Lionfish breeding is now illegal

[Ohioreefer7]

As of November 26th, the breeding of lionfish will be illegal. I had no idea people were breeding them.

http://npbc.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2014/11/18/breeding-of-lionfish-will-be-prohibited-starting-nov-26/

[billsreef]

No one is breeding them. FL just wants to be sure no one in the future does, and risk having them released in the wild to add to the current problem ;)

[F4talreeefer]

It's almost sad that we have go resort to such measures to keep people from doing such dumb things.

[billsreef]

Sadly, what FL is doing now in terms of outlawing import of lionfish and breeding of lionfish amounts to closing the barn doors after the cows all left.

[Ohioreefer7]

Not only are lionfish outside their native range they are also breaking the law by breeding in FlorIda waters.

[swift_scorpion]

Not only are lionfish outside their native range they are also breaking the law by breeding in FlorIda waters.

:lmao:

[Tweaked]

And unfortunately there is no fixing the issue. They are found from the gulf to Maine, shallow waters and to scientist surprise, very deep waters. So so sad, what is happening.

[CuzzA]

Well us humans have the uncanny ability to decimate wild species. We just have to spread the word. While irradiation will be impossible, everyone should be prepared to kill one while at the beach, on the boat, or diving. And we need every restaurant in America to offer Lionfish on the menu. Besides, it's delicious.

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah183/CuzzaBay/a0db56b657b4749d5fc07b32382d1cbd_zps5c641cb2.jpg

Filleting, Cleaning and Preparing Lionfish to Eat (http://lionfish.co/cleaning-and-preparing-lionfish-to-eat/)

Lionfish Recipes (http://www.lionfishhunters.org/Recipes.html)

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah183/CuzzaBay/b19ead9f3a750b9a4e35fda4e487644c_zps8ede8907.jpg

Lionfish Hunting Gear (http://www.lionfishhunting.com/choosing-a-lionfish-containment-unit-ezp-16.html)

[billsreef]

While I do see a population difference between frequently dived reefs and not frequently dived ones, I don't see us ever getting enough divers in the water to put a substantial dent in the population. They also don't take hook and line, and live in reef structure that is not conducive to commercial netting. Leaves divers with spears the only reliable fishing method. The market price would have be rather high to make that a truly viable commercial fishing method with enough divers to make a dent.

[CuzzA]

While I do see a population difference between frequently dived reefs and not frequently dived ones, I don't see us ever getting enough divers in the water to put a substantial dent in the population. They also don't take hook and line, and live in reef structure that is not conducive to commercial netting. Leaves divers with spears the only reliable fishing method. The market price would have be rather high to make that a truly viable commercial fishing method with enough divers to make a dent.


I don't know Bill... Look at the California Sea Urchin. Once regarded as a pest to kelp, it's now a multi million dollar industry for Uni and as a result populations are suffering. They are caught by hand. Obviously plucking an urchin off a rock is easier than spearing a Lionfish, but if someone puts a price tag on them and restaurants learn of their great table fare, I think people will create the business needed to supply demand. It may take 10 years, but it could happen.

[billsreef]

The Ca urchins have a rather restricted habitat. Makes a huge difference. With the lionfish we have something that will live far up estuaries, nearly into fresh water, and out to great depths of 400' or more.

[TreyK]

Why wont they take hook and line?

You honestly think if I swam a live bait fish in front of ones head it wouldn't take a swing?

i find that hard to believe!

[billsreef]

Likely has to do with their habit of waiting for dinner to come close to them, instead of going and looking for dinner.

[Bluetangclan]

Cuzza: They might taste good, but that is one of the nastiest presentations for a fish I have seen.

[DasCamel]

Lionfish Sushi viable?

[CuzzA]

The Ca urchins have a rather restricted habitat. Makes a huge difference. With the lionfish we have something that will live far up estuaries, nearly into fresh water, and out to great depths of 400' or more.

True, but if you put a value on anything and create demand, us humans will exploit it.

Gold for example serves no purpose for human life support, but people demand it and deem it is valuable. Therefore, we will literally move mountains to get it. Perhaps my urchin and gold examples aren't the best, but my point is clear.

Cuzza: They might taste good, but that is one of the nastiest presentations for a fish I have seen.

