Marineland Penguin Power Filters?

[crusoe]

Hey guys,

I bought the 10g version of this as my first tank Marineland 10g (http://www.marineland.com/Products/fish-tank-aquarium-starter-kits/freshwater-saltwater-led-aquarium-kits.aspx). I know, probably should've went bigger :P The rep at Big Al's suggested 1 week for cycle completion and to add the clowns after that.

One of these biofilters (http://www.marineland.com/Products/aquarium-filters-and-protein-skimmers/penguin-bio-wheel-filter-saltwater-filter-freshwater-filter.aspx) was included with the kit. There is a blue filter included with the kit and I was wondering if it should be cleaned regularly? After two weeks of cycling the tank there is slight buildup on the outsides of the filter.

Here's my data so far

http://i.imgur.com/pNMuqZq.png

And here's an FTS

http://i.imgur.com/zwGTMWK.png

[kurt_n]

The biofilter (the round paddle-wheel thingie) should *never* be cleaned. That's where the bacteria live. However, with the amount of rock you have there, I wouldn't be worried about it... your bacteria will mostly be on the rock and in the sand. The blue filter pads should be rinsed weekly and changed every couple weeks.

Make sure if you're adding rock with the fish in there that the rock is fully cured. If not, it will cause another cycle from the die off. That's probably where that ammonia spike came from. Either that, or you put too many fish in the tank, too soon. I've never seen a tank cycle in a week, but what's done is done. Keep an eye on those ammonia levels and have plenty of saltwater (at the correct temperature) on hand in case you need to do an emergency water change.

[thegrun]

Your tank looks nice but you are rushing things. It is rare for a cycle to be complete in a week and that is shown to be true with the sudden spike in ammonia when you added the fish. I would avoid any advice the "Big Al" rep gives, bring your questions to us. You can use the filter you have, but you are going to want more water movement. I would add a small powerhead to the system. If I remember correctly in addition to the bio-wheel your filter has a filter pad that should be cleaned every 3-4 days. Since you have rock in the tank that will host the bacteria I would clean the bio-wheel once a week or so, otherwise the bio-wheel is likely to increase your nitrates which are already high.

[crusoe]

Thanks for the posts guys. There seems to be conflicting advice though, clean the bio-wheel and don't clean the bio-wheel, not sure which to do?

I will for sure start rinsing out the blue filter pad and a Nano Koralia 240 is definitely on my list of next most important pieces to buy.

Unfortunately I didn't do my research before I bought, so I thought these guys knew what they were talking about...not the case as thegrun pointed out, the numbers never lie!

I guess the best course of action is to continue monitoring my levels every other day and have some saltwater ready for 25% change should nitrates blow past 40ppm?

[kurt_n]

I'm the one that said don't clean the biowheel, but depending on how you want to use it that advice can go either way. Don't clean it if you intend to use it as an "always cycled" biomedia that can be put in a hospital tank on a moment's notice. (That's how I use mine.) *Do* clean it if you don't intend to do that because you have enough rock in that tank to serve as your biofilter. In fact, if you do decide to clean it, I'd just take the wheel out altogether - it's not really serving any purpose with that specific setup.

You want the water ready for a water change in case ammonia shows up. Nitrates aren't going to harm the fish. You *should* do water changes to get those nitrates down so you aren't dealing with an algae outbreak, which could be coming sooner than later with those numbers. Shoot for the best water quality you can get, and that will make the rest easier.

[Waters40]

I agree with whomever said the biological portion of the filter probably isn't needed. If the live rock has already been cured, there most likely won't ever be any evidence of the initial cycle other than a build up of nitrates. My 60g has been set up for almost a year and I have never had any measurable amount of ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates....all due to the live rock. I, personally would probably just remove the biowheel and use the filter with just floss and carbon.

[crusoe]

Ah it's the ammonia that I have to worry about moreso than the nitrates in terms of a harmful enviroment for my livestock - makes sense!

I'm going to dump the bio-wheel then since as you guys have pointed out, I already have more than enough live rock to do the job.

Funny thing you mentioned the algae coming sooner than later, as I think I'm starting to see cyano (possibly?) starting on the sand at the front of the tank. Here's a picture, can you guys confirm? It's the brownish tinge right next to the glass. If it is cyano, I'm probably due for another water change sooner than later?

http://i.imgur.com/ccLlMdQ.png

[kurt_n]

If it's brown and dusty on the surface of the sand, it's more than likely diatoms. Harmless, but ugly. They'll burn themselves out over time, just be patient. It's pretty much a right of passage for any new tank.

And your sand right next to the glass will develop all sorts of colorful algae that you'll be able to see. As long as it stays localized to just next to the glass, you're fine.

[crusoe]

Thanks for the info, kurt. It is indeed dusty, so as you've stated, probably diatoms. What's the avg lifecycle on them?

[billdogg]

In regards to the use of BioWheels - I used a dual biowheel penguin emperor on my 60 cube from the day I set it up until the day I upgraded to a 120. I still have the orginal biowheels in my sump to use for my QT. I rinsed them in tank water if I remembered, but not very often.The filter pads probably should be cleaned about weekly - I cleaned them about every 6 weeks at water change time, and replaced them every other time (about every 3 months) The tank never had any real amount of nitrates so I'm a bit skeptical about their status as "nitrate factories". I found that the filter pads became breeding grounds for mini brittle stars and pods. I kept softies, zoas and palys, mushrooms, and a few LPS without trouble - if anything, things grew too well, necessitating the upgrade to the 120. I did keep fish load fairly low and I'm sure that helped to keep nitrates down.

And by the way - that tank ran that way for just over 22 years.

hth

[crusoe]

Thanks for the input, billdogg. I guess my next question is, did you have live rock in addition to the biowheel?

I've taken out my biowheel, going to test the water again tomorrow to see if the nitrates have dropped. I'll probably leave it out for a week and keep testing and then make a final decision once I've got some more data.

[billdogg]

The other filtration on that tank consisted of a fluval 405? canister filter that had the stock sponges, carbon, LR rubble, and more carbon. The LR in the tank was a piece of pumice that I got at the local landscaping company (Columbus Stone) and then carved into a reefscape with swim throughs and tunnels. Because dry pumice floats (who knew?) it was siliconed to the bottom of the tank. I also used a TLF 150 for GFO. VHO lights until about 1 year before the upgrade when I switched to a single AI Sol blue.

Here's what it looked like shortly before the upgrade, although this picture really doesn't do it justice
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll227/billdogg_photos/Aquarium%20Shots/_MG_3491.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/billdogg_photos/media/Aquarium%20Shots/_MG_3491.jpg.html)

[kurt_n]

...
I've taken out my biowheel, going to test the water again tomorrow to see if the nitrates have dropped. I'll probably leave it out for a week and keep testing and then make a final decision once I've got some more data.

Nitrates don't go away on their own in the system you have there. Nitrates are the last step in the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle. You get rid of them by doing water changes.

Now if you're talking deep sand beds, and the denitrification process going on there, yes... you could get rid of nitrates. But that's not what you have and I wouldn't suggest going there.

Water changes are the only way your nitrates will be reduced.

[Waters40]

Nitrates don't go away on their own in the system you have there. Nitrates are the last step in the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle. You get rid of them by doing water changes.

Now if you're talking deep sand beds, and the denitrification process going on there, yes... you could get rid of nitrates. But that's not what you have and I wouldn't suggest going there.

Water changes are the only way your nitrates will be reduced.

That is actually incorrect. Deep within the live rock, denitrification also takes place. That is why they recommend porous live rock vs. dense boulders. I have never detected any nitrates in my system using only live rock and small water changes. You are correct though, this also happens in deep sand beds. That is also why live rock is often used in sumps instead of bio-balls......bio-balls allow the buildup of nitrates while the live rock turns the nitrates into gas. Does this always happen....no. It depends on the quality of the live rock and the amount of flow in your sump.

That being said, I agree the biowheel is not large enough to allow a large build up of nitrates...it is just an unnecessary piece that can be removed.....but it won't harm anything to leave it in place.

[crusoe]

This has brought about some good discussion points, the conclusion being that it doesn't matter either way.

After taking out the bio-wheel, I noticed one thing, a lot more bubbles were being produced from the water coming out of the filter. Made the water look a bit more cloudy with the extra bubbles.

[crusoe]

On another note, I have something that needs some ID'ing. It's probably 1cm tall? Came on the latest LR addition and there are three of them, same size, that I've spotted so far. Any ideas?

http://i.imgur.com/BQ82Xlu.png

[Waters40]

Yeah, the bio filter was probably catching a lot of the micro bubbles....may be worth it to leave it in just for that reason alone. As for the ID, it is hard to tell....at first I thought it was Apatasia (which is bad), but now it almost looks like a small feather duster. Do the "feathers" disappear into the tube when it is disturbed? Maybe somebody else can give you a better ID.

