Fluke vs scales

[NarakuAulonocar]

Do scales ever fall off fish after hypo?

I was doing a water change in my quarantine, so I added fresh water to see if my fish had flukes (since he was twitching). I saw scale like stuff fall off.

Is this flukes? If so, how is it possible. I have done 3 weeks of prazi during tank transfer. I also did formalin dips in the first 2 weeks. I did an extended tank transfer.

This fish has been in my care for over a year and 7 months. Been through prazi and multiple tank transfers. I have tried to ramp up with cupramine but he always stops eating so I quit halfway. It currently has a spot on its pectoral and twitches occasionally. The spot is suggested to me as lympho by Snorvich but the twitching bothers me. There is no medication currently.

He is acting normal for the most part but ocassionally twitches and goes on periods of hunger strike but regains appetite.

He seems to hate spectrum pellets but will eat it when nothing else is available. He gobbles mysis like a champ but will stop eating pellets when given mysis, so I stopped mysis (due to lack of nutritional value). Normally he only eats like 10 pellets at night. He is not skinny but is getting a little bit of HLLE due to stubbornness in eating.

[Newsmyrna80]

First mysis is nutritionally sound. You may be confusing it with brine shrimp. Try to feed a varied diet and add Selcon or some other vitamin which may help the HLLE.
Second, I'm confused why you have had him for 19 months and have done "several tank transfers". What are you treating this fish for? Formalin dips, cupramine, hypo, TT? You've put this poor fish thought the ringer.
Third, please explain "I was doing a water change in my quarantine, so I added fresh water". What was the salinity prior to and after adding freshwater?
Did the scale like thing become more opaque the longer it was in the water?

[NarakuAulonocar]

First mysis is nutritionally sound. You may be confusing it with brine shrimp. Try to feed a varied diet and add Selcon or some other vitamin which may help the HLLE.
Second, I'm confused why you have had him for 19 months and have done "several tank transfers". What are you treating this fish for? Formalin dips, cupramine, hypo, TT? You've put this poor fish thought the ringer.
Third, please explain "I was doing a water change in my quarantine, so I added fresh water". What was the salinity prior to and after adding freshwater?
Did the scale like thing become more opaque the longer it was in the water?


I am trying to figure out why he is still twitching. I added freshwater to replace evaporated water, salinity is 1.025. Formalin dips, cupramine transfers etc happened many months ago. He is not being treated now. Just observed. Food is being soaked in selcon as per suggested. This fish would be "put through the ringer" if died of ich or flukes. Isn't prophylactic treatment practiced widely on this forum? Please explain why I put this "poor fish through the ringer" if I am following common preventative measures. But thanks for your concern.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Can't tell if "scale" became more opaque. Doesn't look like it.

His behavior scares me because he used to eat pellets like a champ. I'm afraid if he has something that's affecting his appetite.

Not sure if he is being picky or is he sick?

[caribfan]

What kind of fish. I have seen my butterflies lose the occasional scale, but they are almost always colored.

If it's a yellow fish and the "scale" is white, it's probably not a scale.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Hi Matt,

Its a red sea heniochus. The scale looks clear with a little grey (like the band on the fish).


What kind of fish. I have seen my butterflies lose the occasional scale, but they are almost always colored.

If it's a yellow fish and the "scale" is white, it's probably not a scale.

[Newsmyrna80]

I am trying to figure out why he is still twitching. I added freshwater to replace evaporated water, salinity is 1.025.
Formalin dips, cupramine transfers etc happened many months ago. He is not being treated now. Just observed. Food is being soaked in selcon as per suggested. This fish would be "put through the ringer" if died of ich or flukes. Isn't prophylactic treatment practiced widely on this forum? Please explain why I put this "poor fish through the ringer" if I am following common preventative measures. But thanks for your concern.

No, these types of treatments are not customarily performed as prophylaxis. And definitely not in conjunction with one another. One round of TT or cupramine are common preventative measures for cryptocaryon. Two rounds of Prazi is a common preventative measure for flukes.
Most experienced aquarists do not needlessly expose their fish to medications/chemicals, like formalin, because it puts undue stress on the fish.
As for your original question flukes need to be exposed to freshwater for at least 2 minutes before they release their hooks from the fish. Since you were only adding top off water it is highly unlikely that you were looking at a fluke.
Best of luck to you and your fish.

