Dragonet goby

[ThisCityIsDead]

Hey guys. I purchased a mandarin yesterday. It is still a juvenile. It's small. This morning when I woke up, I found its tail nipped and it was breathing a bit heavier than last night. It was on the sand bed, still is, and doesn't really swim anywhere until a hermit crab or shrimp comes near it. Is this normal behavior for these little guys. I know they mostly scavenge for pods but this one hasn't really been searching around the rocks.

[fishhuman]

How big is your tank, how long has it been set up? Mandarins need 90 gallons to be able to sustain themselves and find enough to eat. The tank needs to be set up for atleast 8 months with liverock in it( not including cycle time). I have found that my mandarin is always sluggish and a different color after the lights go on so it may be normal.

[Sk8r]

It's in serious trouble. If they don't eat every few seconds, they're not doing what nature intended, and something's attacking him. If you have a sump with pods, put him into it and hope he gets well enough to return him to the store, or just beg the store to take him back for free. He's going to die otherwise.

[ThisCityIsDead]

Tabk is 75. I was doing some research and people did okay with even a 55g. I have had the tank for 4 months now, but I have had coral and one anem (two now) for the past month. Everything is doing splendid. I only have two other fish (clowns) which one was added a week from Friday and the other was added yesterday night (with a rose BTA and manderine.

[Sk8r]

Clown might have done the tail nip. The tank SHOULD have pods, by what you say, and you can indeed have a mandy in a 55 if you have 20 gallons of mature fuge supplying it.

What you say leads me to suspect the mandy may not have been eating where he was. In good health they never stop moving and eating...five-count and nip, five-count and nip, an hour before the lights and often an hour after, and they tend to be completely oblivious to threats or other fish---so they start eating when they land and never stop so long as they're healthy.

i hope to goodness the little fellow makes it, but it sounds as if the fish store wasn't doing so great with him either. If you get another, down the road, watch him, and if he isn't eating pretty well on an unbroken five-beat prowl and nip, he's not healthy.

[ThisCityIsDead]

Clown might have done the tail nip. The tank SHOULD have pods, by what you say, and you can indeed have a mandy in a 55 if you have 20 gallons of mature fuge supplying it.

What you say leads me to suspect the mandy may not have been eating where he was. In good health they never stop moving and eating...five-count and nip, five-count and nip, an hour before the lights and often an hour after, and they tend to be completely oblivious to threats or other fish---so they start eating when they land and never stop so long as they're healthy.

i hope to goodness the little fellow makes it, but it sounds as if the fish store wasn't doing so great with him either. If you get another, down the road, watch him, and if he isn't eating pretty well on an unbroken five-beat prowl and nip, he's not healthy.


Best advice. I did not see him eat at the LFS. I just saw him hiding most of the time. So far his breathing has gone down, but still does not move much unless another critter comes near it:/.

[snorvich]

The fish was likely collected using cyanide. Sadly, they never recover.

[ThisCityIsDead]

Cyanide? What do you mean? I defiantly found the perpetrator:/. It was the clownfish and coral bandit. The coral bandit caught it using its claw while it tried swimming away. It is still alive, but I'm not sure for how long...:/

[Sk8r]

Oh, my. Coral Banded Shrimp are fish-eaters. Not safe for small fish. Trade that fellow for a peppermint shrimp, much safer. I agree: cyanide is a possibility. Unscrupulous collectors try to put it over on distributors, and can get away with it if there aren't enough complaints. The fish will die, but slowly, so that the deaths are blamed on poor husbandry, shipping accidents, just attrition. One of the ugliest things in this hobby, and it's international, so it's hard to do anything about it---the blame gets passed hand to hand.

[ThisCityIsDead]

The fish died this afternoon... I saw the banded ram into it and catch it with its pinchers. I was moving rocks so I tapped on the shrimp and it let go, but the poor manderin had a crushed gill. It then just laid on the sand bed breathing slowly. When I stepped out, the banded was eating the fish. Ugh. I wanted to kill the stupid shrimp...-_- frustrating creature.

[m0nkie]

I love bandit coral shrimp.. but it's just too dangerous for a small fish tank. I'd take it out and trade it for something else. Blood red fire shrimp are very beautiful and safe! hides most of the time though.

if your tank is mature enough for a mandarin, I suggest finding a LFS that has one in its sump or chaeto area. These fish rarely eat in the store. But if you find one in a chaeto zone hunting, it'll have a much bigger chance of surviving. here in LA, it's pretty easy to find one like that.

