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dloehrs
08/11/2014, 06:53 AM
Hey All,
I recently had the opportunity to get in on some wholesale purchasing with a friend through Exotic Reef Imports. http://www.exoticreefimports.com Does anyone have information on where and how these guys get their fish and corals? They have nothing on their website that mentions their ethical responsibilities to reef preservation and I am becoming more and more aware of the destruction of reefs for our hobby.
I have been trying to find information on aquaculturing and mariculturing. I have found a few places that do it but their stock is very limited, especially fish.
So, in short, I need recommendations on responsible aquaculturists, responsible importers and importers to stay away from.
Thanks

billsreef
08/11/2014, 08:18 AM
You won't find that info readily available from most wholesalers. However, I have dealt with ERI in the past, and always found their fish and inverts to arrive in excellent shape with high rates of survival.

Fish Biscuit
08/11/2014, 03:14 PM
One of our LFS orders from ERI & fish have always been in good shape upon arrival.

No one is going to tell you what suppliers they buy from overseas, it's how they keep an edge on the competition.

Zoodiver
08/12/2014, 02:07 PM
Most people wouldn't be happy to see the losses that happen in order to get the fish into the stores. Between divers/collectors, sellers, importers/wholesalers, retailers.... a fish goes through a LOT before getting to a store where you buy it.

The reason you won't find many long 'captive bred' or aquacultured stock lists is because not many species of marine fish can be captive bred in mass quantities that is cost effective vs just collecting them.

When I find a quality diver/collector or importer, I cling to them like crazy.

Ztrain
08/12/2014, 05:59 PM
When I find a quality diver/collector or importer, I cling to them like crazy.

Mind sharing that knowledge? I'm going to try and get everything for my new tank as captive raised except for the six line wrasse which I don't think can be. Other then that everything on my list will be captive bred.

Also on Exotic Reef aren't they the guy's the have been featured on a few episodes of Tanked? I think they fly out there to pick some stuff every now and then so you can see how they go fondle their fish. Rest of the place looks like a fairly good outfit at least what's seen on the show. I don't know if I'd like someone coming in and picking out fish by picking them up out of the water lol but to each their own.

lhm nole
08/12/2014, 10:05 PM
Mind sharing that knowledge? I'm going to try and get everything for my new tank as captive raised except for the six line wrasse which I don't think can be. Other then that everything on my list will be captive bred.

Also on Exotic Reef aren't they the guy's the have been featured on a few episodes of Tanked? I think they fly out there to pick some stuff every now and then so you can see how they go fondle their fish. Rest of the place looks like a fairly good outfit at least what's seen on the show. I don't know if I'd like someone coming in and picking out fish by picking them up out of the water lol but to each their own.
Yes but they switched to seadwellling creature last season

GreshamH
08/13/2014, 11:48 AM
Yes but they switched to seadwellling creature last season

They've used both from the get go.

GreshamH
08/13/2014, 11:49 AM
One of our LFS orders from ERI & fish have always been in good shape upon arrival.

No one is going to tell you what suppliers they buy from overseas, it's how they keep an edge on the competition.

Quality Marine will... but only because its their own short chain supply.

Cu455
08/13/2014, 12:24 PM
I was checking out the sea dwelling creatures website and they have some pinecone fish.
https://www.flickr.com//photos/seadwellingcreatures/sets/72157645843264027/show/

EDIT: I guess the link takes you to the start of the album. It is the 8th video.

Zoodiver
08/14/2014, 06:01 AM
Most big companies (ATM, Living Color etc...) buy from multiple vendors. They only show you part of the process on the TV shows.

billsreef
08/14/2014, 09:40 AM
Also keep in mind, most wholesalers will only sell to properly licensed businesses...and many will only sell to verifiable brick and mortar stores. All also have minimum order requirements, the smallest I've known (outside of having a personal connection) is $500 per order...

GreshamH
08/14/2014, 02:54 PM
Most big companies (ATM, Living Color etc...) buy from multiple vendors. They only show you part of the process on the TV shows.

correct, but only 2 are part of the show... that was my only point.

Many wholesalers use the same exporters as the other wholesalers. I worked that side of the industry for many years. QM has a lot of exclusives though, more so then the rest.

Luiz Rocha
08/17/2014, 02:58 PM
You won't find that info readily available from most wholesalers.

I find that frustrating. Do you think this is something that we, as a community, should start asking for?

billsreef
08/17/2014, 05:07 PM
I find that frustrating. Do you think this is something that we, as a community, should start asking for?

Can't hurt, and might help by exerting some consumer pressure. Some (not many) wholesalers do mention where their fish come from, so exerting pressure on the LFS for that info could put some pressure on the LFS to do business with wholesalers that do divulge that info. IMO, back when I was in the trade, that sort of info was a selling point in my choosing wholesalers ;)

Luiz Rocha
08/17/2014, 09:24 PM
Can't hurt, and might help by exerting some consumer pressure. Some (not many) wholesalers do mention where their fish come from, so exerting pressure on the LFS for that info could put some pressure on the LFS to do business with wholesalers that do divulge that info. IMO, back when I was in the trade, that sort of info was a selling point in my choosing wholesalers ;)

Nice. Along those lines, check this paper that just came out about anemonefish collecting in Indonesia:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0964569114002269

I had no idea this many were still collected from the wild... Why aren't captive bred ones replacing those? Still more expensive?

billsreef
08/18/2014, 05:24 AM
Thanks for the article. The abstract is quite interesting, I'll definitely read the whole paper later...when I've had more coffee :D

As for wild clowns vs. captive bred, yeah, still a price difference. Also still a limited number of suppliers, though growing. Most of the growth is in the "high end" morphs...aka culls for those of us purists that like wild types ;) Price wise on common ocellaris, your looking at wild caught being half the price of captive bred, with the wild caught being typically the only version available from the wholesaler one is buying the rest of their fish from. Add in, at least for one supplier, captive bred suppliers having minimum order quantities that are often higher than some LFS want to be stocking at.

