natural filtration in marine aquariums

[Jimbo530]

I have cared for fresh water aquariums my whole life and done heavily planted tanks and i guess what you would call wet dry filters with live plants growing out of them to obtain systems with no water changes just top offs. is this going to be possible with a marine tank? what kind of water volumes and how many refugiums will it take to do this?
i figure at least 4 tanks and maybe a large tank or bin to dilute nutrients to safe levels during the time it would take to complete nitrogen cycle.


1st tank is algae cultures were i would add nutrients & top offs to the system this only overflows during top offs
2nd tank is mangrove and crab refugium
3rd tank is live rock with worms cope-pods and other little critters
4th tank is for display of corals and a few small fish and shrimp
5th tank a large area to increase water volume and house the pump will not be displayed or have any viewing ports.
the 2nd to the 5th tank will all be gravity fed overflows linking them in series were a pump returns flow from the last to the first.
will this work?
can this efficiency be reached with large water volumes and appropriate stock?
i appreciate your help.

[Mcgeezer]

Water changes are an absolute necessity in marine tanks, especially more so in reef tanks. It replenishes essential elements just as magnesium, strontium, iodine, etc. These dissipate over time without water changes and are removed thru skimming.

The amount of bio load in a fish only tank requires water changes to manually lower nitrate and the same for a reef tank to lower dissolved organics and phosphates.

People only need refugiums when they have too much nutrients. Reef keepers with good husbandry don't need them. They feed sparingly, use quality protein skimming, and utilize GFO and carbon. However, larger systems should try to utilize a refugium solely to keep up with the sheer amount or nitrate and phosphate that their system will produce.

On reef tanks, do NOT run a wet/dry filter. It will become a nitrate factory. Establish all of your nitrifying bacteria in your live rock. In a fish only tank, wet/dry is fine....but you will have to stay up with water changes to keep nitrate down.

The best piece of advice I can give is keep it simple. Good water flow/movement, mechanical filtration, good skimming, good nutrient export if needed and sufficient surface agitation is a recipe for success.

[Jimbo530]

i appreciate you input but i am a little disappointed by it. you didn't even try to solve any of the issues or think outside of the normal maintenance routine. I would like to make it clear this is not to reduce the amount of work or the expense of setting up/ maintaining my system but to get closer to a natural system to create a healthier happier environment for my live stock. also i will not ever risk lives of the animals i care for so would not use this system without monitoring it and doing whatever maintenance would need done including water feeding and water changes when and if necessary.

[anbosu]

Yes it would be possible. I'd look into a cryptic zone also if you're going to run several tanks to support your display.

Water changes are the easiest way to maintain water quality, which is why they are recommended so often. Refugiums aren't the most efficient method of nutrient export, but they do work if appropriately sized and can be a good way to boost microfauna population in the tank, which helps feed your fish.

[RocketEngineer]

I think the question becomes How big are these tanks? Are we talking about a series of 10g tanks or is this a 300g display with 75g+ support tanks in another room?

If the answer is the former, there are much simpler and easier methods. If the later, I wouldn't take that on as a first tank.

BTW, tank 1 wouldn't work because you top off with FRESH water. Tank 5 is typically called a sump.

[Dmorty217]

I like where you were headed with this but no one has 5 separate tanks that will need to gravity feed into one another for filtration purposes. Macro algae provides little nutrient export, mangroves grow way too slow to provide any benefit other than visually. Rock for filtration and a refugium are all you need, and water changes

[schatzi]

I have 5 different tanks.The DT is pump fed of course, all the others by gravity.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Water changes accomplish things that none of your methods will, such as adding back depleted trace elements, removing organics (which may be toxins released by organisms to kill neighbors or prevent being eaten), and removing trace elements that may accumulate beyond what is present in natural seawater.

If you added a skimmer and activated carbon, you'd be able to remove many organic contaminants, but without it, the water will likely yellow and organics will accumulate.

If the methods you suggest are unable to keep nitrate and phosphate adequately low, then there are many other methods we use to accomplish that reduction (GFO, organic carbon addition, denitrators, etc.). I also do water changes, 1% daily, automatically. We do these because they are most often necessary.

You will need to add a variety of elements, most notably calcium and alkalinity. I also add iron and silicate.

FWIW, I use many of the methods your propose, plus many others on the same system.

My 120 gallon display has attached to it 3 x 44 gallon Brute cans filled with live rock and topped with macroalgae. I also have 2 x 44 gallon Brute cans for a sump.

