Testing 0 PO4 and NO3 but have alge

[fish maniac]

So I have been in a battle with algae over the past few months........ Not sure what is going on.

I use salifert testing kits and have repeatedly been getting results that indicate that I have 0 PO4 and NO3. My ph stays consistently in the 8.2 to 8.3 range. KH is between 9.9 and 10.2 and my calcium stays right near 400. I use ESV two part for dosing.

My SPS have been OK overall, I recently have a UC "Super Blue" Aussie Vermiculata that has started bleaching. The rest of my corals are doing OK, but I am not getting the growth that I should be, and the coral colors have been kind of blah.

I have a few types of algae; bubble, red slime, hair. I would think that if I actually had 0 PO4 and NO3 in the tank that I would not be having these issues, but can't quite figure out what I am doing wrong. Anyone have any help that they could give me?

[fish maniac]

Forgot to mention that I do use RODI that consistently tests at 0 PPM on my TDS, and I just changed all of the filters on it (again) for good measure........

[marinemanohio]

Several issues here. First off, of you really want to check PO4, get a better test kit. I'd look into a Hanna Phosphate Meter. Salifert kits and others where you just compare colors are difficult since they don't accurately measure low enough, and if you do show some, it's hard to tell the colors apart.

Second, just because you are testing 0 for some nutrients doesn't mean there aren't any. It just means that organisms (namely algae) are using what is being produced. There is still a source feeding them.

Also note that there is plenty of research that says we don't actually want to run our tanks nutrient-free. Our coral needs some to survive...

[bertoni]

In my experience, the Salifert kit is okay, but any kit can fail. I might get a second opinion. The Hach PO-19 kit is good, too, and has been tested for accuracy.

I suspect the algae is consuming the phosphate as quickly as it's released. You could try some GFO. Sometimes, GFO can outcompete algae for nutrients. It's easy to run, in any case. Checking your feeding levels and cleaning and tuning the skimmer are all reasonable first steps, too.

[fish maniac]

Thank you both for the feedback.

I will try another test. My skimmer seems to be working fine. I am collecting a decent amount of waste in the collection cup, but not a ton.

I did start to run GFO and Carbon media last week. So far no results. Things have seemed to have gotten worse.

I run a bare bottom tank with a good deal of live rock. I was thinking that I do not have enough flow through the rocks... Could this cause me an issue?

[tkeracer619]

Bubble algae seems to grow in any environment even void of phosphate. I don't think it has much demand for it. Even pristine natural reefs have it.

Red slime isn't algae, it's bacteria.

Hair algae will use up any free phosphate in the water before your test kit can. Your rock and sand can bind a lot of phosphate, much more than the water can. The algae is taking up the algae from the water as fast as it is released.

It is unlikely that you will get very good tested results with a hair algae problem.

I think we need more info about your system to get to the bottom of it. My first suggestion is to check your source water. Maybe its time for a filter change or a better water delivery setup.

Show us some pics and give us more info about what you feed and your other maintenance routines.

Carbon will remove organics that color the water and smell but it won't really do anything for nitrates/phosphates. GFO is very strong and will remove the phosphates rapidly. It will also deplete rapidly. Getting a hold on phosphates is a big challenge because once the phosphates reach the tipping point to start the algae issues it often takes months to correct. Depending on the system, how long it has been up, and the stock level there are multiple ways to correct it. GFO can be recharged so if the tank is big and has a lot of rock don't get discouraged at the potential bill. FWIW GFO can and will exhaust in hours if the phosphate is present.

[Outrigger Reef]

I run a bare bottom tank with a good deal of live rock. I was thinking that I do not have enough flow through the rocks... Could this cause me an issue?

I just went through what you are describing. I had way too much rock in my tank which wasn't letting enough flow through them. When I pull the rocks out to clean I had way to much junk sitting between the rocks so that help me determine my problem. I pulled out about 30lbs. Had 90 lbs in a 90 DT.

Just something to look for.

[bertoni]

What is the total flow in the tank?

If the skimmer is working as well as it can, the tank might need more filtration, such as a better skimmer or more live rock, or less feeding.

[Aquarist007]

I think two things are going on here
The leaching of phosphates from the rock supporting the hair algae

Low nutrient/ bacteria level through skimming and running Gfo / carbon causing the bleaching of SPs corals

I would suggest you stop running the Gfo/ carbon and monitor. I would dose some trace elements and amino acids for the corals.

I would carbon dose with vodka to increase bacteria in the tank. Even though you have unmeasurable nitrates and phosphates feeding will introduce some and support the carbon dosing

Is it hair algae or bryopsis which I suspect more. If that is the case increase magnesium to 1600ppm and it will kill it

[Easttuth]

Have you considered using an algae scrubber? I've just started but it seems to make perfect sense to me

[fish maniac]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Working on a few things now.

