ABout to order the glass for baffles

[pdiehm]

Before I do, wanted to get opinions on these dimensions.

My skimmer section is approximately 12" wide x 9" tall.

My Return section is approximately 6" wide x 8" (may make it 9) tall

My refugium section is 16" wide x 11" tall (may make it 12 or even 10).

What do you guys (and gals) think?

[billdogg]

what size DT and sump? That seems like a pretty small return section unless you will have an ATO.

[pdiehm]

40 gallon breeder. No ATO yet. I thought 9 (maybe 10") deep x 6" x 17.5" would be good.

What size return area would you recommend?

[woodnaquanut]

I made the mistake of making the return area too small. It only holds about a gallon of water above the pump. One little glitch with the ATO and it's a bubble fest in the DT!

Make sure you have enough capacity for the return section.

[billdogg]

I use a 40b for the sump on my 120. the return section is 18x11x12. I use an eheim 1262 for the return, with a pvc 45 elbow on the end in case I forget to top off. (no ATO)

[pdiehm]

So you don't have a refugium? My skimmer takes up 12" of the 36". I could expand it to say 8" wide x9" high. Makes my fuge area 14"

[uncleof6]

So you don't have a refugium? My skimmer takes up 12" of the 36". I could expand it to say 8" wide x9" high. Makes my fuge area 14"

Skimmer section: Sized to fit the skimmer.

Return section: Large enough to contain enough volume to allow the pump to run without burning out due to evaporative loss for several days, whether or not you have an ATO.

Fuge section: Irrelevant. Much abused, and not properly tasked.

Billdog: no way I would run an Eheim pump on a 120. What a waste of a good tank... ;)

[billdogg]

To each there own, uncle, but what is your reason for not liking my choice of return pumps? IMHO, it is a good size for the system. It is big enough to run both my reactors in addition to it's primary job of moving water to the DT. It does not generate anywhere near the heat of many other pumps, and does not use an unreasonable amount of electricity. It will also outlast pretty much any pump you can name. I have one as a part of my 150 that is now well over 30 years old and still going strong. (well, I did have to replace the impeller. once)

[pdiehm]

Ok, I need to ask. The dimensions I have is approximately 25 gallons. Plan was to throw in some rock rubble, and some algae of sorts. Would that not work?

I haven't ordered the glass yet. So you are saying, skimmer, bubble trap and the rest for the return section?

[billdogg]

If you can swing it, there is nothing wrong with an area in the sump to be used as a refugium of sorts, although most end up being too small to amount to much (mine included) I have the center section of the 40b filled with leftover rock from the DT. It is teeming with pods, mini brittle stars, etc, and surely must help with biological filtration.

[uncleof6]

To each there own, uncle, but what is your reason for not liking my choice of return pumps? IMHO, it is a good size for the system. It is big enough to run both my reactors in addition to it's primary job of moving water to the DT. It does not generate anywhere near the heat of many other pumps, and does not use an unreasonable amount of electricity. It will also outlast pretty much any pump you can name. I have one as a part of my 150 that is now well over 30 years old and still going strong. (well, I did have to replace the impeller. once)

Completely antiquated and inadequate flow rate for the system size.

I have a little giant TE5-MD-HC 1500gph give or take, (I changed the entire volute from 1" in and 1/2" out to 1" in and 1" out, changing the bias from pressure to flow&mdashelective surgery) that is older than your eheim, in continuous service. Pumps seldom fail unless you don't take care of them.... I have a crate full of old pumps, iwakis, march pumps, and lg pumps all still working ... I would not hesitate to put any of them into service. Average service hours is 175000 (20 years.) I replaced a couple noisy bearings here and there, and a couple impellers...

As far as heat goes, DC pumps have higher flow rates, and since the "watts" are much lower, they are also cooler, than the Eheims. Do you have a heater in your system? If so, why are you concerned about heat from the pump? Everyday the excuses for low flow get weaker and weaker, usually flat out debunked. ;):hammer::bounce2::deadhorse:

My comment was not quite so serious as all that.... I am not really interested in a flow rate debate...

[pdiehm]

If you can swing it, there is nothing wrong with an area in the sump to be used as a refugium of sorts, although most end up being too small to amount to much (mine included) I have the center section of the 40b filled with leftover rock from the DT. It is teeming with pods, mini brittle stars, etc, and surely must help with biological filtration.


Would I be better served making 3 sections of 12"?

[uncleof6]

If you can swing it, there is nothing wrong with an area in the sump to be used as a refugium of sorts, although most end up being too small to amount to much (mine included) I have the center section of the 40b filled with leftover rock from the DT. It is teeming with pods, mini brittle stars, etc, and surely must help with biological filtration.

Acutally, your fuge is not performing "biological filtration" enough to keep up the with production rate in the fuge. That is the problem with mis-tasking/mis-use of in-sump fuges. The entire sump is either an export (water treatment) facility, or it is only contributing to the problems. The additional "biological filtration" is really redundant and supurfluous (talk about redundancy) as I have yet to run across a tank that was not producing enough nitrates.... think big brown bio-balls, plus the wastes from the critters that are proliferating so well. E.G. the fuge is adding to the burden on the system: Increased Biological Oxygen Demand, increased DOC levels, with lower Oxygen levels as a result. (flow rate)

[uncleof6]

Would I be better served making 3 sections of 12"?

Honestly, you would be better served in attending to the needs of the skimmer size, and the needs of the pump for survival, and not be so concerned over a fuge.

[pdiehm]

Alright. I will give the skimmer 14", and the rest for the return. Water level will be 10" in the return area and 9" in the skimmer area. Will cap the tee and go from there.

[rwb500]

how will the water be higher in the return area than the skimmer area?

Also, there is definitely some value to a "refugium" (or whatever you want to call it) filled with chaeto. its a very common method of nutrient export. I wouldnt simply take advice from this one guy.

heat from pumps is still a concern even if you have a heater (its called summertime..) and i have no clue why he told us so much about his pump collection.

[pdiehm]

I can set the inside baffle to an inch higher than the skimmer section.

It's my first saltwater tank, first sump. What I may do is just run a small section of 1" PVC and put a cap on it for future use if I would ever go for a fuge. For every person who says they are good, there are 2 who say no, no needs

[pdiehm]

The pump I am using is the Sicce Syncra Silent 4.0

[pdiehm]

Ok, after talking it over with a friend, and then getting various feedback here, I've decided to expand the skimmer area 2"

Skimmer section 17 3/8 x 14 x 9

The rest of my 40 gallon breeder will be dedicated to the return at 9" high. This will allow me to have plenty of room for heaters, and a pump for a GFO/Carbon reactor.

The decision was essentially based that the most water volume was 11 gallons, which is not overly big enough for an effective refugium.

[fishgate]

I would not make the return section too deep. See my post on converting a 40b to a sump. If you lose your drain due to a clog this is the volume of water that will pump up into your tank. My return section is about an inch wider than my 1262 pump. It has run down on occasion and it does not seem to hurt the pump at all. There is always a little water in there to keep it from burning out. My Tuze Osmolator failed the other day the electric eye crudded up and let it run way down. I noticed after the pump had been running near dry for awhile. No harm.

[uncleof6]

I would not make the return section too deep. See my post on converting a 40b to a sump. If you lose your drain due to a clog this is the volume of water that will pump up into your tank. My return section is about an inch wider than my 1262 pump. It has run down on occasion and it does not seem to hurt the pump at all. There is always a little water in there to keep it from burning out. My Tuze Osmolator failed the other day the electric eye crudded up and let it run way down. I noticed after the pump had been running near dry for awhile. No harm.

Not going to lose the drain, he is running a BA system.

Second your return section is impractically small, and you are certainly lucky you have not lost the pump. Sucking air is very bad for the pump volute and impeller. (it is the same as cavitation.) Such a small area for the pump affects the cooling of the pump as well. Have something go haywire for a week or two while you are surfing in Tahiti, and I think the story will come out different.

[pdiehm]

Fortunately I haven't had the tank up and running for more than a few hours at a time to test things out.

Like I mentioned above, I think for my first go round with a salty tank, I'm going to skip the fuge, and just have a skimmer, and a return area. This will allow me to worry about getting the jist of a saltwater tank down without having to perform more maintenance on a fuge.

In my mind, I thought a section 6.5" wide x 17 1/2" deep x 9" tall would give the pump enough water.

I have to cut the Tee off the PVC, get some PVC fitting to fix the gap, and just worry about making sure I can keep the parameters right and such.

[fishgate]

Not going to lose the drain, he is running a BA system.

Second your return section is impractically small, and you are certainly lucky you have not lost the pump. Sucking air is very bad for the pump volute and impeller. (it is the same as cavitation.) Such a small area for the pump affects the cooling of the pump as well. Have something go haywire for a week or two while you are surfing in Tahiti, and I think the story will come out different.

Have you ever done it? You have a lot of extra equipment I'd be interested if you would let a return pump pump up to a tank and then don't replenish the reservoir and see how long it lasts. My guess is a long long time. I had a mag 7 on my old system and it would run for days before I realized it has run dry never had any issues with it. I agree not the desired action but also not the dire outcome some make it out to be.

[uncleof6]

Have you ever done it? You have a lot of extra equipment I'd be interested if you would let a return pump pump up to a tank and then don't replenish the reservoir and see how long it lasts. My guess is a long long time. I had a mag 7 on my old system and it would run for days before I realized it has run dry never had any issues with it. I agree not the desired action but also not the dire outcome some make it out to be.

I have made every mistake that you have ever heard of, and probably some mistakes you have not heard of. ;)

Based on your experience, the only way to prevent a flood if a drain plugs is to allow an "undesireable" action (by your own words) to take place. E.G, allowing a pump to run dry, and based on your experience, you do not believe the outcome to be very serious, or even potentially so. Can't argue with your experience.

Based on my experience, I have had pumps die due to running dry. I also have a good sized box of other folks dead pumps that I have replaced over the years, right next to all my "extra equipment," that died for a variety of reasons, heading the list of causes is dry running, next in line is cavitation. I don't need to ruin a working piece of equipment to know it is a problem.

Based on my experience, I have learned how to run systems that do not suffer (from preventable) "undesirable" actions, casued by drain clogs, ATO failures, pumps running dry, thus preventing floods and damaged equipment, etc. Nothing is foolproof, nothing is 100% failsafe, pumps can fail for sometimes inexplicable reasons, pipes break for unknown reasons, seams in tanks split, when you are surfing in Tahiti, but allowing/doing things that will result in "undesired actions" is not a good practice.

[ca1ore]

your return section is impractically small, and you are certainly lucky you have not lost the pump. Sucking air is very bad for the pump volute and impeller. (it is the same as cavitation.) Such a small area for the pump affects the cooling of the pump as well. Have something go haywire for a week or two while you are surfing in Tahiti, and I think the story will come out different.

Things always go wrong when you're on vacation .... It's Murphy's corollary for reef keepers. I'd have made my return section larger with hindsight, though not to a vacations worth. A backup ATO pump helps with peace of mind. Cannot see how a small return section would have any affect on pump cooling - unless flow was really low.