Don't know where to turn... Very frustrated

[tmb22]

Maybe I have a pride problem, but I never wanted to start a "help me" thread. I prefer to glean knowledge by lurking around this forum and using it on my tank as I see fit. But lately, I see no other option than to reach out directly to you all for advice.

I apologize - this is going to be quite the long read.


Context:
8 months ago, I moved from Grand Rapids, MI to Chicago. While in Grand Rapids, I ran a successful 55 gallon SPS reef. I was happy with the colors and the growth of the SPS in that tank. I had everything down to a science. I kept things as simple as I could, and performed 20% water changes every week. After moving to Chicago, I upgraded to a 90 gallon tank. That tank was set up in March, so 6 months ago. In one exhausting trip, I moved all my inhabitants from the tank in Grand Rapids to the tank in Chicago. Ever since then, I have employed exactly the same methods that I used with my 55 gallon tank - but things just aren't the same.


Problem:
The main problem is that the SPS colors are just not there in the 90 gallon tank. I don't understand how the same exact technique used in one tank, which led to vibrant colors and growth, can't produce the same results in another tank.

-Some corals exhibit pale coloration (indicating low nutrients)
-Other corals exhibit brown coloration (indicating high nutrients)
This, in and of itself has me perplexed. It doesn't make sense to me.

Cyano has always, and I mean always been a problem for me. Even with the 55 gallon tank. I'd say I've had cyano in patches on the sand for 3 years or so. It's just never left. There is hardly any other algae in the tank. But even with cyano, I still had great SPS colors in my 55 gallon tank. Every week, I siphon out as much cyano as I can from the sand bed and rocks. It reappears consistently every week.

I'm getting nit-picky here, but my German Blue Polyp acro used to have beautiful glowing blue polyps in my 55 gallon tank in Grand Rapids. Now, blue polyps exist only on new growth. All the rest of the polyps are dark blue to brown.

I've noticed generally more polyp extension, but some of the acros that have this long extension are very pale, while others are browned out a bit.

I'm so frustrated that I can't figure this out. It baffles me that I was able to keep healthy and colorful acros consistently in my 55 gallon, but no longer in my 90 in Chicago.


Equipment/Feeding:

Tank: 90 Gallon Marineland Corner Flow (Manufactured in 2012)
Protein Skimmer: Reef Octopus 160 XS (skimming somewhat dark liquid skimmate)
Lighting: ATI Powermodule, 6x54 watt. Use same bulb combo as the 55 gallon. All bulbs are new in the last 2 months.
Flow: 2 Vortech MP10's, and 1 Vortech MP40, all on reefcrest mode @ 100%
Chiller: Arctica 1/3 HP
Alk and Cal: I dose 2 part from BRS with dosing pumps hooked up to RKE
RO/DI: BRS 5 stage plus
GFO & GAC: I used to run it on my 55 gallon, but stopped for a long time. I didn't use either GFO or GAC on my 90 until about 2 months ago, thinking this might help with my coloration issue. I use BRS granular ferric oxide and BRS ROX for GAC.
Feeding: I feed frozen PE mysis shrimp exclusively once or twice per day. I did the same for the 55 gallon.


Parameters:
Salinity: 1.025 using Hannah electronic refractometer
Alkalinity: 8-9
Calcium: 450
Magnesium: 1300-1500
Temperature: 78 - 81
Phosphate: 0.03 - 0.04 on Hannah Phosphate Checker
Nitrate: 0.00 - 0.02 on Salifert Nitrate test
TDS: 0. Bought new (same type) RO/DI unit when I moved to Chicago. The old one shattered when left overnight in a freezing car.


Livestock:
Blue Tang
2x Clowns
2x Lyretail Anthias
Copperband Butterfly
Blue Damsel
6 Line Wrasse

Green Slimer
Pink Millepora
German Blue Polyp
Paletta Pink Tip
Shades of Fall
Birdsnest
Montipora Capricornis
4 Unknown acros


Pests:
I had red bugs about 2 years ago in my 55 gallon, but I eradicated them with Interceptor. I've never had AEFW, and haven't purchased a new coral in over a year.


