Upgrade 135- 300 gallons. Need advice

[jlnielsen13]

Hey guys and gals,

Hoping to get some advice from some of you guys! I am upgrading my current 135 gallon fish only to a 300 gallon softie reef. I already have a 140 gallon reef in a different room but am excited about this larger tank! I have a ton of questions and wanted to run them by you guys- it is going to be a difficult transfer because the tank is going in the same spot! I will be transferring a 1 foot Sohal Tang and a 1 foot queen angel along with a couple smaller fish.

1. Any general advice on the move is appreciated-

2. Can this be done in one day or should I try to find arrangements to house my fish for a week or so?

3. Should I save any of the old water, to be honest it isn't that clean, so is there any advantage to saving 100 gallons of old water or should I just start out fresh?

4. If parameters are okay, can I transfer the fish in that day? I guess it would be like a hospital tank but with live rock?

5. Any protein skimmer suggestions for a 300 gallon? If I am only going softies can I buy one rated for 200 gallons?

6. Any advice on storage containers or where to house all this extra water I will need to make?

Thanks to everyone for the help!

Looking forward to any and all ideas- I don't know what I got myself into here!

Jim

[Cbsailor11]

Following as I'm doing a similar winter project, moving from a 46 to a 180. I have been reading on tank tranfers and people moving for research. I would get some buckets, trashcans, air pumps, heaters, strong friends, newspaper(keep rocks damp).

1:see above
2: Yes, but its going to be a long one.
3: Most are using a mix of old and new unless you have something really off with your old water.
4: Yes, as long as pH, salinity, temp are all matched.
5: I went big here( INS450), future plans for another tank, frag system added to 180. I read that most go bigger than rated.
6: Brute cans seem to be the most used, also stock tanks. Need to maintain temp, circulation, and air.

If your adding any new rock or sand you may get a mini cycle, I am curing my rock ahead of the upgrade.

Chris

[BryanW]

going to post a INS 400 for sale if your looking for in sump skimmer

[jlnielsen13]

Could you PM me the price and a quick overview of condition.

Thanks,
JIM

[anbosu]

One day would be fine with the appropriate setup. I like using Brute trash cans for situations like this. You don't really need to move any of the water, just make sure the new water matches the existing water parameters pretty closely. With fish the biggest thing is making sure there isn't a huge change in the salinity.

I would not re-use the sand, since that can be problematic, especially with an aggressive timeline.

[rgulrich]

Holding your fish during the transfer will probably be the biggest problem (I tend to focus on the live stuff first). So, here's how I moved the contents of my 180 from the old house to the new house and new 300, in your order:
1. make a checklist and check it numerous times. Salt mix, mixing containers to hold the new capacity (in this instance 300 gallons or about 6 Brute containers). Double check the floor supporting the tank. Is it concrete? Fine. Wood? Get a structural engineer to tell you what you're going to need to support nearly 2400lbs-plus in that spot. You'll sleep better at night (and so will your insurance rep). All necessary fittings for the new filter system? Test fit the various parts to double check. Outlet power support the new filter system and lighting? These were some of the items on my list.

2. Plan on housing your fish for a day or so (and your live rock if its already cured and in with the fish), especially if you plan on mixing the salt in the new 300 vice 6 Brute containers. I know, but a gentle reminder none the less. I'd use a Rubbermaid Stock tank. I used a 150, and think that would be able to hold your fish as described for a few days comfortably. Just make sure you have a way of heating, providing water circulation, and if possible, skimming (aerates the water very well and pulls most of the nasties out of solution). Be careful with the drain plug, though. Plan on it leaking a little bit when you first pick it up. You might want to seal it with some teflon tape and/or tube sealer (plumbing section, hardware store) and test with fresh water first. Then fill with about 50% of the tank water you're draining and about 50% fresh mix (let it mix for 24 hrs first...I know, but we tend to forget the simplest things sometimes).

3. The above is where you're saving some of the old water - discard the remainder. Plan on discarding the holding tank water after the new aquarium is up and running.

4. I recommend (if you've mixed the salt water in the new 300) letting it mix for at least 24 hrs, preferably 48. This gives you a chance to make sure the fittings don't leak, the filter system works as intended, and your carefully laid plans from #1 above are paying off. And you don't risk your livestock as they're in the holding tank.

5. I'm using an RLSS DB-10i for my 300 reef - and I've had to pull back it back a little bit. I've used Tunze, Bubble King, and a few others, and so far this is one of the best I've come across. Smaller in-sump foot print, and pulls material out of solution quite well.

6. If you plan on picking up 6 grey Brute containers (or 7-8, to play it safe and have a little extra water for the filter system and such), they work quite well. I've been using 3 of them for my system for 8 years for RO/DI and mixing stations. Again, if you're on a concrete floor you're safe. If not, you need to have an engineer inspect and tell you what you'll need to do to support the weight. Simple calculation for approximation is the standard 8lbs X number of gallons...and add live rock on top of the results for a safety factor.

You're going to have fun, and your fish are going to love having the additional space to cruise around in.

Cheers!
Ray

[jlnielsen13]

Wow,

Appreciate the extra detail and help!

I will definitely keep an eye on all of those issues. The tank isn't in the best spot in the world. It is on an outside foundation wall (against the wall) on the first floor but running parallel with the floor joists. House was built in 2007 with engineered I Beam like floor joists every 16 inches. The tank may only hit one joist being 24 inches wide/deep. The basement is finished below, before I finished it myself I added a 20,000 lb wall jack underneath the parallel wall joist. Also, to hide that joist I built the basement wall with 2x4 frames running parallel with that joist.

SO basically the floor joist that runs parallel with the tank has one floor jack and about 8 2x4 posts with a header and a footer underneath. I am hoping that should be enough. I would really hate to tear down my whole basement wall.

Any thoughts are appreciated,

JIM


Holding your fish during the transfer will probably be the biggest problem (I tend to focus on the live stuff first). So, here's how I moved the contents of my 180 from the old house to the new house and new 300, in your order:
1. make a checklist and check it numerous times. Salt mix, mixing containers to hold the new capacity (in this instance 300 gallons or about 6 Brute containers). Double check the floor supporting the tank. Is it concrete? Fine. Wood? Get a structural engineer to tell you what you're going to need to support nearly 2400lbs-plus in that spot. You'll sleep better at night (and so will your insurance rep). All necessary fittings for the new filter system? Test fit the various parts to double check. Outlet power support the new filter system and lighting? These were some of the items on my list.

2. Plan on housing your fish for a day or so (and your live rock if its already cured and in with the fish), especially if you plan on mixing the salt in the new 300 vice 6 Brute containers. I know, but a gentle reminder none the less. I'd use a Rubbermaid Stock tank. I used a 150, and think that would be able to hold your fish as described for a few days comfortably. Just make sure you have a way of heating, providing water circulation, and if possible, skimming (aerates the water very well and pulls most of the nasties out of solution). Be careful with the drain plug, though. Plan on it leaking a little bit when you first pick it up. You might want to seal it with some teflon tape and/or tube sealer (plumbing section, hardware store) and test with fresh water first. Then fill with about 50% of the tank water you're draining and about 50% fresh mix (let it mix for 24 hrs first...I know, but we tend to forget the simplest things sometimes).

3. The above is where you're saving some of the old water - discard the remainder. Plan on discarding the holding tank water after the new aquarium is up and running.

4. I recommend (if you've mixed the salt water in the new 300) letting it mix for at least 24 hrs, preferably 48. This gives you a chance to make sure the fittings don't leak, the filter system works as intended, and your carefully laid plans from #1 above are paying off. And you don't risk your livestock as they're in the holding tank.

5. I'm using an RLSS DB-10i for my 300 reef - and I've had to pull back it back a little bit. I've used Tunze, Bubble King, and a few others, and so far this is one of the best I've come across. Smaller in-sump foot print, and pulls material out of solution quite well.

6. If you plan on picking up 6 grey Brute containers (or 7-8, to play it safe and have a little extra water for the filter system and such), they work quite well. I've been using 3 of them for my system for 8 years for RO/DI and mixing stations. Again, if you're on a concrete floor you're safe. If not, you need to have an engineer inspect and tell you what you'll need to do to support the weight. Simple calculation for approximation is the standard 8lbs X number of gallons...and add live rock on top of the results for a safety factor.

You're going to have fun, and your fish are going to love having the additional space to cruise around in.

Cheers!
Ray

[rgulrich]

Hey Jim,

For a basis of comparison, here's a photo of the support under my 300DD the structural engineer recommended:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7947&pictureid=67127
You can see the manufactured main (resting on the concrete blocks) at the far end. The end of the aquarium rests on that beam. The floor jacks and 2X8's (those are a pair of 2X8's per set of jacks) reinforce the floor joists. The foundation wall is to the left. This aquarium sits 2 feet from the wall, hence the distance on the left side of the photo.
All that said, this perspective is the end of the aquarium, supported by a set of two jacks, the middle by two jacks, and the far end by the main beam for the living room floor.
That would be the left side (jacks) to right side (resting on the main joist) of the aquarium in this photo from September:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7947&pictureid=67128

Again, I would recommend getting a structural engineer's recommendation before filling the aquarium. If they are licensed they should be able to provide you a signed and hopefully stamped recommendation that would cover you if their recommended approach ever fails - handy if you need your insurance to cover the damages. My engineer's visit cost $300 but was definitely worth it.

I hope this helps with your adventures!
Please don't hesitate to send a note if you have any questions. It is much better to do it right the first time than to pick up the pieces later.

Cheers,
Ray

p.s. Any pics of the Tang and Angel? I'd love to see them!

[jlnielsen13]

Posted this on another thread but would appreciate your thoughts:

Like stated above I am going from a 180gallon to a 300 gallon tank and had a couple questions about floor support. Here are two very scientific pictures to give you an idea and to help me with my questions:

http://images.photo2.walgreens.com/232323232%7Ffp83232%3Eydnjthgqubwsnrcgu%3B6%3A7%3Enu%3D49%3A2%3E8%3B4%3E237%3EWSNRCG%3D43786236%3C73 28nu0mrj

This first pic shows if you could see through the tank from above. The tank unfortunately runs parallel with one joist. Underneath it I placed a 20,000lb rated metal floor jack. Later I finished the basement and in order to hide the jack, ran the wall and studs along this entire floor joist pictured below:

http://images.photo2.walgreens.com/232323232%7Ffp83232%3Eydnjthgqubwsnrcgu79%3B2%3Enu%3D49%3A2%3E8%3B4%3E237%3EWSNRCG%3D43786236%3C6328 nu0mrj

I am thinking the floor jack along with 8 - 2x4's with a header and footer ram-set into that I-beam going along that beam should be enough. Plus, it is on an outside wall of my house. Floor joists are engineered Ibeams 16" apart. I think it really only hits one.

Any help is appreciated and if I need to explain more I'd be happy to as well.

Hey Jim,

For a basis of comparison, here's a photo of the support under my 300DD the structural engineer recommended:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7947&pictureid=67127
You can see the manufactured main (resting on the concrete blocks) at the far end. The end of the aquarium rests on that beam. The floor jacks and 2X8's (those are a pair of 2X8's per set of jacks) reinforce the floor joists. The foundation wall is to the left. This aquarium sits 2 feet from the wall, hence the distance on the left side of the photo.
All that said, this perspective is the end of the aquarium, supported by a set of two jacks, the middle by two jacks, and the far end by the main beam for the living room floor.
That would be the left side (jacks) to right side (resting on the main joist) of the aquarium in this photo from September:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=7947&pictureid=67128

Again, I would recommend getting a structural engineer's recommendation before filling the aquarium. If they are licensed they should be able to provide you a signed and hopefully stamped recommendation that would cover you if their recommended approach ever fails - handy if you need your insurance to cover the damages. My engineer's visit cost $300 but was definitely worth it.

I hope this helps with your adventures!
Please don't hesitate to send a note if you have any questions. It is much better to do it right the first time than to pick up the pieces later.

Cheers,
Ray

p.s. Any pics of the Tang and Angel? I'd love to see them!