[NarakuAulonocar]

No, these types of treatments are not customarily performed as prophylaxis. And definitely not in conjunction with one another. One round of TT or cupramine are common preventative measures for cryptocaryon. Two rounds of Prazi is a common preventative measure for flukes.
Most experienced aquarists do not needlessly expose their fish to medications/chemicals, like formalin, because it puts undue stress on the fish.
As for your original question flukes need to be exposed to freshwater for at least 2 minutes before they release their hooks from the fish. Since you were only adding top off water it is highly unlikely that you were looking at a fluke.
Best of luck to you and your fish.



Ok, I guess tank transfer, cupramine, prazi are not "customarily performed as prophylaxis" then. What are you suggesting? Just observed and not treat? Please enlighten me, since you are an experienced aquarist.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Treatment was as follows:


Tank transfer: 3 weeks in conjunction with prazi.
Formalin dip between transfers in the first 2 weeks.

The reason for extended duration was because i have experienced what I thought was persistent ich in this species before.

Formalin was a preventative for brook and uronema.

Wouldn't it make sense to combine prazi with TT anyways because prazi is supposed to be three treatments 5 days apart, with water change? I thought the transfer would act as a water change.

I stopped cupramine because of intolerance. If fish tolerated it, I would have done cupramine instead of TT.

So based on my understanding, you are suggesting TT for ich. Then PP for flukes and observe. Am I correct? and not to treat (No prophylaxis) unless symptomatic? How long would you observe?

[Newsmyrna80]

Ok, I guess tank transfer, cupramine, prazi are not "customarily performed as prophylaxis" then. What are you suggesting? Just observed and not treat? Please enlighten me, since you are an experienced aquarist.

I'm sure others will jump in here to help you. Hopefully you are not as defensive with them.

[NarakuAulonocar]

I sound defensive because you were rude and basically accused me of torturing my fish when I am trying to help it. My philosophy in life is if someone is nice to me, I will be nice back. If someone is attacking or bullying me, I won't tolerate it. Its that simple.


I'm sure others will jump in here to help you. Hopefully you are not as defensive with them.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Newsmyrna80,

OK, I reread your first post and realized that maybe I overreacted. It sounded to me you were just saying that I put it through a lot of treatments which may or may not be necessary.

I apologize for misunderstanding.

So regarding my quarantine regimen, what would you guys do differently.
I am open to suggestions. right now, I am just observing and feeding as suggested.

The twitch is not always there. He only twitches occasionally.

[NarakuAulonocar]

He refuses all other food (frozen, pellets, nori) except mysis.
Not sure if mysis alone is good enough.

I am concerned about the change in appetite because when I first got him, he only ate mysis. I trained him onto pellets which he eventually ate eagerly.

He went on periodic hunger strikes and I was able to wean his appetite thru mysis again. Then retrain on to pellets but this hunger strike is bothering me.

He only eats at night time

I'm not sure if he is just picky or if the hunger strike is a sign that he is not well.

Breathing is mostly normal but ocassionally fast if he just ate or surprised.

[caribfan]

My typical quarantine methods are:

30 days of cupramine. Every fish gets this, including three venustus angels and two Regal angels, and an achilles tang. I go very slow and monitor copper closely throughout the entire treatment.

I do two rounds of prazi, usually 3 to 5 days apart. So dose prazi, with a treatment period of 5 days, large water change, wait 5 days, dose prazi again for a treatment of 5 days.

I pretty much never have used formalin, although I know some swear by it.

If I suspect a fish to have flukes, I will do a FW for no less than 3 minutes and typically closer to 10 minutes.

FWIW, NewSmyrna is one of the resident fluke experts here.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Matt,

Did you ever have butterflyfish stop eating during the ramp up for cupramine?
Does your octofasciatus refuse everything except mysis like my fish?

I did a FW dip (10 min) the first day I got him, before going in the quarantine. Nothing came out if I remember. Then during the transfers, nothing came out during the dips but while in the QT, I noticed white grains like sand fall all over the floor and he would twitch. Eventually, there were no grains anymore as I approached the last few transfers.

I noticed that when I had regular henis, they did better in groups. I had 2 regular heni which ate eagerly but the large one chased the little one. When I sold the large one, the little one started to eat less and only ate at night.

I'm thinking about getting another red sea heni but want to hold that thought until I'm absolutely sure everything is OK.



My typical quarantine methods are:

30 days of cupramine. Every fish gets this, including three venustus angels and two Regal angels, and an achilles tang. I go very slow and monitor copper closely throughout the entire treatment.

I do two rounds of prazi, usually 3 to 5 days apart. So dose prazi, with a treatment period of 5 days, large water change, wait 5 days, dose prazi again for a treatment of 5 days.

I pretty much never have used formalin, although I know some swear by it.

If I suspect a fish to have flukes, I will do a FW for no less than 3 minutes and typically closer to 10 minutes.

FWIW, NewSmyrna is one of the resident fluke experts here.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Matt,

When you say slow, how many days did it take to get to therapeutic levels?

How many drops per gallon?

Originally, I got red sea heni because I thought it was a neat substitute for the Moorish Idol but hardier. I'm beginning to feel that this fish is just as much work as a moorish idol :crazy1:

[caribfan]

Matt,

Did you ever have butterflyfish stop eating during the ramp up for cupramine?

Not typically, but I'm sure it's happened. If it does happen, I usually stop treatment, apply carbon and do a large water change.

Does your octofasciatus refuse everything except mysis like my fish?

I pretty much exclusively feed LRS foods, with the occasional PE mysis, clams on the half shell and Sea Veggies.

I did a FW dip (10 min) the first day I got him, before going in the quarantine. Nothing came out if I remember.

If there were flukes, you most likely would have noticed it during that initial dip.

Then during the transfers, nothing came out during the dips but while in the QT, I noticed white grains like sand fall all over the floor and he would twitch. Eventually, there were no grains anymore as I approached the last few transfers.

I noticed that when I had regular henis, they did better in groups. I had 2 regular heni which ate eagerly but the large one chased the little one. When I sold the large one, the little one started to eat less and only ate at night.

I'm thinking about getting another red sea heni but want to hold that thought until I'm absolutely sure everything is OK.

Matt,

When you say slow, how many days did it take to get to therapeutic levels?

I cut the dosage/day in half and still go every other day. So instead of taking 4 days to get to effective levels, I end up taking 8 days. I also usually try to stick to 0.35 - 0.40, instead of the recommended 0.50

How many drops per gallon?

I use ml instead of drops, it's easier that way for me.

Originally, I got red sea heni because I thought it was a neat substitute for the Moorish Idol but hardier. I'm beginning to feel that this fish is just as much work as a moorish idol :crazy1:

I can see how you might think that, but I'm pretty sure Peter, the RC butterfly aficionado recently struggled to get his Heni eating well, not sure if it was a Red Sea Variant though.

You might hop on over to his threads and ask about the scales and cupramine effects, he might be able to offer more insight.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Hey Matt,

Peter responded, and he thinks that a twitchy butterfly is sick. He didn't have hunger strike nor copper sensitivity.

[caribfan]

Saw that. Can you take a video? I realize that it will be tough to get the twitch.

You said this fish has been through Prazi and tt correct?

[NarakuAulonocar]

Yeah PP and TT.
I'll try to use my galaxy and record it. Will try to post it today or tomorrow.

He only occasionally twitches, so I hope I can catch him in action.
I pulled him from the display back to the quarantine. He was the only fish in the display.

Probably wont be able to see the white spot on his pectoral though. The spot also shrunk in size during the past few week.

[caribfan]

This is a bit outside the box, but do you think it could be stray current causing the twitching?

Have you ever measured or tested for that? The easiest way to do it (especially In the winter) is to stick a finger with a small cut on it in your tank. If there's even the smallest amount of current, you'll feel a small sting.

You could also use a volt meter, but not every one has that and if your home is older, it may not have grounded outlets, which you need to test it properly.

Just a thought.

When you say hunger strikes, how long are we talking?

[NarakuAulonocar]

Hunger strike lasts around 2 weeks up to 5 weeks. He is stubborn. I usually just give in and give mysis. But I am unable to make him fat on mysis alone. Currently he just ate a couple pellets, this was after around 3 weeks of refusing. He only eats at night time.

Say, if there was stray. Would you buy a GFCI or just switch equipments? I read some article stating that probes can cause the problem.

I will consider putting my hands in but currently, some of my african cichlids are suspect for tuberculosis (Skinny), so I am paranoid about disease transmission. I wear disposable gloves and use separate buckets/hoses for each tank.

[NarakuAulonocar]

My parents bought the house in 1997. Are houses grounded back then?

Whenever, he eats pellets, he gains weight and looks healthier, even if he only eats a little.

Its weird that he used to eat during the day but now only eats at night.

Do you think fish suffer depression? Maybe its lonely from being the only fish in the tank?

[caribfan]

Hunger strike lasts around 2 weeks up to 5 weeks. He is stubborn. I usually just give in and give mysis. But I am unable to make him fat on mysis alone. Currently he just ate a couple pellets, this was after around 3 weeks of refusing. He only eats at night time.

