Heater not keeping up?

[mpderksen]

We set the house to 61°F at night. Based on the graph below, you can see from the amps that my heater stays on constantly for the hours in the middle of the night. The blips of amp increase are the ATO. I have the Apex set to kick off the heater at 77.3, but it's only reaching 77.2. No danger to the tank, but should I raise the house temp a degree or two at night so it doesn't have to work so hard? Looks like my 300W Eheim heater can only keep it just at the edge, and I don't want to add a second heater (no more outlets)
302437

[Yam]

I had the same exact issue. Two 150W heaters, and house temp set to 60°F. I lowered the temp set point to 77 from 78 instead of raising the house temp. Tank now ranges from 75.9 to 77.1.

Hitting tier 3, almost 4 in our electric bill (with solar)...


We set the house to 61°F at night. Based on the graph below, you can see from the amps that my heater stays on constantly for the hours in the middle of the night. The blips of amp increase are the ATO. I have the Apex set to kick off the heater at 77.3, but it's only reaching 77.2. No danger to the tank, but should I raise the house temp a degree or two at night so it doesn't have to work so hard? Looks like my 300W Eheim heater can only keep it just at the edge, and I don't want to add a second heater (no more outlets)
302437

[m0nkie]

same here for my 100 gal. it's the drop in temperature here in CA. Started last week for me. I turned the house heater on and tossed in an extra small tank heater. perfect now

[goochesfish]

I had the same exact issue. Two 150W heaters, and house temp set to 60°F. I lowered the temp set point to 77 from 78 instead of raising the house temp. Tank now ranges from 75.9 to 77.1.

Hitting tier 3, almost 4 in our electric bill (with solar)...

In So Cal where temps reach over 100 degrees in the summer, my electric bill skyrockets. We were out of town an entire month and we were still in tier 3. Im seriously considering getting rid of my tank.

[m0nkie]

Hitting tier 3, almost 4 in our electric bill (with solar)...

Did you count in the tank while doing solar estimates? Im installing solar soon. Talking with a few companies. I wamt to request more panels for future tank upgrades

[myram]

You're asking your heater to maintain your water 16 degrees above the room temperature...........that's a lot. I don't know how big your system is, but a single 300w heater is going to be hard pressed to do that.

I have a basement sump in a basement that stays in the mid 60's and my living room is at 68, I have a 70gal system with 2 - 250w heaters. I would rather have them come on for short periods then to have a smaller one on all the time.

[Yam]

Did you count in the tank while doing solar estimates? Im installing solar soon. Talking with a few companies. I wamt to request more panels for future tank upgrades

Yes we did. During the summer our net usage is almost zero. The biggest consumption of power on the tank is the heater.

[dkeller_nc]

We set the house to 61°F at night. No danger to the tank, but should I raise the house temp a degree or two at night so it doesn't have to work so hard?

It depends on how big your house is, what sort of heating system you have (heat pump, gas furnace, etc...) and what your electric rates are. If you've a large house that's heated by a heat pump, it may be cheaper to buy a larger heater (a 500W titanium heater, for example) or add a smaller (100W) heater to your system that's not plugged into the Apex.

Another solution would be to reduce evaporation and/or insulate part of your tank. Water evaporation carries away an enormous amount of heat. Each gallon of water that evaporates from your system in a 24 hour period carries away the equivalent of 100 watts.

[snorvich]

You're asking your heater to maintain your water 16 degrees above the room temperature...........that's a lot. I don't know how big your system is, but a single 300w heater is going to be hard pressed to do that.

I have a basement sump in a basement that stays in the mid 60's and my living room is at 68, I have a 70gal system with 2 - 250w heaters. I would rather have them come on for short periods then to have a smaller one on all the time.

I agree. The other issue is that a heater is a single point of failure and often (mostly) when they fail, it is the thermostat that fails. Smaller heaters reduce risk considerably in my opinion.

[fishgate]

2 heaters are WAY more efficient than one, especially the eheim heaters which are overrated. Get 2 heaters and they will both work less than a single one and keep the tank temps where they should be using a LOT less power.

[phillrodrigo]

I keep a 200 and a 250 Jagger for my 75 with a 40 gallon sump and a 20h connected to the same sump. It keeps the temp at 78 even higher. I'm pretty sure my room is colder than 60. My pellet stove broke and I'm broke.

[mpderksen]

I do have another 100W Eheim that I use for my QT (empty now and never used copper). Could I put both on a single outlet in my EB8? They'd both be protected by the controller from a failure.
IF that's okay, are you saying it would actually use less electricity? I hadn't thought of that. It would seem that it takes a given amount of energy to heat the water, and the total wattage would be the same over all.
My PGE bill is $495 this month, and it's only cold by California standards, (over-night low of 30°). The house is 2500 sq feet, and the pool pump isn't even running these days. My bill was high before the tank, so I plan to plug in a kill-a-watt to see just what it's costing me.

[moondoggy4]

http://www.amazon.com/Seio-super-Flow-Aqua-1100-Gallon/dp/B0009YF2LO Something like this they heat the water up pretty good. How bout changing out your return pump and put a Mag pump in there for the summer, Tier 3 as well here.

I put in a Iwaki pump for the winter with my 300 watt heater and the Iwaki my tank is 78 to 80 degrees.

[jam583]

My energy rates are nowhere near as high as California, but, Maryland isn't as cheap as some areas. I am doing everything I can to conserve power .. not with much luck .. so, I wanted to see how much my tank was costing me. At my rate, of $0.13/kwh my tank costs me about $62/month in power.

Now, I was having issues running 2 heaters. They would run way too much .. so, I went crazy and put a 1000W heater in. It keeps temp nearly perfect .. kicks on and runs in short spans. I have 2 monitors that can kill the power, if it goes nuts, controlled off an Apex. Yes, I know the risk of a oversizing a heater. But I have found I'm now using less power beacuse it's not running constantly. Just in small hits.

I made a blog about my energy use on the aquarium: http://www.charmcitycorals.com/blog/energy-usage-how-much-my-aquarium-costing-me

[dkeller_nc]

I do have another 100W Eheim that I use for my QT (empty now and never used copper). Could I put both on a single outlet in my EB8? They'd both be protected by the controller from a failure.
IF that's okay, are you saying it would actually use less electricity? I hadn't thought of that. It would seem that it takes a given amount of energy to heat the water, and the total wattage would be the same over all.
My PGE bill is $495 this month, and it's only cold by California standards, (over-night low of 30°). The house is 2500 sq feet, and the pool pump isn't even running these days. My bill was high before the tank, so I plan to plug in a kill-a-watt to see just what it's costing me.

Yes, you can plug both a 300W and a 100W on the same outlet (the total amp draw would be about 3.3 amps, which the outlets on an Apex EB8 will easily handle.

You're correct in that the electricity usage will be exactly equivalent to 1 400W heater. It's true that 2 smaller water pumps use less electricity than a larger one with twice the capacity of one of the smaller ones, but that's not true for resistive heaters (like aquarium heaters).

Given the size of your house, it's going to be considerably cheaper to add some "umph" to your tank heat than raising the house temperature. Though not as cheap as insulating your sump and minimizing evaporation.

[dkeller_nc]

I just looked up Pacific Gas & Electric's residential rates, and they're beyond ridiculous. If I lived in So. Cal., I'd be thinking about installing a natural gas fired generator (or starting an armed insurrection!).

[kegogut]

I have 2 300w and a 400w heater in my system and keep it between 78.2 to 79. My bill is around 130 a month here in St. Louis. I feel for yous on the west coast. I do have gas furnace but electric stove/oven.

If I take out one of the heaters the other two can't keep up. I keep my home at 71-72 all year.

[moondoggy4]

Can you instal a wall heater? They come in different sizes, not all of them are the tall skinny models some are like the size of a 30 inch tv. they do not use any elect. and natural gas is much cheaper than elec.

[mpderksen]

I'm looking into solar, but before I point the finger at the tank, maybe I should ask my teenager why the Xbox needs to be on and all 4 computers!!

In regards to my OP, I was mostly concerned if the 4 hour ON period will shorten the life of the heater. Certainly maintaining 77° is decent enough. I guess I didn't phrase it well enough.
I checked with PGE, and found that, since we moved in, our usage is about double the last owners, and that was before I set up that tank last year. I put an automatic switch in my wife's walk in closet since, for,some reason, she was unable to turn that light off....
With my Nest thermostat, I have it at 62° for night, and 68° during the day. I'm baffled where all the Watts are going. Dog door for the German Shepard? Too many electronics? Christmas lights? Likely a combination.

[sepulvd]

You can always buy a wood stove and burn wood no need for electricity, gas, or propane to warm up your house.propane was costing 200 bucks a month I said screw that so I burn My first floor stays a a cozy 75 degrees all day and second floor stats around 65

[Ruu]

Buy a kill-a-watt. Use it to stalk your energy inefficient prey...

Dave

I'm looking into solar, but before I point the finger at the tank, maybe I should ask my teenager why the Xbox needs to be on and all 4 computers!!

In regards to my OP, I was mostly concerned if the 4 hour ON period will shorten the life of the heater. Certainly maintaining 77° is decent enough. I guess I didn't phrase it well enough.
I checked with PGE, and found that, since we moved in, our usage is about double the last owners, and that was before I set up that tank last year. I put an automatic switch in my wife's walk in closet since, for,some reason, she was unable to turn that light off....
With my Nest thermostat, I have it at 62° for night, and 68° during the day. I'm baffled where all the Watts are going. Dog door for the German Shepard? Too many electronics? Christmas lights? Likely a combination.

