Disease outbreaks in LFS, calling experts w/ LFS Experience

[JackandJill]

I made a thread a few weeks ago about how to reduce disease in the LFS that I own.

I'm not sure if it is against forum rules as a "commercial store" to request advice but as a former hobbyist and still hobbyist I am hoping you can help advice me. I've tried reading everything I can possibly find on the topic.

I usually lose a fish every few days, yesterday I lost 5, this morning I lost 10. I can try to grab a picture, if relevant, but it looks like velvet.

When it comes to losing hundreds of dollars of fish a day I am willing to spare no expense if necessary, I'm just not sure what route to go.

It appears ozone is efficient at cleaning water, but not so much at killing parasites. Raising/lowering salinity/temperature does not kill parasites so I'm guessing that isn't the answer.
Temp - 80
Salinity - 1.025
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <50

The fish sections are two systems approx. 800-1000g each.

[Deinonych]

If it's velvet, chloroquine phosphate is the preferred treatment @ 40mg/gal (10mg/L). Timelines given above are consistent with a velvet outbreak. Pictures would be helpful if you can provide them.

[snorvich]

I made a thread a few weeks ago about how to reduce disease in the LFS that I own.

I'm not sure if it is against forum rules as a "commercial store" to request advice but as a former hobbyist and still hobbyist I am hoping you can help advice me. I've tried reading everything I can possibly find on the topic.

I usually lose a fish every few days, yesterday I lost 5, this morning I lost 10. I can try to grab a picture, if relevant, but it looks like velvet.

When it comes to losing hundreds of dollars of fish a day I am willing to spare no expense if necessary, I'm just not sure what route to go.

It appears ozone is efficient at cleaning water, but not so much at killing parasites. Raising/lowering salinity/temperature does not kill parasites so I'm guessing that isn't the answer.
Temp - 80
Salinity - 1.025
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <50

The fish sections are two systems approx. 800-1000g each.

I occasionally act as a paid consultant to LFS (more on the financial side working on business models) but I have also advised in this area too.

Contrary to popular belief (of some) ozone will not do a lot in your situation other than act as a water clarifier. At that, however, it is excellent although UV can work well in that capacity as well.

UV will provide some protection if configured properly to keep parasites from spreading from tank to tank but for a given tank, it will not eradicate them. (also true for hobbyists).

Some LFS run a non-therapeutic dose of copper. This will tend to mask the parasites but if the end user does not quarantine properly, it merely passes the problem on to the end user.

True quarantine is financially infeasible. Almost every buyer (at least the vast majority do) of fish tends to be price sensitive and does comparative analysis. When we tried to quantify the effect of properly quarantining, we ended up estimating that you would have to charge roughly double the going retail price. Some maintenance services do quarantine their fish properly, but they do guarantee them and they do charge roughly double.

At this point, you have velvet in your system(s) and in order to eradicate it a given system must be fallow for three weeks or run CP in each system as mentioned above. Long term, however, I do not think you can run CP in perpetuity and it is definitely not inexpensive.

[JackandJill]

I occasionally act as a paid consultant to LFS (more on the financial side working on business models) but I have also advised in this area too.

Contrary to popular belief (of some) ozone will not do a lot in your situation other than act as a water clarifier. At that, however, it is excellent although UV can work well in that capacity as well.

UV will provide some protection if configured properly to keep parasites from spreading from tank to tank but for a given tank, it will not eradicate them. (also true for hobbyists).

Some LFS run a non-therapeutic dose of copper. This will tend to mask the parasites but if the end user does not quarantine properly, it merely passes the problem on to the end user.

True quarantine is financially infeasible. Almost every buyer (at least the vast majority do) of fish tends to be price sensitive and does comparative analysis. When we tried to quantify the effect of properly quarantining, we ended up estimating that you would have to charge roughly double the going retail price. Some maintenance services do quarantine their fish properly, but they do guarantee them and they do charge roughly double.

At this point, you have velvet in your system(s) and in order to eradicate it a given system must be fallow for three weeks or run CP in each system as mentioned above. Long term, however, I do not think you can run CP in perpetuity and it is definitely not inexpensive.



I wouldn't be opposed to running the system fallow for three weeks to rid the system of velvet, but am I right in assuming that a few orders down the road I'm likely to get it right back again? Even if it is on 1/200 fish. It is only a matter of a month or two until its right back in the system.