Say, if there was stray. Would you buy a GFCI or just switch equipments? I read some article stating that probes can cause the problem.

I will consider putting my hands in but currently, some of my african cichlids are suspect for tuberculosis (Skinny), so I am paranoid about disease transmission. I wear disposable gloves and use separate buckets/hoses for each tank.

If it's stray current, the GFCI will just trip. The best way to fix stray current is to isolate the piece of equipment causing the problem and replace it.

Interesting about the Tuberculosis, I suppose I should be more careful, but i've never worn gloves over the last 15 years and never had a problem.

[caribfan]

My parents bought the house in 1997. Are houses grounded back then?

Whenever, he eats pellets, he gains weight and looks healthier, even if he only eats a little.

Its weird that he used to eat during the day but now only eats at night.

Do you think fish suffer depression? Maybe its lonely from being the only fish in the tank?

If the house was built in 1997, then yes, the circuits should be grounded.

As i'm thinking about the situation overall, I keep coming back to the fish likely just being malnourished. You've been proactive in preventing any pathogens, but maybe not made the right choices, or at least used the proper resources to ensure good nutrition.

Mysis is a good protein source, but IMO, by itself is not enough.

Many people like and use pellets, I do not. Butterflies like a wide variety of foods, specifically proteins.

I think your best course of action is going to be to spend the next two weeks finding and feeding quality food sources to this fish and not worrying about feeding it pellets. Like I said before, I like the Larry's Reef Services products. If those aren't available, Rods or Roggers is another option some people use. If those aren't available, buy some fresh seafood, scallops, clams on the half shell, uncooked shrimp and use a cheese grater to shred those foods into small particles. Additionally, whenever possible, I like to use supplements such as Selcon and Vitachem in alternating fashion to soak my foods in. These foods can be messy, be sure to maintain good water quality.

If he's been in your care of 19 months and isn't dead from a pathogen, it's unlikely that he's going to be dead from some unknown pathogen in the next two weeks.

Spend some time feeding him well and let's see what happens.

[NarakuAulonocar]

Matt,

Thanks for your advice. I will try to feed him a more varied diet.

He just ate some pellets today. So far, he has rejected nori and wakame (dried sea weed).

My LFS didn't carry the brand you recommended. I tried some frozen sponge/ angel formula and he refused it.

I'm just concerned about introducing disease via fresh seafood- clams etc.
Should I be? especially since I saw some people introduce ich via unquarantined invertebrates. At our grocery, they tend to mix the shellfish with fish.

[caribfan]

Matt,

Thanks for your advice. I will try to feed him a more varied diet.

He just ate some pellets today. So far, he has rejected nori and wakame (dried sea weed).

My LFS didn't carry the brand you recommended. I tried some frozen sponge/ angel formula and he refused it.

I'm just concerned about introducing disease via fresh seafood- clams etc.
Should I be? especially since I saw some people introduce ich via unquarantined invertebrates. At our grocery, they tend to mix the shellfish with fish.

You should be concerned, but typically freezing the food first eliminates any concern regarding introducing disease. On truly finicky eaters, I will go buy an oyster, have it shucked at the store and dump it right in; thats on rare occasions though.

If he's eating pellets, stick with it. Just be sure to try and offer other meaty fresh seafoods.

Where are you located?

[NarakuAulonocar]

On my location: NJ

I'm not too far from the shore.

[caribfan]

Gotta be a decent shop in New Jersey somewhere selling Larry's product.

[TitanCi]

This is a bit outside the box, but do you think it could be stray current causing the twitching?

Have you ever measured or tested for that? The easiest way to do it (especially In the winter) is to stick a finger with a small cut on it in your tank. If there's even the smallest amount of current, you'll feel a small sting.

You could also use a volt meter, but not every one has that and if your home is older, it may not have grounded outlets, which you need to test it properly.

Just a thought.

When you say hunger strikes, how long are we talking?


I've found this method out by accident. Had a power head with a stray current. Didn't know why my clownfish would swim so strangely...

Stuck a hand in with a cut and got zapped! I couldn't believe that was happening, thought it was salt water stinging me. Did it a few more times and sure enough...

[NarakuAulonocar]

Ok, after looking at Newsmyrna80's posted picture on Chicago's forum,

I am sure that its scales and not flukes.

Have not posted for a while since, he started eating pellets again at that time.
Around 2 days ago he stopped eating again. :rolleye1: