Powder Blue Tang

[marc gold coast]

Hi guys, i have a 125Gal tank, cycled and all going well with a few croal and i have added a few fish. Clowns, fox face, chromis. all going very well ATM.

I wanted to add a couple of Tangs, and went with the intention of buying a yellow tang and possibly a blue tang. (I knew they are prone to ich.)

i ended up leaving the LFS with a powder blue. after researching i realise i have probably the most prone tang to Ich ever.

My QT wasn't ready so I didn't put him in to QT first ( big mistake) he has been in the main tank for 3 days and appears to be doing really well eating ect. However i noticed the smallest of white dots on him last night. and by morning they were gone. but if you look really really close there is some indentations which look like white dots.

So i am fairly sure he has Ich even if its early on set.

my question is, my QT tank which is now perfect and ready for all new FISH. Should i put him in the QT now and treat accordingly with the copper or salinity methods. or is it pointless now he has been in the main tank, and probably infected the entire tank, if its ich.

I also have a purple tang arriving next week. So i was going to QT him, but am thinking that may be pointless as well.

your thoughts and advice would be truly appreciated.

[lllesley]

I wouldn't QT him now if he is looking clear and eating etc. The stress of the catch & chase wont be worth it to him or to you ! Hope you have done the research on these two tangs as they are both probably some of the most aggressive tangs to buy and keep together. I wouldn't be attempting that in a 125g.
I speak from experience (bad one) new to reefing and not researching properly I also purchase a purple tang to go in a 280g (more than double yours) with a powder blue.
Well PB went so crazy he actually hit the purple tang out of the water on more than a dozen occasions over the next week. Purple couldn't swim anywhere without being beaten to a pulp. On about day 10 the purple had taken enough and started fighting back, it was horrible to watch (both ended up with slices down their bodies from the spears on their tales) and on about day 13 we returned the purple tang to the shop for a credit.. We will NEVER not do our research again, the best chance you had of it working in such a small tank was to introduce them together and similar in size fish. Even then you are taking a risk.
Hope it works for you but I would def reconsider it.
Hope this helps.

[marc gold coast]

thanks for your advice, it does get confusing sometimes. I have done some research which led me to believe that because they were from different families, shape color they should be ok.

What other tang would you recommend instead of the purple.

Yellow
Lipstick
Blue
other

[lllesley]

Lipstick is the biggest of the tangs & will out grow tank very quickly although most peaceful of the tangs dont think they recommend any smaller than a 180g
Yellows are nice fish and would fit well in your tank size, problem being that you have now introduced a very aggressive tang first. The PB should should have been put in after all those other tangs your interested in. Rule of thumb is most aggressive fish last.
Dont panic a yellow could work if PB hasn't gotten to possessive over HIS tank.

Blue is probably alright (ich magnet) but so is the powder. Again will outgrow the tank reasonably quickly.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=15

go to the above link and Look at nature and recommended size and that will help a lot.
My thoughts are Yellow.

[wooden_reefer]

Hi guys, i have a 125Gal tank, cycled and all going well with a few croal and i have added a few fish. Clowns, fox face, chromis. all going very well ATM.

I wanted to add a couple of Tangs, and went with the intention of buying a yellow tang and possibly a blue tang. (I knew they are prone to ich.)

i ended up leaving the LFS with a powder blue. after researching i realise i have probably the most prone tang to Ich ever.

My QT wasn't ready so I didn't put him in to QT first ( big mistake) he has been in the main tank for 3 days and appears to be doing really well eating ect. However i noticed the smallest of white dots on him last night. and by morning they were gone. but if you look really really close there is some indentations which look like white dots.

So i am fairly sure he has Ich even if its early on set.

my question is, my QT tank which is now perfect and ready for all new FISH. Should i put him in the QT now and treat accordingly with the copper or salinity methods. or is it pointless now he has been in the main tank, and probably infected the entire tank, if its ich.

I also have a purple tang arriving next week. So i was going to QT him, but am thinking that may be pointless as well.

your thoughts and advice would be truly appreciated.

The chance that ich will break out in your dt is not low.

Are you ready to combat ich infestation in dt any time soon or later?

You should be prepared.

The major difficulty will be in supporting ALL your fish while your dt fallows for 12 weeks.

