Carbon dosing, what is the mechanism that it works on?

[Crystal Sea TX]

How does carbon dosing work in the tank to lower phosphates and nitrates? I am not interested in how to do it, I am interested in the why does it work. Other systems, thought experiments, bacteria names, chemical break-downs would all be helpful.

[blanden.adam]

The presumed mechanism is based on the premise that organic carbon is limiting to the growth of heterotrophic bacteria in reef aquaria. By dosing organic carbon, you allow more bacteria to grow, and in doing so they consume phosphate and nitrate to synthesize biomolecules. The bacteria are then removed via skimming, taking the nitrate and phosphate with them.

I don't know if anyone knows precisely which bacteria grow, just that they are heterotrophic.

[bertoni]

and

[welcome]

[Crystal Sea TX]

Do you know what role the biomolecules play in the functioning of the bacteria?

I am assuming they aren't using them for energy production, but instead for cellular building?

The assumption is that the hetrotrophs are mostly free floating?

I appreciate your succinct answer on my original post. :)

[Crystal Sea TX]

Thank you bertoni :)

[disc1]

Do you know what role the biomolecules play in the functioning of the bacteria?

I am assuming they aren't using them for energy production, but instead for cellular building?

The assumption is that the hetrotrophs are mostly free floating?

I appreciate your succinct answer on my original post. :)
We are talking about building protein and DNA mostly.

[disc1]

Oh and phospholipids for the membranes as well. Lots of phosphorus used there.

[Aquarist007]

Here is a great thread for you to go through
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

[Crystal Sea TX]

You guys are awesome. :)

One last quick question, is it known if sulfates might be removed in this process?

[disc1]

Surely to some small extent but the amount would be very small an the amount of sulfate in seawater is huge so you won't miss it.

[Crystal Sea TX]

Thank you disc1.

[Electrobes]

A bit of a silly question, but if nitrates or phosphates are limited.. What happens to the Carbon being dosed to the tank? I assume the bacteria can't use it?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Many organisms can build up storage molecules when they have excess food/energy available, but I don't specifically know what happens in reef.

I do expect that as the concentrations rise, more and more creatures take advantage of it. It is not just bacteria. many higher organisms can take it up, such as corals and possibly algae. Certainly, cyanobacteria is another concern.

[Electrobes]

A few additional questions: A lot of these Bacteria Regimens (Prodibio and Zeo) tout having a variety of bacteria strains.

Just how true is this claim, do all these strains actually do the job?

Why do they need to be replenished.. Shouldn't they replicate in the tank?

Is the idea of monoculture bacteria in our tanks actually real?

[bertoni]

Someone did a test of one of the products, and it did contain live bacteria or viable spores. As far as the number of strains, the count might be accurate, and they might all do something, but since the strains generally aren't listed, as far as I've seen, it's hard to be sure. Maybe I should do some more research on the claims currently made.

As far as the "monoculture" idea, one strain of bacteria in theory might dominate a step of the processing of dissolved nutrients in our systems, but I think that's irrelevant. As long as the waste is processed, that's good enough.

[Electrobes]

Someone did a test of one of the products, and it did contain live bacteria or viable spores. As far as the number of strains, the count might be accurate, and they might all do something, but since the strains generally aren't listed, as far as I've seen, it's hard to be sure. Maybe I should do some more research on the claims currently made.

As far as the "monoculture" idea, one strain of bacteria in theory might dominate a step of the processing of dissolved nutrients in our systems, but I think that's irrelevant. As long as the waste is processed, that's good enough.

I am curious about this as Randy has kinda re-ignited my curiosity about the whole "Know what you are putting in your tank". My first and current bacterial regimen is Prodibio, I won two boxes at a Reef Raffle and started using it as more of a preventative.. soon after I started feeding a bit more than normal.

I carried this idea on with my current tank (two month old SPS dominated tank (All Montipora Digi's). With the increased fish load, I started feeding more (Morning include one serving of New Era's flake food and afternoon is a cube of PE Mysis shrimp of which I super wash out with RO/DI water). I am truly unsure if Prodibio is the reason for my generally good water quality (I perform weekly water changes, substrate vacuum, use a very strong skimmer, etc), but given that I still have a supply of their product, I figure I should keep using it.

My real aim of this curiosity is whether I should dump Prodibio and simply dose vinegar. If the "other" bacteria strains within Prodibio aren't really needed, I figure I shouldn't spend the extra money dosing things that aren't quite necessary.

By coincidence, I have a doser with one pumphead left to use. Though dosing Prodibio is pretty simple, simply adding vinegar would be even simpler.

I would love for you (Bertoni) to do more research into it, I am surprised that more research into these products hasn't been done... I can't find much information, let alone discussion, that specifically pokes into the bacterial strains being used, and their functions.

It kinda feels like people readily use a product, hope for the best, and without much actual evidence, assume it's the reason for their tank's success. What really surprises me is how few of us actually test (In this instance) Nitrates and Phosphates and make determinations as to how much should be dosed. I am going to guess that there is no equation or even a vague equation as to how much carbon there is to dose based on the test results of nitrates and phosphates. I'm thinking it more just based on tank size, water volume?

