Grayish white fuzz on my rocks [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 01:51 PM

My 380g reef is 4 months old. Went through cyano and green hair algae but cleaned all that up. Lots of hermits, turbos, and a sea hare. Even went urchin for a while.

Water changes and heavy skimming got my rocks clean.

I just started to see hints of coralline... But now I have this light white fuzz (1/8") on my rocks. I have a lot of flow, so I don't think its bacterial. It's not green or long enough to be hair.

?? What is it and how do I get rid of it (other than with a brush)?

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 01:52 PM

I also have a DSB/macro algae farm in my sump on a reverse cycle. I haven't exported any yet.

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 03:35 PM

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 03:44 PM

Refugium macro algae
<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Mobile%20Uploads/018C43E3-DA93-4012-8061-A21FC5477C5F_zpsacywwzjw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Mobile%20Uploads/018C43E3-DA93-4012-8061-A21FC5477C5F_zpsacywwzjw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 018C43E3-DA93-4012-8061-A21FC5477C5F_zpsacywwzjw.jpg"/></a>

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 03:45 PM

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 03:45 PM

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 05:21 PM

Chrysophytes ?

Mache62

11/14/2014, 05:23 PM

I have a friend with exactly the same issue developing in his tank as well. A couple months old, a few fish and some coral. He's been through the diatom stage and now this. Tagging along to see if there is anybody that can help.

jamesamantha

11/14/2014, 05:38 PM

I had that....it sucked. Is that Marco rock or a similar type of rock?

It seemed bacterial in how it looked but it dies off with no light. I replaced my Marco rock and the sand. The new rock was dry rock but had an ocean origin. The Marco is a mined rock. Lots of water changes, lots of gfo, three times lights out for 3 days, and a year later my tank finally looks great.

Michael Hoaster

11/14/2014, 06:39 PM

My guess (and it's just a guess) is dinoflagellates. Amphiprion mentioned that he had them, so you may want to ask him (her?).

It could also be a mixed biofilm. I think bacterial films can photosynthesize, which yours appears to be doing, with the oxygen bubbles.

Have you tested your water to see if anything's out of wack? Some stuff doesn't even need nutrients, once they get established, they can feed themselves.

I'm sure there's someone who's dealt with this, here on RC.

Crash my thread anytime, Karim. I'd still like to see a sketch of your new surge scheme. I still don't understand.

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 06:56 PM

Just got back from my trip overseas- no surge work yet. I'll sketch it

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 06:57 PM

It's concrete rock. I made it myself.

whosurcaddie

11/14/2014, 07:10 PM

Did you happen to use oyster shells when making your rock?

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 07:19 PM

Yes. I've gone through the green hair phase and the cyano phase.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/6B45E405-2D99-4567-BA54-0EB3459E2FBB_zpstqn9z1bq.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/6B45E405-2D99-4567-BA54-0EB3459E2FBB_zpstqn9z1bq.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6B45E405-2D99-4567-BA54-0EB3459E2FBB_zpstqn9z1bq.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/26532538-44BB-4D16-B66D-4A7FA4E52623_zpsonywxzyo.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/26532538-44BB-4D16-B66D-4A7FA4E52623_zpsonywxzyo.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 26532538-44BB-4D16-B66D-4A7FA4E52623_zpsonywxzyo.jpg"/></a>

That's gone with physical removal, skimming, water changes and herbivores. I was on clear rock for about a month. Then this.

If it's oyster shell leaching P and N, that would have been the surge of GHA, right?

whosurcaddie

11/14/2014, 07:33 PM

I was considering making my rock but I read that they can leach phos over the lifetime of the tank. There is a new recipe now that skips on the shells for this very reason.

jamesamantha

11/14/2014, 09:13 PM

Mine just wouldn't stop growing until I replaced the rock.

If you are committed to that rock I had limited success with 3 days of lights out. Gfo and water changes. Peroxide dosing seemed to help a bit.

You can scrub it off but it will come back. I left mine in for a year before I finally gave up on it. Maybe your rock will come around for you better than mine did.

It is weird stuff. Very frustrating.

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 10:38 PM

If I cover it up with coralline fast enough, it should sort itself out?

karimwassef

11/14/2014, 11:01 PM

Maybe 13 hours of 1200W of Metal Halide is a lot of energy for a near bare rock tank.

I am trying to accelerate my coralline growth.

Michael Hoaster

11/14/2014, 11:48 PM

Are you maintaining high enough calcium levels? You've got a kick-*** kalk reactor, don't you?

Have you seen anything eating your fuzz? It seems like something would chow down on it. Maybe mithrax crabs?

