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View Full Version : The decline of species in are hobby who is to blame. A discussion, not a blaming gam


Mudbeaver
12/19/2014, 09:25 AM
Tired of being pointed and accused and blamed as the cause for the decline in species. A glimpse of what you should know , i'm not an activist or part of any group, Peta or any or these associations, its not a political statement, i just read and i can make up my own mind, but i hate hypocrisy of goverments and companies who target us as THE MAIN cause for species decline an impose on us restriction while the companies most responsable for the destruction of habitat and wild life seems to have no restrictions at all. Sorry for the sarcasm but i'm ****ed today, by these findings.



As i read my book i discover a few reality and truths about are hobby. These few lines are very indicative of it. [[[ Wheater on the coast of Kenya (Mombassa) where the reefs have been badly destroyed by the impact of massive tourism, or in the straits of Malaca where extensive ship traffic affects the reefs and rocky coastal area, especially between Sumatra and Singapore, or the reefs damaged by off-shore oil drilling in central Java sea.... ]]]]] The point being when we are told by goverments that the fishing or aquarist hobby as captured too many and are responsable for the decline of such and such species, i would like to remind eveybody that they're passing the bucket to us! That its the other human activities, plundering especially of companies , from big oils, to mining and the flock of tourist and stupid tourist with their plastis wrap left everywhere that pollutes and destroy the environment that are the major problem in this equation, not the sole aquarist hobbyist per say and to put us as the single cause is an unfair statement, and in their decisions, verdict and announcement it should underline it very specifically and up front as to promote and put responsability where it is most due. Their's more tourist, companies and oil than hobbyist in this world.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/aframe_dede_zak_6862_inertia11.jpg

Stained glass surfing.



http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/727518633b03dc4230207e3da0ae45d71.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/Vast-Fields-Of-Tires.jpg


Hey its the new leather coral ; Oldoranus, Tirenass,sp. They're indestructable you can't kill these and the reproduce , by millions each year.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/6294.jpeg

You must be so proud of your new multimillion dollars yak, i mean yacht.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/Biorock-01.jpg

Where my bike mom, where we ditched it the last time!


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/sea-urchin-with-rubbish-45M1910-16.jpg

The poor thing couldn't find anything in the ocean to camouflage himself so we tought we'd help him.



http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/trash_lge.jpg


Hope that quenched your thirst


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/scuba-divers-picking-up-45M1910-19.jpg


Ahhh a bigger thirst


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/1075323Xljgd7HmDz.jpeg


Familly party thirst.




http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/rubbish.jpg

Definitely us hobbyist who endager the reefs and the shores of the world look at us and what we do.

Mudbeaver
12/19/2014, 09:26 AM
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/5a3.jpg

You think these idiots care where they are.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/034787261_prevstill.jpeg


Apparently not they left their costume behind

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/testing-waters-press-conference.jpg

Pharmaceutical companies dumping chemicals 24/7.I though my fish look a bit neurotic these days. He swims backward and upside down ever seen that anywhere ? In any case to hide the evidence you need a good make up job.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/download.jpg

A whole city take a dump that must feel so good 24/7



http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/toxicdruminwater.jpg

An unkown hazardous chemical, i love a good mystery.



http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/beach-pollution.jpg
Don't you love a colorfull ocean. We're truely artist of the world. I'm sure everybody appreciates it even the animals below.



http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/T6545_ocean_pollution.jpg

Is it before or after the mess.




http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/4641977bcb8f340f35090a1f26932be5.jpg

Its just a tiny part of the ocean can't have any effect on the wild life. Except that it happens every day somewhere, so often in fact thats its no longer news.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/debris-breakdown_000.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/4fad8be241bae3900b9b9ca0af2cee24143b969e_bird_gut_plastic1.jpg

It wasn't disected that was how the remains where found.

Mudbeaver
12/19/2014, 09:28 AM
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/408035_297003057026571_1619186322_n.jpg
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http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/OceanConservancyTopTenDebrisGraphic-thumb-500x529-12493.jpg
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http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/ghost-marine-debris-stats-fldep.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/sediment.jpg


Approved by are goverments


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/o01_23334333.jpg

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http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/api-1169part-40-cfr-112-part-1-of-2oil-pollution-prevention-8-638.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/a-sewage-leak-from-a-copper-mine-polluted-a-river-and-reservoir-in-july-2010-poisoning-more-than-4-billion-pounds-of-fish.jpg

Mudbeaver
12/19/2014, 09:29 AM
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/Delicate-patterns-in-the--002.jpg

I wonder what kind of song would the BeachBoys write with that kind of wave.



http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/coral04.jpg

I'm not responsable for any of this are you when you buy your little fish. So why is the goverment single us out as the destroyer of reefs and blame us for the decline of species....sorry for the sarcasm but i'm ****ed off today.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/249.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/DSCN0256.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/GGP-1-waters.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/07deadfish.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/fishing-net-on-reef-24M2110-01.jpg


Have you catch your lunch today??

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/d167e63452e7e7249c627268a3330bf5.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/ocean-of-plastic1-620x357.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/marine-trash-24M1910-06D.jpg

Mudbeaver
12/19/2014, 09:30 AM
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/water_pollution7.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/Oil-Spill-Clean-Up-580x386.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/story_8519/unhealthy-porites-covered-in-s.jpg

This pile of gooooo result of chemical dumping.

So before you're to eager to accept responsability for the decline of species in the reefs just remember that these activities where happening for far longer before we had , us the general public access to aquariums. I'm not saying that we don't have are faults and that are methods are without reproche i'm just saying the goverment and companies are quick to give us the blame whitout condidering who had free hands before on and in the ocean.

mwminer
12/19/2014, 10:29 AM
It truly is sad. We have no excuses....all of us are to blame....but some of us try to make it better. Thank you for bringing this to the forefront. I knew it was bad but not THIS bad.

Timfish
12/19/2014, 04:22 PM
Forest Rohwer's book, Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas is a real eye opener and does a pretty good job of arguing it is the overfishing of the apex preditors on reefs coupled with excess nutrients from human activity are primary causes of degradation of reefs. Certainly some species need to be protected but interestingly coral imports into the USA have been dropping for 6 or 7 years now. Looking at how much is being grown by aquarists in central Texas I like to think we're becoming a little more self sustaining.

CaliCal
12/19/2014, 09:33 PM
ah, reminds me of the dead spots in the ocean..that is terrible.

r-balljunkie
12/21/2014, 01:49 AM
It truly is sad. We have no excuses....all of us are to blame.....

Yes,

we all swim in the same ocean, responsibility wise. The degree of blame varies.

Puffyluv
12/21/2014, 06:39 AM
Just because we aren't the majority of the problem doesn't mean we don't have any responsibility here.

I see threads still touted as "check out my awesome WILD" this or that...when we stop rewarding this as a hobby (ohhh, you have that rare fish that they only ever caught three of because it's so rare...oooo you are so special and rich...can I touch you, or at least drink your skimmer water?!?) and we have lessened our own impact on the reef so as to be negligible - I will climb right up on that high horse with you...until then - I'm hiding in my greenhouse, trying to make a difference one frag at a time! ;)

Mudbeaver
12/22/2014, 06:13 AM
Just because we aren't the majority of the problem doesn't mean we don't have any responsibility here.

I see threads still touted as "check out my awesome WILD" this or that...when we stop rewarding this as a hobby (ohhh, you have that rare fish that they only ever caught three of because it's so rare...oooo you are so special and rich...can I touch you, or at least drink your skimmer water?!?) and we have lessened our own impact on the reef so as to be negligible - I will climb right up on that high horse with you...until then - I'm hiding in my greenhouse, trying to make a difference one frag at a time! ;)

Yes your absolutely right, the thing is too that , it takes permits to put some of those thing out there. Some are out there without permits. So who give those permits in the first place?

Incompetent people... You just have to look at John Stewards wrap up of some congressman's remarks on science man . Its hillarious and sad at the same time. To think that we're led by idiots and incompetent like that.

I recently was contacted about a feather star and a basket star that are on the market. You know why? Because my system is by defenition the best chance they got.

I run a very hight nutrience tank. Because i have an NPS zone , gorgonians, clams and sponges, for which i dose hourly. Even then i'll have to make modifications and i have no clue at what the result will be, but the odds are againts me.

But they're on the market!!!! Because they got the right of import, export! Who gave those permits...? I didn't and the biologist would certainly wouldn't have if they'd been on a serious committee. But it was a committee made of paper pushers who don't know squat!!



-*+
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http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/Funnies/giphy%208.gif

Puffyluv
12/22/2014, 07:09 AM
Permits? :confused:

I am pretty sure that collection permits are not done by species, but by area? And are they even needed everywhere? I think most of the legality of any of it comes in when CITES gets involved, right? When it needs to be shipped out?

And the MOMENT any species is brought up for restriction, or banning it from the trade altogether...the hobbyists all go into an absolute uproar. Some in the name of conservation...though likely many of the biggest shouters don't grow any of these anyway. People just don't like the idea of being told "you can't." ;)

KafudaFish
12/22/2014, 07:37 AM
Mudbeaver:

What is your background and expertise regarding these species? Do you study them for a living?

Just curious.

Mudbeaver
12/22/2014, 08:40 AM
Permits? :confused:

I am pretty sure that collection permits are not done by species, but by area? And are they even needed everywhere? I think most of the legality of any of it comes in when CITES gets involved, right? When it needs to be shipped out?

And the MOMENT any species is brought up for restriction, or banning it from the trade altogether...the hobbyists all go into an absolute uproar. Some in the name of conservation...though likely many of the biggest shouters don't grow any of these anyway. People just don't like the idea of being told "you can't." ;)

2 of my friends are involved in the trade and know how many permits it takes to buy, transport, import, export, sell, etc of different species, regions, and different rules and laws depending on fishing laws and protection of eco system of every countries.

So when we talk those subject come up. But thats my beef with the permits and the Hobby itself. This is what i regret are hobby is doing. We have enough species we can enjoy with going after stuff that live at 6000 meters .


Mudbeaver:

What is your background and expertise regarding these species? Do you study them for a living?

Just curious.


Well my thank has a few rare species that are doing good, but now because of that, when ever their is a rare thing on the market, word gets around that i can accomodate them. But its not really true, i just accomodate and rig the system for it. I'm lucky so far.

As for these two, like i said i knew of them because they've been on the news lately and i've read a lot and i'm a quick study and they know that. But like i said, those 2 species have very specific needs.

And the odds are againts me. One eats fine particules that are cought with mucus in a comb like series of hair , the problem is it need a very specific kind of flow, particule density, and size, and no crinoids are alike, so you can see the problem there.

The basket has and even worst problem its a primary jellyfish predator. It does eat other things. But it catches its food at night with its hooks , and eats it during the day. unfortunatly , in the tank i have shrimps, and you know shrimps. They'll go and steal the food from the star before it can eat. If it happens i don't know.

I'll supplements with oysters and other foods, but its a gamble. And this is what peeve me off. I'm giving it a go because the guy already has it. Its caught already. and my tank is all geared up for heavy feeding. I have a huge refugium with a huge amount of macro algaes to take the excess Nitrates and phosphates out plus reactors and i dose heavely because of my NPS zones, and other filter feeders that i keep.

But thats my beef with the permits and the Hobby itself. This is what i regret are hobby is doing. We have enough species we can enjoy with going after stuff that live at 6000 meters .

OllieNZ
12/22/2014, 10:11 AM
It's not just the saltwater side either http://www.cichlidae.com/section.php?id=279

billsreef
12/22/2014, 05:39 PM
We have enough species we can enjoy with going after stuff that live at 6000 meters .

Nothing is being caught at 6000 meters depth for the hobby.

Mudbeaver
12/22/2014, 06:06 PM
Nothing is being caught at 6000 meters depth for the hobby.


Some of are inverts are found there, and some like the nautilus that we sadly see from time to time come to the surface , while they do not live at the surface they come to it and are caught for God know what reason we see them in the trade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus

Some feather stars as i was saying come from very deep and come back up also while living at 6000 m . For what who knows? And then we catch them .

That was my angle on it.

billsreef
12/22/2014, 07:40 PM
Some of are inverts are found there, and some like the nautilus that we sadly see from time to time come to the surface , while they do not live at the surface they come to it and are caught for God know what reason we see them in the trade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus

Some feather stars as i was saying come from very deep and come back up also while living at 6000 m . For what who knows? And then we catch them .

That was my angle on it.

As you mention, the Nautilis come up to the shallows. This is at night, and when they are caught. Not in the depths. The feather stars we see in the trade inhabit the shallow reefs, they do not come up from the depths and are not caught in the depths.

Mudbeaver
12/22/2014, 08:48 PM
As you mention, the Nautilis come up to the shallows. This is at night, and when they are caught. Not in the depths. The feather stars we see in the trade inhabit the shallow reefs, they do not come up from the depths and are not caught in the depths.

I didn't say caught at 6000 meters either in my quote i said we don't need species that lives at 6000m meaning we're not equiped to care for them. Sorry you seem to have a hard time to grasp my meaning here.

The point being we have other thing to put in are tanks that are surface dwellers, not from the depts like those things i was talking about. And that are somehow put in the trade for a death sentence basicaly.

Puffyluv
12/22/2014, 10:13 PM
I think a lot of us may be having a hard time grasping your meaning...I'm still trying to figure out who it would be that would regulate collection permits per species. ;) Since that would be flat out impossible and all. :)

Mudbeaver
12/23/2014, 04:53 AM
I think a lot of us may be having a hard time grasping your meaning...I'm still trying to figure out who it would be that would regulate collection permits per species. ;) Since that would be flat out impossible and all. :)

A guy out of BC Canada was fined $50 000 plus 3 years in jail for importing protected corals and importing without permits from the USA and exporting to the USA others without proper papers .

Now the US wants him to stand trial in the state of Washington for the same reason extradition is on the way, made the papers here.