Haha, most people don't like the "head still on" presentation. It's not my dish or photo, I just used it as an illustration because a picture of a typical Lionfish filet doesn't really get the point across.

I take back my "Urchin are easier to catch than Lionfish" statement. Clearly, they've let their spines get to their head.

This video was posted in another thread in my local forum today.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JnAbtkMdCoI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Ohioreefer7]

I am no expert but it seems to me that the pollution from people is worse than lionfish. I was diving in Cancun a year ago and the divesite had no lionfish at all yet the corals were in bad shape and there was algae overgrowing the reef and few fish. I went to Belize on a remote dive spot and there were tons of lionfish yet there tons of fish and the corals were really healthy. I think the difference was that the dive site in Cancun had a lot more tourists and hotels dumping pollution into the water whIle the dive site in Belize was really far from the tourist area and took a long boat ride to get to. That makes me think humans are worse than lionfish to the environment.

[CuzzA]

I am no expert but it seems to me that the pollution from people is worse than lionfish. I was diving in Cancun a year ago and the divesite had no lionfish at all yet the corals were in bad shape and there was algae overgrowing the reef and few fish. I went to Belize on a remote dive spot and there were tons of lionfish yet there tons of fish and the corals were really healthy. I think the difference was that the dive site in Cancun had a lot more tourists and hotels dumping pollution into the water whIle the dive site in Belize was really far from the tourist area and took a long boat ride to get to. That makes me think humans are worse than lionfish to the environment.


I won't disagree with you're point, but that's another conversation. The problem is they are decimating juvenile game fish on both the reefs and estuaries here in Florida. They don't belong here, there's no natural predators and eventually our ecosystem and commercial/recreational fisheries will pay the price. From an economical standpoint, if we lose too much stock in Grouper, Snapper, Snook, Tarpon, etc. our government will not hesitate to ban sport fishing which will severely hurt tourism and all the Captains in our state. This of course is all speculation as we don't know how much damage they're doing.

[running scott]

We'll they can be caught on hook and line. That's how I was able to remove the one I used to have in my tank, but billsreef may be correct in that they are not commonly caught

[ColtonMeng]

Just did a two tank dive in Puerto Rico last weekend, only spotted two at one reef, none in a federal reserve reef. DM tried to spear one, but it was quite close to a nice patch of SPS. woulda ended up breaking the reef to bits with a manual spear.

Both dives were awesome. Sat next to a sea turtle (~2 ft. away) while he was happily chomping down some seagrass.

Colton

[Raul-7]

So the same predators they naturally have in the Pacific don't predate on them in the Atlantic?

[jdhuyvetter]

Sadly, what FL is doing now in terms of outlawing import of lionfish and breeding of lionfish amounts to closing the barn doors after the cows all left.

Only true of P. volitans. They banned all Pterois species. So now, it is illegal for me to get my favorite, P. radiata. While justified with volitans, in regards to the other lionfish species, I think this is a knee jerk reaction.

[ace_92101]

CuzzA,

I don't feel that having every person in the water killing lion fish is the answer. Just my 2 cents.

[billsreef]

True, but if you put a value on anything and create demand, us humans will exploit it.

Gold for example serves no purpose for human life support, but people demand it and deem it is valuable. Therefore, we will literally move mountains to get it. Perhaps my urchin and gold examples aren't the best, but my point is clear.

The reef structure is protected from the damage that would be done by the sort of commercial fishing effort that is most destructive to a fish population. The lionfish need such a targeted effort, and exist to such depths and variation in habitat (much of which is protected such as the reef and mangroves) that I just don't realistically see a commercial effort that will ever put a real hurting on the invasive lionfish population. Note, I actually would love to be proved wrong.

I take back my "Urchin are easier to catch than Lionfish" statement. Clearly, they've let their spines get to their head.

This video was posted in another thread in my local forum today.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JnAbtkMdCoI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Wild :eek1: I've not seen mass congregations in open space like that in the Miami and Keys areas I've been diving.

We'll they can be caught on hook and line. That's how I was able to remove the one I used to have in my tank, but billsreef may be correct in that they are not commonly caught

In the tank they are conditioned to been fed by us, hence things that work in our tanks might not work in the wild. It would be great if someone found a bait or lure that actually worked for lions in the wild.

