drain/return question

[Sac39051]

so my Aqueon 150 has 2 overflows, total of 4 holes drilled for 1" plumbing. This setup is presumably for 2 out, 2 in (one in each overflow). I don't like the idea of having a maximum of 650 GPH flowing out of 1" pipes (x2).

My question is, would there be any downfall to me using 3 1" drains and only 1, 1" return? It would simplify the return plumbing since it would not have to be split in 2, and I have the potential for 1800ish GPH, which I like

Have not really seen it done, so there must be some sort of downfall I am not thinking of? I would really like to have the potential for more than 1200 GPH total, hence 3 drains instead of 2.

[sleepydoc]

How were you planning on plumbing it? What is the setup? Dual corner overflow? Check out the Herbie and bean animal overflows. 1" pipes can handle far more than 325 gph

[viggen]

There is no need to push that much water through your sump. You only need to turn the water volume over 2-5 times a hour. As a example my 475g I flow around 1,000 GPH through the sump which is just over 2x a hour.

Going with high flow through your sump can do more harm then good. Micro bubbles, poor skimmer effeciency, consume more power due to larger pump and the list goes on

Correct, you only need to use a single 1in return line to your tank. If you want you can split the line once it's on top of the tank if needed.....

Multiple drain lines is the best way to go so you have at least one backup incase one of the lines gets clogged for some reason...

[Sac39051]

The tank has 2 internal overflow boxes, with 2 holes each drilled in the bottom. Total of 4 holes that are drilled for 1" plumbing.

The flow charts I've seen show 1" plumbing capable of 600-650 GPH max. If I utilize the tank as it is intended (a drain and a return coming from each box), then I would only be able to run max 1200-1300 GPH due to the limitations of 1" plumbing.

I didn't want to say it earlier for fear of retribution, but this is going to be a FW system, not marine. That being said, I will not need a skimmer or other marine equipment.

Due to the heavy bio load I will have, I want to have at least 10x turnover through the sump (which will be a standard 55 gallon) with the potential of more. Additionally, and just as important, it would be nice to have the added protection of my drains being able to handle way more than I will ever want to pump in.

Was planning on using 2 of the Aqueon megaflow accessory kits originally, but with the concerns I have regarding not enough flow, I may reconsider.

Really, I want to know if there are any ill effects if I want to use 2 drains on one overflow box, and 1 drain and 1 return in the second overflow box.

[viggen]

Even with freshwater.... 10x turnover isn't worth the trouble.

On my 475g I have 3 - 1.5 in drains and two 1 in drains.... And I flow as stated around 1000 gph through them. The same 2-5x is true with freshwater

Why type of filtration are you doing? Wet dry? If so a 55g to me would be way to small for that much flow.... Lots of noise and more then likely lots of bubbles. I would also be worried the water would be going over the bio balls way to fast.

The 650gph max flow of a 1 in pipe shouldn't be pushed all the time, it could cause troubles if for any reason one of the lines gets clogged. Kinda like running a car at redline all day and every day.... You can do it but someday.... It will fail :(

If it was me and I wanted a good amount of flow... Go for 5x turnover and do a durso one two of the 4 drains... Use another one of the holes as a backup incase a durso fails and the 4th one as a return. I prefer a single return into the tank due to the water having more force behind it

[Sac39051]

I wasn't planning on wet/dry, probably socks and submersible bio, also wanted a small fuge.

My thought on having more than 2 drains was so that I would not get near their individual flow maximums. If I push 1000 gph through 3 drains capable of max 1950 gph, then I have a much better buffer then if I pump 1000 through 2 at 1300 gph. A lot more room for error and I can get the same flow without redlining so to say. But I do need this system to be pretty quiet.

