interpreting Triton test results

[bbaz123456]

So I just got this back and I am not really sure exactly what I am looking at. I know my nitrates and phosphates are extremely high and that was my reasoning for getting the test. My main display is approx 1500 gallons and I have an additional 700 gallon fuge that has been very efficient on keeping the nutrients down until recently, so I am in search of the missing element(s) of why the macros are not growing.
Being a novice chemist, the detectable levels of Cu did pop out at me. Is 3.81 ug/l a high enough level to cause alarm? And what could be the source? Could macros release copper if the died? I understand there is trace amounts in salt mixes and other additives, I'm just not sure what a "safe" trace amount is. Over the past year I have lost the majority of my sps corals but I am worried about my stingrays and sharks in the main display.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!

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[bertoni]

What supplements are going into the tank? The phosphate level, if accurate, is very high, and could cause problems for corals. The other numbers likely are safe enough, although I'm not sure why the iodine level is so high, and that might be an issue.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree there are several issues.

Salinity looks low.

Iron is high. Are you dosing it?

[bbaz123456]

I dose b-ionic at a very low rate manually, maybe a cup every 2-3 weeks. Phosphates are very high, that is why I got the test. I have always been able to maintain with macro algae harvest until recently. I used to harvest over a pound per week and have not taken any out in a few months with very little growth, but steadily rising nutrients. I have been dosing Kents iron supplement on an "as needed basis". Much lower than recommended dose. It recommends 5 ml per 50 gal once a week I believe and I have had the bottle (64 oz maybe) for over a year and it is still half full.

[bbaz123456]

Salinity is showing up as 1.024 on my refractometer. My hydrometer says 1.021 but it has always been about 4 points off. Is this saying that is wrong?

[bertoni]

How was the refractometer calibrated? The canonical ocean average SG is about 1.0264, so that might account for some of the difference.

[bbaz123456]

I calibrate it to zero with RO water every time I use it

[bbaz123456]

Higher levels of Ca and Mg would show up as higher salinity...Correct?

[bertoni]

Calibration with distilled water can be very inaccurate:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-12/rhf/index.php

I'd get a saltwater standard like the PinPoint 53 mS/cm² product, and see how that measures.

[doctorwhoreefer]

What salt brand are you using also?

[bbaz123456]

Calibration with distilled water can be very inaccurate:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-12/rhf/index.php

I'd get a saltwater standard like the PinPoint 53 mS/cm² product, and see how that measures.

Thank you! I will pick some up tomorrow.
Great info as with all of Randy's articles. I think my IQ rises 1.026 every time I read one

[bbaz123456]

What salt brand are you using also?
75% Instant ocean
25% Reef crystals

[bbaz123456]

Also, would potassium chloride(water softener salt substitute), be ok to raise K levels up?

[bbaz123456]

It appears to be what I should use. I found a calculator that says to use 88 ounces. I will start dosing that slowly over the next week or two. Guessing that could be my limiting nutrient for the macros?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Higher levels of Ca and Mg would show up as higher salinity...Correct?

No, since it is dominated by sodium, chloride, and sulfate. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also, would potassium chloride(water softener salt substitute), be ok to raise K levels up?

Possibly. Depends on how pure it is.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I dose b-ionic at a very low rate manually, maybe a cup every 2-3 weeks. Phosphates are very high, that is why I got the test. I have always been able to maintain with macro algae harvest until recently. I used to harvest over a pound per week and have not taken any out in a few months with very little growth, but steadily rising nutrients. I have been dosing Kents iron supplement on an "as needed basis". Much lower than recommended dose. It recommends 5 ml per 50 gal once a week I believe and I have had the bottle (64 oz maybe) for over a year and it is still half full.

I might reduce the iron significantly. How did you decide what was "needed"?

[Eyore]

what is bionic?

while sodium is very low saying low salinity, sulphate is very high, especially once you increase by 20% or so

lithium, molybdenum, zinc and iodine are all massively over

i have not seen results like this in the uk

[doctorwhoreefer]

So far the big offenders for massive lithium numbers is US salts..