Husbandry:
I do a 20% water change every week with Reef Crystals salt. It consists of:
-Cleaning the skimmer cup
-Taking the Vortech's off and cleaning them individually with a toothbrush
-Scraping all sides of the tank with a magnet and razor blade
-Cleaning the overflow with a toothbrush
-blowing off all corals and rocks with a turkey baster
-Stirring up the sand bed
-Siphoning out all the algae, detritus, and cyano that I can
-Replacing siphoned water with 1.025 saltwater, mixed for 24 hours prior to the water change



My thoughts:
-This sounds crazy, (and no offense to fellow Chicagoans) but I've never seen a totm worthy SPS dominated tank in Chicago online or in person. Not even close. Maybe it's just my poor researching, but you'd think with 2.7 million people living here, someone is up to the task. It's crossed my mind that something is literally in the water here. I'm not talking about the suburbs of Chicago, but talking within city limits, getting city water. Of course, I'm not a chemistry major, and perhaps with an RO/DI unit, there is no way anything could get past it.

-With my cyano problem, I tend to think my system is nutrient rich. But this doesn't explain the corals with pale coloration. Also, phosphate checks are around 0.03 to 0.04. Although, this is a reading while cyano could be taking up a lot of the readable phosphate in the water.

-I could need a skimmer upgrade for the higher water volume, but my nitrates are 0.00 to 0.02.


Pictures:
Here is a comparison of a few corals I'd like to show from the 55 gallon tank, and the same coral now in the 90 gallon tank.

55 Gallon:
http://i.imgur.com/8fJlTZb.jpg


Now in the 90 Gallon:
http://i.imgur.com/JPgqypD.jpg


55 Gallon:
http://i.imgur.com/oB6n9QQ.jpg


Now in the 90 Gallon:
http://i.imgur.com/0jqub6A.jpg


55 Gallon:
http://i.imgur.com/QraARMj.jpg


Now in the 90 Gallon:
http://i.imgur.com/C9ZT6eL.jpg


I appreciate any and all help. Also, a serious congrats if you read all of this :celeb3:

[Reefvet]

-Some corals exhibit pale coloration (indicating low nutrients)
-Other corals exhibit brown coloration (indicating high nutrients)
This, in and of itself has me perplexed. It doesn't make sense to me.

You had a balanced reef and when you moved it you set the inhabitants back. Bacteria levels dropped and corals are displaying their discomfort in a range of ways. Sounds normal to me.


GFO & GAC: I used to run it on my 55 gallon, but stopped for a long time. I didn't use either GFO or GAC on my 90 until about 2 months ago, thinking this might help with my coloration issue. I use BRS granular ferric oxide and BRS ROX for GAC.


Stop the GFO and I'll bet you'll see some changes. That's the biggest change you made. Your phosphate levels are very low, enough to brown out a few corals.

I didn't read the whole thing. No need to. Symptoms are typical of an established tank being upscaled and the balance being lost.

[Reefvet]

-This sounds crazy, (and no offense to fellow Chicagoans) but I've never seen a totm worthy SPS dominated tank in Chicago online or in person. Not even close. Maybe it's just my poor researching, but you'd think with 2.7 million people living here, someone is up to the task.

Find a local club. There are probably several, check here on RC. I'm sure there are many amazing reefs tanks in the windy city.

And unless your RO/DI has a bad membrane or needs DI cartridges the water's fine.

[Reefvet]

Make some friends here. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180)

Any club form that has a "Pay it forward" thread stickied at the top has to be a good place to start.

[tdb320reef]

They look hungry. Minimize GAC and dose some oysterfeast or AA's.

[rovster]

A few things to check:
1. Chloramines in the local water?
2. Relative placement of corals compared to before? Brown could mean high nutrient OR low light. Pale could be low nutrient OR high light.

Personally I think things look pretty OK. They have an overall starved look if you ask me. Its also still kind of new, and it can take months for a tank to stabilize, and months after that before your corals settle in. I would make sure there are no chloramines, if that is not it, then I would maybe consider adding some amino acids or coral food (AcroPower, Pohls, Coral Vitalizer, etc.)

[PL-Reef]

Your basically starting from scratch. New tank syndrome. Your corals went from an established system into a new one. It will take a while for your new system and bacteria to stabilize. I've had issues with browning corals because of super low P04.
Give it some time and I'm sure your tank will be back to its former glory.

[gdemos]

Inhabitants same but likely some sand new maybe some new rock I imagine? New sump? And u state light is 6x54w power module. That's a strong light. Same fixture or new? Same fixture height? Photoperiod? Bulb config is one thing but these other factors can certainly add up. Hang in there

[brad65ford]

A few things to check:
1. Chloramines in the local water?
2. Relative placement of corals compared to before? Brown could mean high nutrient OR low light. Pale could be low nutrient OR high light.