[NanoReefWanabe]

first of all there is no reasoning the world anyone should be running anything other then a full siphon system on any tank…unless prohibited by space…

as for 1" pipes flowing anywhere near 600GPH they would have to be in full siphon, an air water mix in a durso or any other magic standpipe design is going to be noisy and flushing at that volume, there is no way around the physics of it…laminar flow in a 1" pipe with no noise is going to be around 150gph max…more then that will have audible noise, to what level you can tolerate the noise is everyones personal preference…personally i like zero noise and would never run anything other then a full spoon system…which has zero noise, zero bubbles and no risk of failure if properly implemented..

that said it is a little tricky to tune two overflow boxes in one body of water…

myself i would try to setup a bean system by making one box have a full siphon line and the other line in that box a dry emergency drain, and in the other box have a return and one line a residual flow, that said i believe bean himself has brought up issues with running his system split in two separate boxes so you may wish to search the topic or pm him…

i know you can run two herbie systems in one tank, then simply run your return line up the backside of the tank and split it as you see fit…

but under no circumstances would i run the tank with simple durso headaches…

as for ineffective nutrient export or poor skimming from too high a turnover, well that point has been beat like a dead horse…there is no consensus on whether it is better or worse to run higher flows through your sump or lower flows… a filter has a capacity, what it actually is, is a moot point, it will filter to its capacity whether the flow is fast or slow past it…it is a process of dilution and personally the faster you dilute the water the better.

power consumption is a lousy argument for slower flow, speedwaveDC pumps, consume half the power and put out more flow then most ehiem or since or magdrive pumps, and they are fully controllable and have feed timers…

bubbles and noise, also lousy arguments, if you properly implement a full siphon drain system, you have absolute dead silence, no bubbles or noise.

skimming and filtering well again, i already covered that...

[Sac39051]

Thx for the great info, I guess the Aqueon Megaflow accessory kit is just a durso and I would have lame or noisy flow with that method.

I suppose I will go with the dual herbs. Seems like the most simple way to maximize my flow and keep things relatively simple. I really didn't want to have plumbing on the outside, but it won't be seen and its not like the tank is going to be resting right up against the wall.

Thx for the help, forgive my noob sump knowledge

[Gorgok]

Running the return over the back also lets you use a more suitable pipe size like 1.5" so you actually get the flow out of the pump you expect...

[viggen]

power consumption is a lousy argument for slower flow, speedwaveDC pumps, consume half the power and put out more flow then most ehiem or since or magdrive pumps, and they are fully controllable and have feed timers…

bubbles and noise, also lousy arguments, if you properly implement a full siphon drain system, you have absolute dead silence, no bubbles or noise.

skimming and filtering well again, i already covered that...

So even using a DC pump at 500 gph wouldn't cost any less to run vs a DC pump pushing 1300 GPH? Yea Eheim's are great but old and will run for a very long time... MAG's are junk... but there are other effecient and quality pumps to choose from. I wasn't referring to comparing a cheap and power hungry pump vs a expensive and effecient pump. But the same quality pump at different flow rates. It's more about finding a pump that fits the budget of whoever is buying it.

You do not think 1300 GPH through a sump that's 12x48in outside diameter including a fuge (would that require 12-18in of the sump??) wouldn't have any issues? To me that's pretty small for that kind of flow.

Then again this is coming from someone who uses a durso pip that's not silent.... but pretty darn close.... and so far has given me 3+ years of completely trouble free service & was easy to build and setup :)

[uncleof6]

So even using a DC pump at 500 gph wouldn't cost any less to run vs a DC pump pushing 1300 GPH? Yea Eheim's are great but old and will run for a very long time... MAG's are junk... but there are other effecient and quality pumps to choose from. I wasn't referring to comparing a cheap and power hungry pump vs a expensive and effecient pump. But the same quality pump at different flow rates. It's more about finding a pump that fits the budget of whoever is buying it.

You do not think 1300 GPH through a sump that's 12x48in outside diameter including a fuge (would that require 12-18in of the sump??) wouldn't have any issues? To me that's pretty small for that kind of flow.

Then again this is coming from someone who uses a durso pip that's not silent.... but pretty darn close.... and so far has given me 3+ years of completely trouble free service & was easy to build and setup :)

No I don't think an 18" wide sump with 1300 gph running through it would have any issues at all. It is done routinely by those not caught up in ancient hearsay. 12" would be a bit more problamatic, but if you can get rid of the notion of teeth on the baffles, the noise is not too bad. Such ancient concepts are in as much need of changing as are the pumps used. Energy cost is the only argument that "holds water" for using low flow rates. "No issues" is meaningless anecdote, and energy cost is no longer a "fallback" excuse for running low flow rates. I suspect there are issues in your 475 gallon tank, @ 1000gph, that you don't know about, don't look for etc etc. That tank should be running up around 4 grand... ;)

Buying a pump is not always a question of budget, rather what pump will do the job WELL, and keep the long term costs down. Right now that is DC pumps, and dumping Eheims, and Mags, both of which the manufacturers are not bothering to update, and won't. (We agree on the mags being junk)

Also the ancient rule of thumb for tanks using undergravel filters was 3x to 5x per hour for marine systems, and lower for freshwater systems. These systems are not anything like the systems in use today, and the larger the larger the tank, the more "obsolete" these rules of thumb become, as the flow requirements increase drastically; no power heads are not additive: because they perform a different job than the main circulation does.

[viggen]

No I don't think an 18" wide sump with 1300 gph running through it would have any issues at all. It is done routinely by those not caught up in ancient hearsay. 12" would be a bit more problamatic, but if you can get rid of the notion of teeth on the baffles, the noise is not too bad. Such ancient concepts are in as much need of changing as are the pumps used. Energy cost is the only argument that "holds water" for using low flow rates. "No issues" is meaningless anecdote, and energy cost is no longer a "fallback" excuse for running low flow rates. I suspect there are issues in your 475 gallon tank, @ 1000gph, that you don't know about, don't look for etc etc. That tank should be running up around 4 grand... ;)

Buying a pump is not always a question of budget, rather what pump will do the job WELL, and keep the long term costs down. Right now that is DC pumps, and dumping Eheims, and Mags, both of which the manufacturers are not bothering to update, and won't. (We agree on the mags being junk)

Also the ancient rule of thumb for tanks using undergravel filters was 3x to 5x per hour for marine systems, and lower for freshwater systems. These systems are not anything like the systems in use today, and the larger the larger the tank, the more "obsolete" these rules of thumb become, as the flow requirements increase drastically; no power heads are not additive: because they perform a different job than the main circulation does.

He stated a 55g as a sump which is 12in deep and not 18in as you claim. Dimensions are approx 48x12 then subtract maybe a foot or so for a fuge and the sump area drops to 36x12? That is if the fuge is 12x12... Not sure how big the fuge should be on his tank.


With my tank parameters are all in check.... Fish are all growing like weeds, curious what issues you state I should be experiencing? I do have additional circulation inside the tank. Presently +/-50% of the water going to my sump passes through my skimmer with the majority directly from overflow... About to pull the plug on a new skimmer where I can run closer to 100% of flow through the skimmer directly from the overflow.


Budget - I am sure there are some but most of us in the real world have a budget for just about anything we buy. if I only have $275 in the bank I wouldn't go buy a $900+ red dragon pump. I would go out and buy the best pump I can in my $275 budget.

[uncleof6]

He stated a 55g as a sump which is 12in deep and not 18in as you claim. Dimensions are approx 48x12 then subtract maybe a foot or so for a fuge and the sump area drops to 36x12? That is if the fuge is 12x12... Not sure how big the fuge should be on his tank.

I did not make any such claim... though I did misread one of your comments (12" - 18") that refered to something related to the dimsions of a sump section, a figure which has absolutely nothing to do with the noise the sump might make, and neither do any of the other dimensions of the sump, except the width. If you design the sump well, you may get some noise out of a 12" sump at 1300 gph, but nothing like you are implying.

With my tank parameters are all in check.... Fish are all growing like weeds, curious what issues you state I should be experiencing? I do have additional circulation inside the tank. Presently +/-50% of the water going to my sump passes through my skimmer with the majority directly from overflow... About to pull the plug on a new skimmer where I can run closer to 100% of flow through the skimmer directly from the overflow.

Since a marine aqaurium (or any type aquarium) is a multi-pass system, there is no point to doing either of the things you suggest... you have it setup as a single pass system, and multip-pass is far more efficient. There is a great deal more to it, but far out of the context of my response which dealt with flow rate through the sump. On the parameters, many folks say "no issues," but that does not mean there are not issues...

Budget - I am sure there are some but most of us in the real world have a budget for just about anything we buy. if I only have $275 in the bank I wouldn't go buy a $900+ red dragon pump. I would go out and buy the best pump I can in my $275 budget.