But these alone do not do what is needed, so I also use GFO, GAC, skimming, and vinegar dosing, along with limewater in top off for calcium and alkalinity.

[Jimbo530]

I understand the need to replace vital minerals in the water. these things can be dosed into the water appropriately if monitored. this system is not built and will take me time and $ but i am trying to find as much information as possible to make it as close to natural as i can get.
400 gal is a fairly easy build. only 1 cut in glass so was going to try for series of those. with a single tank in the series be for actual display. i watch my refugiums and sumps more i think but not everyone likes bugs worms and slime i guess.

[Jimbo530]

i am mostly concerned with appropriate water volumes to compensate for the time natural filtration takes as well as will need to fill in the holes in nutrient cycles and food chains when these issues arise and not all tanks have to flow from 1 to the next if i need to make multiple refugiums to culture different species of micro/macro organisms.
this would be like 1st tank (fresh water algae cultures) and only plumbed direct to were it needs to go in system. i am aware this will be a complex system that needs constantly monitored and maintained. this is why i am here collecting as much information as possible before i begin. thanks to everyone for your input.

[Paul B]

I won't get into the benefits of water changing but there will be some mechanical problems with this system. The creatures and plants you plan to put in the different tanks will in time occupy all of the tanks. Creatures and plants will never stay where you put them. I am all for natural tanks and mine is probably the most natural tank you will find being started many years ago with NSW and being "dosed" with mud from a lagoon almost weekly in the summer just for mud. Amphipods and copepods are added all year and the tank is filled with tiny tube worms. There is very little store bought anything in my tank except the higher life forms. I also have no use for controllers or dosers and natural food from the sea is used the majority of the time.
It takes a long time for a tank to run naturally and a long time for the correct bacteria to multiply and over run the other types of bacteria that are useless for our purposes.
Your plan sounds good and looks good on paper but I think you will have problems keeping those things seperate. But you could just let them all live in your show tank.

[Aquarist007]

You might get some ideas from this thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1540422

[Jimbo530]

at least 40gal of fresh water algae cultures. i add essential minerals and nutrients here during top offs and let them be naturally absorbed into system. fresh water algae is easier to maintain and can safely be fed to marine aquariums. this overflows into a single or several refugiums that have cope pods or other tiny things that need fed and macro algae or LR for them to hide and keep water clean. then these refugiums up to 400gal would run into my display that has a separate series of refugiums and sump in constant overflow and return cycle to maximize water volume and natural filtration. one of these would be a 400gal mangrove refugium and a 400 gal 24 lite LR tank and a 400gal LR 24hr dark tank to keep a 200 gal display healthy. going display- mangrove -dark- lite in series i think would be best.

[Jimbo530]

The one way overflow for adding nutrients and food would not allow for the tanks that are live food cultures to get cross contaminated and help keep the biodiversity high in the display and filter system. the large water volumes should keep all excess nutrients created during nutrient=algae = live food =display=waste=nutrients=algae/mangrove to be removed respectively. i know things always always must be removed and added to keep balance. but why salt and water. water is in short enough supply.

[Jimbo530]

This is still an evolving science and that is why it is so exciting to me. i know there are several who just would say cant be done stick to the book. but who's book yours that guys of sum other guy that thinks you both don't know anything. none of this is set in stone and this is a what would it take kind of question. not asking whats easy or what you think i can do. what would it take to build a system that keeps the maximum bio diversity and natural filtration. i figured start at the beginning with micro algae and work our way up the food chain refugium by refugium to a display then to filter refugiums and physically removable waste like macro algae or mangrove clippings.
i doubt i can actually finance what we imagine a perfect natural feeding/ filter would take. but would like to assemble that information to build as close to it as responsibly possible.
i can get sheet glass locally and will build a few 400 gal tanks and have a 150 gal a 75 and several 40s that can be used for mine. Any one else want to try to think natural?

[Aquarist007]

This is still an evolving science and that is why it is so exciting to me. i know there are several who just would say cant be done stick to the book. but who's book yours that guys of sum other guy that thinks you both don't know anything. none of this is set in stone and this is a what would it take kind of question. not asking whats easy or what you think i can do. what would it take to build a system that keeps the maximum bio diversity and natural filtration. i figured start at the beginning with micro algae and work our way up the food chain refugium by refugium to a display then to filter refugiums and physically removable waste like macro algae or mangrove clippings.
i doubt i can actually finance what we imagine a perfect natural feeding/ filter would take. but would like to assemble that information to build as close to it as responsibly possible.
i can get sheet glass locally and will build a few 400 gal tanks and have a 150 gal a 75 and several 40s that can be used for mine. Any one else want to try to think natural?

All you want to accomplish might be done with a 120 gal long(6 foot)
You then section off each of your compartments or refugiums with baffles. The water flow from one end to the other
No need for all those extra tanks

[tkeracer619]

This is still an evolving science and that is why it is so exciting to me.

Just so you know you have 200+ years of hands on experience responding to your thread. I suggest you listen to them and not try to recreate the wheel or dismiss what they say so easy. After all, you are the rookie.

What you are saying is nothing new except you are over thinking all this. There is no way you can recreate nature in your reef, what you need to be doing is providing a suitable habitat in an enclosed system. They are two separate things.

Currently I have one 360g display, about 1000lbs of live rock, a huge skimmer, a second 360(packed full of rock), a 50g frag system, and a 120g sump. Primarily I run what is called the "berlin method" except I also run biopellets. I still do regular water changes even though I have a few fish and no real demanding corals. The tank looks that much better afterwards.

Your concern for the ammonia cycle is unfounded, it does not need all this extra stuff to function and often I try to steer new reefers into simpler systems. We have all seen many people over the years removed from the hobby by the "cascade" (tubes running everywhere into different systems). KISS often has a place here even if its painful to not go crazy. There is plenty of time to experiment but when starting out you should find examples of systems you would like and duplicate what they have done. Starting out with this crazy adventure from the start to me is unwise. Keep it simple at first. We need more creative people in the hobby and I would hate to see you run into problems on such a complex system that ends on driving you out of it.


The list of elements in water is long and you cannot possibly test them all or dose them individually. Adding this and that through a bottle isn't really the best way to keep these things at the right balances. Dosing ALK, Ca, and Mg along with regular water changes is.

It's not about the money since you are talking about 500g tanks like they are nanos so why not get a high end water changer so you can easily keep the water fresh or look into algae scrubbers as nutrient export?

You need a simpler system to learn the ropes then by all means setup this monster and see what you can pull off. I'll even bring the six pack.

[Subsea]

This is still an evolving science and that is why it is so exciting to me. i know there are several who just would say cant be done stick to the book. but who's book yours that guys of sum other guy that thinks you both don't know anything. none of this is set in stone and this is a what would it take kind of question. not asking whats easy or what you think i can do. what would it take to build a system that keeps the maximum bio diversity and natural filtration. i figured start at the beginning with micro algae and work our way up the food chain refugium by refugium to a display then to filter refugiums and physically removable waste like macro algae or mangrove clippings.
i doubt i can actually finance what we imagine a perfect natural feeding/ filter would take. but would like to assemble that information to build as close to it as responsibly possible.
i can get sheet glass locally and will build a few 400 gal tanks and have a 150 gal a 75 and several 40s that can be used for mine. Any one else want to try to think natural?

Jim,
There are many on this hobby forum that think natural. I am not sure what that means to you. If you are seeking technical biochemical advice on natural filtration, Plantbrain would be your best source.
I have operated a 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with a 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom. The first chamber of the mud/macro refugium is bioballs as a wet/dry filter. Activated carbon is a must. This system has operated for 12 years with zero water changes and zero protein skimming.
Your system design seems more complicated than it needs to be. What is your goal?
Patrick

[Nano sapiens]

Over many years of both fresh and saltwater, I have found that the simplest solution is often the best. Having a whole slew of tanks plumbed together is interesting, but the question I'd ask myself first is what am I trying to achieve with all this complexity and is it all really necessary to maintain a thriving reef tank?

If you look at the oldest thriving and successful systems carefully, you'll notice a consistent theme of 'more biology, less technology and complexity'. Meaning once the reef tank's biological cycles are fully understood (carbon, nitrogen and phosphate) the simple solutions to maintain balance become more clear.

[whosurcaddie]

This is still an evolving science and that is why it is so exciting to me. i know there are several who just would say cant be done stick to the book. but who's book yours that guys of sum other guy that thinks you both don't know anything. none of this is set in stone and this is a what would it take kind of question. not asking whats easy or what you think i can do. what would it take to build a system that keeps the maximum bio diversity and natural filtration. i figured start at the beginning with micro algae and work our way up the food chain refugium by refugium to a display then to filter refugiums and physically removable waste like macro algae or mangrove clippings.
i doubt i can actually finance what we imagine a perfect natural feeding/ filter would take. but would like to assemble that information to build as close to it as responsibly possible.
i can get sheet glass locally and will build a few 400 gal tanks and have a 150 gal a 75 and several 40s that can be used for mine. Any one else want to try to think natural?


