trying way too hard I think!! very descriptive w/ pics

[cncguy]

First off let me just say sorry if this ends up being long, but I want to give as many details as I can think of. I've had a SW tank for about 12 years now, and can't seem to get it anywhere near how I'd like it. I have the same setup, if not better than some of my friends, but can never seem to completely rid the system of algae, or get corals to grow, or they grow very slowly, while my friends seem to flourish. So here's the details: 90gal with 20gal sump. In the sump is a RO NWB110 skimmer, rock, live sand, mag12 return, 2 heaters, 6500K bulb, and GFO reactor. I've only used Rowaphos and change about every 3 months. In/on the tank are 2 koralia 1400 powerheads, 1200gal overflow, 6x54watt T5 fixture and 48" blue/white stunner strip. Bulbs get replaced about 3 every 6 months. Bulbs are Hamilton 460nm (2), Geisemann super actinic, UV super actinic,and two 12k bulbs. All on for 8hrs, blues on 1hr before and after. BRS 4 stage RO/DI and reef crystals salt. Only dose 2 part b-ionic, and occasionally trace elements and iodide. Parameters are always good except mag is high sometimes. Tests I check are, SG, PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Calcium, KH, Mag, Phos, and temp @78 deg. Gets a 15gal water change every 2 weeks by vacuuming the bare bottom, and rocks. But a couple days after, I start getting a brownish tint on the rocks. In the pics you can see some green algae way to the right, and some other spots of hair algae? There's some coming out of the GSP, around the frogspawn, and there was a decent amount on a rock with palys and shrooms, but I did a peroxide dip, and most is gone on that rock. The pics aren't the greatest, but hopefully good enough, or sufficient as the brownish is hard to see with the blue color I get from phone pics. The clean spots are where the urchin has roamed. I have went through a couple doses of marine algae fix, but has only seemed to help, not eliminate. Livestock= 2 pajama cardinals, GSP, frogspawn, long tentacle polyp leather, colt coral, a few mushrooms and palys, pink urchin, 10ish snails, a few crabs, big serpent star, and a decent sized haitian anenome. Feed only a little bit of mysis shrimp, or marine flakes once a day. Coralline never seems to grow or accumulate much, but is that from the water quality, or urchin eating it all, I'm not sure. Corals seem to either be stagnant, or grow really slow. The ones that seem to be doing the best are the GSP and frogspawn. I feel like I'm trying WAY to hard, but have a lot of time and money invested in something I love, and want a nicer looking tank!!!!!!!! So to maybe bring this long post to a close, I guess these would be the first questions I have:

Shoud I do a 3 day blackout?

Is ambient air quality a huge concern? ie: many pets, smoke, cleaning, etc. My skimmer runs on an outside air line, and the tank has glass tops, leaving the only thing open is the overflow, and sump in the cabinet for gas exchange, and also have a powerhead breaking the surface. If this is a concern, can I run an outside airline with a airstone into the sump to add oxygen?

Are my lights sufficient for the corals? I believe they are, but maybe not?

Should I supplement marine snow or something else to help growth?

Are the anenome and urchin contributing largely to the load? Urchins poop a lot!!!!!!!!

Should I put carbon in the reactor with the GFO, just use a bag of carbon in the sump, or not worry about running carbon as I'm not right now

If the sand in the sump is a year old, should I change or take it out, and should I remove algae from the sump, or leave it grow there?

[W1ngz]

Post your water parameters, don't just say 'good'.

No one can help without hard data.

[cncguy]

I will check and post them tomorrow

[Mark9]

I think lights seem very important for corals.
I seem to be having decent results with ATI bulbs.
Some recommended 6 bulb combinations are

16K - 20K - Bluish white with a noticeable blue and red under-tone
4 ATI Blue Plus
1 ATI Coral Plus
1 ATI Purple Plus

12K - 16K - Cool white with a noticable blue and red under-tone
3 ATI Blue Plus
2 ATI Coral Plus
1 ATI Purple Plus

10K - 14K - Crisp white with just a hint of blue
3 ATI Blue Plus
2 ATI Aquablue Special
1 ATI Purple Plus

I run
3 ATI Blue Plus
1 ATI Aquablue Special
1 ATI Coral Plus
1 ATI Purple Plus

Do you dose?
I use the BRS kit with pumps.
Made things way easier.