Will you be able to process the Ammonia generated as a result of all your fish, their excretion, decay of poop and uneaten food?

You have been doing all wrong. Your chance of success is quite low unless you change your practice.

[marc gold coast]

thanks, I have put all the fish into my QT tank and have begun treatment for ich.

we all make mistakes, and i will just start again. My DT can fellow for 12 weeks, while i treat the Fish. I have also decided to buy a larger tank and will set that up while my DT is following. Could i just empty my DT and re fill with fresh salt water and start a new cycle or would the Ich still be on the Live rock etc.

[lllesley]

thanks, I have put all the fish into my QT tank and have begun treatment for ich.

we all make mistakes, and i will just start again. My DT can fellow for 12 weeks, while i treat the Fish. I have also decided to buy a larger tank and will set that up while my DT is following. Could i just empty my DT and re fill with fresh salt water and start a new cycle or would the Ich still be on the Live rock etc.

I am not an expert on ich but I do believe it will remain in your sandbed. not sure about the rock. some one will chime in i am sure.
I sent you a Private message by the way.

[KAMIKAZE0214]

I am not an expert on ich but I do believe it will remain in your sandbed. not sure about the rock. some one will chime in i am sure.
I sent you a Private message by the way.

I'm running fallow in my DT as well. 12 weeks and the cysts in the sand bed should die. Fingers crossed the research is true!

[tmz]

The after exposure to the infected fish the tank probably has ich or velvet or both . Encysted ich(cryptocaryon parasites) parasites can remain viable up to 72 days and that was in cooler water . I'd move the fish to qt and leave the tank without fish for 72 days. For treatment, tank transfer treatment followed by observation and treatment of other pathogens that may appear as necessary in a cycled qt tank, is what I would do.

Going froward this thread may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=fish+acclimation+and+quarantine

You may also wish to check out the Fish Disease forum.

[ca1ore]

Nothing quite like a powder blue to reveal the presence of ich in your tank. May have come in on the fish; may have already been there. Regardless, you will have to fallow the tank.

[SGT_York]

I wouldn't over react. a PBT WILL have ich, the point is to keep him healthy enough that it never becomes an issue, like humans and the cold, we always have it it is just suppressed by our immune system to never be an issue until something happens and it get's triggered.

If your fish are eating they will be ok, provided you give them a stable healthy environment. chasing and netting fish is very stressful and likely to cause more harm than good.

[wooden_reefer]

thanks, I have put all the fish into my QT tank and have begun treatment for ich.

we all make mistakes, and i will just start again. My DT can fellow for 12 weeks, while i treat the Fish. I have also decided to buy a larger tank and will set that up while my DT is following. Could i just empty my DT and re fill with fresh salt water and start a new cycle or would the Ich still be on the Live rock etc.

If ich infestation has not yet shown in DT, do not remove fish and treat fish in QT.

You should start a cycle for the medium bound for QT, not re-cycle the DT.

You should be prepared to support ALL your fish in QT while the DT fallows for 12 weeks.


Without robustly cycled medium for use in QT, you practically cannot eradicate ich when infestation has already happened in DT.

I suggest that you leave fish in likely infested DT if ich has not already shown.

And, now ASAP start to cycle medium bound for QT (or cycle the QT as many want to say but more accurate is to cycle the medium intended for use in QT.) If properly set up, the medium for QT will be robustly cycled in about three weeks.

If ich does not happen within three weeks in your DT, your ich problem will be more manageable.

[lllesley]

I wouldn't over react. a PBT WILL have ich, the point is to keep him healthy enough that it never becomes an issue, like humans and the cold, we always have it it is just suppressed by our immune system to never be an issue until something happens and it get's triggered.

If your fish are eating they will be ok, provided you give them a stable healthy environment. chasing and netting fish is very stressful and likely to cause more harm than good.

Exactly.

[wooden_reefer]

Exactly.

Exactly wrong

Ich is not a virus.

Enhancing immunity against ich does not help the aquarist or the fish.

The survival characteristics of ich is humility so as not to catch attention.

The ich parents allow 99.9% or more of its offsring to die without finding a host. Enhanced immunity against ich is not a selected trait and is not material in the ocean.