If you take anything away from this thread you should be listening to Paul and Randy( not dissing anybody else guys ). You should read randy's reef keeping series. I think you would be surprised at the depth and knowledge in those articles. Everything you need to know is there.http://reefkeeping.com/issues/author/rhf.php

And Paul has one of the most fascinating Tanks I have ever seen or read about bucking almost every trend and kicking but doing it.

Good luck with your tank sounds like it will be very interesting.

[Jimbo530]

I am not trying to dismiss any of your knowledge but i do like to instigate you to get more information out of all of you. i have sum experience and funding and know sum about the hobby and maintain my current set up with regular water changes. but am interested in learning all i can about the natural cycles reefs go threw and ways we may be able to recreate these. The learning stops when you stop asking questions.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand the need to replace vital minerals in the water. these things can be dosed into the water appropriately if monitored.

I think you are oversimplifying this issue. There are not tests available for most such elements, and each commercial ICP test for a single element will cost a lot more than an entire test kit for calcium or alkalinity. That said, it clearly works and there are quite a few people in Europe starting to do so, but it is a big endeavor.


fresh water algae is easier to maintain and can safely be fed to marine aquariums.

Safe, yes. All of the same nutrients as marine algae? No.

[Mark]

It is not an original idea at all. Go read Dynamic Aquaria. Go talk to Morgan at Inland.

No matter how many tanks you link together with different purposes, the entire system will still be very tiny compared to the ecosystems you are trying to replicate. Over time, biodiversity will diminish to competition and lack of immigration. Some trace elements build up, while others get depleted. Eventually you get a strange soup that doesn't resemble anything natural. Some corals will be fine, others will not. Some macrofauna persists, others die out.

[Jimbo530]

My goal here is to learn as much as possible and find the simplest most effective way to embark on my future endeavor. i love plants all the little critters in the live rock and sand as much as fish & coral. i know there are lots of ways to do things. i do not want to remove micro organisms or the foods they need. i would like to study them as well as effect on food chains and water chemistry. i want to know whats in the slime? in ocean water there is a thin layer of algae and micro organisms on the surface that are constantly recycling nutrients and effectively helping fuel the ocean environments. why is this not considered in aquarium keeping?

[Jimbo530]

sum thing else that seems unstudied is sulfur eating bacterias and other things we know happen in the ocean and practical applications of them. i don't have access to the equipment needed to retrieve let alone study deep sea things but i fell it should be done. and applied to help reduce environmental impacts and maybe create a new options for reef set ups allowing even a wider array of responsibly kept animals in marine tanks adding to the beauty and wonder of this hobby.

[Subsea]

My goal here is to learn as much as possible and find the simplest most effective way to embark on my future endeavor. i love plants all the little critters in the live rock and sand as much as fish & coral. i know there are lots of ways to do things. i do not want to remove micro organisms or the foods they need. i would like to study them as well as effect on food chains and water chemistry. i want to know whats in the slime? in ocean water there is a thin layer of algae and micro organisms on the surface that are constantly recycling nutrients and effectively helping fuel the ocean environments. why is this not considered in aquarium keeping?


Who says multilevel nutrient pathways and recycling nutrients are not considered in reef keeping? Perhaps you should read a little on these hobby forums. They are quite a few pHd micro biologist & chemist on these threads.
Patrick

[Nano sapiens]

in ocean water there is a thin layer of algae and micro organisms on the surface that are constantly recycling nutrients and effectively helping fuel the ocean environments. why is this not considered in aquarium keeping?

We can't naturally duplicate such wide ranging oceanic phyto and zooplankton ecosystems in an aquarium. But we can add our own foods.

However, it is possible to encourage benthic organisms in the sand bed and live rock. Refugiums are typically set up for this purpose. Predation is greatly reduced and some organisms drifting into the display tank as well as their larvae add nutrition for the primary consumers.