Clearly I am no scientist and I apologize for this! :( I just try to be as accurate as possible when dealing with my tank (Like me dosing ALK, CAL, and MAG via a measured dosing pump versus using Kalkwasser in which evaporation determines dosing.. as opposed to dosing exactly what's needed for the tank. It bothers me a bit that Prodibio can't be "over-dosed" but it can absolutely be done with Zeovit, and the consequences can be pretty catastrophic... I wonder what the major differences are between the two regimens as they both appear to attempt to achieve the same goal.

[bertoni]

I'm skeptical that bacterial additives are all that useful in most situations. Certainly, many people dose vinegar and vodka successfully without adding any bacteria. In general, most microbes will show up if the environment is right for them to grow. It's possible to shift the population with continual dosing, but I don't know what the purpose might be when using carbon sources like vinegar.

[Electrobes]

Okay.. I am doing some brainstorming to help spice up discussion, so please bear with me a bit.

I wonder if these bacterial strains (Or even the main one, if that's what it actually is in our tanks) ONLY do well when given that good environment. Maybe once said environment is gone, if either carbon, nitrates, or phosphates suddenly becomes limited (i.e. the bacteria's job is done for the moment) the bacterial population crashes hard and fast. It shouldn't be too big of a problem for the tank especially as all these regimens suggest having a pretty decent skimmer, and the bacteria seem to not have as drastic effect on a reef tank versus suddenly higher nitrates and phosphates.

With the diminished bacterial population, and when nitrates and phosphates creep up... those that only dose a carbon source have to wait as the bacteria population creeps up to consume all three (carbon, nitrates, and phosphates). This would take more time versus...

...Those with bacteria regimens that suddenly introduce a population of bacteria on top of carbon, which more quickly deals with the rising nitrates and phosphates. I assume this method more quickly deals with the problematic parameters, thus giving results more quickly? Maybe even to the point of solving the reefer's woes before it has a chance to affect the corals?

If that were the case (And Lord knows considering the sheer lack of evidence of this thought/theory) that would make the Bacteria Regimen more appealing given faster results versus just dosing a carbon source... or nothing at all.

This all gets confounded when you then try adding all other questions and info like the supposed fact that the bacteria consumes nitrate in proportion to phosphate 15:1. This makes each reefer's situation even more unique as feeding fish and corals can change in an instant with each of us. It makes sense when new reefers immediately jumps into a bacteria regimen and failing. New reefers tend to be more erratic when it comes to feedings of any kind... giving very varied outcomes and parameters.

My brain hurts. I am not a smart man. :lol:

[Electrobes]

Some lame (And very simple-minded) showing of what I am thinking:

The following two situations assumes a steady and consistent carbon source dosing (Vinegar/Vodka... I don't know if Biopellets can be included as it supposedly only degrades as it's being consumed by bacteria...):

Just carbon dosing, no bacteria added (Noticeable Nitrates and Phosphates):
Add carbon source--->Bacteria population slowly increases to meet supply of all three--->One or more of all three goes down to where it cannot sustain bacteria population--->Bacteria population diminishes slowly

Just carbon dosing, no bacteria added (No noticeable Nitrates and Phosphates):
Add carbon source--->Bacteria population does not increase as it's limited in it food sources--->carbon source keeps increasing possibly fueling other things good and bad.


The problem I have is showing a bacteria regimen representation as they would all be different. I'll just make a Prodibio guess here:

Add both bacteria and carbon source (Into water with noticeable Nitrate and Phosphate levels)--->bacteria population goes from currently stable to exploded--->Bacteria consumes food sources until one or more becomes too limited to sustain population--->Bacteria population crashes and waits to be uptaken by skimmer or other exporting method.

Add both bacteria and carbon source (Into water with one or more no noticeable parameters)--->Bacteria population explodes with addition of bacteria--->Nothing happens, bacteria population crashes and eventually gets uptaken by skimmer or some other exporting method.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One or more of all three goes down to where it cannot sustain bacteria population--->Bacteria population diminishes slowly

FWIW, I don't think my tank gets to the point where bacteria cannot grow. I am not trying for a ULNS tank. Even macroalgae continues to thrive.

I just use vinegar as one leg of the many legged stool of nutrient export. :)

[Electrobes]

Randy - That's actually good news for me as I'd like to do the same for my tank. I guess there is no real alternative other than to test for Nitrates and Phosphates to help determine Vinegar dosage to the tank.

The hard part in my eyes is to make a sort of formula/equation based on the test results. Thankfully, I feed exactly the same day to day, so my dosage should be fairly consistent, making it easier to determine. I just think dosing based on tank size/Water volume is too generalized and could lead to trouble down the road.

With all that said, which test kits do you Chemists like best for Nitrates and Phosphates?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I actually never measure them. I judged my dose based on what seemed to work for the tank by eye. :)

[Electrobes]

Darn it Randy! How am I supposed to sound all smart to my fellow reefers if I don't throw out numbers with lots of decimals at them!?

[Aquarist007]

I prefer Salifert test kits for nitrates and phosphates.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Darn it Randy! How am I supposed to sound all smart to my fellow reefers if I don't throw out numbers with lots of decimals at them!?

You can still do that. They'll never know. :D

[bertoni]

I do it all the time. :)

[Aquarist007]

Anyone else going to confess :lolspin::lolspin:

[Electrobes]

:lol: