ridiculous ich outbreak!! need help

[Zacktosterone]

Ok so I purchased some fish and put them in quarantine and
Came home today to find the tangs I have in there are COVERED in salt. I was going to do tank transfer but at this point I don't even think they'll make it!! How fast can I increase copper. I've got 3 small tangs, a melunaris wrasse and a couple anthias is quarantine.

What should I do. I was going to do tank transfer tonight but it looks like it would be way too late. If I wait till morning when the cysts jump off and change the water in the morning and add some copper It may be better. If I wait till morning it will be about 67 hours. Then do it every 3 days after while maintaining the overall amount of copper whenever they're in the tank.

Advice needed!!

[sreefs]

How many gallons is your QT? Also what size are your 3 tangs? Do you have access to cp?
I like tank transfer but that is a lot of fish to QT at one time. It is a group of big eaters.

[Zacktosterone]

How many gallons is your QT? Also what size are your 3 tangs? Do you have access to cp?
I like tank transfer but that is a lot of fish to QT at one time. It is a group of big eaters.

2" each. I can do tank transfer I don't mind the work that's what I usually do. I have cupramine if that's what you mean by cp. Its a 20 gallon long. I was going to change them to a completely different tank, heater, pipes etc and water every 2 days.

[sreefs]

CP is short for Chloroquine Phosphate. Are you sure you are dealing with ich? If so I would use tank transfer, but make sure to keep ammonia under control. Feed anthias small amounts a few times daily. Be sure you have amquel or similar on hand to treat ammonia.

[snorvich]

Describe the behavior of the fish? When acquired? Did the LFS run a low level of copper?

[Zacktosterone]

Describe the behavior of the fish? When acquired? Did the LFS run a low level of copper?

No they were in a reef environment. Eating well. Noticible small signs of ich. Maybe a dot or two on two tangs. I didn't expect an explosion. I purchased them thinking I can cure them and keep up with amonia with tank transfer. I've done it before with great success. But now I'm not sure if it will still work

[Zacktosterone]

I woke up this morning to find my kole tang is dead. Its got a glaze over its body and a tonne up salt spray . I've added copper last night and I transfered everyone over to the new tank with new water. The copper concentration was the same.

Tank transfer won't work. The tang and male anthias are still covered in what seems to be the velvet. Velvet rarely shows until its too late. But ich doesnt kill this fast.

[Zacktosterone]

Going back to my previous post! The male anthias, the kole and purple tang were in a low copper solution actually!!! The rest were in a reef environment. The three in the low copper solution were the first ones to contract it

[Zacktosterone]

my fish look like this
295602

[Zacktosterone]

Can someone chime in?

[tassod]

I'm no expert but it seems that you are dealing with Velvet at this point and not Ich so TT method is out of the question. Copper or CP would be the only treatments to go with right now.

[Zacktosterone]

I'm no expert but it seems that you are dealing with Velvet at this point and not Ich so TT method is out of the question. Copper or CP would be the only treatments to go with right now.

There's no way I can get my hands on cp. I have cupramine in the tank now. I'm wondering how fast I can raise the levels to take control

[Zacktosterone]

Anyone?

[snorvich]

I think you should go back and reread your thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2438751).

[Nina51]

zing!!

[Zacktosterone]

Hey snorvich I told you that I always quarantine and I was playing devils advocate or did you forget that when we were talking about tank transfer in your thread and another I have made. Second I don't have a single fish in my main display that has not been quarantined and medicated. Thirdly these fish have never seen my display. And nina51, the playground where the other highschool kids are is around the corner. So I don't understand why I can't get some help with the proper protocol that has been preached for years. Or is it about getting off on "I told you so" to a person who has always quarantined and started a thread for the sake of arguement that you both fed into?

[reeferstace]

Wow. Just wow. :facepalm:

[pinnatus]

When I use copper, I follow the directions on the bottle. I have a test kit to check the levels, because live rock will absorb some and I want to get the levels correct.

