphocystis does not disappear in 8 hours. Just doesn't happen. Takes several weeks.



I agree... :beer:

[Aquarist007]

Grammas like rock work, and your fish probably does not have precipitate, meaning CaCO3, but has dust off the rocks he is hiding in sticking to his slime coat.

I don't think you have a real problem.

Agreed that routinely happens on my gamma

[Portsie]

What's on for lights when you're checking on the fish. I had an ich outbreak, and you could barely see it when all the lights were on, but it really stood out during my dusk setting with just the blues.

[xdestry]

Alright I didn't look close enough this morning, there are still small spots on the fish now but yesterday there was a lot more. Also the spots seemed larger last night compared to now. Pretty sure it's ich now but I am not sure why last time it happened it came and went in less than 8 hours. Can anybody confirm? If it's ich Ill be setting up a hospital tank for the fish to keep them in for around 2 months, not looking forward to it but it's gotta be done :thumbdown

I have a purple tang, royal gramma, two clowns, a mandarin goby, yellow watchman goby, and a bengaii cardinal. Will these guys all fit in a 20 gallon tank or do you think I'll need two? Also how do you keep a mandarin in quarantine without copepods?


Thanks for everyone's help, someone tell me its not ich! :spin1:

http://i.imgur.com/5nxZEqK.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/w5RV2ry.jpg?1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoVZxvhbmo&feature=youtu.be

[Aquarist007]

How long have the fish been in this tank. When was the last time you added something new. If the other fish have been in there for awhile and have not gotten ich chances are they won't
The gamma looks Like it has been picked on ie stressed out therefore it's immunity worn down
I would remove it and hypos alienate giving it a chance to recover from what was stressing it out at the same time

[xdestry]

Fish have all been in this tank for about a month, i originally bought an established set up with all these fish back in early june. I had a friend take care of the livestock for me while i set the tank back up and cycled it and i picked up all of the livestock around july 4th and they have all been in there since. I have never added any fish that was not in the original tank, however i have added a new shrimp, snails, and corals since then. None of the other fish have shown any signs of ich since then. The gramma today looks totally fine again i guess the ich has fallen off. I dont see anytjing else bullying the gramma the only fish that would i think would be the purple tang and he doesnt bother him at all. They were in the same tank for two years before. Im going to see when the next round of ich comes back on the gramma before deciding what to do i think

[Aquarist007]

How often have you seen the spots appear and disappear
The pattern of ich is appear on the fish, leave the host and attack the host after around 10 days again...usually fatal at this point
It does not appear and disappear nightly

Ich can get in your tank via hitch hiking on inverts because the stores can't treat invert tanks for ich.

[xdestry]

Last time i saw this happen was 8/02 and again on 8/07, im not sure if there were any dots in between because i dont see the gramma every night, knly when ot chooses to sleep somewhere visible. Ill try and check every night to see when the next time it comes bck is

[theoregonian]

Do you have new dry rock? When I started up my tank the Midas Benny goes into his hole and comes out covered in fine particulates. They tend to stick to the fish for an hour or two. If you do have new dry rock try using a turkey baster in the small holes and you will see the fine particulates blow out.

[Aquarist007]

Last time i saw this happen was 8/02 and again on 8/07, im not sure if there were any dots in between because i dont see the gramma every night, knly when ot chooses to sleep somewhere visible. Ill try and check every night to see when the next time it comes bck is

That would be great I am very curious about this

Curious what your feeding regiment is like

[xdestry]

I feed frozen mysis shrimp 2x a day soaked in garlic and selcon, sometimes throw a cube of cyclopeeze in the mix as we'll but it seems like the fish just like the mysis

[Aquarist007]

I feed frozen mysis shrimp 2x a day soaked in garlic and selcon, sometimes throw a cube of cyclopeeze in the mix as we'll but it seems like the fish just like the mysis

That's great..that kind of feeding will help the other fish build up their immunity systems
Once you have ich in the system there is no sense in taking the fish out further stressing them in removing the ich and then placing them back in a tank full of ich.