It looks like in my systems I have had small outbreaks of ich, velvet, and brook in the two months I have been open. So it's reasonable to figure if in two months I got all three, if I was able to leave all systems fallow for 10 or 12 weeks and completely restart I would end up exactly where I'm at in 2 more months.

[snorvich]

I wouldn't be opposed to running the system fallow for three weeks to rid the system of velvet, but am I right in assuming that a few orders down the road I'm likely to get it right back again? Even if it is on 1/200 fish. It is only a matter of a month or two until its right back in the system.

It looks like in my systems I have had small outbreaks of ich, velvet, and brook in the two months I have been open. So it's reasonable to figure if in two months I got all three, if I was able to leave all systems fallow for 10 or 12 weeks and completely restart I would end up exactly where I'm at in 2 more months.

That is correct. While you can temporarily fix the problem, there is no easy, financially feasible long term solution. And by the way, brook and uronema are a bit different in that uronema does not require a fish host as part of the life cycle.

[JackandJill]

That is correct. While you can temporarily fix the problem, there is no easy, financially feasible long term solution. And by the way, brook and uronema are a bit different in that uronema does not require a fish host as part of the life cycle.

My store display tank (my personal home tank dedicated to the store) is 100% pest free, all fish thrive, corals thrive, water parameters are spot on because I read and listened to those more experienced and knowledgeable than I.

As a business owner all decisions are ultimately mine to make and I am the one who has to live with the consequences. But I would not be where I am at without utilizing the vast resources of reefcentral and you, snorvich.

I am curious then, if you were in my shoes. What would you do? Dose copper, install appropriately sized UV, and/or allocate it as a cost of doing business and ensure prices are appropriate to ensure profit.

[snorvich]

My store display tank (my personal home tank dedicated to the store) is 100% pest free, all fish thrive, corals thrive, water parameters are spot on because I read and listened to those more experienced and knowledgeable than I.

As a business owner all decisions are ultimately mine to make and I am the one who has to live with the consequences. But I would not be where I am at without utilizing the vast resources of reefcentral and you, snorvich.

I am curious then, if you were in my shoes. What would you do? Dose copper, install appropriately sized UV, and/or allocate it as a cost of doing business and ensure prices are appropriate to ensure profit.

The practices of a store owner and a hobbyist are radically different as you know. As a minimum, I would certainly install an appropriately sized UV to at least limit movement of parasites between tanks. How frequently do you receive shipments? Is tank maintenance a major business line? Are corals and inverts a major part of your business?

[JackandJill]

How frequently do you receive shipments?

Weekly

Is tank maintenance a major business line?

I plan for it to be as we become more established and have credibility, but as of the moment, No.

Are corals and inverts a major part of your business?

Yes, it seems that winning coral people's business is harder than fish onlys, but business has doubled in that regard in our second month (November).

[snorvich]

There is no "right answer" here. But you need to develop a way of analyzing the financial impact of whatever course of action you decide upon.

What I am going to suggest may sound counter intuitive, but . . .

You need to develop a business model. Enumerate your Fixed costs (including salaries, rent, utilities, etc). Let us say for example, that your fixed costs are $10,000 per month. Then you need to compute your monthly break even point which is taking your average gross profit margin divided into the total of your fixed costs. So, assume that your average gross profit margin is 50% (which is probably high since dry goods are not as profitable), that would mean that you would have to gross $20,000 per month to break even (cash flow neutral). You will also have to reduce your profit margin to allow for shrinkage of inventory (theft, spoilage), and fish and invert fatality. This process will allow you to create a model to see the impact of your actions. So, let us now assume that you keep a copper level or a level of CP in your fish systems, that would add $$$ to your fixed costs since you would need to spend that amount irrespective of the number of fish sold. That would also mean that your break even sales point would rise.

[Reefstarter2]

you could very well have stray voltage in your system . I know I know its not supposed to kill fish that quick but I had it happen in my tanks at home . so worth checking

[snorvich]

you could very well have stray voltage in your system . I know I know its not supposed to kill fish that quick but I had it happen in my tanks at home . so worth checking

Probably not relevant in this particular case.

