New Cycled Tank, 2 of 3 first fish dead

[ccarter]

Hello. I am new to posting here, but I've been reading from these forums for a while trying to figure out how to go about getting started with a tank.

I set up a 50g breeder tank with about 55-60 lbs of dry rock and a 2.5 inch "dry" sand bed. The sump is DIY from a 20g "tall" tank. It has a Reef Octopus skimmer, and a foam air filter that I've been seeding for a QT. As of right now there is now refugium any natural nitrate export method - just water change. The tank ran with no inhabitants for 1 month and 5 days before I added the first fish. At the start of that month I used Dr. Tim's One and Only to seed the tank, and dosed 55 drops of Dr. Tim's Ammonium Chloride (the dosage to reach 2 ppm of ammonia). The greatest spike in ammonia I ever saw was .5 ppm during the first 24 hours, but it reduced quickly to zero and stayed there. Nitrites increase about a week later and stayed above the top end of my API test range for about 23 days. During that time nitrates rose steadily. When ammonia and nitrites were zero, I dosed the tank with 40 drops of ammonium chloride. I saw a 0.25 ppm spike in ammonia for less than 24 hours, and nitrites rose to 5 ppm for about 3 days. Once ammonia and nitrites were at zero again the nitrates were at 40 ppm. I did a 30 gal water change and brought the nitrates down to 10 ppm, and considered the tank cycled.

I bought 3 blue/green chromis (2 were about 1 inch in size, the third was somewhat smaller). When I brought them home I dumped them and their store water (about 1/2 of a quart of water) into a 2 gal bucket, and started a fine mist air stone. I used a drip acclimator to fill the bucket all the way up over the course of 3 hours - several drops of water per second, but still somewhat slow. Once the bucket was full with 2 gals of water I added the "dip" dosage of Seachem Paraguard, and let them swim in that for 50 mins. while I monitored them. None of the fish had any noticeable problems with the dip. They were timid, but no other symptoms. I after that I netted each fish into the DT. They all hid in the rocks immediately. The two larger ones hid together, the smaller one alone at the opposite end of the tank. No one ate for the first 2 days. By the second day the smallest chromis would come out and swim a little if I didn't get close to the tank, and might have eaten one or two pellets of Ocean Nutrition Formula Two. The other two would not eat, one stayed in the other back corner of the tank but exposed while the other hid continuously in the rocks near the other large one. Around 9 am on day 3 the smallest was swimming upside down, and it deteriorated to being pushed around by the powerhead. I netted him out into a small pale when he got caught against the overflow weir, and he passed about 30 mins later. I examined him and found no ich spots, and no signs of trauma. I did my best to monitor breathing every day, but it's difficult on small fish. I didn't notice any rapid breathing or anyone near the surface.

At that point I went to see if I could find something that might help these other two survive. I got Kent Garlic XTreme in hopes that it might coax them into eating and getting a little strength, and I got Seachem Stress Guard. I came home and dosed the Stress Guard, and soaked about a teaspoon of Rod's Fish Only bleed frozen food in 2 drops of the garlic. The chromis who had been out, but not swimming seemed to eat of that, but it was hard to tell because I had to stay away for him to be comfortable eating. The other remaining chromis stayed behind the rock. I don't know if he ate any of the food.

That was all day 3. This morning (day 4) the chromis who was out but not swimming, looking healthy, and nibbled on the Rod's food passed. However, while he didn't have any ich spots, he did have what looked like an injury about 3-4 millimeters behind one of his gills. After he died I tried to examine the injury. It was behind his fin. While he was alive it looked like an open wound. Immediately after he died, it looked like it was open. It was about 1 centimeter tall, and was thin like a scrape.

So now I have one chromis in the tank that I can't examine at all because he stays in one spot all the time behind the rocks, and he's in there good and tight. I'm really hoping he doesn't die: it will be sad, and I'll probably have to pull out half the rocks to get to him. I can see him. He is sitting there "treading" in place. If I get close he moves tighter into the rocks. I put a little garlic soaked formula two near him. I won't be able to tell if he eats it, but it's there if he wants it.