Personally I think things look pretty OK. They have an overall starved look if you ask me. Its also still kind of new, and it can take months for a tank to stabilize, and months after that before your corals settle in. I would make sure there are no chloramines, if that is not it, then I would maybe consider adding some amino acids or coral food (AcroPower, Pohls, Coral Vitalizer, etc.)

Good advice, I also recommend Fuel if your system need nutrients.

[tmb22]

You had a balanced reef and when you moved it you set the inhabitants back. Bacteria levels dropped and corals are displaying their discomfort in a range of ways. Sounds normal to me.




Stop the GFO and I'll bet you'll see some changes. That's the biggest change you made. Your phosphate levels are very low, enough to brown out a few corals.

I didn't read the whole thing. No need to. Symptoms are typical of an established tank being upscaled and the balance being lost.

Thanks for the replies, Reefvet. Makes sense about the balanced reef becoming unbalanced. To clarify, these bland colors have persisted for 6 months now. Only very recently did I incorporate GFO and GAC to see if there is a change for the better. Also, phosphate levels are decently low (0.03 - 0.04) but I still have gobs of cyano appearing regularly every week. Wouldn't this, combined with browned corals = higher nutrients?

Find a local club. There are probably several, check here on RC. I'm sure there are many amazing reefs tanks in the windy city.

And unless your RO/DI has a bad membrane or needs DI cartridges the water's fine.

I was a member of a reef club in Grand Rapids, but I think it's time to find one here in Chicago as well. Thanks for the tip.

Make some friends here. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180)

Any club form that has a "Pay it forward" thread stickied at the top has to be a good place to start.

I've poked around there a bit. Seems like a cool place. Thanks for the link.

They look hungry. Minimize GAC and dose some oysterfeast or AA's.

Thanks for chiming in tdb. I'm a fan of your reef. Can you elaborate on the decision to minimize GAC? I was thinking the same thing due to STN it can cause, but I'm curious to hear your rationale. Also, I believe you have a better eye than I do for when corals are hungry vs. when they are experiencing a nutrient spike - but with the browning out of corals going on here, and the surplus of cyano combined with a phosphate reading of 0.04, do you really think they're hungry yet? I don't want to take a few steps backward and increase this brownout.

A few things to check:
1. Chloramines in the local water?
2. Relative placement of corals compared to before? Brown could mean high nutrient OR low light. Pale could be low nutrient OR high light.

Personally I think things look pretty OK. They have an overall starved look if you ask me. Its also still kind of new, and it can take months for a tank to stabilize, and months after that before your corals settle in. I would make sure there are no chloramines, if that is not it, then I would maybe consider adding some amino acids or coral food (AcroPower, Pohls, Coral Vitalizer, etc.)

Thanks for the reply rovster. Excellent questions. I'm not sure what the answer is to your first question, but I plan on checking with the Chicago forums/Chicago water treatment plant. If this is the case, I'll have to pick up an extra stage to my RO/DI unit to get rid of the chloramines.

As for your question #2, the corals are in the exact same spot as before, since they are all encrusted onto rock, and the rocks have been placed in the same spots as before. I have the ATI powermodule sitting about 5-6 inches above the surface of the water on my 90. The light was about 7 or 8 inches above the water level on my 55. I'm guessing the PAR that reaches the coral is about the same. Thanks for the tip about coral food. Looks like that's starting to become the answer of choice.

Your basically starting from scratch. New tank syndrome. Your corals went from an established system into a new one. It will take a while for your new system and bacteria to stabilize. I've had issues with browning corals because of super low P04.
Give it some time and I'm sure your tank will be back to its former glory.

Thanks for the reply. I've thought the same thing. But lately I've just been thinking that 6 months should have been long enough for things to stabilize. Maybe I'm wrong. I plan on taking any plan of action very slowly. I'm not a fan of changing too many things, too quickly.

Inhabitants same but likely some sand new maybe some new rock I imagine? New sump? And u state light is 6x54w power module. That's a strong light. Same fixture or new? Same fixture height? Photoperiod? Bulb config is one thing but these other factors can certainly add up. Hang in there

New sand indeed. Same rock, sump, light fixture, and photoperiod though. I did lower the fixture just slightly, but that's to compensate for the taller tank dimension. Thanks for the encouragement... I don't plan on giving up anytime soon haha, that's for sure. I'm too stubborn.

Good advice, I also recommend Fuel if your system need nutrients.