The total value was $300 000 worth of stuff. Happened this year. There're regulation and permits on species and protected animals .

The banggai cardinalfish will soo be put on the endangered species and wont be wild caught which is about time we have such a success breeding it in captivity.

billsreef
12/23/2014, 06:08 AM
I didn't say caught at 6000 meters either in my quote i said we don't need species that lives at 6000m meaning we're not equiped to care for them. Sorry you seem to have a hard time to grasp my meaning here.

The point being we have other thing to put in are tanks that are surface dwellers, not from the depts like those things i was talking about. And that are somehow put in the trade for a death sentence basicaly.

You need to choose a better argument. The problem with keeping Nautilus is not that they live in the depths during the daylight hours, but that they need chilled systems. They actually do quite well in aquariums, if you set them up right, the biggest secret to success being a chiller to keep them at the appropriate temperatures. The depth argument is irrelevant.

The feather stars in the trade not being from the depths, also makes the depth argument irrelevant. Now if you want to talk about the difficulties in feeding them, then you have a good argument for not collecting them and selling to the aquarium trade ;) The trick is picking the reason for the argument, not presenting an irrelevant (and sometimes completely wrong) one ;)

From an emotional point of view, it is certainly bad to collect species for captivity that stand little to no chance of survival. From a fisheries management standpoint, whether the critters live or die in captivity is irrelevant, as once collected they are as good as dead to the ecosystem they were removed from. Comes down to practical fisheries management and sustainable yield. Something that is poorly studied and often poorly regulated in many places when it comes to the aquarium trade. Not so well done with with well studied food fish fisheries either.

Puffyluv
12/23/2014, 06:20 AM
There are no permits for collecting endangered or protected animals for the aquarium trade. I am pretty confident that's a fact. :)

Mudbeaver
12/23/2014, 10:05 AM
You need to choose a better argument. The problem with keeping Nautilus is not that they live in the depths during the daylight hours, but that they need chilled systems. They actually do quite well in aquariums, if you set them up right, the biggest secret to success being a chiller to keep them at the appropriate temperatures. The depth argument is irrelevant.

The feather stars in the trade not being from the depths, also makes the depth argument irrelevant. Now if you want to talk about the difficulties in feeding them, then you have a good argument for not collecting them and selling to the aquarium trade ;) The trick is picking the reason for the argument, not presenting an irrelevant (and sometimes completely wrong) one ;)

From an emotional point of view, it is certainly bad to collect species for captivity that stand little to no chance of survival. From a fisheries management standpoint, whether the critters live or die in captivity is irrelevant, as once collected they are as good as dead to the ecosystem they were removed from. Comes down to practical fisheries management and sustainable yield. Something that is poorly studied and often poorly regulated in many places when it comes to the aquarium trade. Not so well done with with well studied food fish fisheries either.

It wasn't about the dept either..... boy when you stick to every single words of a phrase of someone's thread or post man, it was a broad statement in a context of shallow versus depts species.......Geeezzzzz

And you seem to be looking to create an argument.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/Funnies/giphy%202.gif


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/Basilesim/Funnies/giphy%2043.gif

Puffyluv
12/23/2014, 10:29 PM
LOL. :D

Sooo...yes, true story, there are a lot of different pressures on the reefs these days. I sometimes get a little offended on how much is blamed on aquarists, too...but in the end...do we need to put added pressure on an already delicate system that we profess to love?

Or maybe we could change the way of thinking in the hobby to where it wasn't cool to have a $6,000 fish unless it had been bred in captivity? They proved it was possible if the hobby had enough demand for it with the G. Personatus project this year...and to my delight, the babies were actually pronounced worth MORE than their wild-caught counterparts. Who knew a summer spent egging on a friend on the phone could amount to so much. Go Larry! :)

Anyway, just thought since I was the first to get us off track with my challenge of fictional species specific permits...I should try and get us back on, lol.

CuzzA
12/24/2014, 05:28 AM
It wasn't about the dept either..... boy when you stick to every single words of a phrase of someone's thread or post man, it was a broad statement in a context of shallow versus depts species.......Geeezzzzz

And you seem to be looking to create an argument.

Mudbeaver, I don't think Bill is trying to start an argument. There's nothing wrong with correcting someone. If you're not willing to listen how would you ever learn.

As far as whose to blame, I couldn't agree more. I've made this argument many times that it's in fact the same governments who point to us as the cause of reef decline when in reality they are much more to blame for allowing agriculture, ports and shipping lanes right smack next to or on top of reefs.

We definitely have to be responsible and maintain a sense of self control when we choose our inhabitants. Buying a mundane animal at the LFS because you know that it likely won't survive there is a bad choice too. It's better to let that animal die at the LFS and let them be out of pocket on the cost. Thus, they won't be so stupid to buy that animal again from the wholesaler. The idea that someone is saving that animal is counterproductive because the LFS figures he just sold one, so he'll buy another to sell and make a profit.