[Zacktosterone]

When I use copper, I follow the directions on the bottle. I have a test kit to check the levels, because live rock will absorb some and I want to get the levels correct.

I have only glass and PVC in the tank

[wooden_reefer]

my fish look like this
295602

Looks like ich to me.


Velvet is more powdery.

At this stage, I'd use copper.

[Zacktosterone]

Looks like ich to me.


Velvet is more powdery.

At this stage, I'd use copper.

That's what I'm thinking as well

[avandss]

Looks like ich to me.


Velvet is more powdery.

At this stage, I'd use copper.

that is not the actual picture of his fish.

it would help to see a real picture.

a proper qt procedure is one of the most important parts of the hobby, its cruel and horrible to think that some people do not QT

also Snorvich & others are here to help, they have many years of experience and i would listen to any advice they have to offer.

[avandss]

if it is ich, TT would be the best bet, if copper is added to quickly it can stress an already weak fish and make matters worst.

if you could post a picture i think it would really help narrow it down.

[Zacktosterone]

that is not the actual picture of his fish.

it would help to see a real picture.

a proper qt procedure is one of the most important parts of the hobby, its cruel and horrible to think that some people do not QT

also Snorvich & others are here to help, they have many years of experience and i would listen to any advice they have to offer.

I would LOVE their advice not their sarcasm. I think its ich. I will take pictures tonight. I noticed a lot less dots on the fish so I'm going to transfer again tonight.

[Nina51]

I told you that I always quarantine. Second I don't have a single fish in my main display that has not been quarantined and medicated.

well then, i'm confused. not to get in a peein' contest with you but only 2 months ago (your other thread that steve referenced), you said you NEVER qt anything. so, you didn't qt in august but you do now?

[Dummyforclownfi]

well then, i'm confused. not to get in a peein' contest with you but only 2 months ago (your other thread that steve referenced), you said you NEVER qt anything. so, you didn't qt in august but you do now?
Not to get in a peein match but then you post this?
Anyhow I don't think it would hurt to do TT in case it is ich. Hard to know without a pic but you got nothing to lose.

[Zacktosterone]

well then, i'm confused. not to get in a peein' contest with you but only 2 months ago (your other thread that steve referenced), you said you NEVER qt anything. so, you didn't qt in august but you do now?

No... Ive always quarantined fish, I've never not. Well maybe when I just started. I was playing devils advocate to set the stage to get as many polls as possible. I didn't expect to get ridiculed. I don't have a single fish in my tank that is not quarantined or medicated. I've got zero disease. I was trying to keep cover but started losing it near the end. I did get great poll results. But no, to answer your questiom ive always quarantined. I've just never dealt with velvet. I don't think it is now that I'm looking at the fish

[sreefs]

No... Ive always quarantined fish, I've never not. Well maybe when I just started. I was playing devils advocate to set the stage to get as many polls as possible. I didn't expect to get ridiculed. I don't have a single fish in my tank that is not quarantined or medicated. I've got zero disease. I was trying to keep cover but started losing it near the end. I did get great poll results. But no, to answer your questiom ive always quarantined. I've just never dealt with velvet. I don't think it is now that I'm looking at the fish

This is a great forum, but I wish guys like you would quit playing some dumb game. I don't get what you are trying to find out. Again quit wasting mine and everyone else's time.

[Zacktosterone]

This is a great forum, but I wish guys like you would quit playing some dumb game. I don't get what you are trying to find out. Again quit wasting mine and everyone else's time.

This is a part of another thread but your right. I'm sure there could of been another way but that thread is closed and done.

I'll get a picture asap

[Zacktosterone]

295707

295708

Here's a terrible cell phone video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ4vE3dkVP0

[ReeFreak1]

Tank transfer is way too stressful on fish let alone having three trangs in a small 20 gallon QT. If your fish is too stressed, chances are they are not gonna make it. I have had great success with hyposalinity. It increases the amount of oxygen in the water so the fish is less stressed. It also requires no poisonous copper, which also prevents the extra stress. It helps the fish fight off disease by preserving the fish energy spent towards salt exertion.

You need to have a refractometer and drop the salinity down by adding fresh water until you get to 1.09 over the course of a couple of days. It would be better to drop over longer time, but in your case a rapid drop is required or the fish aren't going to make it. monitor the ammonia and keep under control. Once all signs of ick are gone and your fish seem healthy (this usually takes about a week), continue hypo for 4-6 weeks.

[Reefer07]

Hey I don't wanna take over the thread but I figured I'd post here since I'm having the same issue with a small 3" sailfin I just bought in my 90. There are also many threads about ich too. Only other tankmates are pair of clowns and blackcap basslet. An before I get the sailfin outgrowing the tank speal I am moving this upcoming summer/fall and with the move will be getting a larger tank or will let the tang go at that point if I have to.
Anyways, the fish was qt with copper for over a month and I have never had ich before. I have a standard 90 gallon with about 120 lbs of live rock and no sand at all, barebottom here. Tank is all good, no ammonia, nitrites or anything. Phosphate is almost undetectable to. I bought him this past Friday and he looked great. My friend owns a local LFS and I tell him what I want, he gets it and wt it for me. An I'm not talking a "friend" from going to this LFS....im talking long term childhood friend before he even owned the store so I trust him.
Anyways, 2 days ago I noticed like two small white spots on the tail. Yesterday, I come home, pop the lights on and this thing is COVERED!!! Overnite....I've never seen anything like it. However, since I got him Friday and even still this thing eats like a rabid animal. It eats everything and anything so I grabbed some garlic yesterday. I think the only thing I really have goin for me is no sand bed. I have already bumped up the temp to 81 and slowly lowering SG to 1.019. Was at .023, brought down to .021-ish yesterday. The tang is not scratching at all or rubbing against anything and is actually acting quite normal in comparison with all other sailfins I have seen.
I am going to keep bringing SG down with my refractometer to 1.019 as stated.
I guess my question is how hard is hyposal as I have never done it and what do I have to watch out for?
Also, if I were to just say **** it, is my LR really ruined for good? Even if ai were to run cupramine afterwards which I already am running....??
This is a FO tank but I do have some really nice rock in there that I would like to use for a reef down the road.
Also, on a side note, just a quick question. After reading all these other threads about ich: say you pull fish and qt in a copper tank. They get cured. Now if ich always stays in a tank and only outbreaks when fish get stressed, what is to say that as soon as I were to drop fish back in my DT that they just get ich again? Maybe I just haven't read enough yet. I just find it weird the fish are acting totally normal and they got infected so bad. The clowns are fine but the basslet is definitely showing some spots now too.

[ReeFreak1]

Another idea which I found usefull (only if you have a mature QT from a biological standpoint) is to use the same steps I mentioned for hypo until all signs of ick disappear and your fish seem healthy (this usually takes about a week of hypo). Then start raising salinity and adding coppermine simultaneously and gradually over the course of one week to bring the water to normal salinity (1.025) and coppermine to full dose. This handoff process puts continuous stress on parasites and less stress on fish. The biological filter will be suspended at low salinities, but will start working again once out of hypo so less water changes would be required. Watch for Ammonia and PH levels daily. This treatment is quicker than hypo alone and help fight a wider range of pathogens, while quickly eradicate pathogens for heavily infested fish.

Mark

[snorvich]

Against my better judgement . . .

1. Tank transfer is the quickest and most effective way of eliminating ich. However it will do nothing for any other parasite. Based on the mortality timeline of the OP it is highly likely that velvet is involved. I had asked for behavioral indications but was never provided with them.

2. Hyposalinity, even if properly executed, will have no affect on any parasite other than ich. And there is at least one strain of ich that is immune to hyposaline treatments. It is also very difficult to execute properly because if Sg exceeds 1.009 that clock restarts and depends on a properly calibrated refractometer. Even then, you would have to know the standard error of the mean for that instrument to insure you are hyposaline.

3. Buying fish from an LFS that runs a non-therapeutic dosage level of copper is highly risky because it will mask various parasites. And of course depending on the LFS to quarantine will not end well. The longer a fish is at the LFS, the greater the chance it will have acquired an undesirable parasite.