[crusoe]

The feathers disappeared once I turned on moonlight LED's, so that's a good sign! And after referring to other pictures on google images this confirms your thoughts.

[kurt_n]

That is actually incorrect. ...

Yes and no. Note I said "... in the system you have there." It's a new system. Pretty sure that type of denitrification is not happening yet in there. Takes a while for that whole system to create itself.

Just because you haven't detected nitrates in your system doesn't mean that's what's doing it. Could just be you keep a clean tank, don't overfeed, and are good with maintenance. I run a *bunch* of porous live rock and a deep sand bed in my tank, and I have nitrates. (I'm also good with maintenance and keep a clean tank.) Not a lot, but it's measurable. And that doesn't mean that the rock isn't providing any denitrification, it just means I'm adding more than it's taking out!

I'm not arguing with you or trying to confuse the OP... I'm just trying to point out that all systems are different. While denitrification does occur, I'd rather suggest hanging your hat on the water change method of reducing them versus waiting it out and hoping your system eliminates them on their own. With a head start of 30ppm nitrates and two clowns in a 10g tank, even with a fully functioning deep sand bed, I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to see a reduction in those nitrates.

And yeah... that's just a feather duster. No worries!

[Waters40]

Yes and no. Note I said "... in the system you have there." It's a new system. Pretty sure that type of denitrification is not happening yet in there. Takes a while for that whole system to create itself.

Just because you haven't detected nitrates in your system doesn't mean that's what's doing it. Could just be you keep a clean tank, don't overfeed, and are good with maintenance. I run a *bunch* of porous live rock and a deep sand bed in my tank, and I have nitrates. (I'm also good with maintenance and keep a clean tank.) Not a lot, but it's measurable. And that doesn't mean that the rock isn't providing any denitrification, it just means I'm adding more than it's taking out!

I'm not arguing with you or trying to confuse the OP... I'm just trying to point out that all systems are different. While denitrification does occur, I'd rather suggest hanging your hat on the water change method of reducing them versus waiting it out and hoping your system eliminates them on their own. With a head start of 30ppm nitrates and two clowns in a 10g tank, even with a fully functioning deep sand bed, I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to see a reduction in those nitrates.

And yeah... that's just a feather duster. No worries!

Sorry Kurt...I missed where you pointed out that his system was too new. Regarding my setup though, my nitrates are currently removed by a combination of live rock and water changes, as you stated. I respectfully disagree with the statement that a new system is incapable of denitrification though. If you are inserting established live rock into a new system, the necessary bacteria is already there, deep within the rock. When I first set up the tank, my tank was cycled from day one and never showed any measureable nitrates for several months, without doing any water changes at all. In fact, I kept waiting for the initial cycle to start because I wasn't seeing any nitrates. Yes, of course a lot is dependent upon the amount of nitrates going in....I agree, if you keep adding nitrates you are eventually going to eclipse the ability of the live rock (or even partial water changes) to keep them at 0. The key is to find that balance.

[crusoe]

Did another water test this morning:
pH: 8
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 30

I wonder what could've caused the slight spike in ammonia again? I just prepped another 2.5gallons for a water change later this afternoon once the water has aerated sufficiently. Will test again and report back with results.

Is 2.5 gallons enough of a water change to see any measurable difference in nitrates and ammonia? Or should I be changing out more?

Also, do you guys know of any good electronic testing equipment? Besides a refractometer. For some reason, I don't find the drops and comparison to a colour chart to be too, well, confidence inspiring.

[kurt_n]

2.5g water change in a 10g tank will reduce the ammonia by 25%. I wouldn't do more than a 25% water change when you have livestock in there. But I'd plan on doing 25% water changes every day for a while. Make sure the new water is at the same temp, and the same salinity.

I think the ammonia spike is coming from the fact that you put fish in a tank that wasn't ready yet... it wasn't fully cycled. Or that the bacteria population hasn't caught up to the output from the two fish. I know when I had three small Chromis in a 10g quarantine tank (cycled), it was tough to keep the ammonia undetectable.

I use the drop kits myself. They do make electronic testers for ammonia (Hanna Checker series), but I've never used one. Once you get your tank established, ammonia just isn't one of those thing you really check for a lot (or at least I don't!), so I'm not thinking many folks have bought one.