Some of the images you shared are, as always, disturbing. Some of the statistics, however, are not true. For example, newspaper and cigarette butts break down very very fast in the ocean. Sometime as quickly as several days to a few weeks. Aluminum cans break down very fast as well and glass bottles are usually broken down to small pieces very quickly as they smash against rocks, etc. Glass is sand after all. Of course, I'm not arguing that it's ok. Garbage is garbage and should be disposed of properly.

Obviously plastic is terrible. There's no doubt it takes an extremely long time for it to break down.

Some of the images you posted are actually beneficial as it appears they're creating artificial reefs. For example, dropping concrete and the bicycle rack. Artificial reefs have had a positive impact around the world and in my area of Tampa Bay. I wish our government would create more of them.

As far as oil drilling goes, we're actually really good at it. Of course the problem is when it goes bad, it's catastrophic. However, we can look at the BP oil spill and note that the lack of safeguards and uninspected faulty equipment were to blame. Which again the responsibility falls on the government. That's no excuse though and there's no doubt in my mind that the oil rigs need to be over inspected as one mishap can be absolutely terrible. As we've seen first hand. That been said, the Earth itself releases far more oil in to the ocean than we could only imagine pulling out by drilling.

Nevertheless, I applaud your efforts to make important points and be vocal about the issues facing our beloved reefs and oceans. And I'll play the blame game... Governments are the real threat to reefs and oceans. They've just been really good at selling the public on bogus information like hobbyist are raping reefs, global warming and ocean acidification are killing the reefs. We know the latter two are bs, as corals and fish adapt very well to warmer/fluctuating temperatures and depressed ph from the high levels of CO2 in our systems. And ultimately I don't believe the global warming bs anyways as the government has showed their cards in that they simply want to create a tax and distribute that money to less fortunate nations. At least truthful science is beating these bogus statements back and the truth is being made public.

Mudbeaver
12/24/2014, 06:00 AM
Mudbeaver, I don't think Bill is trying to start an argument. There's nothing wrong with correcting someone. If you're not willing to listen how would you ever learn.

As far as whose to blame, I couldn't agree more. I've made this argument many times that it's in fact the same governments who point to us as the cause of reef decline when in reality they are much more to blame for allowing agriculture, ports and shipping lanes right smack next to or on top of reefs.

We definitely have to be responsible and maintain a sense of self control when we choose our inhabitants. Buying a mundane animal at the LFS because you know that it likely won't survive there is a bad choice too. It's better to let that animal die at the LFS and let them be out of pocket on the cost. Thus, they won't be so stupid to buy that animal again from the wholesaler. The idea that someone is saving that animal is counterproductive because the LFS figures he just sold one, so he'll buy another to sell and make a profit.

Some of the images you shared are, as always, disturbing. Some of the statistics, however, are not true. For example, newspaper and cigarette butts break down very very fast in the ocean. Sometime as quickly as several days to a few weeks. Aluminum cans break down very fast as well and glass bottles are usually broken down to small pieces very quickly as they smash against rocks, etc. Glass is sand after all. Of course, I'm not arguing that it's ok. Garbage is garbage and should be disposed of properly.

Obviously plastic is terrible. There's no doubt it takes an extremely long time for it to break down.

Some of the images you posted are actually beneficial as it appears they're creating artificial reefs. For example, dropping concrete and the bicycle rack. Artificial reefs have had a positive impact around the world and in my area of Tampa Bay. I wish our government would create more of them.

As far as oil drilling goes, we're actually really good at it. Of course the problem is when it goes bad, it's catastrophic. However, we can look at the BP oil spill and note that the lack of safeguards and uninspected faulty equipment were to blame. Which again the responsibility falls on the government. That's no excuse though and there's no doubt in my mind that the oil rigs need to be over inspected as one mishap can be absolutely terrible. As we've seen first hand. That been said, the Earth itself releases far more oil in to the ocean than we could only imagine pulling out by drilling.

Nevertheless, I applaud your efforts to make important points and be vocal about the issues facing our beloved reefs and oceans. And I'll play the blame game... Governments are the real threat to reefs and oceans. They've just been really good at selling the public on bogus information like hobbyist are raping reefs, global warming and ocean acidification are killing the reefs. We know the latter two are bs, as corals and fish adapt very well to warmer/fluctuating temperatures and depressed ph from the high levels of CO2 in our systems.

Thanks for your post very good points. And when most of the species we love are gone we, the Aquarist may be the only source of DNA or eggs for repopulation of these species.