At least from what I've seen. There may have been one brand in Europe, but they very well could be sourcing it locally here. I can only imagine the cost of importing the weight of salt!

Though some might say there's not been any concrete discoveries to biological interactions with such elevated levels of lithium, it pretty much nullifies the "comparable to natural saltwater" argument.

[bertoni]

what is bionic?
B-Ionic is a commercial two-part alkalinity and calcium supplement. It works very well, in my experience, although the DIY is cheaper.

[Eyore]

So far the big offenders for massive lithium numbers is US salts..

At least from what I've seen. There may have been one brand in Europe, but they very well could be sourcing it locally here. I can only imagine the cost of importi7ng the weight of salt!

Though some might say there's not been any concrete discoveries to biological interactions with such elevated levels of lithium, it pretty much nullifies the "comparable to natural saltwater" argument.

quite

B-Ionic is a commercial two-part alkalinity and calcium supplement. It works very well, in my experience, although the DIY is cheaper.

so no 3rd part to explain the sulphur? (assuming used in excess)

(forgive me i know very little of american products)

[bertoni]

B-Ionic has only two parts. They most likely add some calcium sulfate to the mix to keep the anions more balanced.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

what is bionic?

while sodium is very low saying low salinity, sulphate is very high, especially once you increase by 20% or so


Yes, but that just means chloride is way low. Sodium and sulfate cannot offset each other in terms of salinity as they have opposite charges.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

B-Ionic has only two parts. They most likely add some calcium sulfate to the mix to keep the anions more balanced.

Or sodium sulfate in the alk part. That's how I would do it. :)

[bertoni]

Ah, I see. :)

[Eyore]

Yes, but that just means chloride is way low. Sodium and sulfate cannot offset each other in terms of salinity as they have opposite charges.

true

but it does mean that either what the tank started on, or what has been added is not in a ratio akin to nsw

if it was it would be reasonable to expect sulphur to be approximatley 750 from that sodium level in terms of salinity

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

true

but it does mean that either what the tank started on, or what has been added is not in a ratio akin to nsw

if it was it would be reasonable to expect sulphur to be approximatley 750 from that sodium level in terms of salinity

Yes, it is certainly off, and for reasons that we do not know, but may be due to the salt mix or additives. I thought you were suggesting that it helped offset the apparent low salinity from the sodium. :)

[Eyore]

Yes, it is certainly off, and for reasons that we do not know, but may be due to the salt mix or additives. I thought you were suggesting that it helped offset the apparent low salinity from the sodium. :)

No

tbh i was suggesting /expecting given the levels of sodium and magnesium that an excess of magnesium sulphate had been used at some point, which is why i asked re bionic

[bbaz123456]

I might reduce the iron significantly. How did you decide what was "needed"?

Definitely will stop dosing. I would add when macro growth started to slow or colors started to fade.
I was under the impression that it would be hard to overdose iron. I know you did not specifically say that in your articles regarding iron, but I figured I was being cautious by dosing much less than Kents recommended dosage.
If some macro algae is dying off would that iron be released back into the water?
I mentioned I grow the majority of it in a greenhouse...I may or may not have mentioned I live in Ohio and it is winter time. I do supplement lighting with approx an additional 1000 watts of LEDs over the winter but that does not compare to the summer sun.
I did have a major crash last winter where I lost 90% off SPS corals that I attributed to a heater malfunction but it may have been more than just that.

[bbaz123456]

Also....my problems this year actually started late summer when I was still getting plenty of sunlight. I have never had an issue with keeping NO3 under 10ppm and PO4 under.2-.3, usually less. Now NO3 is 50+ and PO4 is 2.5ppm.

