Zoas doing poorly...

[Mark9]

Is there a secret to keeping zoa's?
Seems like everybody says they are easy, they spread like wildfire, etc.
I just cannot seem to have a thriving colony.
They look ok for awhile, then they generally close up and never come back.
have tried them on the bottom, middle and upper level, no difference.
I have a Red Sea Max 250, 65 gallons.
6 bulb T5's, running ATI blue+, aquable special and coral+.
All other corals generally do ok, I have a couple torches, frogspawn, softies (kenya tree, leather, devils hand, xenia etc), and some lps which are doing quite good.
Now I did have an issue with my sg, it was high, which put my mg way up there, but all that has been corrected.
currently
sg 1.026
ph 8
ca 390
mg 1380
kh 9.8

I know ca is a bit low, but i've decided to dose kent marine cb, ordered, not arrived yet.
I may do a wc before it gets here.
Basically, everything came through the sg incident ok, with the exception of the zoas, which have never looked good.

[Scribe]

Wish I had a good answer for you. The majority of my reefing has surrounded Zoas, and the frustration that goes with them. I've talked to plenty of reefers that have the same problem, as I have many times. I've got a handful of colonies right now that stay closed almost all the time, and plenty of others that are doing awesome. I've heard in the past that Zoas like water a little dirty (some nitrates and phosphates), wether this is true, and how dirty they like it I've never seen numbers. My params are very close to yours, except the calcium, my phosphates are about .08ppm and nitrates are maybe and my nitrates are 3ppm. So pretty clean. Luckily right now all my nicer Zoas are doing great, while some of the less appealing ones are closed up.

This is a very frustrating problem indeed. I've dealt with most zoa pests in my years of blowing money on these finicky coals, and this is the hardest to solve for sure. At least sundials you can pull off, spiders and nudi's can be handled many ways. I'm debating taking one of the frags, splitting it and dipping some in coral RX, some in lugols, and some just moving to see if it helps.

So that's my long winded way of saying, it's not just necessarily what you are or are not doing, sometimes it's just them.

Have you dipped at all?
Noticed anything picking at them?
See anything odd on them?

[Mark9]

Have you dipped at all?
Noticed anything picking at them?
See anything odd on them?

Thanks for answering.
I have some Coral Rx, but have not dipped the zoa's.
The first corals I dipped didn't make it, so I got leery of using it again.
Followed the instructions meticulously.
I do have a Coral beauty, but have not seen him nip the Zoa's.
He seems to like the Montipora.
Can see nothing odd on them, they just close up into a white ball, then wither away.
Forgot to include a couple readings, nitrates and phosphates are both 0.

[Scribe]

I've heard to keep them in good flow when they don't look great too. I tried that before with average results. How old is your tank? I can't say I've had a ton of luck with dips myself. I do t know if I wait too long or what. I keep hearing about revive...which I might try. Like I said I wish I had a better answer for you. I was just reading about the dip method posted by mucho, and he swears by it. It's old, and admittedly I didn't get all the way through. So I don't know if techniques change throughout the post. I've also heard almost the exact opposite too, to never do fresh water dips. I think everyone is just guessing to tell you the truth....a results are a total crap shoot.

[Josh40996]

I am experiencing the same problem. I have just pronounced my colony of Eagle Eye Zoas deceased after they closed up and have never returned, just withered away. I also have a nice small colony, ~30 polyps, withering away. It is now around 15 polyps which still open but are very beaten up. Nitrates are ~0 and PO3 ~0.07. Yet I have a large colony of some no ID Zoas which are thriving, something fishy is going on.

[Scribe]

I have a hard time keeping eagles eyes myself. No idea why. They are one of the most common, so you think they would be easy to keep.

[LIONFISH5740]

I don't know what test kit you're using but zero nitrates and phosphates isn't recommended for most people. My tank reads zero nitrates and .04 phosphates but I feed very heavily, dose aminos and carbon dose (still don't recommend zero for most people).

If they're closing up then there is a reason like bacterial infection, zoa pox, fungal infection, parasites, the water chemistry is off, chemical warfare between corals, lighting/flow issues, or possibly a combination of these. These corals can be notoriously difficult to diagnose if you're not experienced with zoa diseases/parasites but earlier treatment is best. Medicated dips don't hurt any of my corals and I have a small pharmacy for them lol. In my experience, the only time a dip will speed up their melting is if they've been excessively stressed for a long time. In that case it's most probably too late anyway :(

I have and use when needed Revive, Flatworm Exit, Furan-2, Malachite green, Bayer, Lugol's iodine, and Peroxide. I haven't used freshwater dips because I think it stresses the corals even more. Peroxide is can also be very harsh on them (some more than others), so be careful. I've had good results and only lost one frag of zoas while learning from what was a fungal outbreak (figured out what it was afterwards). I've done several consecutive dips when the problem is unknown with tank water dipping in-between to flush off any excess medication before returning to the tank with and swirling. I always do an iodine dip before returning to the tank. Of course quarantining would be smarter, especially if the cause is unknown! Never return the medicated water to your tank and have fresh salt water made. This makes it a small water change when treating your corals which is good. Doesn't hurt to run some carbon around this time either. I usually don't run carbon except after medicating or if my tank starts to develop a smell.

Do you know all the parasites for these corals and what to look for? If not then dip anyway and see if anything comes off of them. Make sure you know the method for using any of these medications so that you don't stress them over the tipping point.

Josh and Scribe, eagle eyes are the last to close in my tank from any irritant so I suspect something is certainly going on.

These are my opinions based on what has worked for me on my 25+ colonies. It doesn't mean that they're correct. I've researched extensively and found some other interesting methods that are heavily chemistry based that I won't suggest. I haven't tried them yet and can't find more than a handful of people that have attempted them. I have to wait for infestation before I can attempt them, although I'm trying to not allow that!

Good luck!

[Scribe]

Lionfish,
Have any good references for us on differences between fungal and bacterial infections. I feel as though I can spot pests and pox no problem. Not sure I know the difference between fungal and bacterial though. What is your dipping schedule like on problem Zoas? Weekly, daily? Sounds like you've got some good experience. Please share.

[organism]

The best things I've found to be most important are

1. Don't measure your salinity with anything less than a refractometer calibrated with 35 PPT calibration fluid. Try lowering your salinity and you might find they do a lot better at 1.024 instead of your 1.026. imo the vast majority of issues people have with zoanthids are salinity related.

2. Add kalk to your ATO container at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons to keep the alkalinity and calcium stable.

3. Make sure no colonies are in dead flow areas, without moderate flow if they get an infection or have some issue it'll eat them pretty quick.

[ClownFish0322]

I have trouble zoos too I had two colonies that were small 4 to5 polyps and they started to spread they wre eagle eye and watermelon zoanthids.
They died off do to hair algae I finally got the algae killed and am gonna start again.

[Scribe]

Well I just tried a furan-2 dip on three pieces. None of them looked like they were horrible, but not how they should be. Some just saw the edges of the skirts for last month or so, one frag had some algae growing on it, and the last half the. Polys closed and kind of crappy looking, while the other polyps were doing fine. So three different situations. We shall see what a 10 minute Furan-2 bath will do. Fingers crossed.

[that Fish Guy]

Wish I had a good answer for you. The majority of my reefing has surrounded Zoas, and the frustration that goes with them. I've talked to plenty of reefers that have the same problem, as I have many times. I've got a handful of colonies right now that stay closed almost all the time, and plenty of others that are doing awesome. I've heard in the past that Zoas like water a little dirty (some nitrates and phosphates), wether this is true, and how dirty they like it I've never seen numbers. My params are very close to yours, except the calcium, my phosphates are about .08ppm and nitrates are maybe and my nitrates are 3ppm. So pretty clean. Luckily right now all my nicer Zoas are doing great, while some of the less appealing ones are closed up.

