Overall poor coral health

[callmesaul8889]

I started a 34 gallon Solana all-in-one almost exactly a year and a half ago. I started with 25lbs of dry rock and 10lbs of live rock from a display tank. I planned on this tank being my first SPS dominated mixed reef. I've had decent luck in the past with a 20g all in one LPS tank, but it was during college and funds were limited.

When I started this tank, I planned on buying quality products. I am making my own RO/DI water at 0TDS, using E.S.V. salt mix, testing salinity with a refractometer, and all of my test kits (aside from one or two) are Salifert brand. I also sold the Solana metal halide and replaced it with an AI Hydra (and then eventually upgraded to the Hydra 52 due to a lack of SPS color).

About six months into the tank is when I noticed I had red bugs. I was noticing poor coloration on SPS and very little polyp extension. I tried as much as I could to find Interceptor to kill the red bugs, but after no luck I resorted to using Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer as per this thread: Another option for red bugs (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1965880). I followed dosage instructions and dipped the SPS in a mixture, rinsed them as much as I could, and placed them back into the tank. Shortly after the dips, I noticed there were a lot of copepods and amphipods floating around the tank, and then eventually my skunk cleaner shrimp died. Even with a massive rinse after the red bug treatment dip, the chemicals were powerful enough to bomb my entire tank's worth of crustaceans.

Since treating my tank for red bugs, my SPS coloration and polyp extension has been even worse than before, hardy LPS seem to be OK but are growing very slowly, and almost no growth from zoas or mushrooms. It has been nearly a year since I treated, and since then I've kept a very light bio load with no more than 2 small fish at a time. Currently, I only have 1 clownfish. Some of the coral appeared slightly better recently and I noticed some aptasia, so I just added a peppermint shrimp two days ago and found it dead today. My clownfish is acting fine, though.

All of my parameters are spot on, and yet my corals look like crap and I'm wondering what my next step should be.

Any help is appreciated.

Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 0
Ammonia - 0
Calcium - 450
Alkalinity - 8.4
Magnesium - 1350
PH - 8.0

SG - 1.025
Temp - 78* F

Tunze 9002 skimmer running 24/7 (very inconsistent skimmate) and a newly added ball of chaeto. I ran Chemi-Pure Elite from day one until last week when I replaced the bag with chaeto.

[bertoni]

Hmm, the active ingredients seem to be imidacloprid and C-cyfluthrin. I don't know what to do. How long ago did you do this treatment? About six months ago? I'll have to check as to the half-life of those chemicals. The imidacloprid seems to decay quickly, but the decay byproducts could be toxic, too.

Those numbers are all fine, although I might get second opinions on them, just as a precaution.

For the time being, I'd run a lot of fresh carbon, maybe even a full cup.

[callmesaul8889]

Hmm, the active ingredients seem to be imidacloprid and C-cyfluthrin. I don't know what to do. How long ago did you do this treatment? About six months ago? I'll have to check as to the half-life of those chemicals. The imidacloprid seems to decay quickly, but the decay byproducts could be toxic, too.

Those numbers are all fine, although I might get second opinions on them, just as a precaution.

For the time being, I'd run a lot of fresh carbon, maybe even a full cup.

It's been almost a year since I dipped for red bugs. Since that time, I've done plenty of 20%+ water changes and I've even done a 50% water change when I removed all my sand and went bare bottom. While I was sucking out the sand, I blasted my rock with a turkey baster in a bucket and cleaned out all of the crevices.

I'll take some water to the LFS this week and see if they can confirm the numbers.

I've run plenty of carbon and chemi-pure elite in the past year. I'll see if I have any more carbon and a baggie.

[bertoni]

Well, you might have to discard the rock and clean the equipment. I might try setting up a small system with new live rock and moving a coral frag from the main tank to see how it does.

[callmesaul8889]

I might try setting up a small system with new live rock and moving a coral frag from the main tank to see how it does.

I'll keep this in mind. My main system isn't exactly large to begin with, so it would practically be a second system. :)

[lafayettereefer]

Your system may be too sterile and possibly starving your corals. 0s across the board = no food for corals

[callmesaul8889]

Your system may be too sterile and possibly starving your corals. 0s across the board = no food for corals

I came to this conclusion about a month ago. I've been feeding almost daily instead of 3x a week since. That doesn't really explain why a peppermint shrimp would only last 2 days in my tank after a full acclimation period and perfectly acceptable params. I'm afraid to get another one because I have no way of knowing if there's something still wrong with my tank or it was a fluke.

[JoelA7]

Irrespective of all else I doubt it was the bayer advanced. So long as you did excellent rinse it should be ok.

[callmesaul8889]

Here's a pic of the tank tonight. You can see how pale the cyphastrea is in the front, and the pale encrusting sps on the right side that should be deep red. Even the tiny patch green star polyps in the middle on the shell have receded more than they've grown. In 1.5 years.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/02/c7b7492efb2e05e39d8327bd0a1caefe.jpg

[Geeray]

I suspect your nutrients are too low. Many people have used bayer without any problems. As for the shrimp sometimes they just die so I wouldn't put to much stock in that. Have a read on the coral forums it seems a lot of people have issues with low nutrients now.

[callmesaul8889]

I suspect your nutrients are too low. Many people have used bayer without any problems. As for the shrimp sometimes they just die so I wouldn't put to much stock in that. Have a read on the coral forums it seems a lot of people have issues with low nutrients now.

Will do.

My current plan is to feed daily until I see some kind of bump in the nitrate or phosphate numbers. Should I avoid any water changes until I get some readings? If I don't do a WC tonight, it will be 1.5 weeks since my last one and my calc and mag are fine, so skipping one doesn't seem like it should matter too much.

[dkeller_nc]

It's very unlikely that you have residual imidacloprid from a year ago. Though it has a fairly long life in the environment compared to some types of pesticides, it would all be degraded by now.

It's hard to know for sure, but your peppermint shrimp death may have just been a fluke.

A couple of things to check - when is the last time you calibrated your salinity measurement device, and with what did you calibrate it? Inverts, crustaceans in particular, don't like big changes in salinity.

How far is the distance between your Hydra 52 light fixture and your water surface, and at what intensity/schedule do you run the light on? Spectral information would help a diagnosis as well (i.e., list what intensities you run the various LED colors at).

[callmesaul8889]

when is the last time you calibrated your salinity measurement device, and with what did you calibrate it?


It's been a while since I've calibrated, but I measure all of my salt mix ingredients by weight aiming for 1.025 SG and that's exactly what my refractometer reads once mixed. I have a bottle of calibration fluid. I will check tonight.


How far is the distance between your Hydra 52 light fixture and your water surface, and at what intensity/schedule do you run the light on? Spectral information would help a diagnosis as well (i.e., list what intensities you run the various LED colors at).

I started with the 52 roughly 15" above the surface of the water with all of the levels at 40% along with an overall 30% acclimation reduction. Over time, I reduced the acclimation percentage down to 0 and eventually (after seeing no progress in color) began raising the deep blue, royal blue, violet, and UV channels up to around 75% - 80%. Currently, the white channel is at 53%, the blue channels are in the 80% range, and the green and red channels are still at 40%.

[outssider]

Irrespective of all else I doubt it was the bayer advanced. So long as you did excellent rinse it should be ok.

+1
I use this method all the time for dipping new sps. I've had no problems with shrimp or anything else. And the bayer works.....

I don't know where your problem is, but it's not the bayer....

[callmesaul8889]

+1
I use this method all the time for dipping new sps. I've had no problems with shrimp or anything else. And the bayer works.....

I

What strength mixture do you use? Also, how many rinses before they go back in the tank and what amount of water are you rinsing in? My full system is only 34 gallons, so I don't have much of a buffer.

[dkeller_nc]

I started with the 52 roughly 15" above the surface of the water with all of the levels at 40% along with an overall 30% acclimation reduction. Over time, I reduced the acclimation percentage down to 0 and eventually (after seeing no progress in color) began raising the deep blue, royal blue, violet, and UV channels up to around 75% - 80%. Currently, the white channel is at 53%, the blue channels are in the 80% range, and the green and red channels are still at 40%.

This is a bit of a guess, but I would think with that powerful of a fixture, and depending on the length of the photoperiod, you may be nuking your corals. That wouldn't have anything to do with the inverts like the shrimp, of course, but the Hydra 52 produces a very high PAR directly under the fixture, which would be the case for your tank. The high UV levels would particularly concern me.

There's a very lengthy thread on the Hydra 52 in the Equipment forum. You might want to skim this - it'd give you an idea of what settings others are using.

[callmesaul8889]

This is a bit of a guess, but I would think with that powerful of a fixture, and depending on the length of the photoperiod, you may be nuking your corals. That wouldn't have anything to do with the inverts like the shrimp, of course, but the Hydra 52 produces a very high PAR directly under the fixture, which would be the case for your tank. The high UV levels would particularly concern me.



