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dieselfish89
12/26/2014, 12:30 AM
OK new to this apex controller and have the basic down. But trying to get my float switches set so my pump turns off if the switch closes but if it opens I want a delay in the pump turning on. Is there a certain code to put in adv control field. Thanks

slief
12/26/2014, 10:54 AM
You would add a defer code to your pump outlet.

I use a virtual outlet for my Switch called Addwater.

This is my top off programming. The defer code tells my system that the AddWater outlet needs to be on for 3 minutes before the pump turns on. This insures that the ATO pump isn't turning on due to water movement in the sump. I have a large sump and use a slow dosing pump for topoff. The min time at the end of the code insures that my ATO pump runs for a minimum of 15 minutes so that I fill a little bit past the point of the switch closing. This helps to keep my ATO from turning on and off in close succession. I also use several other float switches for fail safes. All of which are managed through virtual outlets. This makes it easy to determine what the issue is should I get an email or text alarm.


ATO Pump Code:

Fallback OFF
If Outlet AddWater = ON Then ON
Defer 003:00 Then ON
If Outlet AddWater = OFF Then OFF
If Outlet Return = OFF Then OFF
If Outlet SumpFull = ON Then OFF
If Outlet WaterBug = ON Then OFF
If Outlet SalinityLow = ON Then OFF
If Outlet SumpTooFull = ON Then OFF
Min Time 015:00 Then ON

Float Switch Virtual outlet (Add Water).

If Sw1 CLOSED Then OFF
If Sw1 OPEN Then ON
Min Time 003:00 Then OFF

morty
12/26/2014, 12:23 PM
OK new to this apex controller and have the basic down. But trying to get my float switches set so my pump turns off if the switch closes but if it opens I want a delay in the pump turning on. Is there a certain code to put in adv control field. Thanks

Assuming the float switch is called "Float1", and you want a five minute delay before the pump comes on again, something like the following would work:

Set ON
Fallback ON
If Float1 CLOSED Then OFF
Defer 005:00 Then ON

dieselfish89
12/26/2014, 03:14 PM
Thanks for the help ya I was putting the defer line all in the same as my switch line that explain why it would not work.

Tdog208
12/30/2014, 03:43 PM
Assuming the float switch is called "Float1", and you want a five minute delay before the pump comes on again, something like the following would work:

Set ON
Fallback ON
If Float1 CLOSED Then OFF
Defer 005:00 Then ON

So if I understand this correctly the pump is set to ON (Set ON)
Comms with the unit is lost it will be ON (Fallback ON)
if "Float 1" closes ... water level gets to low, pump will turn off, (If Float1 CLOSED Then OFF)
And after 5 min pump will turn back on (Defer 005:00 Then ON)
So if I want to make it so the pump does not turn back on until I tell it to then just get rid of the last "Defer" statement right? Then I can also set an alarm to send me a txt when this event happens?

morty
12/30/2014, 04:13 PM
So if I understand this correctly the pump is set to ON (Set ON)
Comms with the unit is lost it will be ON (Fallback ON)
if "Float 1" closes ... water level gets to low, pump will turn off, (If Float1 CLOSED Then OFF)
And after 5 min pump will turn back on (Defer 005:00 Then ON)
So if I want to make it so the pump does not turn back on until I tell it to then just get rid of the last "Defer" statement right? Then I can also set an alarm to send me a txt when this event happens?

"If Float1 CLOSED Then OFF" becomes (and stays) untrue then the pump will turn on after 5 minutes. If the float switch somehow closes again during this 5-minute countdown, it resets the countdown and the the countdown will restart as soon as the statement is once again not true.

But as long as the switch remains closed, the pump will stay off.

morty
12/30/2014, 04:14 PM
So if I understand this correctly the pump is set to ON (Set ON)
Comms with the unit is lost it will be ON (Fallback ON)
if "Float 1" closes ... water level gets to low, pump will turn off, (If Float1 CLOSED Then OFF)
And after 5 min pump will turn back on (Defer 005:00 Then ON)
So if I want to make it so the pump does not turn back on until I tell it to then just get rid of the last "Defer" statement right? Then I can also set an alarm to send me a txt when this event happens?