So what do I do now? I'm pretty confident my tank was cycled. I watched the spikes. I tested the water 24 hours after the chromis first got introduced, and the readings were 0, 0, and 10-20 ppm nitrates. The readings haven't changed at any time since. I didn't see any ich spots. There aren't any little white dots floating in the water. Does anyone have any suggestions? I have a few concerns about the health of the fish from this fish store as I've seen 3 clownfish from this store die about a month ago in another tank. The first went about 1 week after being purchased and the other 2 went at week 2 and week 3. Those fish weren't quarantined at all, were drip acclimated, but were put in a small 10 gal FOWLR setup, and I don't know about the cycle on that tank, just that it was empty but had live rock and sand. I didn't do a full proper quarantine on these fish as I'm still setting the QT up, but I did do the paraguard dip. I didn't see any signs of ammonia poisoning, and my tests have read 0 ppm ammonia and nitrite at all times since the fish were introduced.

Any help, suggestions, ideas/questions about things I've overlooked would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[ccarter]

Additional info: temp is steady at 79F, salinity is 1.022 read by refractometer, salt is Instant Ocean mixed by lfs in large batch.

[kurt_n]

Can't really say for sure, but the one thing that stands out to me is the 3 hour acclimation, combined with a dip for 50 minutes. That's 4 hours of "acclimation" time, which is quite a long time. Did you note the temp of the water at the end of that acclimation? I'm thinking it was pretty low.

I'm a strong believer in quarantine tanks. You mention you're setting one up, so I'm not sure why you rushed these fish into the DT. With a QT, once you get the fish, you can check the salinity of the bag's water and match your QT salinity to the bag. Then put the fish in once you've brought the bag temp up to the tank temp. No long drip acclimation required. Less stress for the fish. Plus then you get to make sure it's eating and healthy before you put it in your DT.

As far as cycling, sounds like you did everything right and your tank was ready. Salinity is a little low (shoot for 1.025-1.026) but not anything that should kill fish. Temp is OK. You never know... you just might've got some fish that was on their way out, regardless of whose tank they were in. Do you know how long they'd been at the store? If they were recent arrivals to the LFS, they might not have adjusted from their trip there.

But next time, I'd wait until that QT is ready and use it. I'd also rethink your acclimation strategy.

[uncleL]

You will have to take it slow on the cycling process and give your tank a chance to settle. I waited a month adding a 1 peice of good live rock per week from my LFS. I know its a pain but its worth the wait. I also used My 2 clowns NEMO's to finish my cycle. Still adding 1 peice of live rock per week so 8 weeks total until my tank was stable.

[ccarter]

Can't really say for sure, but the one thing that stands out to me is the 3 hour acclimation, combined with a dip for 50 minutes. That's 4 hours of "acclimation" time, which is quite a long time. Did you note the temp of the water at the end of that acclimation? I'm thinking it was pretty low.

I'm a strong believer in quarantine tanks. You mention you're setting one up, so I'm not sure why you rushed these fish into the DT. With a QT, once you get the fish, you can check the salinity of the bag's water and match your QT salinity to the bag. Then put the fish in once you've brought the bag temp up to the tank temp. No long drip acclimation required. Less stress for the fish. Plus then you get to make sure it's eating and healthy before you put it in your DT.

As far as cycling, sounds like you did everything right and your tank was ready. Salinity is a little low (shoot for 1.025-1.026) but not anything that should kill fish. Temp is OK. You never know... you just might've got some fish that was on their way out, regardless of whose tank they were in. Do you know how long they'd been at the store? If they were recent arrivals to the LFS, they might not have adjusted from their trip there.

But next time, I'd wait until that QT is ready and use it. I'd also rethink your acclimation strategy.

Kurt, I hadn't considered the possible temperature drop during acclimation. I didn't want the DT to sit fallow for a month while I quarantined the first inhabitants, and possibly have the bacteria experience too much die-off. I didn't know how long the DT would take to cycle, so I waited a while to start building the QT setup (funds are also tight, so spreading out the expense was necessary as well). I don't know how long they had been in the store. I know the store receives weekly shipments, but I couldn't really get too much info out of the manager beyond that. The store has a great selection of fish and corals, and from what I can tell the corals are always healthy, and there are several that are large and expensive, and have therefore been sitting there for several months. All of the fish tanks are connected, and I know one of the tanks has had about 10 cardinals in it for over a month. I take that to indicate that anything like ich or velvet probably isn't present because it would've wiped those guys out along with a large number of the other tanks too. That is, unless he's low-dosing copper to mask it. These chromis were in a tank with about 10-15 chromis total plus a flame angel. They weren't being bullied by the angel. I watched them for probably half an hour before we netted these three (let's be honest, I was mostly watching the angel and trying to make myself be patient, but I was watching that specific tank).