There's a very lengthy thread on the Hydra 52 in the Equipment forum. You might want to skim this - it'd give you an idea of what settings others are using.



I just briefly browsed through it and I think I'm going to start lowering the UV and the white channels and see if that improves anything at all. I'm not sure how useful this info is, but the colors that have faded the most are purple, blue, and red. Green and yellow colors are still quite vibrant.

[tmz]

The cyfluthrin in the Bayer insecticide is a pyrethroid,a synthetic pyrethrin Pyrethroids are highly toxic to aquatic life in concentrations as low as parts per trilllion. Anecdotal reports from users for dips generally do not report negative side effects associated it's use but a few do .

This is from the EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reevaluation/pyrethroids-pyrethrins.html

from it:


Ecological Risk Mitigation

Pyrethroids are highly toxic to aquatic organisms. Because the pyrethroids can accumulate in sediments, risk to sediment-dwelling organisms is an area of particular concern. Recent water quality monitoring efforts in California have identified pyrethroids in sediments of water bodies adjacent to residential/urban areas. These monitoring data, coupled with additional pyrethroid-specific data submitted to the Agency, highlight existing concerns regarding residential uses of pyrethroid pesticide products and movement into non-target areas through runoff or spray drift that may occur during applications.
To reduce exposure to water bodies from non-agricultural and agricultural uses of pyrethroids, the Agency deployed the following labeling initiatives. Environmental Hazard and General Labeling for Pyrethroid and Synergized Pyrethrins Non-agricultural Outdoor Products (http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reevaluation/environmental-hazard-statment.html) – Revised February 2013 – To reduce exposure from residential uses of pyrethroids and pyrethrins products, EPA implemented a 2009 labeling initiative, with minor revisions in 2013, requiring revised Environmental Hazard Statements and general Directions for Use for pyrethroid and pyrethrins pesticide products used in non-agricultural outdoor settings. The label statements spell out good stewardship and best-management practices and clarify how these types of products are intended to be used.
These label statements serve to reduce the potential for runoff and drift to water bodies that can result from applications of pyrethroid end-use products in residential, commercial, institutional, and industrial areas, applied by both professional pesticide control operators and residential consumers.

So. it's possible cyfluthrin is an issue in this case. I'd try GAC perhaps ployfilter . Apparently. it does not breakdown readily in water like it does in the air and sunlight of a garden. I don't know if it has an affinity for GAC or organic sorbing rsins though they may help.

[tmz]

Setting aside the cyfluthirn issue , lighting and/or nutrient deffici9encies may be harming the corals. They appear to be paling.

FWIW, I'd try less lighting intensity and raise the PO4 and NO3 to detecable levels( say, 0.02 to 0.04ppm for PO$ and 0.2 to ,1ppm for NO3). Extra feeding and less removal via GFO etc for a while should allow that to happen.

[outssider]

What strength mixture do you use? Also, how many rinses before they go back in the tank and what amount of water are you rinsing in? My full system is only 34 gallons, so I don't have much of a buffer.

I use 2ml/cup. (30 minutes) If I'm dipping frags, ....maybe 4 cups of water about. for rinse water I always have a bunch of old water-change water that I save. I use two rinses of several cups each. rotate your hands so using right hand for transfer of frag from bayer to rinse and left hand to transfer frag to second rinse. I have done several frags and placed into a tank as small as 10 gallons that had snails and hermit crabs without any problems at all. I have also done big colonies. It works, with no ill effects.

[callmesaul8889]

FWIW, I'd try less lighting intensity and raise the PO4 and NO3 to detecable levels( say, 0.02 to 0.04ppm for PO$ and 0.2 to ,1ppm for NO3). Extra feeding and less removal via GFO etc for a while should allow that to happen.

I've dropped down the LED intensity and I'm going to continue heavier feeding until I see some nitrate and phosphate numbers.

I use 2ml/cup. (30 minutes) If I'm dipping frags, ....maybe 4 cups of water about. for rinse water I always have a bunch of old water-change water that I save. I use two rinses of several cups each. rotate your hands so using right hand for transfer of frag from bayer to rinse and left hand to transfer frag to second rinse. I have done several frags and placed into a tank as small as 10 gallons that had snails and hermit crabs without any problems at all. I have also done big colonies. It works, with no ill effects.

Thank you. I'm going to assume I didn't rinse the frags enough when I dipped.