[MondoBongo]

sorry for your loss.

definitely kick that coral banded shrimp to the curb, or if you have a sump, put him there. they're too mean to slow moving fish. i would also caution with the anemone and dragonets. they can be stung and injured by them. some have had success keeping those two together, some have not. just something to consider.

are you running a sump/fuge for you tank? i'll be honest, 4 months is pretty fast to be adding a dragonet in my opinion. 6 months would be better, a year would be ideal. i would also strongly encourage you, if you're not running a sump/fuge, to set one up. these guys are prolific pod hunters, and can decimate them in short order.

as always, here is my standard list of links for pre-dragonet reading:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2374330
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2367532
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2363996

they're fantastic fish, hands down my favorite, and given the right set of conditions actually easy to keep. getting to, and maintaining, those conditions can be tricky though.

if you decide to get another one in the future, choosing a healthy specimen is paramount. make sure that it is moving around the tank and "pecking" at things. this is how they forage. it should be active and focused. gliding around nearly oblivious to everything else. if you don't see it alert and eating, don't buy it. as steve and skr8 said, this is often a sign of cyanide captured fish.

second, take a good look at the body of the fish. due to their specialized feeding requirements these guys often come in quite underfed, in some cases on the brink of starvation. you want to make sure that the stomach isn't sucked in, and that there are no sharp lines running down the size. a well fed mandy looks like a little technicolor sausage.

finally, keep an eye on the lower back and the tail. some collection methods can include harpooning these poor little guys, which can lead to injury and paralysis. just something to note.

picking a good specimen aside, i highly recommend preparing supplemental food for your new arrival. stocking your tank with pods, culturing pods, culturing baby brine shrimp (nauplii), making pod piles, setting up a productive reufigium, making a diner or PaulB style feeding station, are all excellent ideas to help increase the chances of long term survival for your new friend. the pods in the tank will always be the primary food source, but supplemental feeding can go a long way to helping maintain stability and buffer against any unforeseen circumstance.

as an illustration, here is my girly the day i got her in the acclimation box:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EF6KZxibAZk/U3n-aZ0OuTI/AAAAAAAAAtI/gynhidwttDQ/w1127-h845-no/IMG_20130810_163932.jpg

she was pretty skinny. not dangerously so at that point, but not far off.

here she is about 6 months after we got her:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jmChBDozdqI/U8bO_K5N8vI/AAAAAAAAAuw/apgvOpu2m1E/w478-h845-no/IMAG0479.jpg

quite a remarkable difference.

here she is just last night, had her well over a year now:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZaMhJNxEPDw/VGoUJ6L1OCI/AAAAAAAAA9o/aIze23vVeDk/w478-h845-no/IMAG1103.jpg

[ThisCityIsDead]

Thanks for the links and the great advice everyone! I do have a sump but I have an UV sterilizer running. Not sure if the pods will survive that. The LFS gave me some of his moss/algae that house the pods. I placed that in the dump along with live rocks. I don't have a spare heater down there or lights, so I'm not sure how the CBS will do.

MondoBongo, I love that fish of yours. Now that you pointed those things out, my dragonet had all those symptoms. When I first saw it at the LFS it was hiding behind the tank and not really being active. It was so thin and its stomach was sucked in. I thought it was normal since the LFS guy had just gotten him that day.

That anenomne you have, with the neon tips, is that a condy?

[MondoBongo]

thanks!

i've heard some varying reports, but i have read some articles that would suggest pods have a decent survival rate when going through a standard UV sterilizer. most of the information i've found about it has been anecdotal though, so i would be very interested in getting better data on it, if it is out there.

sadly a lot of these guys come in to the store in pretty rough shape. so finding and picking a good specimen can be tricky at times. now that you know what to look for though, you will have a much easier time spotting the ones in better shape.

is the stuff your LFS gave you wiry? it is probably Chaetomorpha, also often called Chaeto.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3468+2190+2401&pcatid=2401

makes a great home for pods, and also does an excellent job sucking up excess nitrates from the water. it's good stuff all around. however if is in the sump without light, it will end up dying. it needs reasonable light to keep growing. although, it can do quite well under even the normal 6500K CFL bulbs you would use for a normal lamp. there are loads of lighting options that are cheap/easy to use in your sump/fuge area.

as far as heat, since the sump is all part of the main tank system, the temperature should be the same as the display. i have my heater in my sump, but it shouldn't make a difference if it is in the sump or the display. everything should reach equilibrium as the water moves between the display and sump area.

that's actually not an Anemone, both of those pictured are corals. Euphyllia to be exact. the one on the left is a torch, and the other is a frogspawn.