[pktech]

@ jacknjill - did you start this store from scratch or did you take it over? I'm sorry you're going through this hassle. I'm wondering what the plan is for the next shipment coming in.

[.Chris.]

In my experience as an LFS worker, the only financially feasible option for handling this sort of thing is to run elevated levels of copper. You run into the problem of fish lacking appetite, or the copper destroying the gut flora of the fish, making it so that the food they do eat will not help them much in terms of nutrients, however.

We run it at 0.55mg/L and test daily, and dose appropriately.

We haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year. Our only issue is flukes and other parasites, but we combat that by routinely (once monthly) running a weeklong treatment of praziquantel at 300%, dosed three times with three days between each treatment, as well as add praziquantel directly into the food batches we make three times weekly.

[snorvich]

Of course, some fish cannot deal with copper. And brook and uronema need different treatments. However, running copper at therapeutic level will work to some degree.

[snorvich]

There are, however, people who will not buy from a vendor that runs copper. (they are in the minority, however).

[pktech]

In my experience as an LFS worker, the only financially feasible option for handling this sort of thing is to run elevated levels of copper. You run into the problem of fish lacking appetite, or the copper destroying the gut flora of the fish, making it so that the food they do eat will not help them much in terms of nutrients, however.

We run it at 0.55mg/L and test daily, and dose appropriately.

We haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year. Our only issue is flukes and other parasites, but we combat that by routinely (once monthly) running a weeklong treatment of praziquantel at 300%, dosed three times with three days between each treatment, as well as add praziquantel directly into the food batches we make three times weekly.

My fish won't touch food laced with praziquantel. I guess if they're hungry, they'll eat anything. Do you add anything else to the food to make it more appealing?

[.Chris.]

Of course, some fish cannot deal with copper. And brook and uronema need different treatments. However, running copper at therapeutic level will work to some degree.

Agreed. We don't put certain angels and wrasses and butterflies on system for that reason. We have a copper free system as well.

[.Chris.]

My fish won't touch food laced with praziquantel. I guess if they're hungry, they'll eat anything. Do you add anything else to the food to make it more appealing?

Kent Garlic Xtreme, Selcon, Vita-Chem. I rarely have a problem getting fish to eat. Even finicky ones like purple queen anthias, pencil wrasses and anampses wrasses.

[JackandJill]

@ jacknjill - did you start this store from scratch or did you take it over? I'm sorry you're going through this hassle. I'm wondering what the plan is for the next shipment coming in.

Both. I bought some inventory off of another store and picked up many of their orphaned customers but I am an independent and separate business.

In my experience as an LFS worker, the only financially feasible option for handling this sort of thing is to run elevated levels of copper. You run into the problem of fish lacking appetite, or the copper destroying the gut flora of the fish, making it so that the food they do eat will not help them much in terms of nutrients, however.

We run it at 0.55mg/L and test daily, and dose appropriately.

We haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year. Our only issue is flukes and other parasites, but we combat that by routinely (once monthly) running a weeklong treatment of praziquantel at 300%, dosed three times with three days between each treatment, as well as add praziquantel directly into the food batches we make three times weekly.

If you don't mind me asking, when you say "haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year" do you mean you have literally 0 problems with ich or velvet or that it has decreased its victim percentage by say...70%?

If you also don't mind me asking, on an average day how many fish will you typically lose for one reason or another out of the total average you have on hand at a given time?



Another thing I am curious about and wondering if anyone can give insight is why does saltwater ich, velvet, brook, and other parasites seem to take a better hold than freshwater ones? On an average day we lose 5-10 feeder guppies/minnows/goldfish but no other freshwater fish. However, our saltwater fish seem to be dropping daily (especially the last week). Wouldn't parasites be just as deadly in freshwater systems as saltwater? I haven't even noticed a single incidence of ich's trademark salt on a freshwater fish in two months, yet on half the marine fish it is visible.

Thank you everyone for the advice.

[Deinonych]

Another thing I am curious about and wondering if anyone can give insight is why does saltwater ich, velvet, brook, and other parasites seem to take a better hold than freshwater ones? On an average day we lose 5-10 feeder guppies/minnows/goldfish but no other freshwater fish. However, our saltwater fish seem to be dropping daily (especially the last week). Wouldn't parasites be just as deadly in freshwater systems as saltwater? I haven't even noticed a single incidence of ich's trademark salt on a freshwater fish in two months, yet on half the marine fish it is visible.

