Live sand life

[JMorris271]

Does anyone know about the amount of time live sand will maintain its life before it becomes croaked sand after being packaged in a plastic bag? Any experiments on this?
Thanks

[Fade2White12]

How long do you plan on keeping it bagged up? Wet or dry?

Nitrifying bacteria are obligate aerobes, meaning they require oxygen for their metabolic functions. In a closed bag depleted of dissolved oxygen, they'll rely on stores within their cells until they run out and ultimately die. Also, any drying of the sand will kill the bacteria as well.

[RocketEngineer]

Whether the sand sold wet in a factory sealed bag can be called "live sand" is mainly a marketing ploy as far as I'm concerned. You are paying for the weight of the water as well as the sand which to me seems like a rip-off. Personally I just use dry sand and let the bacteria and critters on my rocks propagate into the sand. I have purchased Gulf of Mexico live sand which is shipped just like fish are but didn't see much improvement in critter populations afterwards. Your mileage may vary.

[JMorris271]

I am curious as to whether there has been research by a consumer study group to establish the scientific facts rather than theories. Just the facts mame Just the facts.

[Fade2White12]

I'm not aware of any research specifically on the shelf life of bagged live sand (lol) but there is significant research on the nitrifying bacteria that makes that sand "live." By understanding their biology, you can come up with an educated guess on their adaptability.

One factor, like I said, is dissolved oxygen. Another is pH, and temperature, and salinity, etc. If you can provide details on their storage environment and duration, people can give a potential approximation to your question. :)

[cloak]

Does anyone know about the amount of time live sand will maintain its life before it becomes croaked sand after being packaged in a plastic bag? Any experiments on this?
Thanks

Live sand is really no different than a live fish or invertebrate IMO. Treat them the same.

If your talking about that live sand that comes in a bag, there really is no LIFE to it, other than the fluid it comes packaged in.

http://www.amazon.com/Nutrafin-Biological-Filter-Supplement-16-9-Ounce/dp/B0026C8YMQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1412790822&sr=1-1&keywords=cycle+aquarium

[nvladik]

Live sand is really no different than a live fish or invertebrate IMO. Treat them the same.

So it should be drip acclimated? :) j/k

[JMorris271]

OK. I generally accept what has been said above. It's just the thing that gets me about an industry knowing ripping off consumers when they say something is true and they know it is misleading .
Kind of like an "Insurance " company selling policies with no assets to back up the policy.

[thegrun]

Most of what is packaged as "live sand" is not live in the way most of us would think of what live sand should be (or at least what I would consider live), namely crawling with worms, pods, snails and other similar sand dwelling organisms. Packaged "live sand" is simply dry sand with saltwater and bacteria added to the package. The bacteria is in fact usually alive assuming the package hasn't been sitting on a store shelf for a year, but in terms of adding anything beneficial to your system the added bacteria is of minimal value.

[CuzzA]

So everyone makes bold statements about whether live sand is actually alive and how long it can survive in a bag. Without someone doing testing under a microscope these statements are conjecture.

If anyone has found scientific proof one way or the other, then please post it.

Although not the same, but similar, we can look at bacteria in a bottle that sits on a shelf for a long time and find that it's still very much alive. Bacteria is extremely resilient.

As for buying live sand or dry sand, "personally" I value my time more than the difference in price and therefore don't want to sit there with a garden hose cleaning the dry sand to save a few bucks... Minimum wage for cleaning sand, no thanks. ;)

[JMorris271]

From what I just read on a bag of CaribSea Live Sand, it is loaded with millions of bacteria (biofilm)per lb. that will begin the cycle . It is basically Bio in a bottle that doesn't need washing.
HHHHHmmm. I suppose that last statement is subjective.

[Fade2White12]

Bacteria is extremely resilient.

That's too general of a statement. Nitrifying bacteria are not the same as heterotrophic bacteria. Nitrifiers are very slow reproducing (a single E Coli will produce trillions of cells by the time it takes most nitrifiers to even double), and are acutely sensitive to a number of different things - as I said before, temperature, salinity, oxygen, etc.

Free floating bacteria in a bottle does not last long at all. There are certain aspects to nitrifier biology that can allow them to survive "longer" - for instance, providing a substrate in the bottle, or by lowering the temperature (refrigeration) to slow the rate at which they metabolize nutrients. Dr. Tim's, for instance, will only last approximately 6 months if not refrigerated. And this is all assuming companies are dosing their sand/bottles with the correct bacteria (which many are not).