But that doesn't stop the cause. You may be able to run experiments to rule out causes, one by one. For example, put a fake rock in there without oyster shells, to eliminate them as the cause.

karimwassef

11/15/2014, 12:36 AM

The emerald crabs do eat it, so do all the tangs and snails and urchins.
The kalk reactor is going strong. pH is 8.25, Alk is 8.5 and Ca is 420

The difficulty with my tank is the shear surface area. I need an army of herbivores

karimwassef

11/15/2014, 12:37 AM

My refugium chaeto is overflowing but I haven't removed any. They're just swarming with pods and worms. If I knew how to extract them, I'd give the chaeto away.

Fishmommy

11/15/2014, 08:06 AM

I have that too in patches. I have been assuming dino, but it could of course be Chrysophytes as mentioned. Reduce silica if chrysophytes. Dino has a different cure, detailed in many threads. Either way, it's nasty stuff.

Michael Hoaster

11/15/2014, 08:27 AM

Sounds like you're due for some exporting. You can probably shake a lot of pods out as you remove the chaeto.

Herbivores do a lot, but they don't address the cause.

karimwassef

11/15/2014, 04:16 PM

Coincidentally, my sea hare died??

Fishmommy

11/15/2014, 04:18 PM

Dinos are toxic....could be a coincidence or not

karimwassef

11/15/2014, 04:20 PM

My tangs are eating it. Should I be worried?

Fishmommy

11/15/2014, 04:23 PM

I'm not sure ... I have heard it is worse for inverts

Lavoisier

11/15/2014, 04:48 PM

My tangs are eating it. Should I be worried?

Only if you think it is a hallucinogen. :rollface:

With your macro, if you set up some eggcrate about 1/2 to 1 inch above your water and put the harvested algae on it most of the Copepods will find their way back to the water in 5 or 10 minutes. Give it a good shake and take it to LFS for trade.

karimwassef

11/15/2014, 10:02 PM

Now my emerald crabs are dying...

I guess between the bubbles and invert deaths, the diagnosis is dino? And the deadly kind at that?

karimwassef

11/15/2014, 10:03 PM

Going dark/increasing pH

I'll start exporting the chaeto and doing large changes in the morning.

:(

Michael Hoaster

11/15/2014, 10:31 PM

Sounds like a plan.

Sorry you're having to deal with this. Bummer.

karimwassef

11/15/2014, 10:32 PM

Another interesting datapoint. I have very high flow tank with a dual surge, etc... I also have a massive skimmer.

Last week I travelled overseas and my main circulation pump failed. This stopped my surge flow too as well as disengaging my skimmer ... and the tank went from high flow & oxygenation to minimal flow with only the fans and a couple of surface powerheads that I had installed in case of a breakdown.

Simultaneously, my kalk reactor ran out of media and my pH dropped a 0.15 ...

And we had a cold front that dropped the temperature of the tank from 77 to 72 ...

Perfect storm?

kenneth wolfe

11/15/2014, 11:12 PM

It sounds/looks like die off on your rocks from all the problems listed...I would hold from removing any chaeto from your sump in fact I would go to 24/7 light to help with the nutrient export if it get so dense that it impedes your flow then maybe ..more light in the fuge for better penetration threw the dense cheato = more nutrient export even increasing flow threw the dense macro helps as well.

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 12:49 AM

Yes. I turned all DT lights off and all sump lights on 24/7.

My chaeto is growing out of the water, so I've removed a handful to give it room to grow.

Done a 100g water change. Checked my RODI and my TDS was at 7 so I changed the DI. I've only used about ~2000g so far (only 4months) so this seems premature, but better to prep for the next massive WC.

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 12:52 AM

Fresh SW is at a lower pH ~ 8.1
Used up all my RODI reservoir- unfortunately that's the source for my kalk reactor inlet- so pH is dropping.

Turned the skimmer on 24/7 too- it was on a 12hr cycle to allow plankton to thrive.

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 11:22 AM

So... This stuff grows in the shade? There's more on the bottom than the top?

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Mobile%20Uploads/05EA5735-B95F-479F-AAF4-8B3E1294197F_zpsrurn7znf.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Mobile%20Uploads/05EA5735-B95F-479F-AAF4-8B3E1294197F_zpsrurn7znf.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 05EA5735-B95F-479F-AAF4-8B3E1294197F_zpsrurn7znf.jpg"/></a>

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 11:24 AM

Here's a closeup. Maybe I have two kinds? Or maybe a combo of dino on the top and brown hair on the bottom?