Increasing my magnesium levels.
Vodka dosing.
Turned off the GFO.

I will let you know how things are going.

[Aquarist007]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Working on a few things now.

Increasing my magnesium levels.
Vodka dosing.
Turned off the GFO.

I will let you know how things are going.

Btw
You have to use Tech M and raise magnesium to 1600 ppm.
There is some impurities in the TechM product that kills the bryopsis

[Saltliquid]

Always get a second opinion, as in use other test kits and not just one type, when you are suspicious!!
Run some algae and cyano externally, and as you have been told dose some extra mag, also set up a reactor with standard nitra guard and carbon as you are already using I suppose, then take out the rock if it is hair algae and sterilise it or the only creature that will effectively wipe out hair alga are the sea hair nudibranchs. But the naturally occurring metals your algae up takes will eventually kill it. Also when trimming the algae as it imports and you export its contents by throwing it away, don’t do that! The trimmings, put in a stocking bag and place in a bowl of RO water and micro wave it to near boiling, then pore that water into your sump a bit each day till its all in and hang the bag in your water in your sump after micro waving it and that is a fantastic form of carbon dosing1 From that there is extra nitrogen added to your waters and the nitrates that they come from is being taken care of by your bio system as is the extra phos with the help of nitra guard. That’s what I do and the results are amazing and simple! Algae and cyano are the building blocks for all life in and out of the ocean, no mater what you do they will be there somewhere, you just need to control them by having them externally so they re in your water but can’t be seen, you will never completely get rid of these, if you could your tank will be void of all life!

[fish maniac]

Someone asked for photos of my setup. Keep in mind that my house is built on a rock and we have a short basement space, so I am limited on what I can do.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/mattclaypool/WaterChange2.jpg (http://s88.photobucket.com/user/mattclaypool/media/WaterChange2.jpg.html)

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/mattclaypool/Sump2.jpg (http://s88.photobucket.com/user/mattclaypool/media/Sump2.jpg.html)

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/mattclaypool/Sump1.jpg (http://s88.photobucket.com/user/mattclaypool/media/Sump1.jpg.html)

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/mattclaypool/9_22_14-Copy.jpg (http://s88.photobucket.com/user/mattclaypool/media/9_22_14-Copy.jpg.html)

I run two MP60s and an MP40 on the display and my return pump is an Iwaki MD70RLT for my return from my sump, so flow should not be an issue.

[Aquarist007]

Wow that's some setup. Thanks for posting

[Bryopsis]

I would probably turn down the flow of the GFO to a trickle, not turn it off.
It could very well be a combo of the algae and gfo that's causing the bleaching..

Manually remove all you can for sure. Otherwise it'll just take time to leach from the rocks.

There's a lot of conjecture as to what RTN IS. I've seen a couple detailed articles confirming what I've suspected over the years, it can be stress, it can be bacterial, it can be pests.

Did you notice it starting when you added/changed the gfo? If not it may be something from where you got it bacterial wise. In which case you want to remove the frag, cut it up with space to spare from the necrosis, maybe a quick h202 dip (not dip; more like, drop it in, swish it, return to tank)

I've found dipping sps in h202 ok as long as it's a quick, no more than 5 seconds, 1:1 tank water:h202 solution.

[Bilk]

Always get a second opinion, as in use other test kits and not just one type, when you are suspicious!!
Run some algae and cyano externally, and as you have been told dose some extra mag, also set up a reactor with standard nitra guard and carbon as you are already using I suppose, then take out the rock if it is hair algae and sterilise it or the only creature that will effectively wipe out hair alga are the sea hair nudibranchs. But the naturally occurring metals your algae up takes will eventually kill it. Also when trimming the algae as it imports and you export its contents by throwing it away, don’t do that! The trimmings, put in a stocking bag and place in a bowl of RO water and micro wave it to near boiling, then pore that water into your sump a bit each day till its all in and hang the bag in your water in your sump after micro waving it and that is a fantastic form of carbon dosing1 From that there is extra nitrogen added to your waters and the nitrates that they come from is being taken care of by your bio system as is the extra phos with the help of nitra guard. That’s what I do and the results are amazing and simple! Algae and cyano are the building blocks for all life in and out of the ocean, no mater what you do they will be there somewhere, you just need to control them by having them externally so they re in your water but can’t be seen, you will never completely get rid of these, if you could your tank will be void of all life!Can you explain this more? I've never heard about this method before.

[Reefvet]

Can you explain this more? I've never heard about this method before.

It only works if you're an Ausie and you're smoking the same stuff this guy is. :eek1:

Remember the bowl swirls in the other direction down there so everything is different.

[fish maniac]

The bleaching started before I began to run the GFO. I noticed that I was getting algae buildup in the tank and that I was having to maintenance the front of the tank on a daily basis............. So I began to run the GFO.