Ich and fish do not go into life and death struggle in the ocean so immunuity enhancement is not a factor in the ocean; would it be in a tank? No.

A tank is a closed system, both pathogencially and chemically. Heavy infestation of ich in a tank is due to its closed nature. The reproductive cycle of ich maximizes the deadly closed nature of the tank more than any other pathogen.

[lllesley]

Exactly wrong

Ich is not a virus.

Enhancing immunity against ich does not help the aquarist or the fish.

The survival characteristics of ich is humility so as not to catch attention.

The ich parents allow 99.9% or more of its offsring to die without finding a host. Enhanced immunity against ich is not a selected trait and is not material in the ocean.

Ich and fish do not go into life and death struggle in the ocean so immunuity enhancement is not a factor in the ocean; would it be in a tank? No.

A tank is a closed system, both pathogencially and chemically. Heavy infestation of ich in a tank is due to its closed nature. The reproductive cycle of ich maximizes the deadly closed nature of the tank more than any other pathogen.
I understand what your saying & obviously you are very educated on this subject. All I am saying is that I feel there is a total over reaction to ich in most cases. In a stable healthy tank there is no reason for it to spread any further. My PB had it and no other fish in the tank showed any signs. My hippo had it and once again tank remained ich free ! I know it is now in the tank but stress free,stable,well feed fish don't generally die from it. I've heArd that the ones that do die from it are the weaker fish anyway & probably wouldn't have survived in the ocean either ? Don't know if that's true or not but panicking is not the answer either ! 15 months ich free now and I am happy with that for now. I might kick myself down the track but will just wait. & see ! Thanks very informative. !

[ca1ore]

I understand what your saying & obviously you are very educated on this subject. All I am saying is that I feel there is a total over reaction to ich in most cases. In a stable healthy tank there is no reason for it to spread any further. My PB had it and no other fish in the tank showed any signs. My hippo had it and once again tank remained ich free ! I know it is now in the tank but stress free,stable,well feed fish don't generally die from it. I've heArd that the ones that do die from it are the weaker fish anyway & probably wouldn't have survived in the ocean either ? Don't know if that's true or not but panicking is not the answer either ! 15 months ich free now and I am happy with that for now. I might kick myself down the track but will just wait. & see ! Thanks very informative. !

Sometimes ich can indeed be 'managed', but for every case that can, there are nine other cases that sweep though one's fish population. I just think for the novice reefer, managing it can be tough. If you can remove and treat the fish, and fallow the tank, I think that is the best approach and has the most predictable outcome. If, on the other hand, you have a large, established reef tank, then perhaps a less 'extreme' approach is worth trying.

[lllesley]

Sometimes ich can indeed be 'managed', but for every case that can, there are nine other cases that sweep though one's fish population. I just think for the novice reefer, managing it can be tough. If you can remove and treat the fish, and fallow the tank, I think that is the best approach and has the most predictable outcome. If, on the other hand, you have a large, established reef tank, then perhaps a less 'extreme' approach is worth trying.
Yes. You are probably right. I forget that I have a low stocked. 280g DT & 100g sump that's easy to keep stable & stress free. Although I am new to reefing (18 months) it has worked for me. I am building a larger set up & am very much expecting an ich breakout with the stress of the move ! Hope I get through it this time too. ! Thanks

[ca1ore]

Yes. You are probably right. I forget that I have a low stocked. 280g DT & 100g sump that's easy to keep stable & stress free. Although I am new to reefing (18 months) it has worked for me. I am building a larger set up & am very much expecting an ich breakout with the stress of the move ! Hope I get through it this time too. ! Thanks

If it works for you, then it works for you! However, if I were moving to a bigger tank, and knew that I had ich in my tank, I would use the move as an ideal time to take the proper steps to eradicate the parasite.

[lllesley]

If it works for you, then it works for you! However, if I were moving to a bigger tank, and knew that I had ich in my tank, I would use the move as an ideal time to take the proper steps to eradicate the parasite.

Trouble with that is this current tank has a new owner waiting patiently for it to become his. We have approx. 2 days after delivery of new to move everything over and give it to him. I would struggle to put all my livestock in a smaller quarantine. 5 tangs 2 dragonets ( need pods ) coral beauty foxface. & flame angel. Cleaner wrasse Need one hell of a QT. ! If you can suggest another way I am happy to look at it though. ? Any suggestions. ?