The switch statement will shut the pump off if the switch closes. If/when the statement "If Float1 CLOSED Then OFF" becomes (and stays) untrue then the pump will turn on after 5 minutes. If the float switch somehow closes again during this 5-minute countdown, it resets the countdown and the the countdown will restart as soon as the statement is once again not true.

But as long as the switch remains closed, the pump will stay off.

Tdog208
12/30/2014, 04:42 PM
So I want a switch, or more a "statement", that when the switch Closes that means water level is low and turn the return pump off until i tell it to turn back on again. Still working on the ATO set up. Telling it to turn off is not a problem its when the overflow drains, which raises the water level in the sump which will "OPEN" the switch again.

morty
12/30/2014, 05:06 PM
So I want a switch, or more a "statement", that when the switch Closes that means water level is low and turn the return pump off until i tell it to turn back on again. Still working on the ATO set up. Telling it to turn off is not a problem its when the overflow drains, which raises the water level in the sump which will "OPEN" the switch again.

You will then need to use virtual outlets to create a "latch" situation. Although there is more than one way to accomplish this, I would do it something like as follows: Create two virtual outlets, call them "PumpDisable" and "ResetDisable".

For "PumpDisable", use the following lines:

If Float1 CLOSED Then ON
If Outlet ResetDisable = ON Then OFF

(Note that there is no "Set" command for this outlet. On an Apex power up or reset, the default state of outlets is "off" unless a "Set" or other command says otherwise.)

For "ResetDisable":

Set OFF

(Not absolutely necessary to have this command here, but I always use it for outlets used solely to toggle others.)

And for your return pump outlet, you would re-write it to:

Set ON
Fallback ON
If Outlet PumpDisable = ON Then OFF
Defer 005:00 Then ON

So, when Float1 closes, it "permanently" toggles "PumpDisable" ON until you manually toggle "ResetDisable" from "Auto" (or OFF) to ON and back again. And after you do this, the pump will not come on again for 5 minutes, if you still want to have the delay. Otherwise, remove the defer statement.

Tdog208
01/01/2015, 05:00 PM
Thanks Morty! Taking me back to grade school DOS days!

Tdog208
01/02/2015, 04:29 PM
So what would this look like? 3 Floats total, 2 in the sump, lets call them Sumplo and Sumphi. 3rd on will be in the ATO "bucket", lets call it ATO_Lo. Lets also say that all switches are normally OPEN meaning that when they close is when I want the "event" to happen.

When Sumplo CLOSED I want ATO pump ON, until Sumphi Closed then ATO pump OFF, or 5 min max.
If ATO_Lo CLOSED then I want the Return_pump OFF and ATO pump to stay OFF (there is not enough water to return to DT or to pump into the sump.

slief
01/02/2015, 05:56 PM
So what would this look like? 3 Floats total, 2 in the sump, lets call them Sumplo and Sumphi. 3rd on will be in the ATO "bucket", lets call it ATO_Lo. Lets also say that all switches are normally OPEN meaning that when they close is when I want the "event" to happen.

When Sumplo CLOSED I want ATO pump ON, until Sumphi Closed then ATO pump OFF, or 5 min max.
If ATO_Lo CLOSED then I want the Return_pump OFF and ATO pump to stay OFF (there is not enough water to return to DT or to pump into the sump.

First, most float switches can be reversed by removing the clip below the float and flipping the float. That will change the float from normally open to normally closed which I think you are aware of.

That said, 1 float will control ATO and I would suggest that the action or pump turns on when the float is closed like you were suggesting. That way if the switch gets blocked by a snail or gets unplugged, your ATO pump won't turn on and flood you system.

Ato Pump programming:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If SumpLo OPEN Then OFF
If SumpLo CLOSED Then ON
If ATOlo Open then OFF (This could also be IF ATOLo Closed then OFF depending on your logic)


As for turning off the return pump when the ATO reservior is low, I am not sure I agree with that logic. If the ATO reservoir is low, I'd trigger an alarm but not shut the return pump off.

morty
01/02/2015, 08:43 PM
So what would this look like? 3 Floats total, 2 in the sump, lets call them Sumplo and Sumphi. 3rd on will be in the ATO "bucket", lets call it ATO_Lo. Lets also say that all switches are normally OPEN meaning that when they close is when I want the "event" to happen.