Thank you everyone for the advice.

I believe it has to do with the nature of collecting and transporting marine species. Most freshwater fish are aquacultured, whereas the majority of marine fish are collected from the wild. Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium are both parasites that persist in the animals' natural habitat. They only become problematic in captivity due to confinement and small volumes of water. In the wild, currents and large volumes of water prevent the parasites from becoming virulent.

[avandss]

i purchase fish from the LFS .chris. works at, it is very clean and i very rarely see disease in his tanks. again it WILL 100% mask most diseases, but they usually flush the entire system with FW and copper before receiving a new batch (to be confirmed by him)

now compared to every other lfs in town... they have the cleanest ones with a highest chance of survival

last batch of fish i got from his store had ich in my QT tanks and flukes.

not velvet, brook or anything nasty

as much as i want to agree with dosing copper, you are passing your problems down to your clients, and if they do not have a good qt protocol, it could hurt you in the long run if your system is not clean to begin with. if my fish showed signs of velvet of brook after a few times of purchasing from a lfs, i usually ban them from my list, and being a small community it can hurt your business as i would definitely tell other local reefers to avoid that lfs


Both. I bought some inventory off of another store and picked up many of their orphaned customers but I am an independent and separate business.



If you don't mind me asking, when you say "haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year" do you mean you have literally 0 problems with ich or velvet or that it has decreased its victim percentage by say...70%?

If you also don't mind me asking, on an average day how many fish will you typically lose for one reason or another out of the total average you have on hand at a given time?



Another thing I am curious about and wondering if anyone can give insight is why does saltwater ich, velvet, brook, and other parasites seem to take a better hold than freshwater ones? On an average day we lose 5-10 feeder guppies/minnows/goldfish but no other freshwater fish. However, our saltwater fish seem to be dropping daily (especially the last week). Wouldn't parasites be just as deadly in freshwater systems as saltwater? I haven't even noticed a single incidence of ich's trademark salt on a freshwater fish in two months, yet on half the marine fish it is visible.

Thank you everyone for the advice.

[snorvich]

as much as i want to agree with dosing copper, you are passing your problems down to your clients, and if they do not have a good qt protocol, it could hurt you in the long run if your system is not clean to begin with. if my fish showed signs of velvet of brook after a few times of purchasing from a lfs, i usually ban them from my list, and being a small community it can hurt your business as i would definitely tell other local reefers to avoid that lfs

That was why I did not support the copper suggestion. While it does mask the problem at the LFS, it always reappears for the end user.

[JackandJill]

if my fish showed signs of velvet of brook after a few times of purchasing from a lfs, i usually ban them from my list, and being a small community it can hurt your business as i would definitely tell other local reefers to avoid that lfs

Is there really any point in "banning" that LFS? Its not like they are going to have MORE brook in their system than any other LFS unless they just have a larger amount of fish coming through potentially. It's not like they are just so good they don't have brook, or ich, etc.


And correct me if I'm wrong but I would imagine as a customer you would be more likely to not revisit a store that had multiple fish clearly diseased than one that "looked" clean. Considering most LFS business is not advanced hobbysts but rather entry level, the concept of medicating, copper, parasite lifecycle, and masking diseases is not on the main customer's mind at all. They are more likely to notice the little white spots that everyone says are bad and spread the word that multiple fish are infected at that store.

That was why I did not support the copper suggestion. While it does mask the problem at the LFS, it always reappears for the end user.

I started my store with the intention of not dosing copper and maintaining water quality and feeding well with a variety of food to keep the fish's slime coat as protective as possible. However, after losing $200 of fish (cost) yesterday and ~$200 again today I am somewhat desperate as I cannot operate on a 3% margin (including deaths).

[gone fishin]

Is there really any point in "banning" that LFS? Its not like they are going to have MORE brook in their system than any other LFS unless they just have a larger amount of fish coming through potentially. It's not like they are just so good they don't have brook, or ich, etc.


I would and have stopped going to businesses because of this. If I buy livestock that are continuously diseased or die from a particular LFS I will not spend my dollars their. Their are a few in my area that meet this criteria. I wish you good luck in your endeavors.