4. Copper treatment for ich will work, but for a 100% guaranteed solution, it would have to be extended longer than the longest observed lifecycle of ich which is 72 days. Many people treat for 30 days, and that will be fine most, but not all, of the time.

5. CP treatment of ich is more effective than hyposalinity and may also be more effective than copper since there is some anecdotal evidence that it may work on more than one stage of the life cycle which hyposalinity and copper do not.

6. Tank transfer is not stressful if done right. However I would never try to put three tangs through that level of confinement at the same time. Dieing, on the other hand, is stressful.

7. Visible symptoms of ich come and go, and relief from visible symptoms does not mean the tank is free of ich. Also, if ich is in the gills, you will not see it. However, you will see behavior indicative of the problem.

[Zacktosterone]

Against my better judgement . . .

1. Tank transfer is the quickest and most effective way of eliminating ich. However it will do nothing for any other parasite. Based on the mortality timeline of the OP it is highly likely that velvet is involved. I had asked for behavioral indications but was never provided with them.

2. Hyposalinity, even if properly executed, will have no affect on any parasite other than ich. And there is at least one strain of ich that is immune to hyposaline treatments. It is also very difficult to execute properly because if Sg exceeds 1.009 that clock restarts and depends on a properly calibrated refractometer. Even then, you would have to know the standard error of the mean for that instrument to insure you are hyposaline.

3. Buying fish from an LFS that runs a non-therapeutic dosage level of copper is highly risky because it will mask various parasites. And of course depending on the LFS to quarantine will not end well. The longer a fish is at the LFS, the greater the chance it will have acquired an undesirable parasite.

4. Copper treatment for ich will work, but for a 100% guaranteed solution, it would have to be extended longer than the longest observed lifecycle of ich which is 72 days. Many people treat for 30 days, and that will be fine most, but not all, of the time.

5. CP treatment of ich is more effective than hyposalinity and may also be more effective than copper since there is some anecdotal evidence that it may work on more than one stage of the life cycle which hyposalinity and copper do not.

6. Tank transfer is not stressful if done right. However I would never try to put three tangs through that level of confinement at the same time. Dieing, on the other hand, is stressful.

7. Visible symptoms of ich come and go, and relief from visible symptoms does not mean the tank is free of ich. Also, if ich is in the gills, you will not see it. However, you will see behavior indicative of the problem.

I've got one 2" tang and 1 1" tang, a couple of anthias and a wrasse in there. I did a tank transfer because I've seen a lack of cysts so I concluded a lot of them have dropped off so I transferewd everything. I said for behavior they were eating. (To add, they were also acting cometely normal, no flashing or heavy breathing) I've provided you with two pictures and a video of the fish. I can not get cp anywhere. All of my fish are eating again after the transfer. This morning all of the fish are very lively!! And look a lot better. (Meaning they're not breathing heavy anymore) I will be doing another TT tomorrow although I might want to do one tonight because there is a lack of spots again and I would like to get them away from the ich. I think the mortality rate was due to shipping stress because velvet would still be taking numbers. I have copper in the tank as well as doing transfer in case velvet actually is present. They are used to the copper by now I will be raising it again today by a half dose.

[Reefer07]

So Snorvich, after the ich drops of the host (3-5 days from what I read) if water conditions are still good and no stress or anything and fish are eating a good balanced diet does that mean there's a good chance that the ich won't come back? I understand that its always dormant but if all health is good other than that the fish should be fine?

[Reefer07]

Wait, Zak....if I read correctly you said your fish weren't breathing heavy or flashing and then two sentences later you said they aren't breathing heavy anymore....???
Which is or was it?

[snorvich]

So Snorvich, after the ich drops of the host (3-5 days from what I read) if water conditions are still good and no stress or anything and fish are eating a good balanced diet does that mean there's a good chance that the ich won't come back? I understand that its always dormant but if all health is good other than that the fish should be fine?

Actually, that is the principle behind tank transfer. Since the front end of the life cycle is so highly deterministic, if the fish is moved to a new water space (new tank) after the ich "drops off", then the back end of the life cycle does not happen at all. If the fish is not moved, the back end will occur, resulting in reinfection and exponentially increasing quantity of ich. This "confined space issue" of easy reinfection is why ich can be fatal eventually.

[snorvich]

So Snorvich, after the ich drops of the host (3-5 days from what I read) if water conditions are still good and no stress or anything and fish are eating a good balanced diet does that mean there's a good chance that the ich won't come back? I understand that its always dormant but if all health is good other than that the fish should be fine?

But if you truly want to understand the subtleties of cryptocaryon irritans, I suggest reading this sticky. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2159738) More than you wanted to know, perhaps, but if you read and understand this in detail, it will provide answers to many questions people ask about this parasite.

[Zacktosterone]

Wait, Zak....if I read correctly you said your fish weren't breathing heavy or flashing and then two sentences later you said they aren't breathing heavy anymore....???
Which is or was it?
In the store they weren't breathing heavy or flashing. When I got them home they were breathing heavy but not flashing. After a couple tank transfers they are no longer breathing heavy and are eating good and active. So I will continue with tank transfers

[wooden_reefer]

Tank transfer is way too stressful on fish let alone having three trangs in a small 20 gallon QT. If your fish is too stressed, chances are they are not gonna make it. I have had great success with hyposalinity. It increases the amount of oxygen in the water so the fish is less stressed. It also requires no poisonous copper, which also prevents the extra stress. It helps the fish fight off disease by preserving the fish energy spent towards salt exertion.

You need to have a refractometer and drop the salinity down by adding fresh water until you get to 1.09 over the course of a couple of days. It would be better to drop over longer time, but in your case a rapid drop is required or the fish aren't going to make it. monitor the ammonia and keep under control. Once all signs of ick are gone and your fish seem healthy (this usually takes about a week), continue hypo for 4-6 weeks.

Absolutely do not start TTM when a fish has not eaten well. 12 more days of disturbance may lead to death later. Ich is not the only cause of death; many pathogens are in balance with the fish and when a fishh is weakened they will take over, internal bacteria, internal fungus, internal parasites.

The first thing fish need is recovery from poor nutrition from capture and transport.

TTM should not be the primary means for eradication of ich, IMO.

Some fish can easily handle TTM. Some fish eat well quickly even when handled and seldom get bacterial infection. Many don't and are poor candidates for TTM.

[Reefer07]

So what's really the best course of action here? I have plenty of cycled live rock in my DT.
Is grabbing a 20 long or 29 and setting up a copper qt the best option here? I can use some rocks from DT for QT.
When the fish are removed from DT and there is nothing in there the ich will die off by itself cuz there are no hosts?

[wooden_reefer]

So what's really the best course of action here? I have plenty of cycled live rock in my DT.
Is grabbing a 20 long or 29 and setting up a copper qt the best option here? I can use some rocks from DT for QT.
When the fish are removed from DT and there is nothing in there the ich will die off by itself cuz there are no hosts?

If the cycled rock do not have much encrusted lives to die off and pollute, you can use hypo in QT with some rock. If die off is not heavy, you can use Prime or Amquel. When you use such products, you have to consider drug interactions.

Likely a two stage approach is better.

To allow a DT to fallow for 12 weeks, very well cycled medium to support the fish is practically necessary.

Stage one is to prevent death for ich or ammonia or poor nutrition, without the aim of eradication.

Stage two is to eradicate ich when medium for QT is cycled after about 4 weeks.



I always have a lot of robustly cycled medium standing by, well fed with ammonia, for about six months after the last addition to DT. The bacteria is at least 10x more than enough for all fish.

[Reefer07]

Kinda lost ya there.....i have 120 lbs of LR in my tank. 60 of it was fresh base and 60 was deeply cycled LR. Deep meaning been in someone elses tank for quite some time. Completely covered in dark coraline algae.
Since this is a FO tank the only thing really holding me back from doing copper is the rock. Down the road I would like to have the possibility of using this stuff for a reef. And that's a good amount of rock to soil with copper.