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Mobile%20Uploads/72193F9F-E103-4DEE-B241-8D30BB7F7E99_zpse3ev5q2v.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Mobile%20Uploads/72193F9F-E103-4DEE-B241-8D30BB7F7E99_zpse3ev5q2v.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 72193F9F-E103-4DEE-B241-8D30BB7F7E99_zpse3ev5q2v.jpg"/></a>

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 11:25 AM

The sea urchins are eating it so far

Michael Hoaster

11/16/2014, 11:43 AM

Karim, is it coating all of your fake rock or is it patchy? If it is all over, that points to your rock as the source/cause.

Here's a possible solution: Get the rock out and let it dry and clean it. They get some big, cheap brushes and paint on fiberglass resin, like I did with my wall, and throw some sand on it while it cures, so it doesn't look glossy. You'd need to do both sides of them to really seal 'em up. That would stop whatever's leaching out into your tank. I know it's a huge pain in the @$$, but it should work.

Fishmommy

11/16/2014, 11:45 AM

some say the cure for dinos (if it is dinos) is high Magnesium.
If your rock has no corals, I might just remove it all and soak it in hydrogen peroxide.

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 12:50 PM

My rock is already heavily inhabited. The holes I drilled as coral anchors lead into caverns inside the cloth rock/plastic. At night, I see worms and pods using them as inlets and exits.

My real nutrient source is the surface of my sand. I can't vaccum my sand surface due to the complexity of the suspended rock and the fine grain of the sand. So fish detritus builds up on the sand surface. The flow from my surges moves them around but it can't move them up to the overflow. So, there's a detritus suspension that hovers across the sandbed.

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 12:53 PM

I got horseshoe crabs and a big tiger cucumber. I'm not sure they eat enough detritus to make a difference.

Big water changes help, so does the large skimmer... But without getting the detritus into the sand for the bacteria to consume... Or in the overflow for the macro farm to use... it'll keep building up.

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 12:53 PM

Magnesium? I can raise that pretty easily.

Fishmommy

11/16/2014, 01:07 PM

read the many threads on dinoflagellates. the way out is long and hard.

Michael Hoaster

11/16/2014, 02:20 PM

I'd definitely check out what Fishmommy said.

I have my doubts that your sand/detritus is the cause. If it was, that's where the fuzz would be. The fuzz grows where its' food is.

Cukes are great for cleaning sandbeds. I think 3D-Reef has several large ones. And there lot's of other detrivores out there.

Ultimately though, you need to find the cause, and fix it.

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 03:01 PM

This bloom only happened when my waterflow was compromised due to my main pump failing. No flow, no aeration, no skimming.

I think bacterial die off did it and rebuilding the bacterial base should kill it

karimwassef

11/16/2014, 03:09 PM

I've read the dino posts.

I just got out of a nasty war with severe hair but I kicked it. My hair was 6" long and over all my rocks. When it died off, I'm sure it left enough organic matter for this stuff to root and the bacterial death made it bloom.

The fact that this grows in the shade is strange. No one else reports that for dino.

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 02:17 AM

The kalk (8.4 target) + darkness + massive WC (2x100g in 2 days on my 380g)+ heavy wet skimming (80g skimmate) + Mg increase + 24/7 refugium lights + 7 urchins (sluggish but alive so far) ... seems to be working.

I basically threw the kitchen sink at it. The GAC bucket will be here on Wednesday.

HOWEVER - I am convinced that I have two distinct problems. The dino has the bubbles on the rocks facing the light. They're getting walloped. But the fine translucent fuzz in the shade isn't effected...

This stuff isn't slimy or bubbly or even brown. It's fine fuzz and I don't know what it is.

Help.

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 02:18 AM

Michael Hoaster

11/17/2014, 12:29 PM

Sounds like you're making progress.

I have some thoughts, but you may not like hearing them. I know I wouldn't! And since I'm not there, I really don't have a clue! Everything I suggest could be completely WRONG. All I have is what you've posted, and my own experiences. But I want to help if I can. I'm not trying to sound superior or anything. In fact I think you are a genius. But you're human like the rest of us, and sometimes we're too close to the problem to see it. So here comes the 'tough love'!

Everything you're doing addresses the symptoms, not THE CAUSE. What happens when you discontinue these 'band-aids'? The problem with band-aiding symptoms is, they add up. Eventually you find yourself in a no win situation, where you can't band-aid one thing because it will cancel out a previous band-aid. Then you have to trash all the work you've done and start over. Does that make sense? Do you remember that old commercial where they said, "You can pay me now or pay me later"? You may be in that situation with your tank. Hell, I may be in that situation with my tank!

If I were in your situation, I'd STOP, take a step back, take a breath and THINK. Carefully observe and make deductions, and ask yourself, "what is the cause?".

I don't think your perfect storm killed your bacteria-quite the opposite. You may just have a bacterial bloom of a much less desirable kind. It may be there because you removed the urchin band-aid. Is the fuzz on the sand? Is it on the glass? The plumbing? In the fuge? Same questions for your previous algae outbreak. Are there commonalities? What deductions can you make from your answers?

After looking at the pics you posted, I see that your rock is very consistently coated with it, which from here, points to your rock. I really hope I'm wrong! But let's say you come to the same conclusion. What's next? You could disconnect your huge fuge and use it as a temporary home for your fish and corals, while you role up your sleeves and get down to business. Fix (seal) or completely redo your rock. Man that would suck! But you've done it once. You can do it again-and better this time.

That's one sucky scenario! But it's my best guess. Hopefully you'll arrive at a different conclusion. Put that big 'ol brain to work!

Good luck!

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 01:25 PM

The bubbly brown stuff grows on everything. I'm assuming this is the dino. It grows on the glass and some on the sand where flow is sheltered.

The fuzz is only on the bottom side of the rock (concrete and live rock). This is more curiosity than parasite since none of my coral or fish care about what's under the rock.

Even if the concrete was a root cause, I would wait on it to leach out and use scrubbers/water changes. As a learning, I would look at using a Lanthanum Chloride bath post-curing. I'd also try growing coralline in a sun-lit reservoir in the backyard before adding to the tank.

I did run tests with the rock for three weeks in RODI water and phosphate levels were <0.1 ppm.

Having overcome extreme GHA and cyano, I can trace the causes to excess nutrients from my garage and over feeding with large quantities of phyto. Water changes and scrubbing fixed this.

If the source is in my rocks, then why didn't I get GHA again? What caused a different bloom this time? That's what I'm taking a big step back to consider.

My mosquito population dropped and I stopped feeding phyto. All was good.

Then I went on my trip and the tank circulation stopped for a week- especially compared to my usual intense 40g surge every few minutes. No skimming and no aeration... That's new to my tank and so is this bloom.

Causation or coincidence? I'm seeing causation.

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 01:29 PM

The fuzz is bothering me more than my tank inhabitants. Mostly because I don't understand it. It's not photosynthetic since it grows in the shade. It look more like fungus than algae.

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 01:36 PM

As for apparent hubris ... Learning only comes from accepting that we all start from a point of ignorance. I accept it and I'm open to learning.

:)

The data is inconclusive. I have one more variable to share. Before I left, I got a large polyp rock covered in tunicates. It blew a lot of strange stuff the first time it got hit by a surge. I suspect it was the transport for the dino infestation.

But with nutrients in the water, between dino and GHA... Who wins and why?

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 07:26 PM

48hrs of treatment. It looks like the dino has collapsed(?) into dust or sand?

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/58F88EA3-74C4-43DA-9E86-129302A6FFCF_zpsrxonntyu.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/58F88EA3-74C4-43DA-9E86-129302A6FFCF_zpsrxonntyu.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 58F88EA3-74C4-43DA-9E86-129302A6FFCF_zpsrxonntyu.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C5AD8999-8717-4993-A5A7-0610AEDB6E71_zpsnvyjcvnl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C5AD8999-8717-4993-A5A7-0610AEDB6E71_zpsnvyjcvnl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C5AD8999-8717-4993-A5A7-0610AEDB6E71_zpsnvyjcvnl.jpg"/></a>

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karimwassef

11/17/2014, 07:28 PM

But the fuzz is still there on the underside.

Michael Hoaster

11/17/2014, 08:20 PM

"Even if the concrete was a root cause, I would wait on it to leach out and use scrubbers/water changes."
- I wonder how long that would take. If it's the oyster shells, doesn't that leach phosphate for like, decades? I don't know but I do know I couldn't wait it out.

"I did run tests with the rock for three weeks in RODI water and phosphate levels were <0.1 ppm."
- How useful is this info right now? How about a new test? Maybe mix up a vessel of fresh saltwater. Take out a piece of your rock and scrub off the fuzz and put it in the vessel. Let it sit in there for a day or two, then test that water for phosphates. THAT might rule out your rock as the cause. Just testing your tank water may not be useful, because phosphate leaching from your rock would be sucked up by the fuzz before it could get into your bulk water. That's why I suggested you scrub off the test rock. Lot's of people with algae problems test their water, only to find pristine water conditions.

"If the source is in my rocks, then why didn't I get GHA again? What caused a different bloom this time? That's what I'm taking a big step back to consider."
- Agreed! Those are great questions. So what's different this time? Your perfect storm? Your new addition? Maybe your rock is running out of phosphate, so it won't support the 'higher' GHA, but will support the fuzz? Did the urchins remove all traces of GHA, so the fuzz could move in? Does it even matter whether it's GHA, dino, or cyano? IMO what really matters is WHAT IS THEIR FOOD SOURCE - THE CAUSE.

"My mosquito population dropped and I stopped feeding phyto. All was good."
- Are you sure? You also scrubbed, did water changes and introduced an army of herbivores. Could they have masked a problem that never went away? Constructing a timeline from your threads might help.

I think testing your rock is a good start. Controlled experiments!

Have you considered posting in the advanced topic forum? Or the chemistry one? Widen the net, so to speak. Invite some 'brainiacs' to the party. There's got to be some geekier geeks than us who could help!

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 08:55 PM

Remember that my rock is hollow on the inside. It's PVC and eggcrate so there is only a few mm shell of concrete cloth. So the amount of oyster shell is limited.

My tank also has a fully exposed sand bed 3' x 8' and the accumulation of detritus is untrapped because there are no rocks to get stuck under or against. I think this is a much more likely source. I've been feeding the tank for months and the resulting poop is not exportable... The sand was beautiful and while but with a storm of detritus that I could not remove...

Until my main pump failed. Then the detritus settled on the sand bed ... Etc... This was the start of the bloom.

My skimmer did nothing for a week after generating 2 quarts of gunk weekly. What happens when that mass of DOCs isn't exported. My macro scrubber was likewise offline since its in the sump. No surge, no flow, no aeration.

I'm surprised the tank didn't crash given the extremes it went from. I can only attribute it to the lack of feeding when I travel and the overall size (380g) relative to the bioload (4 fish). But the months' worth of detritus was still there... Lurking and waiting.

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 08:57 PM

So... Back to the question. What non-photosynthetic white fuzz grows underneath my suspended rocks?

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 09:24 PM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1620165

???

Michael Hoaster

11/17/2014, 10:04 PM

My guess is that all the fuzz is the same thing. Maybe the 'sunlit' fuzz exhausted the food source quicker. The next question is will it come back? Why wouldn't you test the rock to eliminate it as the cause?

The detritus buildup is worrisome. You need to find a way to export it. Detrivores will consume and incorporate into their tissue, and recycle it. Not export. That might be enough. If one dies, it releases those nutrients back into the tank. You said you can't vacuum it up, and the surges don't push it out your overflow. Maybe that should be a priority when you redo your surge scheme. Or you could add a layer of coarser sand on top, so you can vacuum.

If you think detritus is the cause, then maybe you should test that. I guess you could substitute it for the rock in the test I mentioned. Or you could test it some other way.

karimwassef

11/17/2014, 10:12 PM

Detrivores that could turn it into DOCs for my skimmer or scrubber would be a good solution. I got two cucumbers but the surface area is so large

Lavoisier

11/19/2014, 05:38 PM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1620165

???

Yes, this was an interesting thread that seems to fit your experience. Will you try the Methylene Blue test? At this point are your fish or corals stressed? If not, then I would be hesitant to take radical steps.

karimwassef

11/19/2014, 05:53 PM

Most of the light facing dino has turned to dust... Literally looks like sand on the rocks.

The fuzz below is still there which supports my theory that there are two separate issues.

I'm turning the lights back on and making another massive 100g change and add a kilogram of GAC.

I'm also considering LaCl injected into my skimmer's recirculation loop.

Lavoisier

11/21/2014, 05:14 PM

karimwassef

11/21/2014, 05:22 PM

0.1ppm

But with algae, macro algae, and dino, the reading is only the remaining unconsumed P, so not an indication of what they're living on.

The macro grows a "softball" in volume every week... So a low P is deceiving.

karimwassef

11/22/2014, 09:58 AM

Ok. The dinos are out of the DT. There are a few stragglers around the overflow but that's probably a function of accessibility by my herbivores. It took a week.

3 days of darkness
Huge water changes (300g ~ 75%) in one week
High pH 8.5
100% macro refugium lights on
100% skimmer on / ultra wet export
More water motion
2 cups of fresh GAC

I still have the fuzz on the rock bottoms but the tangs are munching on it.

I think the root cause is my main pump failing creating a cascade of nutrient buildup and bacterial die off.

I did lose some snails which is why I believe the water changes were so important. The toxins released need to be exported. Some sick snails and urchins actually recovered after the first two massive WCs and heavy skimming.