[bbaz123456]

What would be suggestions on getting back on track? Bite the bullet and do some large water changes? I have my refractometer with me today and plan on stopping at a lfs to get some calibration solution and test against theirs

[bbaz123456]

what is bionic?

while sodium is very low saying low salinity, sulphate is very high, especially once you increase by 20% or so

lithium, molybdenum, zinc and iodine are all massively over

i have not seen results like this in the uk

I may have an idea where these came from. A few years ago I had a major briopsis outbreak that I battled by raising mag levels. To do this I used epsom salt (mgso4) and mag chloride at the same ratio they occur in nsw. Like I said I am no chemist but I could guess that "s" in mgso4 means sulfur?? And they were farm grade so it is likely they had other contaminates in them.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would be suggestions on getting back on track? Bite the bullet and do some large water changes? I have my refractometer with me today and plan on stopping at a lfs to get some calibration solution and test against theirs

What salt mix are you using?

[bbaz123456]

Instant ocean. Normally I do 2 very small 50 gallon, 2%, water changes a week. The reason for that is That I have two small breeding systems that I change about 20% and put that water into the main tank.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmm. I use IO too and didn't have such an imbalance. The magnesium, if used in the NSW ratio should not have caused a bump in sulfate.

What ratio did you use?

[bbaz123456]

Hmm. I use IO too and didn't have such an imbalance. The magnesium, if used in the NSW ratio should not have caused a bump in sulfate.

What ratio did you use?
I looked but do not have it in my notes...that was before the flood...when I lost about 600 gallons of saltwater in my living and flooded out the basement, that notebook got tossed. But I know I just looked up the natural levels in seawater and went with that ratio

[bbaz123456]

I tested my salinity today. 1.0200!!
I now have a bottle of refractometer cal solution in my arsenal.
What surprises me, is that I have been maintaining a somewhat healthy reef for quite a few years at that level. I am fairly certain it has always been there since I calibrated my $8 Instant ocean hydrometer against my refractometer. The hydrometer always read 1.020 but I assumed it was off by .005.
To raise salinity, would the best option be to dose pure NaCl or would it be ok to top off with mixed salt water and let evaporation do it's thing?

[bertoni]

I would top off with saltwater or part saltwater, part RO/DI for a while, and let evaporation do the job. That should be more gentle on the animals. Do you have a good estimate of the water volume and the amount of evaporation per day?

[Eyore]

for me, i differ

given the levels of sodium and potassium (very low), and mg ca etc

i would top up with nacl and kcl

topping up with saltwater mix will elevate everything as per the saltwater mix

admittedly previously as hobbiests we would correct low salinity with saltwater mix, however you have an icp to analyse your water- why would you not use this information? it is what it is for afterall, to use to correct.

[bertoni]

Well, we'll see how well the Triton testing holds up over time. We've seen other testing results that seemed fairly iffy, so I would be cautious about making changes.

[Eyore]

Well, we'll see how well the Triton testing holds up over time. We've seen other testing results that seemed fairly iffy, so I would be cautious about making changes.

tbh, i am not entirely 100% on this either way

on hlpc i saw some ridiculous figures, figures for elevated sodium and chloride for example that were so far past anything plausable imo (talking 40-45 ppt implied for reefers that imo were beyond this kind of error (not to mention saturated water)

when the icp came in around 12 months ago initially figures didnt seem any better, again i saw sodium figures implying 40ppt plus salinity, or 3 or 4 years worth of 2 part withput water changes, when neither was true. I got into a lot of trouble on local forums for stating this, to a point now when triton is mentioned nobody actually reads what i post, i just get wild accusations flying my way

however, having seen near all icp results published, and had some done myself, i have to say it is consistent with my methods (which are pretty anal tbf) in terms of sodium sulphate etc, alterations i have made in terms of iodine strontium etc, so far are consistent.

over here in the UK i see nothing wrong, i trust it, i do bot know if things are any differant in the us

the icp i have to say, though i dont think it can tell you everything, and some of what it does tell you should be taken with a pinch of salt, is imo a great thing (though the rest of truton is still selling someyhing old as new)

[bbaz123456]

I have been slowly adding NaCl and Kcl. I can not attest to the accuracy of the triton test for the majority of the elements but the for what I can test they were spot on. Mag, cal, Po4 and now Na.
For me it was worth every penny to get the test done and I will likely get it every six months or so just for peace of mind, unless it is proven to be unreliable by somebody else.
Chances are that I would have continued on using my flawed salinity testing for many more years if I would not have had this test and you guys to help figure that out and offer advice. So thank you for your time and input!