Thanks for replying. That's the thing though... I have cyano problems that return heavily every week in addition to a 0.04 phosphate level reading. This combined with corals browning tells me I have a nutrient spike, and not a nutrient deficiency. If I'm adding nutrients, aren't my algae problems going to get worse?

[tdb320reef]

Thanks for the replies, Reefvet. Makes sense about the balanced reef becoming unbalanced. To clarify, these bland colors have persisted for 6 months now. Only very recently did I incorporate GFO and GAC to see if there is a change for the better. Also, phosphate levels are decently low (0.03 - 0.04) but I still have gobs of cyano appearing regularly every week. Wouldn't this, combined with browned corals = higher nutrients?



I was a member of a reef club in Grand Rapids, but I think it's time to find one here in Chicago as well. Thanks for the tip.



I've poked around there a bit. Seems like a cool place. Thanks for the link.



Thanks for chiming in tdb. I'm a fan of your reef. Can you elaborate on the decision to minimize GAC? I was thinking the same thing due to STN it can cause, but I'm curious to hear your rationale. Also, I believe you have a better eye than I do for when corals are hungry vs. when they are experiencing a nutrient spike - but with the browning out of corals going on here, and the surplus of cyano combined with a phosphate reading of 0.04, do you really think they're hungry yet? I don't want to take a few steps backward and increase this brownout.



Thanks for the reply rovster. Excellent questions. I'm not sure what the answer is to your first question, but I plan on checking with the Chicago forums/Chicago water treatment plant. If this is the case, I'll have to pick up an extra stage to my RO/DI unit to get rid of the chloramines.

As for your question #2, the corals are in the exact same spot as before, since they are all encrusted onto rock, and the rocks have been placed in the same spots as before. I have the ATI powermodule sitting about 5-6 inches above the surface of the water on my 90. The light was about 7 or 8 inches above the water level on my 55. I'm guessing the PAR that reaches the coral is about the same. Thanks for the tip about coral food. Looks like that's starting to become the answer of choice.



Thanks for the reply. I've thought the same thing. But lately I've just been thinking that 6 months should have been long enough for things to stabilize. Maybe I'm wrong. I plan on taking any plan of action very slowly. I'm not a fan of changing too many things, too quickly.



New sand indeed. Same rock, sump, light fixture, and photoperiod though. I did lower the fixture just slightly, but that's to compensate for the taller tank dimension. Thanks for the encouragement... I don't plan on giving up anytime soon haha, that's for sure. I'm too stubborn.



Thanks for replying. That's the thing though... I have cyano problems that return heavily every week in addition to a 0.04 phosphate level reading. This combined with corals browning tells me I have a nutrient spike, and not a nutrient deficiency. If I'm adding nutrients, aren't my algae problems going to get worse?

In my 320 reef - 400G volume I run about a .5 cup of Rox in a filter bag. This is enough to keep the water clear without removing critical organics and elements. I have seen issues when running too much carbon and having other issues like Alk swings and UlNS systems that acros pale out and give up.

Regarding Cyano, I have had a few flare ups early in the tanks life-cycle when Id run an ultra low nutrient system removing all of the N03 breaking the C:N:P cycle allowing phosphates to elevate and starving out beneficial bacteria allowing Cyano to proliferate.

Regarding the Cyano issues the solution was easy, minimize the carbon dosing and raise nitrates. With elevated nitrates about 1-2 the beneficial bacteria controls the phosphates and corals are hardier, richer and able to withstand the fluctuation that occur in every reef aquarium. I have not ran GFO on the reef for about a year and phosphates and naturally controlled which measure on average .03 in my system.

Browning out might be a light/stress issue. I have had my nitrates up to 25 and the corals look great, richer without browning out.

[LAX Reef]

BTW, have you thought of adding some bacteria in there? Like the one they sell Micro7

[tmb22]

In my 320 reef - 400G volume I run about a .5 cup of Rox in a filter bag. This is enough to keep the water clear without removing critical organics and elements. I have seen issues when running too much carbon and having other issues like Alk swings and UlNS systems that acros pale out and give up.

Regarding Cyano, I have had a few flare ups early in the tanks life-cycle when Id run an ultra low nutrient system removing all of the N03 breaking the C:N:P cycle allowing phosphates to elevate and starving out beneficial bacteria allowing Cyano to proliferate.