This is a very frustrating problem indeed. I've dealt with most zoa pests in my years of blowing money on these finicky coals, and this is the hardest to solve for sure. At least sundials you can pull off, spiders and nudi's can be handled many ways. I'm debating taking one of the frags, splitting it and dipping some in coral RX, some in lugols, and some just moving to see if it helps.

So that's my long winded way of saying, it's not just necessarily what you are or are not doing, sometimes it's just them.

Have you dipped at all?
Noticed anything picking at them?
See anything odd on them?

I have a Low Nutrient Super Clean System and they do great.

I think that the Problem is that people do not Dip and so many Pests go after Zoanthids.

So if you don't dip then they are NOT easy to keep but if you do Dip they are the easiest Corals to keep.

For instance I have been Reefing for 5 Years now.

In the Last Year I started to Dip Revive (All Zoanthids get the Full 15 Minute Dip and I Blast and Blast them with a Turkey Baster).

I have never lost a Zoanthid Frag in the Last Year and have Purchased about 100 Frags in that Time.

I do not have a Single Zoanthid from my First 4 Years of Reefing that Survived.

They Only Difference is I started Dipping in the Last Year.

[that Fish Guy]

Thanks for answering.
I have some Coral Rx, but have not dipped the zoa's.
The first corals I dipped didn't make it, so I got leery of using it again.
Followed the instructions meticulously.
I do have a Coral beauty, but have not seen him nip the Zoa's.
He seems to like the Montipora.
Can see nothing odd on them, they just close up into a white ball, then wither away.
Forgot to include a couple readings, nitrates and phosphates are both 0.

Never Trust Angels.

It may be eating them at Night or When you are Not Around.

And even if they do not currently eat them they may start one day.

I have seen it happen.

[inthedeep2]

Well I just tried a furan-2 dip on three pieces. None of them looked like they were horrible, but not how they should be. Some just saw the edges of the skirts for last month or so, one frag had some algae growing on it, and the last half the. Polys closed and kind of crappy looking, while the other polyps were doing fine. So three different situations. We shall see what a 10 minute Furan-2 bath will do. Fingers crossed.

just wondering how you did the furan 2 dip. please explain..

[Scribe]

I used 1 packet of APIs furan-2 to a little more then a cup of tank water. Let the frags sit in it for about 10-15 minutes. I swished them around occasionally, and then rinsed well in fresh tank water before putting them back in the tank.

[Scribe]

So far I've noticed exactly zero difference.
Orange no names, still just seeing the skirts. Lowered them a bit in tank. Rastas, most still open some have some algae on them. The speckled fire and ice. 2 open 2 still look like they have some brownish film on them and shriveling at the base. Might dip them all in Lugols or Furan-2 again this weekend. Ordering revive....I'll have the full are señor then. I think I'm going to start working on a little study.

[inthedeep2]

I did in revive and it does nothing as far as the melting.
I read somewhere that you have to do 3 days in a row with the furan. did you just do the one dose? or 3?

[that Fish Guy]

I did in revive and it does nothing as far as the melting.
I read somewhere that you have to do 3 days in a row with the furan. did you just do the one dose? or 3?

If they are already Melting then I would Imagine that they are too far gone to make it.

Revive is much better as a preventative.

Use it before you put any Zoanthids in to Stop any Pests from Entering your system.

Also, if you ever see them not looking good use Revive Right Away.

If you wait too long and they start melting then I feel that you are way to late.

You have to be on top of things.

[inthedeep2]

any zoas I put in my tank melt eventually. palys on the other hand do great.
I dip all corals in revive before going in the tank.

[Mikefromaz]

Ive been experiencing the same zoo decline that others seem to be having.. Curiously, the one and only colony which is doing great is also the only one infested with micro brittle starfish. I wonder if the stars are catching/eating bugs which are bothering the other zoo colonies? I had a colony maybe an inch from the one doing great in steady decine which never had starfish. I did a ten minute reef dip treatment a week or so ago....no effect at all. I do see an occasional "bug" walking around the zoos...maybe an eigth of an inch long. Im assuming they are pods of some kind. Has anyone else experienced this starfish thing?