So the same predators they naturally have in the Pacific don't predate on them in the Atlantic?

Those Pacific predators don't live in the Atlantic ;) The predatory fish native to the Atlantic just don't tend to recognize lionfish as prey. Once a blue moon one hears of a large grouper or shark eating one, but it's still a rare event.

Only true of P. volitans. They banned all Pterois species. So now, it is illegal for me to get my favorite, P. radiata. While justified with volitans, in regards to the other lionfish species, I think this is a knee jerk reaction.

Good point. I was forgetting about other Lionfish species.

[CuzzA]

Bill hit the nail on the head. At this point banning them from the aquarium trade is a "feel like we're doing something good" reactionary non-solution. In fact, keeping them available for the aquarium trade makes more sense as collectors would help decrease populations.

Nevertheless, they are a new species to the Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf. For thousands of years animals have evolved to eat certain things. Now sharks and grouper see them for the first time and likely don't view them as prey. Or at least see those spines and choose not to engage it even though they can easily eat them.

It's no different than if you were walking down a back road and saw an orange tree and some unknown fruit tree next to each other, which would you pick to eat? That unknown fruit could be deadly and is not worth the chance.

Here's a LINK (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/sg132) to more research done by The Univeristy of Florida Gators. ;) This outlines the large congregations they're finding in Florida waters.

And another LINK (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/04/26/world/science-health-world/scientists-find-natural-predator-lionfish/#.VG0lyIy9KSM) reporting The University of Florida Gators ;) are having success training nurse sharks and groupers to eat them.

And sorry, I disagree with the not killing Lionfish post. If someone sees a Lionfish or a Python in Florida, they should kill it. Then eat the fish and make a new belt out of the Python.

[Kaman8]

Why do they not want the lion fish in Florida ? What's the problem with lion Fish?

[Kaman8]

True, but if you put a value on anything and create demand, us humans will exploit it.

Gold for example serves no purpose for human life support, but people demand it and deem it is valuable. Therefore, we will literally move mountains to get it. Perhaps my urchin and gold examples aren't the best, but my point is clear.



Haha, most people don't like the "head still on" presentation. It's not my dish or photo, I just used it as an illustration because a picture of a typical Lionfish filet doesn't really get the point across.

I take back my "Urchin are easier to catch than Lionfish" statement. Clearly, they've let their spines get to their head.

This video was posted in another thread in my local forum today.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JnAbtkMdCoI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It's really horrible how they catch the lion fish in this video.

[m0nkie]

Why do they not want the lion fish in Florida ? What's the problem with lion Fish?

lionfish have no natural predator in FL and eats up all the small juvi reef fish... something like 80% of them within a few months.

posted by someone else in a similar thread.
http://www.nature.com/news/invasive-species-control-bounty-hunters-1.15916

[Kaman8]

lionfish have no natural predator in FL and eats up all the small juvi reef fish... something like 80% of them within a few months.

posted by someone else in a similar thread.
http://www.nature.com/news/invasive-species-control-bounty-hunters-1.15916

Are there no sharks in Florida? Are there no other ways to remove them? I still think to use a spear to catch them is horrible.

[CuzzA]

Are there no sharks in Florida? Are there no other ways to remove them? I still think to use a spear to catch them is horrible.

Read the links Kaman.

I'm sorry you think a spear is horrible. Is a sharks teeth ok? If they outfitted the spear with a sharks tooth would that be more appropriate? Is catching fish with a hook not appropriate? Or how about a net? Either way you "dice" it they end up with a fillet knife cutting through them. Pun intended ;) Sorry I'm being facetious...

They are a problem in Florida and need to be dealt with. If you have a better more effective way of catching them I'm sure spear fishermen will be all ears, but spearfishing has been around since humans started eating fish and it's probably the most effective way of harvesting a fish without any by-catch.

[TreyK]

Read the links Kaman.

I'm sorry you think a spear is horrible. Is a sharks teeth ok? If they outfitted the spear with a sharks tooth would that be more appropriate? Is catching fish with a hook not appropriate? Or how about a net? Either way you "dice" it they end up with a filet knife cutting through them. Pun intended ;) Sorry I'm being facetious...