[tmz]

Proper care and treatment is not an overreaction. There is no good reason to keep a tank with ich when there are effective and safe means to eradicate it.


Proper care and treatment is not an overreaction. There is no good reason to keep a tank with ich when there are effective and safe means to eradicate it. It attacks healthy fish too ;it's deadly in many cases and will linger in a tank fo a year or more ;sometimes without evident symptoms for some fish. Qaurantine and preventative treatment keeps it out . A fishless period kills any remaining in the tank. It's not like a cold ;it's parasites that eat flesh and kill the host.

[SGT_York]

He's got four fish, that he drug out of a perfectly new tank to put them in an uncycled quaranteen tank all due to the possibility that he may have ich. This is a blatant overreaction based on assumptions that have not materialized. There are far better ways to handle this than the sky is falling approach, it's not Ebola people.

I have seen many people overreact to "Ich" when all the white dots are simply specks of sand. Nowhere was any positive recommedations given on exactly how to treat the fish in quaranteen either. If you take something out of a display tank and put it in a smaller tank without adding any sort of medication how are you helping the process??? Should have just left him in.... A serious diseased fish yes take him out and treat, a few white bumps on a new fish is almost the norm on a PBT. The major flaw is that the ich just continues when the fish are reintroduced to back to the display. No medication = no quaranteen.

Please make good recommendations and not just iterate what they did was wrong.

[ca1ore]

Trouble with that is this current tank has a new owner waiting patiently for it to become his. We have approx. 2 days after delivery of new to move everything over and give it to him. I would struggle to put all my livestock in a smaller quarantine. 5 tangs 2 dragonets ( need pods ) coral beauty foxface. & flame angel. Cleaner wrasse Need one hell of a QT. ! If you can suggest another way I am happy to look at it though. ? Any suggestions. ?

Mandarins are problematic, no question. All I am saying is that if you are fairly sure your system has ich, a tank upgrade is a perfect time to take the steps necessary to eradicate it. If it were my tank, I would go to my local tractor supply store and get one of those 150 gallon stock tanks and QT them in that. You may find that in the process of disturbing your current tank you get an ich breakout, at which point you'll reget not taking the time to eradicate it. Or you won't .... no way to know for sure.

[E46Twist]

I have never had to deal with ich but I do now have a PBT. I TTMd him though. However from day one the fish looked great and ate for me, also never shown a single ich spot. I will agree that I think people over react on the ich thing and that it can be subdued with good husbandry rather than throwing a fit. Again it is hard for me to have much merit in this because I have never had it. I do agree that there is no reason not to try and avoid it however.

[lllesley]

I think we just all have to come to the conclusion that there is no right or wrong answer. We all have very different opinions and that's OK.
Like a lot of other things is this hobby and that's what makes this hobby so very interesting.

[ca1ore]

I have never had to deal with ich but I do now have a PBT. I TTMd him though. However from day one the fish looked great and ate for me, also never shown a single ich spot. I will agree that I think people over react on the ich thing and that it can be subdued with good husbandry rather than throwing a fit. Again it is hard for me to have much merit in this because I have never had it. I do agree that there is no reason not to try and avoid it however.

Not sure that folks are 'over-reacting' necessarily. It really only takes one bad ich breakout to wipe out your tank to develop a healthy paranoia. I don't know how long you have been in the hobby, but I'm one of the long-timers, having had a reef tank almost continuously since about 1988, and I have had enough problems with ich over that time that I have that paranoia. Sometimes ich can be managed, but other times it cannot. At the end of the day we each do for our tank what we believe to be best - and hope that the animals in said tank don't suffer for our ignorance.

[pinnatus]

Not sure that folks are 'over-reacting' necessarily. It really only takes one bad ich breakout to wipe out your tank to develop a healthy paranoia. I don't know how long you have been in the hobby, but I'm one of the long-timers, having had a reef tank almost continuously since about 1988, and I have had enough problems with ich over that time that I have that paranoia. Sometimes ich can be managed, but other times it cannot. At the end of the day we each do for our tank what we believe to be best - and hope that the animals in said tank don't suffer for our ignorance.