When Sumplo CLOSED I want ATO pump ON, until Sumphi Closed then ATO pump OFF, or 5 min max.
If ATO_Lo CLOSED then I want the Return_pump OFF and ATO pump to stay OFF (there is not enough water to return to DT or to pump into the sump.

This would require another virtual outlet. You saw how to create the "latch" outlet before. You would need to create another latch outlet for the 5-minute scenario, call it "Topoff_Timer". Its program (assuming your topoff pump outlet is called "Topoff") would be:

If Outlet Topoff = ON Then ON
Defer 005:00 Then ON
If Outlet ResetDisable = ON Then OFF

And the outlet "Topoff" would look like:

If Sumplo CLOSED Then ON
If Sumphi CLOSED Then OFF
If Outlet PumpDisable = ON Then OFF

You would rewrite "PumpDisable" to:

If ATO_lo CLOSED Then ON
If Outlet Topoff_Timer = ON Then ON
If Outlet ResetDisable = ON Then OFF

And Return_pump would read:

Set ON
Fallback ON
If Outlet PumpDisable = ON Then OFF

morty
01/02/2015, 08:49 PM
All that said, it's not necessarily the arrangement I would recommend for creating a "topoff with fail safe", but that wasn't your question. :) But it is programming that would accomplish what you asked.

Tdog208
01/03/2015, 09:19 PM
Thanks guys... I guess I didn't word it correctly. If Sumplo Closed then the return pump is about to suck air (the reason to pump water from the ATO) and if ATO_Lo is Closed then there is not enough water to pump into the sump, so both pumps are in danger of sucking air, so I want both pumps to turn/stay off. I will of course get a txt regarding the problem. Even IF the ATO pump gets stuck on there is not enough water in there to cause a flood. Plus I have the ALD programmed to take care of a leak, AND my LFS also gets the alerts so if I'm out of town he can come over and address the issue. Too bad I can't control my Vertex LED's with the Neptune also.
Morty, I tried the programming that you suggested and the return pump would just stay OFF. So my outlet for the return pump looks like this...

Set On
Fallback ON
If Sumplo Closed Then OFF

That works for now until I get the ATO setup ready to go.

Thanks again for all the help guys.

morty
01/04/2015, 09:57 AM
Thanks guys... I guess I didn't word it correctly. If Sumplo Closed then the return pump is about to suck air (the reason to pump water from the ATO) and if ATO_Lo is Closed then there is not enough water to pump into the sump, so both pumps are in danger of sucking air, so I want both pumps to turn/stay off. I will of course get a txt regarding the problem. Even IF the ATO pump gets stuck on there is not enough water in there to cause a flood. Plus I have the ALD programmed to take care of a leak, AND my LFS also gets the alerts so if I'm out of town he can come over and address the issue. Too bad I can't control my Vertex LED's with the Neptune also.
Morty, I tried the programming that you suggested and the return pump would just stay OFF. So my outlet for the return pump looks like this...

Set On
Fallback ON
If Sumplo Closed Then OFF

That works for now until I get the ATO setup ready to go.

Thanks again for all the help guys.

It sounded like that was what you wanted to have happen with the low-level float switch, so that's how I wrote the code...

My only reservation about how you have it written is I can see the pump relatively quickly cycling on and off in a low-sump scenario. Return pump shuts off, water drains from display, switch opens, pump moves water back into display, switch closes, pump shuts off, etc.

Granted, a pump should be able to handle this sort of cycling for a stretch of time, but adding a defer of a few minutes may cut down on how many power cycles the pump (and EB-8 outlet) have to experience if this happens while you are away from home.

Tdog208
01/05/2015, 06:18 PM
I actually had that very problem last night so I added
If FeedD Then ON
So now all I have to do to turn it back on is to start Feed cycle D
And after all that my new lift pump has arrived and the ATO is going in so now I get to start over :headwally:
But I think that with all the help you have given this will go MUCH faster with less hair loss

BIG thanks again!!!!

morty
01/05/2015, 06:53 PM
Hmm, that's not actually a valid "If Feed" statement, there should be some digits in there to define how much time past the feed expiration to retain the state...