We are like the world wide bank of specimen a bit like the Svalbard Global Seed Vault's in Norway where they stored all the seeds of the world in a mountain , in case of a global event and we can reseeds are forest and fields.



As for correcting me i was making a point between getting species that are difficult to care for because some are use to live in totaly different environement, and putting these things on the market was a mistake. But i was nitpicked on for word play; this is exactly the sort of things i'm denouncing in are hobby nitpicking and infighting among ourselves over wordings and trivials while the big corporations get their act together and we can't even agree on the color of an orange.

In any case more restrictions on us is comming but non is going the other way, none on oil companies or offshore drilling, no extra taxes on environment or extra projects from goverments for reefs and studies its all about the oil and reefs are still shrinking faster than growing. Thats a fact. The latest is a canal being built right through through the Great Barrier reef in Autralia for ships.

billsreef
12/24/2014, 07:25 AM
The reason for my nit picking has completely escaped you. It is simply that if you want people to listen to you, you need to use factual examples to support your argument. When you come up with examples that fictional, people will tend to ignore the rest of what your saying. Basically your example of collecting at 6000 feet is equivalent to pointing at a potato while talking about the orange ;) I'm just trying to get you to use factual and realistic examples that will get people to listen.

Mudbeaver
12/24/2014, 07:52 AM
Removed.

avandss
12/24/2014, 07:56 AM
the pictures you posted are very depressing. humanity is a virus!

GreshamH
12/24/2014, 11:39 AM
There are no permits for collecting endangered or protected animals for the aquarium trade. I am pretty confident that's a fact. :)

That is exactly what CITES is for, and what all stony corals are listed as... protected species... Appendix II - protected

http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/what.php

Article II
Fundamental Principles

1. Appendix I shall include all species threatened with extinction which are or may be affected by trade. Trade in specimens of these species must be subject to particularly strict regulation in order not to endanger further their survival and must only be authorized in exceptional circumstances.
2. Appendix II shall include:

(a) all species which although not necessarily now threatened with extinction may become so unless trade in specimens of such species is subject to strict regulation in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival; and

(b) other species which must be subject to regulation in order that trade in specimens of certain species referred to in sub-paragraph (a) of this paragraph may be brought under effective control.
3. Appendix III shall include all species which any Party identifies as being subject to regulation within its jurisdiction for the purpose of preventing or restricting exploitation, and as needing the co-operation of other Parties in the control of trade.

4. The Parties shall not allow trade in specimens of species included in Appendices I, II and III except in accordance with the provisions of the present Convention.
http://cites.org/eng/disc/text.php#II

And yes, CITES permits are per species.

http://checklist.cites.org/#/en/search/cites_appendices%5B%5D=II&output_layout=alphabetical&level_of_listing=0&show_synonyms=1&show_author=0&show_english=1&show_spanish=1&show_french=1&scientific_name=Cnidaria&page=1&per_page=20

johnike
12/24/2014, 01:56 PM
The reason for my nit picking has completely escaped you. It is simply that if you want people to listen to you, you need to use factual examples to support your argument. When you come up with examples that fictional, people will tend to ignore the rest of what your saying. Basically your example of collecting at 6000 feet is equivalent to pointing at a potato while talking about the orange ;) I'm just trying to get you to use factual and realistic examples that will get people to listen.

What the heck would you know? You some kind of marine biologist or something?

Rybren
12/25/2014, 06:34 AM
http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3fzq8yFWz1qa9armo1_r1_500.jpg

r-balljunkie
12/27/2014, 04:31 AM
We are like the world wide bank of specimen a bit like the Svalbard Global Seed Vault's



That's a bit of a reach, classifying hobbyist as such. Hobbyists making online purchases based on pretty colors half the time and are far removed from being scientists.

The reason for my nit picking has completely escaped you.

Is there a way to add a like button to RC?

What the heck would you know? You some kind of marine biologist or something?


Thanks for adding levity to the situation.......I think.

johnike
12/27/2014, 05:38 AM
:celeb1:

:wavehand:

Puffyluv
12/27/2014, 05:58 AM
"Cites does not issue permits to collect the animals they protect for the aquarium trade. There is no organization that issues collection permits by the species for sale in the hobby."

There...that's what I meant. :)

mighties_keeper
01/20/2015, 01:56 AM
Not an argument but a question. When importers are caught for importing illegal marine life, who positively Id's the species? When collecting permit is issued does it classify legal marine life Id's?
Just to clarify I grouped importers as anyone involved in collecting, holding and transporting.
Also used marine life to included anything living collected in our hobby.

GreshamH
01/20/2015, 11:32 AM
"Cites does not issue permits to collect the animals they protect for the aquarium trade. There is no organization that issues collection permits by the species for sale in the hobby."

