Deep Sand Bed

[Ed Kazz]

Is it possible to remove a deep sand bed from the Refugium without effecting the display tank or water quality ? I have a 180 gal with a 100gal fuge that has been set up for over 8 years. Its about 6" deep with some cheato in it. I had never put any clean up crew or anything else it it. It only collects waste on top and I vacuum it off at water changes. I suspect this is currently necessary and would like to remove it. Can this be done at a water change and just cleaned out ? Also can the sand be reused after being cleaned with some ro/di water?

Thanks
Ed

[fritzz1111]

Yes - assuming you have enough biological filtration occurring in the DT and don't have the bio load to a point it was critically depending on that extra bit of filtration (which is probably doubtful). What are your tank specs a side from size?

Toxic buildup/trapped gases would be a concern I would have since you have not kept CUC or SS down there, and it sounds like you haven't consistently stirred things up (depth wise) when vacuuming... even if you were doing all of those things... 6" is deep.

Here's what I would do - Empty enough water with pumps running to stop flow to sump (both overflow and any siphoning that may be present on your return side of the pump) from your DT. Once that is done I would first remove equipment from sump, then remove sand and drain sump (or drain sump and remove sand). Give her a good cleaning and a final rinse with RODI. Replace equipment and fill sump back up (either with water you drained from DT or new SW you'd use for your WC.

May be a bit of overkill but I would rather be safe then sorry.

I don't see any reason you couldn't recycle the sand. Just rinse, rinse and re-rinse either using removed water from DT or fresh SW.

[ca1ore]

Deep sand beds certainly can go bad, which is why it is prudent to have them separate from the main display. But, what is it that makes you think your sandbed has gone 'bad'? Elevated nitrate or phosphate levels? Rotten egg smell? Algae problems? Corals not looking good? That you didn't purposely add any critters to the refugium, doesn't mean there aren't a profusion of worms there helping to keep things in check.

I keep my sump/refugium elevated so I can see the bottom of the sand, but I concede that most people don't do this. Can you inspect the sides at least to see if there are any blackened areas?

DSB is probably not contributing to your bio filter an any significant way, though post removal, testing for ammonia is probably prudent. Just take the sump offline, remove the sand and water, and refill with NSW. You can certainly reuse the sand if you wish, though wasting RODI water rinsing sand is sort of pointless. Just use the garden hose.

[Ed Kazz]

Thanks for the suggestions...
I have had this setup for well over 12 years. Never able to grow a single coral (hard or soft). Bought good equipment from day one (korallin calium reactor,etss skimmer,typhoon 3 ri/do,chiller,sea swirls,etc...).Used salifert/hanna test kits. Alk 9 cal 550 mag 1450. Just changed lighting from 3-150 metal halide / atentic (coralife fixture) to reef breeders 2-Photon 32 fixtures. Lighting has been in for 4 months and now all coraline algae is gone ??? I vacuum off top layer of sand @ water changes..but think there is way too much junk over the years? I am going to try this before calling it quits!

[downbeach]

From this article (http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html).


Problems:
More imagined than real problems bedevil keepers of sand beds. The imagined problems are proposed by people who are ignorant of the sand bed dynamics. Among these imaginary problems are accumulations of hydrogen sulfide and detritus, and the need for sifting. Hydrogen sulfide will indeed be formed in the lowermost layers of a deep sand bed. It will NOT migrate up through the sediments to poison a tank. Hydrogen sulfide is an amazingly toxic gas, but that toxicity is exceeded by its pungent rotten-egg odor. The gas will have an exceptionally strong odor, and will seem overwhelming at levels well BELOW toxic amounts. If you can smell this stuff without it literally taking your breath away, it won't be at a harmful concentration. There is no real evidence to indicate that it may reach toxic levels in a deep sand bed.
Detritus build up in the sediment is another non-problem. If the sediment fauna is thriving, there will be a slight build up of fine detritus while the rest will be processed by the infauna. The final imaginary problem, the presumed need for sifting in a healthy sand bed, simply does not exist. Small organism movements "sift" the sand sufficiently. Any other sifting of a healthy bed will cause serious harm.
Sand beds recycle materials and export many of the excess nutrients in an aquarium. Some excess nutrients are mobilized by becoming soluble through metabolic processes and need to be exported either as harvestable macroalgae or animals, grown in the main tank or a sump.
The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna.
Conclusion:
The installation of a live sand bed is easy, straight-forward, and inexpensive relative to almost all other aquarium purchases. Once established, such a bed will contribute much to the success of a reef tank by providing a biological filter with sufficient capacity to for most tanks. Additionally it will provide food for many of the suspension feeding animals such as small polyped stony corals. And, it will do this all with a minimum of care and expense.

[oseymour]

I used a DSB since day one in my Display and Refugium with no issues. At the time I didn't know what it was called but it looked natural to me.

My tank is about a year and a half old. I never vacuum or clean it, I have a CUC of various snails, starfish and emerald crabs in the DT and a smaller CUC in the sump. I've been able to LPS and soft corals since day 1 and only recently started experiment with SPS with mixed results.

I seed it with Pods, worms and other critters about every 6 months. I see various tunnels and colors in it, I also see bubbles pop from my sandbed all the time.

The only animals I have that burrow in the sand are 2 nassarius snails.

[ca1ore]

From this article (http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html).