[Subsea]

sum thing else that seems unstudied is sulfur eating bacterias and other things we know happen in the ocean and practical applications of them. i don't have access to the equipment needed to retrieve let alone study deep sea things but i fell it should be done. and applied to help reduce environmental impacts and maybe create a new options for reef set ups allowing even a wider array of responsibly kept animals in marine tanks adding to the beauty and wonder of this hobby.

No need to go to the deep abyss. Hydrogen sulfide bacteria reside in DSB below the faculative bacteria that perform denitrification chemistry. Facultative bacteria are 100 times more efficient at processing nitrate which is a major issue in reef tanks. Macro algae and micro algae will process sulfur. I observe a thin sulphur line in my DSB. it is dynamic and it responds to the oxygen gradient.
Patrick

[RocketEngineer]

a wider array of responsibly kept animals in marine tanks adding to the beauty and wonder of this hobby.

The reason they are not widely kept is because they are HARD which means a person with 30 years of experience in the hobby, a biology lab and a 10,000 gallon setup has a challenging time keeping them.

I've been in this hobby for 7 years and I'm still very new at all this. When the folks with 20-30 years tell you there are easier ways to get the same result......I listen and try to understand WHY they go simple. Trust me when I say that most of what has happened in this hobby isn't new. Live rock as filtration was around in the 1940s. The main advances I have seen after reading old books and comparing them to today are the lighting options are vastly improved and the pumps are more efficient. When it comes to the biology, nothing has changed because we are trying to duplicate nature and that's the same as it was 60 years ago. We just got smarter about not killing off what we need to have a viable ecosystem in our homes.

[tkeracer619]

Micro life is great. There is a bunch of it in our tanks, most of it good, some of it not so good...

You don't need a crazy setup to get this started. I would suggest a 40 breeder, a 4' 120, a 6' 240, or a 6' 360. If you really want to go bigger it starts getting much more expensive. It can be easier to keep a large tanks water chemistry in check however it is also harder to correct it.

How do you plan on presenting this? Would one of the tanks be in a living area and the rest in a basement or dedicated room?

[TopOff]

So many people buy hundreds of dollars of LR to get adequate filtration.


Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective? They're super super porus and would eliminate the need for such a large quantity of LR.

I personally have 50lbs of LR and 2 lbs of bio balls. My tank is thriving. Just the bio balls alone would support 1,000/G. My tank is 250/G.

[usingthejohn]

So many people buy hundreds of dollars of LR to get adequate filtration.


Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective? They're super super porus and would eliminate the need for such a large quantity of LR.

I personally have 50lbs of LR and 2 lbs of bio balls. My tank is thriving. Just the bio balls alone would support 1,000/G. My tank is 250/G.
Where did you order them from?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective?

To support the nitrogen cycle, yes. To support other sorts of life? Sponges, worms etc.? Maybe not.

That said, most of us pick to use live rock in the display because we like the natural look of it. We sometimes end up with extra rock in refugia and such because we acquire more over the years for various reasons, such as to increase biodiversity and such, and can't fit it all into the display. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

sum thing else that seems unstudied is sulfur eating bacterias and other things we know happen in the ocean and practical applications of them. i don't have access to the equipment needed to retrieve let alone study deep sea things but i fell it should be done. and applied to help reduce environmental impacts and maybe create a new options for reef set ups allowing even a wider array of responsibly kept animals in marine tanks adding to the beauty and wonder of this hobby.

Sulfur denitrators are reasonably common. There are many threads on them. :)

[Paul B]

Wouldn't high performance bio media like "marine pure" bio balls or blocks accomplish the same objective? They're super super porus and would eliminate the need for such a large quantity of LR.


No, that is make believe, high tech and will only work great in the short term. If you want to go natural as the OP said, you just need rock and the beneficial bacteria, algae, cyano, pods and everything else that goes with it. I personally add mud from the sea and that's about it. My reef is very old and my theory is that Mother Nature has been doing this a lot longer than I have and she knows whats best. I use no manufactured media or plastic bio balls or bio pellets. Bacteria alone is all you need. If the bacteria in rock is not doing the job, you are not culturing them properly or short circuiting their function with manufactured media. :)

[Subsea]

One reason that live rock and substrates fail to perform in the long term is lack of husbandry: substrate is not cleaned thru vacuming or proper janitors (snails, pods, micro stars and a diversity of worms). Live rock fails to perform in the long term for similar reasons which can mostly be attributed to poor maintenance. This same lack of maintenance will plug up high performance media.

I have used natural systems for as long as Paul, but he is older than dirt and his systems look better.
Patrick

[Paul B]

Just a little older than dirt. :dance:

[Aquarist007]

One reason that live rock and substrates fail to perform in the long term is lack of husbandry: substrate is not cleaned thru vacuming or proper janitors (snails, pods, micro stars and a diversity of worms). Live rock fails to perform in the long term for similar reasons which can mostly be attributed to poor maintenance. This same lack of maintenance will plug up high performance media.

I have used natural systems for as long as Paul, but he is older than dirt and his systems look better.
Patrick
I don't know if it is poor maintenance or the fact that a deep sand bed can't be maintained properly. As Paul has stated previously sooner or later and usually around 7 years all debs seem to fail
If he disagrees please don't ask me to look it up.. That a lot of posts to go through and separate from the Paris Hilton ones

[ktownhero]

Water changes or not, I will tell you that from my experience planted tanks are WAY higher maintenance than even reef tanks. If you have done planted tanks well, then just take the time to educate yourself as much as possible and you'll find reef tanks really aren't all that bad.

If you use lots of live rock and a refugium you essentially end up with a nearly maintenance-free, self-sustaining reef if you keep the stocking light and keep non-demanding corals like softies and the easier LPS.

[rekn]

instead of fighting the "Dreaded water change" find a way to make it easier. set up a 55g brute and have a pump mix the water, then hook up tubing so it pumps into the tank.

I understand you not wanting to hoss water back and forth, its a huge pita.

[Paul B]

As Paul has stated previously sooner or later and usually around 7 years all debs seem to fail

I hate DSBs more than.............More than...........I can't even fathom how much I hate DSBs.

instead of fighting the "Dreaded water change" find a way to make it easier.
I made it easier, I only do it 4 or 5 times a year. But I actually kind of enjoy it, as long as I don't have to look at a dreaded DSB because I really hate those. :furious:

[Aquarist007]

I hate DSBs more than.............More than...........I can't even fathom how much I hate DSBs.


I made it easier, I only do it 4 or 5 times a year. But I actually kind of enjoy it, as long as I don't have to look at a dreaded DSB because I really hate those. :furious:

:lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:
Glad I did not have to look that up

[Aquarist007]

instead of fighting the "Dreaded water change" find a way to make it easier. set up a 55g brute and have a pump mix the water, then hook up tubing so it pumps into the tank.

I understand you not wanting to hoss water back and forth, its a huge pita.

I agree I change one gal a day, add 10 mL of vodka chop up the sea food of the day pour a rum and coke all in one min
And then take a half an hour watching my fish eat and enjoying my rum and coke
:beer:

[Subsea]

I agree I change one gal a day, add 10 mL of vodka chop up the sea food of the day pour a rum and coke all in one min
And then take a half an hour watching my fish eat and enjoying my rum and coke
:beer:

Kudos to good rum.
Patrick

[Aquarist007]

Kudos to good rum.
Patrick

It's got to be captain Morgan spiced rum and a nice big piece of smoked salmon:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Paul B]

And then take a half an hour watching my fish eat and enjoying my rum and coke

I never allow my fish to enjoy my rum and coke. Probably because I drink Harvey Wallbangers and they have a wet bar. :D

[Aquarist007]

I never allow my fish to enjoy my rum and coke. Probably because I drink Harvey Wallbangers and they have a wet bar. :D

They would appreciate the Harvey Wallbangers more then the CApt. M
A dose of carbon and a dose of vitamin C:bounce3:

[Subsea]

I don't know if it is poor maintenance or the fact that a deep sand bed can't be maintained properly. As Paul has stated previously sooner or later and usually around 7 years all debs seem to fail
If he disagrees please don't ask me to look it up.. That a lot of posts to go through and separate from the Paris Hilton ones