[Miz40B]

Is it possible to have your LFS test your water? For comparison reasons.
Check your heater/pumps for possible stray voltage.
It is also possible your acclimation process might be to stressful on them. Personally I'd skip the Paraguard dip. (That's just my opinion)
Chromis are usually very hardy fish. This is my reasoning for your process being a bit much. Test the bag water SG. It can't be that much different then your 1.022. If not then cut your acclimation time down by half.

[ccarter]

Is it possible to have your LFS test your water? For comparison reasons.
Check your heater/pumps for possible stray voltage.
It is also possible your acclimation process might be to stressful on them. Personally I'd skip the Paraguard dip. (That's just my opinion)
Chromis are usually very hardy fish. This is my reasoning for your process being a bit much. Test the bag water SG. It can't be that much different then your 1.022. If not then cut your acclimation time down by half.

I did have the lfs check the levels a few weeks ago so make a comparison of my readings to theirs. They got the same results I got. I know sometimes individuals bottles of the testing solutions can have problems. I'm using the same stuff they are: API master saltwater (they have a bigger "store" kit, but it's the same bottles).

How do you check for stray voltage?

So far, other than being extremely timid, the last surviving chromis is doing well. I moved the rocks so I can keep track of him. He's found a new spot he doesn't move from. It's convenient to me because it's in one of the front corners, but I don't know what it says about his health. Is it possible for one chromis to take out the others that quickly, in just a matter of days?

Thank you again for the replies!

[shesacharmer]

The typical recommendation after your cycle is to add your clean up crew and leave them alone in your tank to finish working your sand in readiness for the fish you have in QT. Basically, for the next fish, test the salinity of your bag water, float the bag to keep it warm, match the salinity in the QT and release the fish as quickly as you can. It's best to give the fish three or four days to settle down before treating them for parasites. Make sure they are eating first before upsetting them further. In most cases you can only keep one Chromis successfully long term because they will kill one another but it would be unusual for them to do so so quickly in an unfamiliar environment. I recommend you get some clean up crew and finish your QT before proceeding. You can ghost feed your DT to keep the bacteria levels high.

[thegrun]

I think the key here is that you placed 3 Chromis in a 50 gallon tank. The results were predictable. I'm not saying it is impossible to keep more than a single Chromis in a tank under 100 gallons, but 90% of the time the dominate Chromis will kill off the other Chromis until only one is left. The dominate Chromis will not harm any other tank mates, only other Chromis.

[Jetlinkin]

The four hour acclimation is my biggest suspect. Match temp and salinity, and if you are going to risk no QT, dump em in the tank. When I was young and dumb, and ran without QT, this was all I did. Never lost a fish to acclimation. Got a nasty case of ich in my tank though.

[Miz40B]

Not stray voltage either if the other fish is alive.

[wooden_reefer]

Your dt can be considered cycled but the foam intended for qt likely is not cycled. The drop in ammonia is due to the lr in the dt not the foam having enough bacteria for qt.

It is ok to seed a foam for qt by placing it in dt for a couple of days, but after seeding you should allow bacteria to grow on the foam by cycling it in a separate container. This is the only way to be sure that the foam has enough bacteria.

Qt is not a brief procedure. It should last many weeks. I qt for at least 12 weeks, often longer.

[MinnFish]

I think the key here is that you placed 3 Chromis in a 50 gallon tank. The results were predictable. I'm not saying it is impossible to keep more than a single Chromis in a tank under 100 gallons, but 90% of the time the dominate Chromis will kill off the other Chromis until only one is left. The dominate Chromis will not harm any other tank mates, only other Chromis.

I agree 100%. They are beautiful schooling in the wild. But, in captivity it's a massacre.

[Dan_P]

One possibility is that the fish were not healthy when you bought them. It is a hard one to prove though.

I had it happen with store bought fish and native fish caught in Long Island Sound. You do your best to treat them properly and sometimes stuff just happens.

[Pigpen17]

I am no expert by any means, but I read a lot here. Do you have a photo of the scratch? Uronema has been reported to be very common with Chromis right now.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2437613&highlight=chromis

Hit up the disease forum folks.

[tmz]

A couple of things:

The acclimation process may have exposed them to ammonia toxiciity,as the total ammonia in the bag water shifted proportions from less toxcic ammonium NH4 to more toxic ammonia NH3 as CO2 gassed off and pH rose.


Bleue green chromis (chromis virdis) fight. More often than not 3 or more winds up being one ,particularly in a smaller tank.

There was no quarantine ;so disease is a strong possibility.

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=fish+acclimation+and+quarantine