Spyderturbo007
08/18/2014, 07:21 AM
I would much rather spend twice as much to get something captive bred than purchasing something wild caught. I also wouldn't mind spending more on my fish if they (the collectors & importers) would use the money to increase the survival rate of the fish.

My Banggai Cardinals and both of my clowns are captive bred. My 2-Spot Tang was not, but I didn't have a choice.

Alexraptor
08/18/2014, 08:02 PM
One should also consider that buying wild caught specimens can also help save reefs.
Things like that are never black and white.

Luiz Rocha
08/18/2014, 09:46 PM
One should also consider that buying wild caught specimens can also help save reefs.

You got my attention, any examples of that?

GreshamH
08/20/2014, 11:40 AM
Can't hurt, and might help by exerting some consumer pressure. Some (not many) wholesalers do mention where their fish come from, so exerting pressure on the LFS for that info could put some pressure on the LFS to do business with wholesalers that do divulge that info. IMO, back when I was in the trade, that sort of info was a selling point in my choosing wholesalers ;)

Most lists I've seen in recent times have country of origin. When I was in that side of the trade, my lists for sure denoted it.

GreshamH
08/20/2014, 11:42 AM
You got my attention, any examples of that?

Higher value of the reef then that of, say, food fish (for sale) or mining reefs for building materials. You haven't heard that argument before? All the reef aquarium NGO's have used it.

Luiz Rocha
08/20/2014, 05:39 PM
Higher value of the reef then that of, say, food fish (for sale) or mining reefs for building materials. You haven't heard that argument before? All the reef aquarium NGO's have used it.

No, haven't heard it, links? As much as I like the idea, I doubt aquarium collectors would have any power against mining companies. As far as food fisheries go, a healthy reef is also beneficial for that, but we all know that everyone wants to make as much profit as possible in the short term...

I do think that the aquarium trade is much better at self-regulating than the food fisheries. For a fisherman, it doesn't matter how much grouper he fishes, he will sell every pound for a good price. But for aquarium fish, if the supply becomes too high, prices drop, and that hurts collectors.

GreshamH
08/25/2014, 01:19 PM
No, haven't heard it, links? As much as I like the idea, I doubt aquarium collectors would have any power against mining companies. As far as food fisheries go, a healthy reef is also beneficial for that, but we all know that everyone wants to make as much profit as possible in the short term...

I do think that the aquarium trade is much better at self-regulating than the food fisheries. For a fisherman, it doesn't matter how much grouper he fishes, he will sell every pound for a good price. But for aquarium fish, if the supply becomes too high, prices drop, and that hurts collectors.

Mining, no... but when it comes to going out to blast fish for less money, or collect MO for more money, which do you think would win?

Prices dropping typically hurts the exporter. The collectors tend to get a shittty pay no matter what the exporter gets ;)

GreshamH
08/25/2014, 01:23 PM
Just read Marine Aquarium Councils published stuff, International Marinelife Alliance or even the state if reefs published by NOAA in the mid 2000's. All of them tout the more money for reef line.

I know for a fact it does pay better in some areas. In Baja our collectors if not collecting for us, would be poaching the last few big groupers, and abalone... or working for the cartels. There's little work otherwise. This is in Baja, islanders have even less chances of making money in some places.

fishome25
09/09/2014, 05:26 PM
Luiz here is a good article on the topic.
http://www.reefs.com/forum/reefs-magazine/170078-why-point-origin-matters.html

Spyderturbo007
09/10/2014, 06:20 AM
Does anyone know if this is a legitimate statement, regarding collection geography? I pulled it from the article that fishome25 posted above.


We know, for example, a fish sourced from smaller developing island nations like Fiji and Solomon Islands is far more likely to have been sustainably and ethically harvested than an animal sourced from Indonesia or the Philippines. This is, in part, because supply chains in the smaller countries are often shorter and more transparent. While there are sustainable aquarium fisheries in Indonesia and the Philippines, the lack of supply chain transparency, as well as the lack of enforcement of existing laws in those countries, makes purchasing an animal from these countries a much riskier proposition at this time.

GreshamH
09/11/2014, 12:34 PM
Yes... you can add Hawaii and Australia to that as well.

accordsirh22
09/16/2014, 05:46 PM
i try to order everything captive bred/propagated whenever possible. whenever i order stuff that has to be wild caught, i always try to go hawaiian/australian/fiji for that reason. indo stuff is cheaper and usually less healthy. speaking as a retailer, dealing with wholesalers

tigerjace
10/15/2014, 10:43 AM
you won't find that info readily available from most wholesalers. However, i have dealt with eri in the past, and always found their fish and inverts to arrive in excellent shape with high rates of survival.

+1

sdcfish
11/05/2014, 10:54 PM
Good topic…..

We always have labeled our fish with the origin next to the item name….F for Fiji, B for Bali etc….T/R for Tanked Raised……customers can choose their fish by location if they are concerned about origins or prefer a specific origin. For example, right now we have Multi-bar Angels (Paracentropyge multifacsiata) spelling? some from Bali and some from Marshal Islands. Look similar, but the Marshal ones are highly sought after for their much better success rates. I am pretty sure a few other wholesalers label the origins too….it was very much part of the MAC standards, but we had been doing it long before that just for our own tracking.