[rgulrich]

Hmm. I'm not an engineer, but let me ask a few questions.

How far away from the outside wall did you place your basement wall (hiding the jack post)? I'm asking this just in case you may actually be sitting on two joists, which would be a bit better than one.
What type and how thick is the flooring you're putting the aquarium on?
How firmly is it attached to the foundation sill? By how many inches?
Is there any noticeable give to the floor or substantive vibration transferred to your current 180 when someone walks or jumps(!) nearby (we have a 13 yr old, cats, and dogs in the house...it happens). If there is, go back to the first suggestion and bring in the engineer.
Now why is any of this important? Well, if the attached flooring is weak, no matter how strong the underlying support a 20,000lb jack post may give, if the aquarium tilts and falls to one side or the other it doesn't matter. Kind of like tacking a couple sheets of 1/2" ply together to form a "T" and then standing a gallon of milk on the top. The results might be less than desirable.
If everything is rock-solid with your current setup and nothing has gone out of plumb in the time you've had it up and running, you should be fine, even though you're adding just shy of about 1000lbs to the load. Again, your insurance might not cover a catastrophic failure, though you should speak with them first.

Hope this helps in some way!
Cheers,
Ray

[jlnielsen13]

Thanks for the reply,

The wall is about 12inches off the concrete wall in the basement. I can't tell whether it would catch the joist that is on top of the concrete because I don't know exactly where the upstairs wall sits.

The aquarium is on hard wood floor planks. There is no movement at all with the tank. I know what you are talking about because when I set up my 140 gallon in the other room it moved a ton, so much I rebuilt the stand and secured it to the wall. The 180 gallon doesn't move at all even if you jump. The 180 has been in this spot for 7 years and it looks level and there is no damage to the floor. Getting my 140 level was a huge issue in the other room.

I wish I could tell if it hits more than one joist but hard to say where the wall on the first floor starts.

Thanks,

Jim


Hmm. I'm not an engineer, but let me ask a few questions.

How far away from the outside wall did you place your basement wall (hiding the jack post)? I'm asking this just in case you may actually be sitting on two joists, which would be a bit better than one.
What type and how thick is the flooring you're putting the aquarium on?
How firmly is it attached to the foundation sill? By how many inches?
Is there any noticeable give to the floor or substantive vibration transferred to your current 180 when someone walks or jumps(!) nearby (we have a 13 yr old, cats, and dogs in the house...it happens). If there is, go back to the first suggestion and bring in the engineer.
Now why is any of this important? Well, if the attached flooring is weak, no matter how strong the underlying support a 20,000lb jack post may give, if the aquarium tilts and falls to one side or the other it doesn't matter. Kind of like tacking a couple sheets of 1/2" ply together to form a "T" and then standing a gallon of milk on the top. The results might be less than desirable.
If everything is rock-solid with your current setup and nothing has gone out of plumb in the time you've had it up and running, you should be fine, even though you're adding just shy of about 1000lbs to the load. Again, your insurance might not cover a catastrophic failure, though you should speak with them first.

Hope this helps in some way!
Cheers,
Ray

[rgulrich]

Well Jim, I don't know if it would work but you could always try to see if an electronic stud finder can go through that much wood. Find one like a Zircon or some such that has a "DeepScan" mode. Be patient with it and you should have some good results finding your floor joists. Mine was pretty easy - the foundation for this room was new and so was the wall. The first 2" hole I bore through it confirmed my measurements (I know, the tough way to confirm such).

Cheers!
Ray

[Vilas]

Ray's advice is stellar.
I'll just share - I just upgraded to a 320. Also wanted in same place, so tried to do same day.
The @&£+ thing leaked. Make a contingency plan for if that happens! Luckily, I could just refill my 63 in a corner of the room and let them stay there for the time it took the new caulk to dry, plus leak tests. It only leaked after a few hours of being full, I'm just glad I hadn't yet moved my fish in.
I had to run out and buy storage for all that water (I use natural seawater, so only had jerry cans) and make a lot of emergency "solutions."
I wish I'd asked this Ray guy for advice.