Problems:
More imagined than real problems bedevil keepers of sand beds. The imagined problems are proposed by people who are ignorant of the sand bed dynamics. Among these imaginary problems are accumulations of hydrogen sulfide and detritus, and the need for sifting. Hydrogen sulfide will indeed be formed in the lowermost layers of a deep sand bed. It will NOT migrate up through the sediments to poison a tank. Hydrogen sulfide is an amazingly toxic gas, but that toxicity is exceeded by its pungent rotten-egg odor. The gas will have an exceptionally strong odor, and will seem overwhelming at levels well BELOW toxic amounts. If you can smell this stuff without it literally taking your breath away, it won't be at a harmful concentration. There is no real evidence to indicate that it may reach toxic levels in a deep sand bed.
Detritus build up in the sediment is another non-problem. If the sediment fauna is thriving, there will be a slight build up of fine detritus while the rest will be processed by the infauna. The final imaginary problem, the presumed need for sifting in a healthy sand bed, simply does not exist. Small organism movements "sift" the sand sufficiently. Any other sifting of a healthy bed will cause serious harm.
Sand beds recycle materials and export many of the excess nutrients in an aquarium. Some excess nutrients are mobilized by becoming soluble through metabolic processes and need to be exported either as harvestable macroalgae or animals, grown in the main tank or a sump.
The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna.
Conclusion:
The installation of a live sand bed is easy, straight-forward, and inexpensive relative to almost all other aquarium purchases. Once established, such a bed will contribute much to the success of a reef tank by providing a biological filter with sufficient capacity to for most tanks. Additionally it will provide food for many of the suspension feeding animals such as small polyped stony corals. And, it will do this all with a minimum of care and expense.

Excellent citation. I'm old enough to actually remember Ron's original article back in 2001. Made a ton of sense to me then, still does, and is a significant influence on why I don't stir up my sand bed or vacuum it at all, ever.

[ca1ore]

Thanks for the suggestions...
I have had this setup for well over 12 years. Never able to grow a single coral (hard or soft). Bought good equipment from day one (korallin calium reactor,etss skimmer,typhoon 3 ri/do,chiller,sea swirls,etc...).Used salifert/hanna test kits. Alk 9 cal 550 mag 1450. Just changed lighting from 3-150 metal halide / atentic (coralife fixture) to reef breeders 2-Photon 32 fixtures. Lighting has been in for 4 months and now all coraline algae is gone ??? I vacuum off top layer of sand @ water changes..but think there is way too much junk over the years? I am going to try this before calling it quits!

Do you use RODI water as your source? Reason I ask is that prior to buying a RODI unit, I would experience 'old tank syndrome' at about the 5 year mark after which no corals would thrive. You also might consider submitting a sample of your water for Triton testing. I cannot guarantee that Triton might not be a set of new clothes for the emperor, but it may also prove to be a superb diagnostic tool. Tests are not cheap (around $40 a pop) but I just did one and am quite pleased with the results. Just suggestin'

[oseymour]

Excellent citation. I'm old enough to actually remember Ron's original article back in 2001. Made a ton of sense to me then, still does, and is a significant influence on why I don't stir up my sand bed or vacuum it at all, ever.

I actually emailed Ron to ask some questions about my DSB and his response is that the frequent recharge is key to it.

[ca1ore]

I actually emailed Ron to ask some questions about my DSB and his response is that the frequent recharge is key to it.

I don't doubt that. Alas, that is something I have been remiss in doing. I know there is an online vendor that's sells detritivore kits, is that what you do?

[Ed Kazz]

I am at a loss and do not what to do.
After reading (thank you) I am not going to touch the DSB. But must add something to work the sand (never anything in there).Suggestions?

Yes I am using ro/di (ice and water typhoon 3) from day one. Fish are doing great !
Corals go in last a few weeks then die? The only thing that I did NOT buy was the base rock when first installed tank. I was given to me by my brother-in-law from his 300gal he shut down. The rock (very nice pieces) sat outside for a few weeks while I built a fish room. Rock was soaked in Clorox for a few days then rinsed many times. I had called him a few days ago and ask about corals ...he never had luck ether ! Over the years I have had many people from local pet stores look at system and had water tested by them and said they could find "nothing wrong". and have way more equipment than I need and it should not be that hard!
Maybe something is leaching from one of the rocks that are in the tank (tested for copper ...ok , run GFO,carbon) I hate to replace rock but will try to have water tested by a lab !! Thanks ca1ore must look up Triton testing ?

Thanks for all the suggestions
Ed

[downbeach]

http://www.ipsf.com/livesand.html

http://www.ipsf.com/reefworms.html

[Ed Kazz]

Thanks Downbeach !

[Mishri]

Controversial subject. You have a wide range of people with various levels of success. Take PaulB who vacuums and stirs up his sand bed with a 35 year old tank. Sand, how much to put in (if any), and what to do to maintain it has a wide range with every type having an example of years of success.

My guess is the sand bed doesn't really matter at all, you can do whatever you think is right. If it is serving a function in your tank, there are other things that can serve the same function.

[oseymour]

I don't doubt that. Alas, that is something I have been remiss in doing. I know there is an online vendor that's sells detritivore kits, is that what you do?

I use http://www.IPSF.com and get the Reefworks, Mamma Mia worms, Bristleworms and sea stars.

I also add amphipods and copepods.

One thing I also noticed is that the sand you use is very important to keeping amphipods and copepods alive. Not any scientific evidence just noticed that amongst my friends in the hobby.

[ca1ore]

One thing I also noticed is that the sand you use is very important to keeping amphipods and copepods alive. Not any scientific evidence just noticed that amongst my friends in the hobby.

I would tend to concur. My display and refugia use the coarser special grade sand, and while I see plenty of small mysis, and larger pods; nothing compared to the swarms in my RDSB that uses the sugar sized soft sands. Of course, no fish in the latter to eat them either :)