Regarding the Cyano issues the solution was easy, minimize the carbon dosing and raise nitrates. With elevated nitrates about 1-2 the beneficial bacteria controls the phosphates and corals are hardier, richer and able to withstand the fluctuation that occur in every reef aquarium. I have not ran GFO on the reef for about a year and phosphates and naturally controlled which measure on average .03 in my system.

Browning out might be a light/stress issue. I have had my nitrates up to 25 and the corals look great, richer without browning out.

Thank you for the detailed response!

What you're saying about GAC makes sense. I'm running about .5 cups of ROX carbon right now in a reactor. I may cut that in half during the next water change. As far as GFO goes, I'm running about .75 cups of BRS's GFO (not the high capacity stuff). I might cut that in half, or stop running it during the next water change.

Thank you also for the cyano advice. It's been a thorn in my side for several years. I'm going to try to raise nitrates just a bit to hopefully get some beneficial bacteria growing. I'll do this by removing the filter socks and letting the sump get a little dirty. It'll be nice to stop changing out filter socks so often!

BTW, have you thought of adding some bacteria in there? Like the one they sell Micro7

I have thought about it a bit. One thing I'm concerned about with bacteria dosing is making sure the cyano doesn't get out of control. Also, I'm a fan of letting the tank do its own thing, and settling into a rhythm that doesn't have to be sustained by expensive additives. If things continue to be bland/brown, I might take a stab at bacteria dosing.

[Reefvet]

Also, I'm a fan of letting the tank do its own thing, and settling into a rhythm that doesn't have to be sustained by expensive additives. If things continue to be bland/brown, I might take a stab at bacteria dosing.

You 'Don't know where to turn...' but you're waiting for your tank to do it's own thing ?

I think you're well past the point where it's going to find it's own way back to a balanced state.

Stop the GFO and cut the carbon to less than what you have now. Neither of those are helping and they may very well be the primary source of your problems with the corals.

Reseeding with bacteria is a very good idea. It can't have a negative effect. It may very well help and at worst will have no effect.

[tmb22]

You 'Don't know where to turn...' but you're waiting for your tank to do it's own thing ?

I think you're well past the point where it's going to find it's own way back to a balanced state.

Stop the GFO and cut the carbon to less than what you have now. Neither of those are helping and they may very well be the primary source of your problems with the corals.

Reseeding with bacteria is a very good idea. It can't have a negative effect. It may very well help and at worst will have no effect.

Thanks for the insight. You have a good point... I might as well give it a try. It could be a simple solution to what has proved to be a long-term problem.

If I'm going to try using bacteria, I'd like to do it the right way. I'll put some time into researching the best products. Off the top of my head, Prodibio products have been quite successful for other reefers. That could be a top contender.

[tdb320reef]

Thank you for the detailed response!

What you're saying about GAC makes sense. I'm running about .5 cups of ROX carbon right now in a reactor. I may cut that in half during the next water change. As far as GFO goes, I'm running about .75 cups of BRS's GFO (not the high capacity stuff). I might cut that in half, or stop running it during the next water change.

Thank you also for the cyano advice. It's been a thorn in my side for several years. I'm going to try to raise nitrates just a bit to hopefully get some beneficial bacteria growing. I'll do this by removing the filter socks and letting the sump get a little dirty. It'll be nice to stop changing out filter socks so often!



I have thought about it a bit. One thing I'm concerned about with bacteria dosing is making sure the cyano doesn't get out of control. Also, I'm a fan of letting the tank do its own thing, and settling into a rhythm that doesn't have to be sustained by expensive additives. If things continue to be bland/brown, I might take a stab at bacteria dosing.

Run GAC passively in a filter bag. If you are looking for bacteria and its diversification, Find a someone near you with a successful system and buy or trade for a large piece of Live Rock from him/her. Anything dosed like MB7 or Zeobak most likely is immediately out competed by the current state bacterium load and if you read up from the scientist in the Chemistry forum they describe Bactria dosing ineffective for executing the purpose of what it is sold for.

Think of it this way, say you have a box of black ants 1000s of them(current bacterium load) and in that box every day you throw in say 5-10 red ants(Dosing Amount of Bacteria) and subsequently there is only enough food for 75% to survive daily. What are the chances that the red ants will take over? This is the same concept that I am describing with bacteria dosing, however, the scale is much larger and the entire out compete process is happening in seconds or a fraction of seconds upon dosing. Unless there is a steady stream of adding red ants or some type of competitive advantage (adding large piece of live rock for diversification) the dosing effort will be ineffective.