As in many things, I have found absolutes don't hold up all the time. I have used DSB with Jaubert Plenum for 40 years. It took Julian Sprung and Charles Delbric 20 years of observation before detailing there use in Reef Aquarium Volume 3, "Science, Art, and Technology". Chater 6 on Filtration describes in detail the science of this method. On another point involved with nitrification and denitrification, these authors refute the hobby assumption that DSB and live rock are required to produce anaerobic conditions required for denitrification bacteria. Micro pores allow nitrification and deitrification bacteria in close proximity of each other. Also, there are denitriication bacteria that were discovered in the late 1990's that do not uptake carbon as in conventional denitrification. The process is called "anammox pathway". In a 4 month test study this past winter, I demonstrated that nitrate was processed by bioballs. At the time of the test, I was at a loss to explain how that could be. I can't tell you the names of the bacteria, I only know that bioballs consumed nitrate. In that test, which had too many variables to be scientific, bioballs exceed live rock in denitrification. Out of 7 media tested bioballs was only exceeded by rock rubble at processing nitrate.
Getting back to DSB. In the last few years, I have maintained simple macro lagoon display tanks that are skimmerless and sumpless. These tanks have maintained all types of coral including SPS. In retrospect, with the exception of growing true marine plants, I doubt that I would use a DSB again, when simpler methods are available. The combination of macro algae and shallow coarse substrate provide powerful and effective biofiltration that is more than adequate for reefkeeping. My friend, Gerald Hesslinger at Indo Pacific Sea Farms has a utube series on Responsible Reefkeeping in which he demonstrates natural filtration with zero water changes. Considering the expensive livestock that goes into our reef tanks, I understand the desire to use all the tools necessary. Each individual that maintains a tank has certain goals. I for one embrace natural systems. Without the bugs, our reefs and earth would be dead.
Viva la bugs.
Viva la difference.
Patrick

[Aquarist007]

As in many things, I have found absolutes don't hold up all the time. I have used DSB with Jaubert Plenum for 40 years. It took Julian Sprung and Charles Delbric 20 years of observation before detailing there use in Reef Aquarium Volume 3, "Science, Art, and Technology". Chater 6 on Filtration describes in detail the science of this method. On another point involved with nitrification and denitrification, these authors refute the hobby assumption that DSB and live rock are required to produce anaerobic conditions required for denitrification bacteria. Micro pores allow nitrification and deitrification bacteria in close proximity of each other. Also, there are denitriication bacteria that were discovered in the late 1990's that do not uptake carbon as in conventional denitrification. The process is called "anammox pathway". In a 4 month test study this past winter, I demonstrated that nitrate was processed by bioballs. At the time of the test, I was at a loss to explain how that could be. I can't tell you the names of the bacteria, I only know that bioballs consumed nitrate. In that test, which had too many variables to be scientific, bioballs exceed live rock in denitrification. Out of 7 media tested bioballs was only exceeded by rock rubble at processing nitrate.
Getting back to DSB. In the last few years, I have maintained simple macro lagoon display tanks that are skimmerless and sumpless. These tanks have maintained all types of coral including SPS. In retrospect, with the exception of growing true marine plants, I doubt that I would use a DSB again, when simpler methods are available. The combination of macro algae and shallow coarse substrate provide powerful and effective biofiltration that is more than adequate for reefkeeping. My friend, Gerald Hesslinger at Indo Pacific Sea Farms has a utube series on Responsible Reefkeeping in which he demonstrates natural filtration with zero water changes. Considering the expensive livestock that goes into our reef tanks, I understand the desire to use all the tools necessary. Each individual that maintains a tank has certain goals. I for one embrace natural systems. Without the bugs, our reefs and earth would be dead.
Viva la bugs.
Viva la difference.
Patrick

IMO keeping a deep sand bed takes a lot of experience which you have Patrick

However new reefers do not and with the given that there are much more suitable and safer methods out there I would not recommend them to a newbie
I had one for 7 years and then it failed.. Thank goodness because I know longer had to listen to Paul tell me it was going to fail::lolspin:
Btw
It failed because of an engineer goby deciding the railroad should go under the reef rather then over it:hammer:

[Subsea]

My goal here is to learn as much as possible and find the simplest most effective way to embark on my future endeavor. i love plants all the little critters in the live rock and sand as much as fish & coral. i know there are lots of ways to do things. i do not want to remove micro organisms or the foods they need. i would like to study them as well as effect on food chains and water chemistry. i want to know whats in the slime? in ocean water there is a thin layer of algae and micro organisms on the surface that are constantly recycling nutrients and effectively helping fuel the ocean environments. why is this not considered in aquarium keeping?

Jumbo,
Several efficient, straightforward techniques have been suggested to you of which a refugium stands out as the most proven with results. For those lofty goals of a purist natural filtration, I strongly suggest you read Chapter 6 titled "Filtration" of Reef Aquarium Volume 3: Science, Art, and Technology". The chapter covers half of the book from page 246-400. If knowledge is your desire than this is a must read. The last paragraph of this chapter deals with the reason that you may have received some heated responses to your OP.