Due to some advice on this thread, I have discontinued the GFO and started dosing vodka to see if that will help. I am on day 5 with no real noticeable results.

My display is a 150 deep, and my sump is a 150 gallon rubbermaid that is pretty full. I am using a berlin style sump with no socks and no live rock. I run a reef octopus classic nwb 200, which is rated for 250 gallons with a heavy load. Is my skimmer not large enough?

[swk]

Skimmer sounds undersized to me. Also, carbon dosing can take a couple months for nitrates to react, even longer for po4

[Saltliquid]

sump with no socks ?

You are a thrill seeker!
Or you have a sock of two or similar else where before external filtration?
If not, time doing this sort of thing will take its toll and your water quality will degrade more and more over time.
We can not run an aquarium like the ocean, the parts per million and areas to trap rubbish will ruin your hobby, by that I mean how good it could have worked out.

[swk]

You are a thrill seeker!

Or you have a sock of two or similar else where before external filtration?

If not, time doing this sort of thing will take its toll and your water quality will degrade more and more over time.

We can not run an aquarium like the ocean, the parts per million and areas to trap rubbish will ruin your hobby, by that I mean how good it could have worked out.


I don't use any mechanical media either. Many of the guys in my area don't use anything either. My water is super clear and I don't build up much detritus.

[bertoni]

I ran tanks for years with no mechanical filtration. I'm not sure why that would cause a problem.

[Aquarist007]

Isn't use of a skimmer a form of mechanical filtration?

[bertoni]

Well, a skimmer actually filtering amphipathic molecules, as a first-order approximation. I usually associate mechanical filtration with choosing by size.

[Aquarist007]

Well, a skimmer actually filtering amphipathic molecules, as a first-order approximation. I usually associate mechanical filtration with choosing by size.

In other words a canister filter or a filter sock

[bertoni]

Yes. :)

[Saltliquid]

Filter wool, or if you use socks of which I do not, I make my own, achieves the cleaning of areas for nitrate reduction and reduced hydrogen sulphide production by not allowing the comfortable housing of overly abundant obligate anaerobe bacterium’s. A skimmer only gets out so much of the waters organics and certainly takes out very little inorganic. So if you use a biological media of any kind to reduce nitrate via anoxic zones and form helpful bio sinks as well, then filter barriers of some kind help take out some of the thrill seeking many hobbyists do not realise they are undertaking. But of course if you have near no load, then it will slowly creep up on you over some years and not be overly noticed. Like global warming, it’s a slow thing but very debilitating once it is out of our control!

[Aquarist007]

Filter wool, or if you use socks of which I do not, I make my own, achieves the cleaning of areas for nitrate reduction and reduced hydrogen sulphide production by not allowing the comfortable housing of overly abundant obligate anaerobe bacterium’s. A skimmer only gets out so much of the waters organics and certainly takes out very little inorganic. So if you use a biological media of any kind to reduce nitrate via anoxic zones and form helpful bio sinks as well, then filter barriers of some kind help take out some of the thrill seeking many hobbyists do not realise they are undertaking!

Could you please explain what you mean by "thrill seeking"

[Saltliquid]

Thrill seeking means to take risks.
Live rock is bad enough as to its porus nature being clogged over time, but if you have bio media set up like a standard unaltered canister filter or substrate or external nitrate reduction media areas like deep sand beds of which I have four in play, then these will be come permeated with rubbish like plankton shells from life and foods and cal particles from foods and algae life cycles along with natural forming metals over the months to years. 6 months or so and its affects you are not usually noticing but they are there, 2 years and its affects are there but you have compensated by carbon dosing ,nitra guard, etc ,etc, or just tolerate it and do more water changes, I don’t do water changes! Now when you disturb that substrate or external anoxic zone, this when you realise your thrill seeking has caused harm. (Thrill seeking), being told its going to go bad by your actions and still doing it.
That’s all.

[Aquarist007]

Thrill seeking means to take risks.
Live rock is bad enough as to its porus nature being clogged over time, but if you have bio media set up like a standard unaltered canister filter or substrate or external nitrate reduction media areas like deep sand beds of which I have four in play, then these will be come permeated with rubbish like plankton shells from life and foods and cal particles from foods and algae life cycles along with natural forming metals over the months to years. 6 months or so and its affects you are not usually noticing but they are there, 2 years and its affects are there but you have compensated by carbon dosing ,nitra guard, etc ,etc, or just tolerate it and do more water changes, I don’t do water changes! Now when you disturb that substrate or external anoxic zone, this when you realise your thrill seeking has caused harm. (Thrill seeking), being told its going to go bad by your actions and still doing it.
That’s all.
Okay thanks. I had that problem 6 months ago when an engineer goby started to dig up in an area that had not been touched in 7 years