I did not say anything about a red dragon, I believe I said keeping long term costs down, there are better pumps available. Don't have the money today? Slow down, and buy it next month or the month after. Folks get in too much of a hurry... so yes, power consumption is a lousy excuse for running low flow rates, because the higher flow rate pumps of the type being discussed use less power... and so is budget for that matter: an RLSS Wavline DC4000 is priced around $140.00 from Premium Aqautics... I think that would fit in your $275.00 budget with money leftover to invest in something else worthwhile... :)

[viggen]

Noise isn't really my concern with his setup or at least my main concern since a quality pump will be silent and properly designed overflow plumbing will also be quiet.

My concerns were mostly dealing with micro bubbles and most importantly enough room in the sump to hold water when the power shuts off. Yes properly designed those wouldn't be a issue however it goes back to the room he has to work with..... a 55g minus a fuge doesn't leave to much to work with. To much flow and the water level inside the tank will be to much for his sump to hold the water when the power goes out. If this is the case where the sump doesn't have room hopefully he plans on a auto top off setup as well as a drain in the sump so it cannot overflow.

You state you never made such a claim however if you look a post or two up you state "No I don't think an 18" wide sump with 1300 gph running through it would have any issues at all." ...... Then you state ........ "12 would be a bit more problamatic"


Correct many rush into things and buy what fits the budget today vs waiting a bit longer and getting something better in a higher $$$ budget. No, I will not try the new Chinese dc pumps, read way to many horror stories of the pumps failing. I will get one someday, but not anytime soon.

I didn't say you did mention anything about red dragon pumps.... Budget referance

[uncleof6]

Noise isn't really my concern with his setup or at least my main concern since a quality pump will be silent and properly designed overflow plumbing will also be quiet.

My concerns were mostly dealing with micro bubbles and most importantly enough room in the sump to hold water when the power shuts off. Yes properly designed those wouldn't be a issue however it goes back to the room he has to work with..... a 55g minus a fuge doesn't leave to much to work with. To much flow and the water level inside the tank will be to much for his sump to hold the water when the power goes out. If this is the case where the sump doesn't have room hopefully he plans on a auto top off setup as well as a drain in the sump so it cannot overflow.

Micro bubbles are a function of the type of drain system used, how the skimmer is adjusted, and the height of the waterfalls from section to section in the sump.

A sump should never run more than around 1/2 full, in normal operation. Generally, that is plenty of spare room for power out drain down.

In sump "fuges" are for the most part, ineffective due to implementation issues. If there isn't room for the size "fuge" wanted, it is hardly a crisis; it can be done away with.

The flow rate has nothing to do with the water level in the tank, rather it is determined by the weir height (the overflow height.)

Really, all of this is irrelevant to the flow rate... :)

You state you never made such a claim however if you look a post or two up you state "No I don't think an 18" wide sump with 1300 gph running through it would have any issues at all." ...... Then you state ........ "12 would be a bit more problamatic"

He stated a 55g as a sump which is 12in deep and not 18in as you claim.
To this I responded:

I did not make any such claim... though I did misread one of your comments (12" - 18") that refered to something related to the dimsions of a sump section, a figure which has absolutely nothing to do with the noise the sump might make, and neither do any of the other dimensions of the sump, except the width. If you design the sump well, you may get some noise out of a 12" sump at 1300 gph, but nothing like you are implying.

I think you need to read more carefully, as I never said a 55 gallon tank is 18" wide. I MISREAD this statement, I only scanned the post, as it contains some information irrelevant to the sound level in the sump:

would that require 12-18in of the sump??In doing so, translating it to mean a 12 - 18" wide sump... it happens; I made no claim that a 55 gallon tank is 18" wide.

Correct many rush into things and buy what fits the budget today vs waiting a bit longer and getting something better in a higher $$$ budget. No, I will not try the new Chinese dc pumps, read way to many horror stories of the pumps failing. I will get one someday, but not anytime soon.Perhaps, update the information you have on hand? Several of us are running RLSS Waveline pumps, (Canadian) and I have not heard of any failures, since these long awaited pumps were released for the U.S market. Again, the RLSS Waveline DC4000 pump I mentioned is less money, than many similar AC pumps.

I didn't say you did mention anything about red dragon pumps.... Budget referanceOk. I don't recommend Red Dragons, unless someone is wanting extravagant...