There...that's what I meant. :)

Sure there is. Each country that ships CITES to the US, has an origination that issues the permit authorizes the shipment. Without it, you can not ship CITES animals into a CITES member nation. Without it, you cannot ship any livestock into the US. Pretty much every country has some sort of Bureau/Dept of Fisheries.

have you ever imported or exported marine livestock? It really doesn't sound like it... FWIW I have, and even worked with a village to help with their export docs to the states. All our permits had quotes per species, issued at both the federal and local level.

GreshamH
01/20/2015, 11:34 AM
Not an argument but a question. When importers are caught for importing illegal marine life, who positively Id's the species? When collecting permit is issued does it classify legal marine life Id's?
Just to clarify I grouped importers as anyone involved in collecting, holding and transporting.
Also used marine life to included anything living collected in our hobby.

you made to large of a lump. Exporters ship the livestock into the country, importers take possession. The ID the animals are sent under, is done via the exporter... but here in the US, you as the importer are responsible, so if the exporter double packs/sticks in something else/miss ID's, you're stuck holding the bag so to speak.

mighties_keeper
01/20/2015, 10:34 PM
If something is shipped illegally, is there an agency checking id's at port of call? A watch dog for the government.

Puffyluv
01/21/2015, 06:22 AM
Sure there is. Each country that ships CITES to the US, has an origination that issues the permit authorizes the shipment. Without it, you can not ship CITES animals into a CITES member nation. Without it, you cannot ship any livestock into the US. Pretty much every country has some sort of Bureau/Dept of Fisheries.

have you ever imported or exported marine livestock? It really doesn't sound like it... FWIW I have, and even worked with a village to help with their export docs to the states. All our permits had quotes per species, issued at both the federal and local level.
By the species? Meaning there are literally thousands of separate permits?
No, I am actually quite against wild collection in most cases, lol. ;-)

billsreef
01/21/2015, 07:18 AM
If something is shipped illegally, is there an agency checking id's at port of call? A watch dog for the government.

In the US we have both Customs, Fish and Wildlife, and agricultural inspectors.

By the species? Meaning there are literally thousands of separate permits?

One permit per shipment that lists the individual species and quantities of each.

GreshamH
01/21/2015, 11:58 AM
In the US we have both Customs, Fish and Wildlife, and agricultural inspectors.


And NOAA-NMFS

billsreef
01/21/2015, 05:24 PM
And NOAA-NMFS

Figures I'd forget them :lol:

mighties_keeper
01/22/2015, 12:29 AM
That is interesting that four agencies and things still get into the country.

GreshamH
01/22/2015, 10:13 AM
That is interesting that four agencies and things still get into the country.

4 agencies overseeing a MOUNTAIN of imports. They don't just deal with tropical fish after all.

mighties_keeper
01/22/2015, 04:39 PM
4 agencies overseeing a MOUNTAIN of imports. They don't just deal with tropical fish after all.

That is true but I wasn't talking about just tropical fish.

GreshamH
01/22/2015, 04:46 PM
That is true but I wasn't talking about just tropical fish.

That is odd as we all have been talking about livestock imports :lol: Since you are changing the subject, there are more then just those 4 that deal with imports. EPA, FDA, USDA, ICE, etc, etc. Even with those in place, the extreme volume of imports are FAR beyond that of them being able to fully control. IIRC they can't even inspect 1/30 of what comes in. Nearly all fish and coral shipments get some sort of inspection.

Puffyluv
01/24/2015, 05:51 AM
I feel pretty good finally getting an agreement that no one is writing permits per species... Took awhile to get that across, so I just wanted to say THANK YOU!!! :)

GreshamH
01/26/2015, 03:55 PM
I feel pretty good finally getting an agreement that no one is writing permits per species... Took awhile to get that across, so I just wanted to say THANK YOU!!! :)

They are... they just are not writing an single permit for each coral.... but, each coral collected IS listed by species and has an allotment for that SINGLE coral.

Puffyluv
01/27/2015, 06:08 AM
Exactly! :)

Ohioreefer7
01/27/2015, 06:23 AM
I believe all the hysteria about the lionfish in the Caribbean is an explanation for the little people as to why the fish stocks are declining and the reefs are dying. Corporations use the lionfish as a cover so that they can pollute and overfish the oceans and the public thinks it is because of the lionfish. I once even read that a person in charge of lionfish derbies said lionfish were worse than an oil spill.

CuzzA
01/27/2015, 07:39 AM
I believe all the hysteria about the lionfish in the Caribbean is an explanation for the little people as to why the fish stocks are declining and the reefs are dying. Corporations use the lionfish as a cover so that they can pollute and overfish the oceans and the public thinks it is because of the lionfish. I once even read that a person in charge of lionfish derbies said lionfish were worse than an oil spill.