So I just got home. Turned my lights on, fish were already out swimming. The ick spots on my bass let are already completely gone.....in one day. The tang is not any better nor any worse. He is still eating like a beast and no flashing or anything. Appears to be very happy. And now he is eatin seaweed off the veggie clip for the first time.

[wooden_reefer]

If you use hypo likely the algae on the rock will die and pollute. You should wash away as much algae as possible before using the cycled rock in QT.

Rock cycled must have kept maintaining bioload in order to be active, as least not too long ago.

[scags101]

Interesting following this thread and all the ideas and experiences of what works and what doesn't. I guess every situation is different. I have 2 tangs a yellow and blue hippo. Both went through the ich crap and all I did was make sure they were In qt with a cleaner wrasse and a skunk cleaner shrimp. Took 3 weeks of healthy feeding and they did fine. Never have an episode since. The shrimp and wrasse are now in my DT. With no symptoms. This episode happened last spring. Keep in mind this was my experience and choice of actions. It's not guaranteed to work for everyone. Now I'm just more preventative.

[reeferstace]

It's not guaranteed to work for everyone. Now I'm just more preventative.




It's not guaranteed to work for anyone. Cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp do nothing to eradicate Cryptocaryon.

[Zacktosterone]

Lol who's problem are we talking about now?

[Zacktosterone]

It's not guaranteed to work for anyone. Cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp do nothing to eradicate Cryptocaryon.

I agree. The statement is based on what it looks like the cleaners are doing. Not what they're actually doinh

[snorvich]

It's not guaranteed to work for anyone. Cleaner wrasses and cleaner shrimp do nothing to eradicate Cryptocaryon.

This. First, assays of the stomach do not show that either will consume ich or most other parasites (there is an exception but it would not be relevant). Second, ich is below the skin and not reachable by either.

[Reefer22153]

I agree with scag101. Put a few cleaner wrasses in there and they will absolutely eradicate the ich; that's what they do in the wild. It is the best and most natural solution for ich. The cleaner shrimps are not as efficient in my experience.

[sreefs]

In a closed system, (which all our tanks are no matter how large) a cleaner wrasse, shrimp or even a magic cure will not eradicate ich. Please anyone not sure read the sticky on ich at the beginning of the disease tread.

[snorvich]

In a closed system, (which all our tanks are no matter how large) a cleaner wrasse, shrimp or even a magic cure will not eradicate ich. Please anyone not sure read the sticky on ich at the beginning of the disease tread.

Correct. Using a cleaner wrasse to try and control/eradicate ich is an effort in futility. Ich is below the skin, cleaner wrasses do not eat ich.

[Zacktosterone]

if anyone is still interested.... my fish are all doing a lot better so i'm going to continue with tank transfer since it's not possible to be marine velvet.....

[Zacktosterone]

@snorvich. I'm going to take a guess and say I don't have marine velvet? Because all of my fish are eating and doing fine after a couple tank transfers? I haven't noticed any new spots so I will count this as day one and continue to do transfers until the 12 days are up. Then observe

[Zacktosterone]

I agree with scag101. Put a few cleaner wrasses in there and they will absolutely eradicate the ich; that's what they do in the wild. It is the best and most natural solution for ich. The cleaner shrimps are not as efficient in my experience.

I'm going to severely disagree. Ich Is under the skin of a fish. I cleaner wrasse will not rip the skin of a fish, only clean the surface

[Reefer22153]

I'm going to severely disagree. Ich Is under the skin of a fish. I cleaner wrasse will not rip the skin of a fish, only clean the surface


Ich is caused by the protozoan ICHTHYOPTHIRIUS, which is an ectoparasite. ECTOparasite means external parasite as opposed to ENDOparasite which you suggested.

I'm assuming you have never witnessed cleaner wrasses go to work on ich.