The only one of these products I really trust is the aforementioned Dr. Tim's. His research has shown that the strains of bacteria previously thought as the main nitrifiers in aquaria was incorrect, yet many products still ignore this. His product is grown on a microstructure instead of just floating in water, increasing their longevity.

[ca1ore]

From what I just read on a bag of CaribSea Live Sand, it is loaded with millions of bacteria (biofilm)per lb. that will begin the cycle.

Oh well, if it says that then it must be true!

I find it funny that folks will advocate ghost-feeding a tank to maintain the bacterial filter, yet blithely accept that a sealed bag of sand magically stays 'active'. Punt!

[ca1ore]

As for buying live sand or dry sand, "personally" I value my time more than the difference in price and therefore don't want to sit there with a garden hose cleaning the dry sand to save a few bucks... Minimum wage for cleaning sand, no thanks. ;)

That's fine - does that extend to things like water changes, cleaning the glass, etc.?. I view this as a hobby, not labor arbitrage, so I actually enjoy the menial tanks (well, to a degree). Though I do have two young sons who are always looking for something to do to help 'earn' their allowance :lol:.

[CuzzA]

That's too general of a statement. Nitrifying bacteria are not the same as heterotrophic bacteria. Nitrifiers are very slow reproducing (a single E Coli will produce trillions of cells by the time it takes most nitrifiers to even double), and are acutely sensitive to a number of different things - as I said before, temperature, salinity, oxygen, etc.

Free floating bacteria in a bottle does not last long at all. There are certain aspects to nitrifier biology that can allow them to survive "longer" - for instance, providing a substrate in the bottle, or by lowering the temperature (refrigeration) to slow the rate at which they metabolize nutrients. Dr. Tim's, for instance, will only last approximately 6 months if not refrigerated. And this is all assuming companies are dosing their sand/bottles with the correct bacteria (which many are not).

The only one of these products I really trust is the aforementioned Dr. Tim's. His research has shown that the strains of bacteria previously thought as the main nitrifiers in aquaria was incorrect, yet many products still ignore this. His product is grown on a microstructure instead of just floating in water, increasing their longevity.

Dr. Tim's product is fantastic. I was adding fish within 2 weeks. My point of bacteria being extremely resilient is that you can't compare bacteria to fish or invertebrates as mentioned earlier. Not even close.

That's fine - does that extend to things like water changes, cleaning the glass, etc.?. I view this as a hobby, not labor arbitrage, so I actually enjoy the menial tanks (well, to a degree). Though I do have two young sons who are always looking for something to do to help 'earn' their allowance :lol:.

Well, for me "personally" I wouldn't mind if I didn't have to perform water changes or clean the glass and could spend more time focusing on water chemistry, reef building, livestock, fragging and things of that nature. But they are a necessity and I've made that sort of maintenance very easy by way of plumbing and pumps and a flipper glass cleaner.

I understand your point, but there's so much more that can be done in terms of being a "hobby" than water changes and cleaning glass. Like I said, "personally" cleaning sand before I can use it is not what I would describe as time well spent, when I can just spend a few more bucks for clean sand whether it's alive or not.

Plus my almost 2 year old isn't quite old enough to help out for some allowance. :)

[JMorris271]

Oh well, if it says that then it must be true!

I find it funny that folks will advocate ghost-feeding a tank to maintain the bacterial filter, yet blithely accept that a sealed bag of sand magically stays 'active'. Punt!

That is the exact point of this thread. :bounce2:

[thegrun]

I took the time to count the bacteria in a bag of live sand and was disappointed to find I only had 999,992 bacteria, well short of the promised million, should I ask for a refund?

At the end of the day use live sand is you want to pay extra for saltwater and less sand. I did use live sand on one set-up I made and saw no appreciable decrease in cycle time. I did see nitrates (although low) right away that had to come from the sand. I think there is little to no benefit to using packaged live sand, but little harm except perhaps to your pocketbook.

[ca1ore]

Plus my almost 2 year old isn't quite old enough to help out for some allowance. :)

Ha, yes, indeed not. Works well once they get to be about 10 years old though.