:uhoh3: Um no. This isn't coming from "corporations", it's coming from Floridians. They are a huge problem.

<IFRAME height=315 src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JnAbtkMdCoI" frameBorder=0 width=560 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

billsreef
01/27/2015, 10:36 AM
The lionfish problem is far more widespread than any oil spill. Note; that is not the same as claiming oil spills are not a problem.

Ohioreefer7
01/27/2015, 12:45 PM
The lionfish problem is far more widespread than any oil spill. Note; that is not the same as claiming oil spills are not a problem.

Up where I live there are zebra mussels and round gobies and everyone said the lake ecosystem would be destroyed. But that never happened, instead what has happened is farmers have fertilized the crops and it runs off into the fields and into the lakes and then there are algae blooms which produce toxic algae. The toxic algae was produced from man not from the zebra mussel or the round goby. They like to say it is because of invasive species but the truth is that it is man that pollutes the lakes and destroys nature. The same is true of lionfish, man has overfished the ocean leaving a lot of small fish to multiply and since the lionfish can not be fished commerically it survives and increases in population size because there are so many small fish due to lack of native predators.

I really wish there could be a way for divers to go to a remote place in the Caribbean like I did in Belize and see for themselves that if nature is left alone it does just fine. The lionfish problem is tiny compared to the destruction that humans do.

GreshamH
01/27/2015, 01:19 PM
:lol: Zebra mussels are indeed still an issue, even in not related to another issue, the phytoplankton blooms.

Ditto with lionfish. They are a problem due to lack of larger fish... they are an issue due to the larger fish not eating them in that area. They are learning, people have seen groupers and sharks getting lionfish. They are indeed a real issue for western tropical Atlantic. Yeah, there are other issues, but if you've been following the lionfish story closely, you'll see they are greatly expanding in both numbers and range. Just wait till they get to Belize, it'll happen, then your tune will change ;)

gone fishin
01/27/2015, 01:22 PM
Ohioreefer I think you are trying to connect apples and oranges. It is just not working.

Ohioreefer7
01/27/2015, 01:39 PM
When I went to Belize there were tons of lionfish but also tons of other fish. When I went to Cancun there were no lionfish because they remove them from the reef there, yet the reefs were pretty sickly and there were little fish. The conclusion I drew was that there was a lot of pollution from the hotels and city nearby and that the pollution from man was far worse for the reef and fish than the lionfish.

KafudaFish
01/27/2015, 01:45 PM
Up where I live there are zebra mussels and round gobies and everyone said the lake ecosystem would be destroyed. But that never happened, instead what has happened is farmers have fertilized the crops and it runs off into the fields and into the lakes and then there are algae blooms which produce toxic algae. The toxic algae was produced from man not from the zebra mussel or the round goby. They like to say it is because of invasive species but the truth is that it is man that pollutes the lakes and destroys nature. The same is true of lionfish, man has overfished the ocean leaving a lot of small fish to multiply and since the lionfish can not be fished commerically it survives and increases in population size because there are so many small fish due to lack of native predators.

I really wish there could be a way for divers to go to a remote place in the Caribbean like I did in Belize and see for themselves that if nature is left alone it does just fine. The lionfish problem is tiny compared to the destruction that humans do.

Yes nonpoint source pollution has had a major impact to any body of water for the last several hundred years. I doubt anyone will argue that.

The problem is these two species are not finished and are expanding their ranges. For example the number of Zebra mussels collected in the Susquehanna River in PA went from 0 in 2008 to just under 13,000 last year.

The same trend is occurring in Maryland.

Not only do they out compete native mussel species but they can affect spawning behavior of fish species.

Gobies are doing the same and out competes natives for food and habitat.

Because of pollution water quality has degraded which has impacted the sport fisheries and because the gobies can survive these conditions continue winning.

Rarely is it a single event that pushes the issue but sometimes it is that next event that pushes it past the point of no return.

Ohioreefer7
01/27/2015, 02:12 PM
What I think is strange is the logic that is used. The papers say the zebra mussels and gobies bioaccumulate toxins and that is a reason why they are bad. The gobies eat the toxic zebra mussels and then birds eat the gobies and die so that is why the gobies and zebra mussels are bad. Well nobody asks where the toxins come from. Well they come from toxic algae blooms and why are the algae blooms toxic? Because farmers put pesticides and fertilizers on their crops which are washed into the lake. The algae take up these toxins and the zebra mussels eat the algae and the gobies eat the zebra mussels and then birds eat the gobies and die. The ultimate fault is man but everyone blames the zebra mussels and gobies.

Squidmotron
01/28/2015, 09:28 PM
This problem would be easily solved if the lion fish would only live up to their name and hunt the zebra mussels.