It is titled "Reef Guruism"

We don't know why, but sometimes aquarist treat the various methods as if they were religions and their proponents prophets. We present them here as methods and proponents, explaining the reasoning behind the design and operation, the intent of their proponents and how systems could be improved, where that is possible. Our critical points are not meant to discredit any of the systems or their proponents, but to highlight features of the original philosophy that may need reconsideration, in our opinion. We present all of these systems here because each one teaches something valuable about the creation of a captive ecosystem, and each offers a reproducible technique for successfully establishing a coral reef community in a closed aquarium. As an aquarist, you will develop your own successful technique that may incorporate elements of one or several of these systems.

Enjoy your journey. "Reach for the Stars" or in this case, "The Deep Abyss".
Patrick

[Aquarist007]

Kudos to good rum.
Patrick
Sorry to interrupt. Could you comment on this post
Tks

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23057128&postcount=7

[Kungpaoshizzi]

I saw some valid/opinionated stuff come up.

As to the feat~
The first thought comes to mind, to combat cross contamination on an epic scale (probably a single type of algae or dino), wouldn't you have to start the tanks, at the beginning of the "chain" and then build them up individually, AND THEN link the water to the following tank? But if they're all dependent upon each other, you'll have to fulfill the remaining duties from the other tanks in the chain. But still build them up one by one, slowly decreasing the other duties from the other tanks as they come into existence?

It's a decent concept.
But it might be a lot of work. Essentially it would be great thing, comparable to the Earth itself right!

And then there was humans involved!
Ooooooh! Goodnight everybody! :D
I'm here every Friday!

[Dan_P]

I have cared for fresh water aquariums my whole life and done heavily planted tanks and i guess what you would call wet dry filters with live plants growing out of them to obtain systems with no water changes just top offs. is this going to be possible with a marine tank? what kind of water volumes and how many refugiums will it take to do this?
i figure at least 4 tanks and maybe a large tank or bin to dilute nutrients to safe levels during the time it would take to complete nitrogen cycle.


1st tank is algae cultures were i would add nutrients & top offs to the system this only overflows during top offs
2nd tank is mangrove and crab refugium
3rd tank is live rock with worms cope-pods and other little critters
4th tank is for display of corals and a few small fish and shrimp
5th tank a large area to increase water volume and house the pump will not be displayed or have any viewing ports.
the 2nd to the 5th tank will all be gravity fed overflows linking them in series were a pump returns flow from the last to the first.
will this work?
can this efficiency be reached with large water volumes and appropriate stock?
i appreciate your help.


I like the intellectual adventure you are on! I am often likewise afflicted. I saw the responses you received. It could be tough not to be discouraged.

So, back to your idea. It is a very big idea and your research program might benefit from being broken down into smaller parts, setting up and studying each one separately. I think first hand experience on each mini-ecosystem will show you what will be required to connect each one successfully. You can save yourself some time by reading and talking to experts, but you must also try to connect your sub-systems together, and yes, possibly fail and learn. I don't see any short cuts. It will take many years to work through your ideas, but what an adventure!

So, go ahead experiment, break the rules, but not the laws of nature. That is a waste of time.

[reefgeezer]

So maybe... Grow freshwater algae or even plants like Coontail in your ATO reservoir and maybe add iron, nitrogen, and whatever to help it grow... maybe even have some Apple Snails and a few fish in there... use the ATO to top-off the sump... let a supply pump move water from the sump to a display tank containing corals and fish... let that gravity feed (at least partially) to a dark fuge where sponges, Pods, and small inverts live in a pile of porous rock... maybe that would then flow into a lighted fuge with macroalgae or across an ATS... then flow back to the sump.

Possibly? Think about it... a "Display ATO"! :)

[AquariumNut]

[QUOTE=Jimbo530;23039195]I have cared for fresh water aquariums my whole life and done heavily planted tanks and i guess what you would call wet dry filters with live plants growing out of them to obtain systems with no water changes just top offs. is this going to be possible with a marine tank? what kind of water volumes and how many refugiums will it take to do this?
i figure at least 4 tanks and maybe a large tank or bin to dilute nutrients to safe levels during the time it would take to complete nitrogen cycle.


I set up a fresh water tank with no filtration or waterchanges and had fish snails shrimp and tons of plants had it for a year was a fun experiment . Everything was healthy tons of microfauna it truly was intresting to watch . I didnt feed the fish either cause there was enough life for them