Same here. It can and will wipe out your fish someday. Just a matter of when.

[wooden_reefer]

In a stable healthy tank there is no reason for it to spread any further. !

In the most stable healthy tank the tank is still closed and ich will likely spread.

The tank is a closed system and "healthy" can only go so far. The tank cannot evade the lack of dilution of the ocean.

Stress, health etc are non-factors as far as ich is concerned.

The decisive factor for ich is the 5 walls of a tank and the reproductive cycle of ich, that is the 5 walls and the presence of ich.

Ich attack comes in waves, there will be nothing for a period and then most come out at once.

The fact that a tank is a closed system is very important in disease control of fish, as well as water quality.

[lllesley]

I respect and have listened to all points if views. Thanks very informative & well worth reading. Cheers

[tmz]

. This is a blatant overreaction based on assumptions that have not materialized. There are far better ways to handle this than the sky is falling approach, it's not Ebola people.

I agree it's not ebola and it doesn't fall from the sky. It's a ciliate protozoan parasite:it come into the aqaruium with fish carriers primarily. It's lethal and often reaches plague like proportions in a reef tank, if you choose to allow it to stay there.

This is one of many useful sources for those interested in what it is and how to deal with it :

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164


Nowhere was any positive recommedations given on exactly how to treat the fish in quaranteen either. If you take something out of a display tank and put it in a smaller tank without adding any sort of medication how are you helping the process???

That's not true .

The link I provided in an earlier post describes this and a med free treatment. Guess you missed it.

Please make good recommendations and not just iterate what they did was wrong.

I make the best recommendations I can muster .
They are pretty clear in the links.
If a tank is exposed to ich leave it fishless for 72 days. Treat the infected fish with tank transfer,med free. Use the 12 days for that treatment to begin to cycle a qt tank for further observation after tank transfer if you don't have one ready. Add some filter material or sponge from the display to accelerate seeding. Monitor ammonia ;use an ammonia detoxifier like Ammo lock by api ,if necessary in a med free tank.

I think recommendation to leave an untreated fish exhibiting symptoms of ich in a display tank is not a good recommendation and often has dire consequences.

[tmz]

Using a sponge bubble filter in qt provides a place where manadrins can and do peck at the food that settles there,IME.

[sbreefer]

can a UV sterilizer help kill ich in the water column?
worth the money?

[Mishri]

It can kill the ich in the water column. Given it's powerful enough for the gph you are pushing through it. There is some info somewhere on what it needs to be... found it awhile ago, you can probably do some searching and find the info.

Questionable if it's worth the money. It wont cure the tank, best it does is help control the outbreak.. (hopefully).

[BigCountry74]

blue powders are tough man. in all my reefing experience this was the hardest fish for me. the catch 22 is there are arguably the best looking tang out there :D

[BlackTip]

can a UV sterilizer help kill ich in the water column?
worth the money?

I talked to an engineer at Emperor Equatic about it. He said one need 250k MJ to eliminate ich. The standard 180k MJ will eliminate bacteria,most protozoa, and help stop the spread of ich.

[Mishri]

That depends on how many GPH is going through it. Infact, here even from their website..

http://www.emperoraquatics-aquarium.com/fish-ich_and_uv.php

[thegrun]

A UV sterilizer may slow down the spread of ich, but it certainly will not eliminate it or even keep it in check long term.

[Scubaken]

I don't keep corals, I removed the cuc from my tank and almost All the live rock , I bought a cheap 50 gallon from ebay and placed my love rock and cuc into it with some power heads and a heater.
I dropped my salinity in my DT and let the good times roll, I was "seemingly" clear after 2 weeks, I left it another 4 weeks, increased the salinity and replaced the live rock. That was 2 years ago, so far I have t had a revisit
Seemed the easiest way for me, just keep an eye of the water params in the live rock tank, can get ugly quickly in there

I also have a tomini tang, a powder blue, a regal, a yellow and a chocolate tang in my 300

[ReeFreak1]

That sounds really easy and by far the most interesting experiment for me to controlling ich Scubaken. How low did you drop the salinity? Did dropping the salinity affect the bio filtration? If so, how did you manage to keep ammonia down in the DT? What do you mean you replaced the live rock?