[Mikefromaz]

By the way, my Palys, Duncans, brain, and leather corals are doing fine.

[Boom]

Mike, did you ever buy live rock, tank water and water mixing barrel from a woman in Maricopa?

[Mikefromaz]

No cant say that I have. My current tank was started from scratch with dry rock. The only live rock would be whatever minute pieces a few frags came on. Every coral piece gets a ten minute iodine dip before the display tank.

[Mark9]

Zoz's are doing better.
Calibrated the refractometer, found sq was high, brought it down,
The high SG caused mg to be way high.
After dropping the SG, had to up my dosing, alk was down to 6.3, ca to 390.
Back to basics, I guess I've been slipping.

[Mikefromaz]

Zoz's are doing better.
Calibrated the refractometer, found sq was high, brought it down,
The high SG caused mg to be way high.
After dropping the SG, had to up my dosing, alk was down to 6.3, ca to 390.
Back to basics, I guess I've been slipping.

Glad to hear your zoos are doing better. Mine were wierd....they really took off after i started dosing with ReefFuel, then they suddenly started down hill. Im wondering if it is possible to overdose with that stuff?

[Scribe]

I've got some calibration fluid on the way. I would be happy if that was my problems.

[lFATHOMl]

Mine are doing this as well. Just some zoas while others are fine. I thought it was my pmhipods eating them at night but they have only been eating the decaying ones. i think it might be my led's being too bright in this case. Good luck to you guys

[Scribe]

My SG was right on, according to the calibration fluid I got. I've dipped a bunch of my zoas in Lugols, as well as some chalices which were receding. Seems like the zoas are still doing the same thing....not rotting, melting, etc, just not opening a lot either. I'm starting to wonder if my LEDs are too bright for some of them as well.

[Mikefromaz]

I am using oolite sand amost as fine as flour. When the tank is disturbed the sand fliats around for a bit. Iam wondering if my one zoo coliny "ate" some suspendwd sand and became permanently irritated?

[DESNJ]

Quick "Me Too" post. I'm new to reefkeeping, have a 6-month old tank with some corals and, 2 ocellatus and a PJ cardinalfish. No detectable ammonia, nitrate or nitrite, pH 8.2, SG 1.025, Ca, Mg and alkalinity all OK last time I checked. Xenia is growing like a weed, paly is growing like a weed, GSP is beginning to take over the whole bottom of the tank, torch coral and some ricordeas are looking good. Watermelon zoa looked good at first and has got progressively worse. . I did find and got rid of a nudibranch and eggs, tried freshwater dips, then what looks like zoa pox set in. Did Furan 2 (1 packet/2 cups tank water x 30 min, then fresh saltwater wash) for 3 days running. No good, zoas still melting. 2 or 3 polyps out of ~50 still open and I'm thinking of fragging those off and relocating them. All in all, very frustrating. Any thoughts from anyone more experienced, greatly appreciated.

[Mark9]

I am far from being zoa experienced, but mine have been doing way better.
i have a clam, which was causing my ca/kh to vary, quite a bit.
So I added a dosing system, which keeps the kh to be pretty much stable at 8.4.
Had an accident where I messed up my ca dosing (accidentally did not put an 'end' time on one of my doses) which caused ca to spike to over 600.
it's coming down, but still higher than my target of 420.
The ca spike did not seem to affect any corals or fish.
In short, i'm not sure what has caused them to perk up, the steady kh or the high ca.

[Mark9]

Figured i'd give an update.
Basically, don't really have a zoa issue anymore, pretty much all are healthy.
Moved alot of corals around to try and find what works.
For my tank, with the 6 T5's, zoa's seem to do best mid tank.
Moved every zoa I have to mid tank level.
One colony that was on top still has a few unhappy polyps due to some algae on the stalk, not sure why the yellow tang isn't cleaning it as he does everything else.
Also, some of the zoas were bothered by the mushrooms.
Once they were separated, zoas way happier.
So take it fwiw, just my results.