[Zacktosterone]

Ich is caused by the protozoan ICHTHYOPTHIRIUS, which is an ectoparasite. ECTOparasite means external parasite as opposed to ENDOparasite which you suggested.

I'm assuming you have never witnessed cleaner wrasses go to work on ich.

Ever try to pull ich off of a dead fish? I googled it. Because I don't understand a majority of the words you used. Its under the skin. I think snorvich told me that

[Reefer22153]

Ever try to pull ich off of a dead fish? I googled it. Because I don't understand a mojority of the words you used. Its under the skin. I think snorvich told me that


That's not a very clever comparison. From perusing this thread, I suspect ich removal isn't your forte.

[Zacktosterone]

That's not a very clever comparison. From perusing this thread, I suspect ich removal isn't your forte.

Actually this thread is about my fish having ich in a case that is worse than it usually is. But because I understand it tank transfer is working

[Zacktosterone]

Correct. Using a cleaner wrasse to try and control/eradicate ich is an effort in futility. Ich is below the skin, cleaner wrasses do not eat ich.

I agree

[Reefer22153]

That is as wrong as it gets.

[Reefer22153]

This is a huge debate, but for those like myself who have witnessed it time after time, you cannot convince me to otherwise. These cleaner wrasses literally chase down tangs for their ich. Tangs will turn sideways to get cleaned. Unless you have seen it, you may not believe it.

[sreefs]

This is a huge debate, but for those like myself who have witnessed it time after time, you cannot convince me to otherwise. These cleaner wrasses literally chase down tangs for their ich. Tangs will turn sideways to get cleaned. Unless you have seen it, you may not believe it.

It feels good to the fish, but it does nothing to get rid of the parasite. Not trying to burst your bubble, but cleaners DO NOT CURE ICH.

[Zacktosterone]

It feels good to the fish, but it does nothing to get rid of the parasite. Not trying to burst your bubble, but cleaners DO NOT CURE ICH.

I agree, if they did my friends wouldn't have issues by not quarantining

[reeferstace]

Ich is caused by the protozoan ICHTHYOPTHIRIUS, which is an ectoparasite. ECTOparasite means external parasite as opposed to ENDOparasite which you suggested.

I'm assuming you have never witnessed cleaner wrasses go to work on ich.


:facepalm:

Marine ich is caused by Cryptocaryon irritans. The protozoans you are speaking about cause freshwater ich. Apples and oranges.

:headwally:

[snorvich]

This is a huge debate, but for those like myself who have witnessed it time after time, you cannot convince me to otherwise. These cleaner wrasses literally chase down tangs for their ich. Tangs will turn sideways to get cleaned. Unless you have seen it, you may not believe it.

Debate? Hardly. I have had cleaner wrasse and cleaner shrimp clean my teeth many times (in my 3000 plus dives) and I am reasonably sure I do not have ich which in marine fish is under the skin and not available for consumption. Also, if you use Google Scholar you can find the assays of the stomach contents of cleaner wrasse and cleaner shrimp in various marine biology papers and it does not include marine ich. But if you believe its true, good luck.

[Zacktosterone]

This is a huge debate, but for those like myself who have witnessed it time after time, you cannot convince me to otherwise. These cleaner wrasses literally chase down tangs for their ich. Tangs will turn sideways to get cleaned. Unless you have seen it, you may not believe it.

What you witnessed is ich's life cycle

[wooden_reefer]

Debate? Hardly. I have had cleaner wrasse and cleaner shrimp clean my teeth many times (in my 3000 plus dives) and I am reasonably sure I do not have ich which in marine fish is under the skin and not available for consumption. Also, if you use Google Scholar you can find the assays of the stomach contents of cleaner wrasse and cleaner shrimp in various marine biology papers and it does not include marine ich. But if you believe its true, good luck.

Even if the cleaner wrasse does eat some ich on the fish, it cannot eat all.

The way ich reproduces is very overwhelming in a closed system. Ich comes in ever increasing numbers if ever it gets the upperhand. There would be few for a long period and then explode in population.

The lifecycle of ich and the closed nature of the tank are a very striking set of conditions.