One other bit of advice, if you haven't DLed it already, would be to get the Apex Comprehensive Reference Manual PDF from the Neptune website. Very well written and helpful.

For sump level detection and topoff control, I like to use 3 float switches in the sump at different heights, with the middle one used for turning the topoff on and off, this way the sump stays at a very uniform level. The upper and lower switches are only used to indicate if something is wrong.

IUfan
01/05/2015, 08:31 PM
Sorry to hijack, what float switch are you all using?

I use the Avast pressure float switch for ATO, but wanting to add a float switch for my filter sock section which is little less important, so would like to find one cheaper.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/05/f310e337728964a741ff24109fe1b383.jpg

Saw these on eBay, will these work?

Tdog208
01/05/2015, 08:45 PM
Hmm, that's not actually a valid "If Feed" statement, there should be some digits in there to define how much time past the feed expiration to retain the state...

One other bit of advice, if you haven't DLed it already, would be to get the Apex Comprehensive Reference Manual PDF from the Neptune website. Very well written and helpful.

For sump level detection and topoff control, I like to use 3 float switches in the sump at different heights, with the middle one used for turning the topoff on and off, this way the sump stays at a very uniform level. The upper and lower switches are only used to indicate if something is wrong.

Thought that, but the way it works is that after the float turns off the pump it will keep it off until I turn FeedD on, then stay in that state until the float turns it off again. The digits are 000 as there is no delay needed on top of what the timer is already set for. I got the idea from page 110 of the manual.

Tdog208
01/05/2015, 08:53 PM
Sorry to hijack, what float switch are you all using?

I use the Avast pressure float switch for ATO, but wanting to add a float switch for my filter sock section which is little less important, so would like to find one cheaper.

Saw these on eBay, will these work?

I'm using the ReefKeeper Float Switch Kit in the sump, just because it came with the brackets already. And the Deluxe Madison Horizontal Mount Float Switch for the ATO bucket. All from BRS. I don't see why the ones you are looking at won't work though.

IUfan
01/05/2015, 09:57 PM
Thanks!

Tdog208
01/05/2015, 10:10 PM
First, most float switches can be reversed by removing the clip below the float and flipping the float. That will change the float from normally open to normally closed which I think you are aware of.

That said, 1 float will control ATO and I would suggest that the action or pump turns on when the float is closed like you were suggesting. That way if the switch gets blocked by a snail or gets unplugged, your ATO pump won't turn on and flood you system.

Ato Pump programming:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If SumpLo OPEN Then OFF
If SumpLo CLOSED Then ON
If ATOlo Open then OFF (This could also be IF ATOLo Closed then OFF depending on your logic)


As for turning off the return pump when the ATO reservior is low, I am not sure I agree with that logic. If the ATO reservoir is low, I'd trigger an alarm but not shut the return pump off.

Totally understand how to change the float from a normal state of OPEN vs CLOSED. I was just trying to keep things as simple as I could... BTW saw your post about Tunze Pumps programming and THANK YOU! Exactly what I was trying to do!!!!!!

Raul-7
01/06/2015, 12:22 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Madison-M8000-Miniature-Polypropylene-Pressure/dp/B00909404Y

Spend the extra money and get these, no need to scrimp on a rather important safety feature.

slief
01/06/2015, 11:52 AM
Totally understand how to change the float from a normal state of OPEN vs CLOSED. I was just trying to keep things as simple as I could... BTW saw your post about Tunze Pumps programming and THANK YOU! Exactly what I was trying to do!!!!!!

:beer:

Jlentz
01/06/2015, 08:01 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Madison-M8000-Miniature-Polypropylene-Pressure/dp/B00909404Y

Spend the extra money and get these, no need to scrimp on a rather important safety feature.


How did you rig it up? I was looking at getting some of those but it sounds like finding the nut to secure it to a bracket is hard to come by.

Raul-7
01/06/2015, 09:36 PM
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c28/Raul-7/photo11.jpg

Raul-7
01/06/2015, 09:49 PM
I will take more pictures tomorrow and tell you how to build it (ie. what parts you need).