[avandss]

I would and have stopped going to businesses because of this. If I buy livestock that are continuously diseased or die from a particular LFS I will not spend my dollars their. Their are a few in my area that meet this criteria. I wish you good luck in your endeavors.

exactly!

[avandss]

i realize you own a lfs, however as i said (burned multiple times, not once...multiple times) you would be crazy to go back. first of all i do not like losing fish. second waste of money medication time and stress.

i am not in the business of giving my LFS multiple chances, its not a friend. i pay for fish. i expect good livestock.

and it is doable, when i buy fish from .chris. even if he runs low levels of copper i never got anything nasty (my buddy either and has been buying from them for over 1 year)

and other lfs that look clean, i always get a fish with a nasty disease.... and i am not the only one.

so yes i 100% ban anyone that can not provide me with good livestock, especially when it is doable.


Is there really any point in "banning" that LFS? Its not like they are going to have MORE brook in their system than any other LFS unless they just have a larger amount of fish coming through potentially. It's not like they are just so good they don't have brook, or ich, etc.


And correct me if I'm wrong but I would imagine as a customer you would be more likely to not revisit a store that had multiple fish clearly diseased than one that "looked" clean. Considering most LFS business is not advanced hobbysts but rather entry level, the concept of medicating, copper, parasite lifecycle, and masking diseases is not on the main customer's mind at all. They are more likely to notice the little white spots that everyone says are bad and spread the word that multiple fish are infected at that store.



I started my store with the intention of not dosing copper and maintaining water quality and feeding well with a variety of food to keep the fish's slime coat as protective as possible. However, after losing $200 of fish (cost) yesterday and ~$200 again today I am somewhat desperate as I cannot operate on a 3% margin (including deaths).

[.Chris.]

Both. I bought some inventory off of another store and picked up many of their orphaned customers but I am an independent and separate business.



If you don't mind me asking, when you say "haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year" do you mean you have literally 0 problems with ich or velvet or that it has decreased its victim percentage by say...70%?

If you also don't mind me asking, on an average day how many fish will you typically lose for one reason or another out of the total average you have on hand at a given time?

Another thing I am curious about and wondering if anyone can give insight is why does saltwater ich, velvet, brook, and other parasites seem to take a better hold than freshwater ones? On an average day we lose 5-10 feeder guppies/minnows/goldfish but no other freshwater fish. However, our saltwater fish seem to be dropping daily (especially the last week). Wouldn't parasites be just as deadly in freshwater systems as saltwater? I haven't even noticed a single incidence of ich's trademark salt on a freshwater fish in two months, yet on half the marine fish it is visible.

Thank you everyone for the advice.

I mean I have literally not had a single case of velvet or brook since we have begun dosing copper. Only ich and flukes, and only rarely. Although I'm not sure why we even have ich, as we dose high enough for it to be killed by the copper. Flukes is a bit trickier, but we try to keep up with them by using praziquantel routinely. Unfortunately it's not a guarantee.

Obviously it depends on how many fish we have in the store (we're quite large, so we can have fluctuating levels of stock), but I'd say our mortality is 10%, across an entire order, excluding DOA. i.e. if we received 110 fish on an order, lose 10 on arival, we'll lose a total of ten more before we sell every fish from that order. We usually sell 75% of an order within a couple weeks, and the last 25% will hold on for a couple months.

[.Chris.]

i purchase fish from the LFS .chris. works at, it is very clean and i very rarely see disease in his tanks. again it WILL 100% mask most diseases, but they usually flush the entire system with FW and copper before receiving a new batch (to be confirmed by him)

now compared to every other lfs in town... they have the cleanest ones with a highest chance of survival

last batch of fish i got from his store had ich in my QT tanks and flukes.

not velvet, brook or anything nasty

as much as i want to agree with dosing copper, you are passing your problems down to your clients, and if they do not have a good qt protocol, it could hurt you in the long run if your system is not clean to begin with. if my fish showed signs of velvet of brook after a few times of purchasing from a lfs, i usually ban them from my list, and being a small community it can hurt your business as i would definitely tell other local reefers to avoid that lfs

avandss and I have had this discussion several times. From a business perspective, we try to keep our fish alive long enough to get them out the door, but we try to keep them as healthy as possible.