What kind of salt do you use?
Reef crystals are well suited for corals.

Do you have an ATO?
Stability helps.

I would run carbon with the gfo.

What do you have for a cuc?
Trochus snails work wonders.

[garyinco]

From the pics you posted the tank looks very blue to me. Maybe just the digital camera's color balance. It looks deep water. I'd get that GSP colony off your main rock base. When it spreads it will overtake all that rock, and it will. Stuff is a pest weed. Stop it while you can.

Can any of your friends seed you with some coralline growing sand and/or rock rubble. Really nice live rock makes a huge difference and it is hard to come by these days.

[Sk8r]

I'd recommend 10000k nine inches above the water and about 5" more to the frogspawn.

[droog]

Hi,

You have 12 years experience with sw to my 2, so take any "advice" from me with a grain of sea salt...

1) I think the closed top on the aquarium could be an issue, especially if the sump cabinet is also enclosed. Perhaps you could replace a glass top with eggcrate, mesh or something to increase gas exchange. That could help with both oxygenation and light penetration

2) The rock formation / aquascape in your first picture looks to me like it might not be optimal. I'm no expert on aquascaping by any means, but improving the rock layout - opening things up to more to eliminate any dead spots might help

My tank was also "lacklustre" for a while, and I suffered from nusiance algae. This was fixed when I hired an experienced maintenance guy. In a couple of visits he replaced my substrate completely (said I had the wrong type of sand), replaced some of the worst affected pieces of LR and re-did the aquascape. Things looked up pretty quite quickly after that.

Maybe you could hire someone from your local LFS to do some "professional" maintnence on a one-off basis.

Carbon dosing might be worth looking into also.

-droog

[phenom5]

Two things jump out at me.

Skimmer could probably stand to be a beefed up a little.
Your return pump is too big.

I'd drop the return down to something like a mag5. I think you're pushing too much water too fast through your sump. This makes your skimmer, which is slightly underpowered IMO, less efficient.

[formsix]

Definitely post your parameters.

My thought is whether you have something strange going on because you have a very small bioload. Just to compare your tank to the average tank, most people have more fish -- more feeding, more fish poop, more need for nutrient removal... but also more nutrients. Urchin poop doesn't count -- they just eat algae. Perhaps your water is too clean? Or the corals aren't getting something they need given the lack of nutrients presumably over years?

Many of us feed a mix of foods beyond mysis -- stuff like RODS and reef chili -- to account for the issues that we don't really know what all of our saltwater critters need. I don't know much about marine flakes, but perhaps you want to add a food that is specifically designed for corals. Or feed something like RODS which is great for the fish and corals.

[Sk8r]

Mag 12 is probably about right for a 90. I used a 9.5 in a 50, and have to give an Iwaki 100 (in the basement) a bit of a boost for a 102.

I'm most suspicious of your lights. I use a 250 watt 10000k Metal Halide with 2 HO actinics (wedge-shaped tank) and still don't think I'm getting enough light to the bottom.

[cncguy]

So far the consensus is to maybe back the pump off some, and let the skimmer possibly have more time with the water, and feed some other stuff more coral specific? My bio load is actually small? Do anenomes add a lot? As far as the lights, do you think ATI bulbs would make a big difference, or is the fixture not going to be sufficient enough? Nobody has touched on the ambient air quality, so is this not much of a concern, especially with winter here, or is the outside skimmer line good enough?

[acabgd]

I would first ditch the glass tops and then switch to ATI lights.

[cncguy]

I think I will change all 6 bulbs to ATI after x-mas time. 'Santa' is on a budget for the next month and a half!!!!!! Had to do some running tonight, so I'll check and post my water parameters tomorrow

[cncguy]

Droog, sounds like a good suggestion, by the closest lfs I'd trust is in Buffalo, which is 2hrs away!!!