[Eyore]

good grief, your not doing as i say over these guys are you? lol

all i say is what i would do

i would though have calculated out potassium first, which i would then back up with testing
i would also calculate out the amount of nacl first too to correct the sodium deficency (in terms of value not use) and back this up with accurate salinity readings

depending on the amount needed i would probably have built a stock solution of nacl kcl mix which i would have added over the course of a month or 2 (while testing) to atu or a bit at a time into the weir (ie a litre)

[bbaz123456]

I have actually been doing a combination of the two. I have added about 25% saltwater to my top off and been doing a slow drip of nacl and Kcl.
I have taken the suggestions from everybody into account and had to decide on my own what to do.
Of course I did not read your post and jump into your suggestion. You do sound like you know what you are talking about but I obviously do not know you or any of your credentials. For all I know you could be some 16 year old punk trying to get me to poison all of my fish! Ha
Therefore Jonathon, Randy, and Triton's recommendations carry a bit more weight, but yours also makes sense to me.
Triton suggested to dose straight Na and K(what they sell) over 7 days

[bbaz123456]

I would top off with saltwater or part saltwater, part RO/DI for a while, and let evaporation do the job. That should be more gentle on the animals. Do you have a good estimate of the water volume and the amount of evaporation per day?

I am working with the number of 2400 gallons. I have came up with anywhere from 2400-2900 but figured I should stick with the low number. My math gets a little hairy when calculating odd shaped tanks, half full rubbermaid troughs and unknown amounts of rock.
Evap has been about 13 gallons a day.

[Eyore]

I have actually been doing a combination of the two. I have added about 25% saltwater to my top off and been doing a slow drip of nacl and Kcl.
I have taken the suggestions from everybody into account and had to decide on my own what to do.
Of course I did not read your post and jump into your suggestion. You do sound like you know what you are talking about but I obviously do not know you or any of your credentials. For all I know you could be some 16 year old punk trying to get me to poison all of my fish! Ha
Therefore Jonathon, Randy, and Triton's recommendations carry a bit more weight, but yours also makes sense to me.
Triton suggested to dose straight Na and K(what they sell) over 7 days

lol 38 year old bricklayer

good to know you calculated;)

[Eyore]

roughly in the middle of those 2 figures in us gallins is 10000 litres, which is an easy figure to play with

10000 litres contains 350kg of salts
na should make up 106.4 of this but is 84.25 kg according to icp
meaning you need 22.15 kg of sodium
22.15 ÷22.99x 58.44= 56.3 kg of nacl

potassium is 110 mg/l low x 10000= 1.1kg of potassium

1.1÷ 39.1x 74.55= 2.1 kg kcl

(bit abbreviated)

edit

you can see that is a salinity rise of 5.84ppt, which is maybe about right

for me i would drip a 25l gerry can with 1kg of nacl in per day for the next 7 weeks, for the first 3 weeks i would slip 100g of kcl in as well per day

no point rushing

[bertoni]

With 13g of evaporation per day, I'd just top off with saltwater for a while, personally. No need to go less concentrated.

[ca1ore]

So, got my Triton results back today, and am pleasantly surprised that things looked pretty god, though Copper was detected (at 2.40), molybdenum deviating, and bromide and lithium strongly deviating. I use regular IO salt and RODI at TDS = 0

What's the prevailing wisdom about what to do abouth these things? I run poly filters, so I am surprised there is any copper. I does molybdenum, so perhaps that needs to stop. But bromide and lithium ...... Haven't the foggiest.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wouldn't do anything about the "usual" elevated levels of bromide and lithium that most of us see. Comes with most salt mixes, I think. :)

Your copper is also reasonably low that you may not need to act.

[ca1ore]

Right-O Randy, thanks. Was rather expecting some dodgy numbers because I have had some SPS die off of late, and for reasons that had been, and still remain, elusive.

[doctorwhoreefer]

I wouldn't do anything about the "usual" elevated levels of bromide and lithium that most of us see. Comes with most salt mixes, I think. :)

Your copper is also reasonably low that you may not need to act.