[mpderksen]

Buy a kill-a-watt. Use it to stalk your energy inefficient prey...

Dave

Got it yesterday, actually. Now I just need to figure out the $/kWh. Lights are easy, right? In California, we have what's called a "Smart Meter". You can see the draw at any time, digitally. I used that to determine the usage of the house, then kicked on the pool pump and subtracted the difference. That was how I found out that it costs me $10/month for every hour/day it runs. In summer, at 6 hours/day, that's about $60/month for the pool.
Little stuff, like the Vita-mix, have small lights on them, so I know they are drawing power even when off. Someone told me that LED TVs actually draw when off too. Then there's the wireless printer in the office, etc. etc. etc.
It's clearly a 1st World problem, as they say....

[dkeller_nc]

With my Nest thermostat, I have it at 62° for night, and 68° during the day.

You may want to look into this closely. The Nest thermostats use electronic relays instead of mechanical relays to turn a heat pump's compressor on & off. The problem with electronic relays is that even when off, they allow some small amount of current to leak across the connection. On some older systems, this is enough to keep the HVAC compressor running 24/7, and they eventually burn out. There have even been lawsuits filed against Nest for this design "feature".

FYI, here are the power "hogs" in a typical household, in decreasing amounts of energy usage:

HVAC system.
Refrigerator/Freezers
Electric Ovens/Rangetops (these use more power than even the HVAC system, but they're typically not "on" nearly as much)
Electric Water Heating
Electric Clothes Dryers
(The following are a lot less energy intensive than the ones above, by an order of magnitude)
Saltwater Fish Tanks
Continuously-on electronics: DVRs, Computers & Peripherals.
Kitchen appliances - coffee makers, toaster ovens, etc...
Freshwater Fish Tanks
Televisions, particularly plasma tvs or ancient, "tube-type" tvs
Lighting - modern LEDs and Spiral Fluorescents use very little; Halogen lighting, particularly outdoor lighting, use the most

[wolfblue]

It will almost always be cheaper to heat the tank compared to heating a whole house. Watts is Watts. If your using 2400 watts to maintain a 16f delta for 10 hours it wont matter how many heaters you have. But you need to be redundant, all heaters will fail at some point. And don't put 3 300 watt heaters in there if you only need 300 watts. What if two of them stick on. You want to catch failures before they become problems. So set it up so you have the time to catch it.

Your holding at 300watts, but for anybody else reading this my starting point is 1/2 watt per gallon per degree from air temp (I actually use .444). Say its a 120 with 60 in the sump and you want 10f higher than air. 180gx10f=1800x.5w= 900 watts should do it even if its a delta of 10f for 24 hours or more. This works as a rough guide but most will get by with less because of submersible pumps, and you really don't have 180 gallons in there... and so on.

[dkeller_nc]

Don't neglect the idea of insulating your tank/sump and controlling evaporation. The cheapest power is the power you don't use.

If your tank is in a location where only the front pane of glass is visible, buy some aluminum-skinned foam board from the home store and using aluminum duct tape, apply it to the sides, back and bottom of your tank. If you've a sump, skip the foam board on the bottom of the tank and insulate the insides of the tank stand.

Since you're presumably in a dry location in CA, consider closing off the room that the tank's in. The humidity will rise in the room and greatly reduce evaporation from the tank, which will give you the equivalent of 100 watts/gallon of evaporation/day.

As an example, I've a 55 gallon in my basement. It's an old house, so the basement isn't insulated very well. The temp typically stays at 60 deg F during the winter, with occasional dips to 55 deg F if it's really cold outside. Despite this, I maintain the tank at 79 deg F with a single 150 watt Eheim, and it's definitely not on constantly. Keeping the tank that warm with so little heating wattage is primarily the result of insulating the sides, back and bottom of the tank with the above-mentioned foam board, and keeping a glass top on the tank during the winter. Cleaning the glass is a pain, but it's far preferable to shelling out another $15/month in heater power.

[wolfblue]

Insulate the insides of the tank stand.


That's how I try to do it. Except I've just been using blue foam. You do shiny side in?

And everybody, plan for disaster. Your furnace, heat pump or whatever you heat the house with will fail on the first day of the coldest four days of the year. And the companies that can fix that will be bogged down. It happened to me about 20 years ago but I had that extra large heater sitting ready. And be ready to wrap the whole tank with blankets.

[dkeller_nc]

The board I use has a film on both sides - one's metallic aluminum and one's white. I place the aluminum side towards the glass, but honestly, the change from bare glass is so drastic that I don't really think it matters much.

[ksr.aaron]

I fight heat all the time in my basement tank, I have 2 back up 800w heaters

[alton]

I don't run a heater in SOTX, my tanks stay 73 to 75 in the winter. It has since 91 with no ill effects. But in your case since your home stays around 60 I would definitely get a backup on a controller set at two degrees below the first heater just incase the first went bad.