Again, at the levels we dose, we shouldn't have issues with ich, but avandss has personally reported that he had ich after buying fish from us. Although thinking about it further, we did do a transfer from a non-copper system to the main copper system. Perhaps they didn't sit long enough in the copper to kill it.


That was why I did not support the copper suggestion. While it does mask the problem at the LFS, it always reappears for the end user.

What would you propose as an alternative? Disease is a daily reality of an LFS, and with new orders weekly in a lot of cases, from all around the world, with no possible way of knowing how clean the fish are coming in, there's no good way to handle this. Proper QT protocols are, as you stated, financially infeasible.

Copper is the best solution, if dosed at appropriate levels and checked vigorously.

[pktech]

avandss and I have had this discussion several times. From a business perspective, we try to keep our fish alive long enough to get them out the door, but we try to keep them as healthy as possible.

Again, at the levels we dose, we shouldn't have issues with ich, but avandss has personally reported that he had ich after buying fish from us. Although thinking about it further, we did do a transfer from a non-copper system to the main copper system. Perhaps they didn't sit long enough in the copper to kill it.




What would you propose as an alternative? Disease is a daily reality of an LFS, and with new orders weekly in a lot of cases, from all around the world, with no possible way of knowing how clean the fish are coming in, there's no good way to handle this. Proper QT protocols are, as you stated, financially infeasible.

Copper is the best solution, if dosed at appropriate levels and checked vigorously.

So what would you guys suggest he do? I guess it would be too late to switch wholesalers right now.
Jack - do you have another shipment coming in? Can you load up on the freshwater side & ease off the sw side until you've handled the problem?

Chris & Avandss - I agree that I'd be hesitant to buy more fish from a store that simply didn't care. There are some stores near me that basically tell me sorry it died. But there are others who'll extend me credit & do their best to keep me coming back, I think this is where customer service is critical. When you told Chris about the ich & flukes, what did he do to keep your business? I can't imagine you were a happy dude.

Is it really one & done with who you do business with?

[JackandJill]

So what would you guys suggest he do? I guess it would be too late to switch wholesalers right now.
Jack - do you have another shipment coming in? Can you load up on the freshwater side & ease off the sw side until you've handled the problem?

What I am going to do, it seems, is dose copper on one of my systems and keep most of my fish in that system. The other system will not dose copper and instead utilize a large UV Sterilizer to help combat outbreaks and use this system for copper sensitive fish.

The wholesaler is not the problem, just as if a hobbyist receives ich it is not the LFS fault. These fish come from the ocean and as such there is going to be a percentage infected no matter what wholesaler or retailer you go through.

[avandss]

its not "pick one lfs and stick to it" however if i get the random disease from my lfs its fine, its part of the game, i understand that

since i know it is possible to have good livestock, and if i get "bad" livestock time after time from the same place and i get excuses like "well its not the lfs fault time after time" i would have to be crazy to ever step foot in that lfs again

it is a niche market, its simple, if you can not give that personal touch, service, positive attitude, good clean livestock clients will not buy from you

and right away saying disease happens its not my fault, i would not give them my business when so many other lfs have faith in the fish they sell and some are more than willing to credit or at least take every precaution to try to have the cleanest lfs and take the time to discuss everything with you

when i told .chris. i got ich his answer was not, its not my fault! first thing he did was try to figure out how it happened based on the protocols he has in his store, and then tried to help my right away and i am sure if i got a batch of fish that died of brook his answer would not be "thats not my fault"

i am not in the US, but everything i read about liveaquaria is positive, the quality of livestock they sell seems very good and they give a 14 guarantee on top of it! so it is possible to have quality livestock and they all come from the same source

So what would you guys suggest he do? I guess it would be too late to switch wholesalers right now.
Jack - do you have another shipment coming in? Can you load up on the freshwater side & ease off the sw side until you've handled the problem?

Chris & Avandss - I agree that I'd be hesitant to buy more fish from a store that simply didn't care. There are some stores near me that basically tell me sorry it died. But there are others who'll extend me credit & do their best to keep me coming back, I think this is where customer service is critical. When you told Chris about the ich & flukes, what did he do to keep your business? I can't imagine you were a happy dude.

Is it really one & done with who you do business with?