[ThisCityIsDead]

No. It isn't chaeto. It has tiny leaves and it is all tangled together, but it looks nothing like the chaeto. It's actually a darker forest green compared to the more line green color the chaeto has.

I really want a torch and a frogspawn, but they're so popular that I can never get one. I need to take the condy back. I fear it may eat fish or hurt the other inverts/nems.

Would a simple clip on light work for the sump?

I once placed a sally lightfoot crab down there and it died two days later. I'm not sure if it was because it was cooler down there.

[MondoBongo]

maybe a type of caulerpa then? just a heads up, if it is caulerpa, some kinds can "go sexual" and have a potential negative impact on the tank. not saying that's what you have, because i don't know, but something to keep in mind. it's fine to keep, but you just want to watch for the signs of it getting ready to spawn. again, if it is caulerpa.

simple clip on light would probably work. i've seen people get clip on lights with 40 watt CFL bulbs and use them to great effect. there are also a variety of aquarium specific options that may work for you.

have you temped your sump? it shouldn't be that much different from the display.

out of curiosity, why don't you have your heater in the sump?

[m0nkie]

No. It isn't chaeto. It has tiny leaves and it is all tangled together, but it looks nothing like the chaeto. It's actually a darker forest green compared to the more line green color the chaeto has.

I really want a torch and a frogspawn, but they're so popular that I can never get one. I need to take the condy back. I fear it may eat fish or hurt the other inverts/nems.

Would a simple clip on light work for the sump?

I once placed a sally lightfoot crab down there and it died two days later. I'm not sure if it was because it was cooler down there.

for your sump, get yourself any light thats 5000-6500k. prefer 6500. any home depot clip on bulbs work.

[ThisCityIsDead]

No. It's not a cauldron either. Lol. I'll have to take a picture of it when I get home.

I don't have the heater in the sump because I'm having issues with the overflow. It sometimes doesn't work and it makes my tank overflow. For whatever reason the overflow stops working. It's like it catches an air bubble and the water doesn't drain.

[MondoBongo]

Ah I gotcha. That's a pain in the butt.

On the algae front I'm going to guess halimeda, and that's all the different types of algae I know. Lol.

[ShannyG]

On a slightly related note, I bought a red scooter dragonet after the LFS guy assured me he would take prepared foods. I wanted him to eat more naturally though and I have been seeding my tank with BBS once a day. I see after a couple of weeks of adding BBS that he hunts and pecks all day long, so he must be finding something. That didn't happen when I first got him. He does take frozen and pellets readily or I wouldn't have bought him. My tank is only 25g so I will continue to add BBS daily for him to track down.

[ThisCityIsDead]

Would it work if I were to press some food onto the rocks? Will the dragonet a peck at it and eat it?

[ThisCityIsDead]

Ah I gotcha. That's a pain in the butt.

On the algae front I'm going to guess halimeda, and that's all the different types of algae I know. Lol.


297797

297798

This is what I have mondo lol.

Does anyone know why I keep getting this algae...? I have snails, a sea hare and now a starfish. It seems to come back every time I scrub it... (Every 3 days it shows up again). [

[m0nkie]

Would it work if I were to press some food onto the rocks? Will the dragonet a peck at it and eat it?

I have had no luck with anything except live food (pods, shrimp) or nutramar. I have heard people with dragonet eating pellets. But that's not their natural food source, can't be healthy for the fish.

[Sk8r]

No. A dragonet's a creature of small brain, and he's wired to eat just about one thing, and to recognize that one thing as food. I've had them for many, many years, and they just don't routinely eat anything but copepods. I've seen some that will eat pellet now and again, but right back to pods, and that's probably what they're healthiest eating.

I recommend cheatomorpha as the best for raising pods. It shouldn't be lime green, however: what is, isn't getting enough light of the right sort. Mine lives in a dark basement under a 6500k strong spotlight, and is extremely dark green.

Losing the mandy wasn't your fault, be that understood.