I would have to disagree.

I know you want to defend the salt you're using Randy, it is nice and cheap, but that might be the problem.

Even you've said we don't know the long term health effects of 1000-2000x elevated lithium. Sure we have some creatures in the tank but that does not take into account the millions of different species in the ocean.

This is something the Triton creator has remarked. Only the USA test results seem to have elevated lithium when compared to European salts. So far from what I've seen, only IO, RC, and esv salinity has had elevated lithium. So its not all salts.

All in all, we cannot dismiss the elevated lithium maybe negatively affecting corals and fish. Bottom line, there's not that much lithium in natural ocean water, period.

[ca1ore]

Has anyone sent a freshly mixed up sample of various salt mixes in for Triton testing?

[bertoni]

I would have to disagree.
Even you've said we don't know the long term health effects of 1000-2000x elevated lithium.
I think there was some speculation that the high lithium level in CoraLife salt was killing brittle stars, although that was a long time ago:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=774002

I'll try to do some more searching later.

[doctorwhoreefer]

Nice chart, I'll have to see if I can find some other info. Is there a way to remove the lithium? Is there any non-lethal binders we could use bertoni?

Found this while I was browsing.. :D

Lithium does not seem to pose as much of a toxicity concern as many other ions, but in three of the samples (Dow, Warner, ESV) it is greatly elevated. Over a year, each of these would add about 2 ppm lithium, or 12 times the natural level. Is that too much? I am not sure. In a prior analysis of artificial salt mixes, Craig Bingman found that two salt mixes started out with greatly elevated lithium levels (90X over natural levels for Coralife and 6X for Seachem, with the others ranging from 1.5X - 3.1X). Typical aquaria surveyed by Ron Shimek contained about 0.6 ppm of lithium (3X over natural seawater) with a range from 0.015 ppm (0.08X) - 7 ppm (39 X).

It is well known that excess lithium has significant adverse effects of the development of sea urchin embryos,1,2 and many studies have been carried out in this area. The amount of lithium used in those studies, however, is typically around 500-3,000 ppm. It has also been shown that 345 ppm of lithium will result in death of the isopod limnoria.3

So while 2 ppm lithium delivered by these samples is greatly increased over the natural levels of 0.18 ppm, it is still small compared to the hundreds of ppm required to show toxic effects. Given that gap, and the fact that the lithium levels will likely be attenuated by water changes, I conclude that the lithium in these calcium chloride samples is not an excessive risk. Nevertheless, that is something that each aquarist can decide for themselves.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/chemistry

[bertoni]

I have never heard of a way to reduce lithium other than water changes with a low-lithium product.

[Eyore]

Has anyone sent a freshly mixed up sample of various salt mixes in for Triton testing?

european reefers have done this on european salts yes

the results are quite an eye opener tbh, however you do have to take them with a pinch of salt (pardon the pun), and look at totals as well as the individual numbers

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would have to disagree.

I know you want to defend the salt you're using Randy, it is nice and cheap, but that might be the problem.

Even you've said we don't know the long term health effects of 1000-2000x elevated lithium. Sure we have some creatures in the tank but that does not take into account the millions of different species in the ocean.

This is something the Triton creator has remarked. Only the USA test results seem to have elevated lithium when compared to European salts. So far from what I've seen, only IO, RC, and esv salinity has had elevated lithium. So its not all salts.

All in all, we cannot dismiss the elevated lithium maybe negatively affecting corals and fish. Bottom line, there's not that much lithium in natural ocean water, period.

We can to some extent dismiss it as huge numbers of wonderful tanks have it. If you want a wonderful tank, we can dismiss it as a prohibiting factor. if you want a perfect tank, no we cannot dismiss it.

Could the corals do better without it? Possibly.

[Bilk]

Figured I'd add the results from my tank here.

Everything is in check except lithium and bromine, which seems to be a common result for many tests. Oh PO4 is a bit low :hmm4: I should add, I've been using ESV salt but recently switched to Tropic Marin regular. This test was done during the use of ESV solely. I'll retest in a month or two after having run with TM.


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