[cncguy]

Well first off, lemme apologize for saying my paramaters are always close except my mag, I stand corrected after these last tests!!!!!! All tests are API except KH and mag are Salifert.

temp-78
sg- 1.023
ph-8.2
ammonia-0
nitrite-0
nitrate-80!!!!!!!?????
calcium-420
mag-1410
KH-10.5

I'm getting frustated to no end!!!! Been doing this a while, and I guess just can't comprehend what's goin on. Guess I'm a chemistry moron, give me a CNC machine and I'll work wonders (so I don't think I'm stupid:) ), but reef is a different beast I guess! I put way more time and effort in this than you can imagine, maybe in the wrong areas? I do water changes more than most people I know, so how can my nitrates be so high? The only two things I'll question mainly (for now!) are ambient air quality (as stated in my first post), and another thing I thought of, but didn't mention, was some of the rock in the tank is homemade, but been in there about a year. I cured it for about 5 months or so before putting in the tank, changing water every couple days, and checking PH. Is it possible to be leaching stuff still? Although my last testing only showed nitrate at 10. Even took all my substrate out 2 years ago or so. Nothing has died or been added (except colt coral). Will carbon help nitrates? I also have some nitrate reducing pads I can put in. I'M PULLING MY HAIR OUT GUYS;;;;;;---########## After over 12 years, I KNOW I'm trying WAY too hard, and/or missing something, especially after seeming some of the people that post their tanks after a year or so, that make my tank look like crap!

HELP PLEASE

[W1ngz]

Big big water change, or several over a week, and research carbon dosing maybe. Change your nitrate test for something else. If not shaken enough, the API test can come out very wrong. I usually do mine twice, and always shake the crap out of bottle 2.

[W1ngz]

What's your substrate? And how big/often are your water changes?

[cncguy]

Thanks W1ngz, I will prolly do as big of a water change as I can tomorrow. My Brute container only actually holds a little over 20 gal, but I'll do that, and maybe a little more if I just leave the RO run while I'm doing the change. I was wondering about the test as well, I also checked it twice, cause I couldn't believe it was that high

[cncguy]

No substrate, BB. And usually about 15% every 2 weeks

[phenom5]

Well first off, lemme apologize for saying my paramaters are always close except my mag, I stand corrected after these last tests!!!!!! All tests are API except KH and mag are Salifert.

temp-78
sg- 1.023
ph-8.2
ammonia-0
nitrite-0
nitrate-80!!!!!!!?????
calcium-420
mag-1410
KH-10.5

I'm getting frustated to no end!!!! Been doing this a while, and I guess just can't comprehend what's goin on. Guess I'm a chemistry moron, give me a CNC machine and I'll work wonders (so I don't think I'm stupid:) ), but reef is a different beast I guess! I put way more time and effort in this than you can imagine, maybe in the wrong areas? I do water changes more than most people I know, so how can my nitrates be so high? The only two things I'll question mainly (for now!) are ambient air quality (as stated in my first post), and another thing I thought of, but didn't mention, was some of the rock in the tank is homemade, but been in there about a year. I cured it for about 5 months or so before putting in the tank, changing water every couple days, and checking PH. Is it possible to be leaching stuff still? Although my last testing only showed nitrate at 10. Even took all my substrate out 2 years ago or so. Nothing has died or been added (except colt coral). Will carbon help nitrates? I also have some nitrate reducing pads I can put in. I'M PULLING MY HAIR OUT GUYS;;;;;;---########## After over 12 years, I KNOW I'm trying WAY too hard, and/or missing something, especially after seeming some of the people that post their tanks after a year or so, that make my tank look like crap!

HELP PLEASE

Your issues seemed more related to water quality than the spectrum of your bulbs.

If it were me, I'd break down your water making process and test at every step to make sure you aren't introducing nitrates at some point.

Test the TDS of fresh RODI.
Test the TDS of the RODI after it was in your water container for a day or two.
Test the nitrates after your mix the salt water.
Test the nitrates after your saltwater has been mixing for a day or two.

If all that checks out...then you aren't introducing nitrates...and you aren't exporting nutrients at a faster rate than you are importing them.

If that's the case, then reduce feeding, and increase skimming will help. I'd also do a series of good sized water changes to bring your nitrates down.

FWIW, my return on my 155g is a 900ish gph pump that runs my return, and runs a pair of reactors through a manifold. 3x-5x through the sump is ideal, and I still think you are pushing too much water too fast through your sump, and not utilizing your skimmer as a result.

[cncguy]

Thanks Rob. I just turned my pump down, so maybe the skimmer will actually do a little more work, I hope!!! I just checked the tds on my RO/DI unit, and as long as the HM digital unit is right, it is 001 in, and 000 out. (I believe out is after DI?). Filters and DI resin were changed only a few months ago. I just checked my water that is newly mixed as of today at bout 1.019 sg, and the nitrates are at 0, or as close as the API test gives me.

[cncguy]

bumpski

[Sk8r]

Your salinity is .002 low. 1.024 is minimum, 1.026 is max for corals.
You should track alkalinity, not ph, though the two are somewhat related.

That nitrate is astonishing. You don't have a filter piling it up, do you? I've read your op, and can't find it.

I wonder if maybe you're a little too clean for good coral growth. I've never run a barebottom tank: I use aragonite sand. So I don't know how such tanks react, but lps are living filters, and do not like nitrate, but do suck particulate food out of the water. I just use a 3" deep sandbed and never clean it: I just have critters like nassarius that do. a Candycane in serious growth mode can put on about a new head every couple of weeks, hammer much the same. At least once a month. They also hit periods of aggression, or something like it---you'll get one that grows at several times the rate of the others. You also have a mix of softies, which don't take extra calcium, and stony, which does. And the two types try to inhibit each other---particularly softies spit into the water to discourage other corals. A fast scan of your op doesn't say if you're running carbon, but if you aren't, you might try that: it sops up coral spit. And check the alkalinity. s/b about 8.3, but it's probably ok.

[Dan_P]

The aquascape in the pictures is twelve years old?

I took a close look at the pictures. I did not see any issues. Animals looked fine. What exactly are you trying to achieve?

I saw your water parameters. Make sure your nitrate kit is giving correct results. No use getting excited about nothing. Check phosphates as well.


Dan

[cncguy]

Thanks for the response guys. To answer those questions:

Sk8r, I have no filters, just sump with some live sand (about 2yrs old), and some live rocks. I thought the nitrate was insanely high too, checked it twice, same reading, then checked my fresh mixed salt water with no nitrates. I'll raise the SG some then as well. I am not running carbon, but have some. Should I just put it in the reactor with the GFO, although I know it's not optimal, but better than just putting a bag in the sump?

Dan P, sorry, I checked the phosphates as well but forgot to post, they were 0 with API test. The tank is 12 years old, but most of the rock is live from Dr Fosters last year if I remember correctly. What I'm trying to achieve, is to figure out why it won't flourish as in corals growing, coralline comes and goes, and how the hell did my nitrates get that high, if the test is correct. Even down to the GSP, which some of my friends have, and keep removing it cause it grows so much, and mine just SLOWLY spreads. Nothing died, only feed VERY minimal. Probably 5 times a week, and only a little bit of mysis shrimp, as I only have 2 pajama cardinals at the moment. I just did a 20gal water change as suggested. And will probably start doing a couple gallon change a day. I'm just at a loss :(. I was hoping someone could confirm or deny that ambient air quality can be an issue or not as well, although I have an outside airline for the skimmer. I also turned down my flow into the sump as someone suggested

[cncguy]

Even have checked stray voltage, which is around 24volts. Too high? How to lower? Grounding rod?

[cncguy]

Thanks for the help guys, I just don't know what to do, it's turning into more work and frustration than fun. That's not good!

[acabgd]

You've asked multiple times about ambient air quality, but I don't see a problem with that. Both myself and my wife are smokers and the tank is in the living room where we used to smoke. I do open the windows daily, yet I really don't see what could be in your air to hurt your tank, bar some chemicals (aerosols). In that case, stuff would probably start dying so you will notice. I don't think you ambient air is a problem at all.

How much of your LR is artificial/home made?

[cncguy]

Thank you for answering that acabgd!!!!!!! As far as the rock, probably only 25%, maybe, and its been in there for a while. I just put some activated carbon in as well to maybe help something. Any idea if that much stray voltage is a concern?

[Remmers]

following, I have no input but I am interested in reading the answers that come in.

[cncguy]

ha ha, me too Remmers!!!!

[acabgd]

Thank you for answering that acabgd!!!!!!!
No prob... This is really interesting and I would like if we/someone could find a solution to your problem. As for ambient air, scented candles, air fresheners and such could be a problem. I've had almost 20 smokers in my living room at one time (don't ask) and had no problem with the tank. Really, only some extreme pollution or chemicals could hurt it feom the ambient air.
I would run carbon and see how it goes.

[Mrramsey]

Over thinking is easy to do. I used to fiddle with my tank all the time.

Now I just stand back and enjoy it. I do my daily feeding and check the equipment. I gauge the water quality by how the corals look. I do a water change about every 6-8 weeks. I addresses algae by adding about 25 snails, a banded shrimp, 2 emerald crabs over time.

I do not add any additives but do run a bit of activated carbon in my filter socks from time to time. I really have found that the less I fiddle with it the better it goes. I do get some excess algae occasionally that I vac out.

[Dan_P]

Don't get into a frenzy of change with a shotgun approach to resolving your aquarium issues. Take a measured pace, changing one major factor at a time if you can, e.g., lights, or salinity or start using GAC, but not all three at once.

Light

You mentioned your system is the same or better than your friends but their coral is growing. How far are their coral from the lights? If they are using T5's and have the same species of coral, you can at least say that you are or are not illuminating your coral with the same amount of light. If their lighting type and species are different, the comparison becomes a bit confusing. In any event, this will help limit the number of factors you need to consider for improving coral growth.

If you do elect to buy different and brighter lighting, your coral may need time to adapt. Get some opinions on how to safety transition your coral. No use hurrying things after 12 years.


Water Chemistry

It might be a good idea to step back and review the recommended levels for your water parameters. Review this Holmes-Farley article on water parameters.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Make changes accordingly, but not too quickly. Get close to the levels but do not obsess over being exact. Just do this for peace of mind and to eliminate this variable from list of potential issues.

Nitrates

Nitrates sound high, although with colorimetric tests the colors on the comparator chart at the high and very low concentrations may start to look the same. So, you have high nitrates, but they might not be 80 ppm, or if you are a pessimist, higher than 80 ppm.

It is not clear from your thread whether nitrates went up overnight or over several months. The 15 gallon every two weeks water changes may not help to reduce them if the rate of production is higher than 4 ppm per week (assumed 80 ppm, 10% water change remove 8 ppm). I don't have a sense for how much waste coral produce, but for fish you can assume that 80% (approximately) of the phosphorus and nitrogen in food goes to ammonia and phosphate. The ammonia in turn goes to nitrate. From the amount of food you are adding you can estimate the most nitrate you can expect to produce just from feeding fish. If this estimate is much lower than what you are observing than you can look elsewhere for the issue. The calculation is straightforward, but I don't know whether anyone has used this approach for diagnosing aquarium nitrate issues.

Exporting nitrate and precursors to nitrate is another potential factor behind the nitrate issue. With substrate only in the sump and a bare bottom tank, there is not much opportunity for much denitrification to occur. If the sump does not have luxuriant macro algae growth, then nitrates are not leaving that way either. And unless you are doing massive water changes (potentially disturbing to coral), water changes are not removing nitrates.Since it is unclear why your system has high nitrates, try this low tech approach for lowering nitrates and monitoring the build up over a month period

The idea is to perform a massive water change with minimal impact to the tank in habitants. Everyday change a small amount of tank water, say five percent, until you exchanged the entire volume of the tank. For your system which contains about 100 gallons, changing 5 gallons per day over twenty days will do the job. The actual dilution factor will be around 70%, meaning if the nitrates are not accumulating too quickly, you should see a nitrate level of 30% of 80 ppm by day 20 or about 24 ppm. If the actual nitrate level is 40 ppm, then the nitrate level will end up around 12 ppm. This approach may work for several reasons. You can monitor your corals response and stop water changes if they start to look disturbed. If nitrate levels are not dropping with these water changes, this will tell you that your current high level is due to an ongoing nitrate production issue and not a one time nitrate generating event . You will not be able to tell this until the water changes have theoretically diluted the nitrate to where the color difference between nitrate levels is easier to read, say in the 20-40 ppm range. For your system, that would be around day ten or half way through the water change process. The other reason to take this approach is psychological. You probably have a very strong urge feel to do something immediately, you are being bombarded with ideas and advice which puts you in danger of changing too many things at once, possibly making matters worse. So, by all means get to work, but take your time. Your system does not seem to be in imminent danger.