They are a problem in Florida and need to be dealt with. If you have a better more effective way of catching them I'm sure spear fishermen will be all ears, but spear fishing has been around since humans started eating fish and it's probably the most effective way of harvesting a fish without any by-catch.

I wish I could "like" this post. You got the point across in a much better ( and far less insulting) way than I was about to. :hmm5:

[CuzzA]

I wish I could "like" this post. You got the point across in a much better ( and far less insulting) way than I was about to. :hmm5:

;) It's challenging.... Biting your tongue and putting together "non-FLAMEable" responses.

Of course I have to give Kaman the benefit of the doubt, he likely just hasn't researched the issue yet. Any reasonable person would likely agree given the knowledge.

Plus seeing what we call "pets" get killed probably invokes a sad emotion. I'm sure a lot of people had some awkward emotion when they saw THIS (http://blog.aquanerd.com/2014/06/picture-of-the-week-grilled-unicorn-tang.html). I'll admit I love eating fish, but I won't be serving up my Regal Tang when she dies of old age.

[m0nkie]

;) It's challenging.... Biting your tongue and putting together "non-FLAMEable" responses.

Of course I have to give Kaman the benefit of the doubt, he likely just hasn't researched the issue yet. Any reasonable person would likely agree given the knowledge.

Plus seeing what we call "pets" get killed probably invokes a sad emotion. I'm sure a lot of people had some awkward emotion when they saw THIS (http://blog.aquanerd.com/2014/06/picture-of-the-week-grilled-unicorn-tang.html). I'll admit I love eating fish, but I won't be serving up my Regal Tang when she dies of old age.

this is the worst I've seen.. along with live frog sake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqIBEcZRroM

[billsreef]

Why do they not want the lion fish in Florida ? What's the problem with lion Fish?

Just to expand a bit on what's been said. Lionfish are native to the tropical Pacific. In the tropical Atlantic they are a highly invasive introduced species that have a negative impact on native species of fish. These negative impacts range from outright consumption of small native fish and shrimp (both small species and the juveniles of larger species) to outcompeting native predatory fish for available food resources. That combination of invasiveness and huge appetite make them an ecological nightmare for native species. The fact that they are non native also means they are not recognized as prey by native predatory fish, and therefore there is very little natural predation on the lionfish to exert any sort of natural controls...hence the need for spearing, which is the most effective way to catch and remove them from where they do not belong.

[hogfanreefer]

I was in Cozumel in early August. Every divemaster carried a little Hawaiian sling. We only saw 3 very small ones in 18 dives. I spoke to one of the divemasters who told me initially they saw lots of them every dive but now they see very few and only small ones. While they certainly can't be eliminated I think this is encouraging that they can be controlled at least locally.

Video I took on our second day. This was about the size of all the ones we saw.

/watch?v=Ak-EsvRsCB0

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f164/huntindoc/Cozumel%202014/lionfish_zps16ee232e.jpg

[Jeff000]

While I do see a population difference between frequently dived reefs and not frequently dived ones, I don't see us ever getting enough divers in the water to put a substantial dent in the population. They also don't take hook and line, and live in reef structure that is not conducive to commercial netting. Leaves divers with spears the only reliable fishing method. The market price would have be rather high to make that a truly viable commercial fishing method with enough divers to make a dent.

The lion fish are like the wild boars. They are out of control, and humans are really the only thing controlling their populations.

I've seen videos of reefs that have huge schools of fish one year then two years later just have a few fish and many lionfish. And know people that have watched reef fish populations be decimated by the lionfish.
A good friend is a dive master and frequents a couple specific reefs and says that he takes 6+ lionfish a day out, and just that amount of control makes a difference compared to if he goes a little farther to parts of the same reef where he doesn't frequent.
The way he cooks up the lion is delicious too.

If there was a real incentive to kill them their populations would plummet. Up here we put a bounty on coyotes in problem areas and sure enough the problem gets solved.
Put 2 bucks a lionfish, or even 5 bucks, and I bet you will see a lot of lionfish coming out of the water. And the cost really would be cheaper than what they are doing now.



And sorry, I disagree with the not killing Lionfish post. If someone sees a Lionfish or a Python in Florida, they should kill it. Then eat the fish and make a new belt out of the Python.

I agree with this. Even if you just kill the lionfish and leave it on the reef it'll be cleaned up by the reef pretty quickly.