I'll suggest something else here that has worked for me in a lot of tanks where ich as broke out. I stress worked for me(not looking for a debate here)

That is using a uv sterilizer. The ich is in the water column between the first and third stage where it is vulnerable to a uv. I have found that after a few months there is no trace of ich nor have I seen it return
Just a suggestion here.

[ca1ore]

I would wait until other fish start showing symptoms before doing anything drastic. Gramma looks a little rough in those pictures, and although it certainly looks like ich, perhaps the fish is just generally unhealthy (no implied criticism, it happens). Although nothing short of removing all fish to treatment and leaving the tank fallow for 72 days will rid your tank of the parasite, things like a UV sterilizer may help to reduce parasite pressure.

There are lots of people who report ich symptoms, but are able to manage it and or simply have it go away and not return. Unfortunately, there are even more people who have it wipe out the tank. Not entirely sure what dictates the former versus the latter - perhaps a combination of fish population health and a less aggressive strain of ich? Simply speculating!

I have had ich in my tank for about 10 months, probably longer. I feed a balanced and considerable diet to my fish (though no garlic) and keep water quality as high as possible. I run a UV and a very large skimmer and have a high density of SPS corals (could they see the ich parasite as food, or is it too small). The only fish that periodically shows spots is my Achilles Tang; Hippo used to but does not anymore. I have had ich wipe my tank before, so cannot say with any certainty why this time the parasite appears less aggressive. As long as your other fish are clear and look healthy I'd not do anything. Goes without saying, but try to resist the urge to add any new fish :)

[billsreef]

Considering the extent of fin damage in those pictures, I suspect the "appearance" and "disappearance" has been more a matter of lighting and the limitations of the human eye, with possibly some sand debris thrown in just to confuse things. IMO, I'd be treating the fish for the ich.

[xdestry]

Last time i saw this happen was 8/02 and again on 8/07, im not sure if there were any dots in between because i dont see the gramma every night, knly when ot chooses to sleep somewhere visible. Ill try and check every night to see when the next time it comes bck is

Okay so last time this happened was 8/07. on 8/08 the fish was clean and healthy and 8/09 had slight dots both at night and throughout the day. 8/10 yesterday the fish looked healthy again and today 8/11 the fish had no dots the whole day until just now when i checked around 9 PM, bunch of dots on it now.

as for the fin damage i think that is how the gramma has looked for a while ever since i picked him up in the owners tank 2 months back. he said the fish was pretty old already.

anyways back to the ich, it seems like it comes and goes every two days and never stays on the fish for more than a full 24 hours without going away. I have been looking very closely daily and keeping a log. still nothing on any of the other fish.

[billsreef]

as for the fin damage i think that is how the gramma has looked for a while ever since i picked him up in the owners tank 2 months back. he said the fish was pretty old already.

Fin damage isn't a feature of old age. They nature of the fin erosion in that photo is that of some kind of infection, either parasitic or bacterial, with parasitic being the most common and bacterial typically only as a secondary infection to parasites or poor water quality.

[FishN00b83]

I'm just throwing something out there...have you looked into lympho?

never mind that was mentioned already

[SoonerE39]

My RG recently died of Ich. It looked much like yours in the pictures including the frayed fins, although mine had fewer spots. It actually started acting like it was improving just before I moved it to a quarantine tank and treated it with Cupramine. The stress of the move (or the Cupramine) did him in and he died 3 days after I moved him to QT. All my other fish are still in QT and have a couple weeks to go before out.
In my particular case, I now wish I had left the RG in the DT to ride it out since he appeared to be improving at the time.
I'm not saying thats the right thing for you - just sharing my experience.

[Aquarist007]

That's great..that kind of feeding will help the other fish build up their immunity systems
Once you have ich in the system there is no sense in taking the fish out further stressing them in removing the ich and then placing them back in a tank full of ich.

I'll suggest something else here that has worked for me in a lot of tanks where ich as broke out. I stress worked for me(not looking for a debate here)

That is using a uv sterilizer. The ich is in the water column between the first and third stage where it is vulnerable to a uv. I have found that after a few months there is no trace of ich nor have I seen it return
Just a suggestion here.
Repeat post or restated

Btw
Tks Bill for joining in on the thread. Your expertise is really appreciated