Questions

Blackout. This has been proposed as a remedy for cyanobacteria. It might be of use for diatoms but I have not read many posts about it's success.

Ambient air concerns.

Are the chemicals in the air that are toxic to coral? What is toxic to coral? How would this get into the aquarium? Is my outside air intake close to a chimney or car exhaust? How is my situation different from my friends who have vigorously growing coral? Metals like copper, pesticides, cleaning solutions, and medications are examples of potential potent chemicals. I would not worry about ambient air until you addresses the bigger factors like water parameters and light level.

Supplemental feeding

If your nitrates are high, you do not want to consider feeding corals until the nitrate level is reduced to where you need it to be. And if nitrates are high, it is possible that the system has plenty of nutrients. For example, high levels of proteins from fish food, coral secretions, dead algae and bacteria can potentially provide an aquarium with amino acids as well as be a source nitrates. Consider coming back to this after adjusting water parameters and lighting.

Using GAC

GAC removes as much or move chemicals from water than protein skimming. It is mostly a no-brainer decision to regularly use GAC. Using it in a reactor is critical for effectiveness. Tossing a media bag filled with GAC into a sump is the wrong approach. Change it more often then the recommend if you feel your organics are high.

You could start using carbon right now. But if you are going to pursue a 5% daily water change, wait until the end of change period so that you can interpret the results of the water change experiment.

Sump changes

Do not make any changes to your sump at this time. Harvest macro algae if needed but do not tamper with the sand bed. Much of your biological filter is located their. Disturbing it could produce a spike in ammonia levels or kick off a cyanobacteria bloom. Come back to this question a minth after the nitrate level is down.

[cncguy]

Dan P, thanks so much for your response!!! I appreciate it more than you know that you took so much time, and were so in depth. Sorry I just found this post agin, as I thought it was dead. I have managed to get nitrates down to about 10 or so. So my parameters are pretty close now I believe. One other question I'm gonna throw out there is, could my bulbs be part of my lack of success with coral? They are all under a year old or close, but seeing how most eveyone uses ATI bulbs, I was thinking of getting 6 new ones. Any suggestions?

[eeyore357]

I believe T5 bulbs should be changed every six months. I have no personal experience with T5s myself but read that numerous times and was the reason I went with LED. Just wondering how often you clean the glass lids too? Salt accumulating on them will reduce light.

[cncguy]

I actually only have 1 lid on, and the other side is open. Reason being, my daughters huge doll house is next to that side of the tank, and I'm sure it's only a matter of time that something would fall in!!!! So 1 side is covered the other isn't. I clean it every couple weeks or so. Just wondering if going to ATI brand bulbs would make a difference

[phenom5]

What kind of corals?
What kind of light fixture?

For a 6 bulb T5, I use to run:

FRONT
ATI Blue +
ATI Purple +
ATI Blue +
ATI Coral +
ATI Blue +
ATI Blue +
BACK

Gives a nice, crisp blue look. For some it may be too blue, you can swap out 1 or 2 of the Blue + for AquaBlue Specials to move to a whiter spectrum (one would move it to 14000K-ish, two would move it to 12000K-ish). The Blue + are great, because they give you the intense blue, but are still high PAR, unlike the Actinics.

High PAR bulbs may help, but it depends on the fixture too. If you have sub par ballast driving them, or a housing that doesn't cool them properly, or if your fixture doesn't have individual reflectors, you may not see a huge difference.

I would say look into changing them, because you're probably about due and ATIs are good tubes, but I wouldn't expect them to fix everything. In fact, be careful when you change them. You may want to shorten you lighting cycle a bit, and slowly bring it back up over a 7-10 days. New bulbs can shock corals because they are stronger the older ones you are replacing.

[cncguy]

The fixture is a nova extreme 6X54watt, and one ecoxotic 48 blue/white led. I have a Haitian anenome, a few shrooms, colt coral, gsp, frogspawn, long tentacle polyp leather, pineapple tree, green trumpets, and a few palys