Auto shut off without rodi

[usmcr0811]

I know people are going to complain about me not using rodi water but i am going to give my tap water a chance first and see how things go.

I got sick of hauling a water line from my tank 75 feet across our house to my sink to do water changes so i purchased pvc fittings to go from 1/2 inch pex to 1/4 inch rodi style tubing. I am planning on getting a float shutoff valve that fits that 1/4 inch tube for an auto top off into a freshwater holding tank under my main tank then some type of auto shut off pump that will not use moving parts in the salt water tank. This should help keep salt from causing malfunctions with the float as it will always be in freshwater. Does anyone know if this will work without using the rodi system in line first. I am going to put a manual shutoff just before the tank just in case but would like this to serve as a tap water auto top off system.

[usmcr0811]

I have used tap water for about 4 years now on the same tank as a freshwater tank and have had no issues. Now its a saltwater tank.

[sleepydoc]

There are many people who successfully use tap water for their tanks; whether it will cause problems or not depends on your water supply. Fresh and salt are different, so the fact that it works for fresh water is no guarantee that it will work for salt.

If you are running ¼" tubing to your tank, you could easily have an RO/DI system under the sink with the tubing coming from that.

As to your specific setup, how are you planning on detoxifying the fresh water? You mention 'some type of auto shutoff pump that will not use moving parts.' Those don't exist. You can either use gravity with a float valve, or a pump with a float switch.

Other potential problems - what happens when the float valve in the holding tank sticks? BIG FLOOD! I would definitely have a valve in line that you control with the float as a backup.

Beyond that, I can't comment without knowing more specifics. A picture/diagram is often helpful.

[usmcr0811]

I was planning on using one of the ATO systems. The hydor smart level control auto top off uses a sensor not a float if I understand it correctly.

I was thinking I would put an overflow above the float valve that would drain into another medium size bucket with a sensor inside of it hooked up to a controller that would either send me a text message or shutoff another valve somewhere along tubing if the float stuck. I'm not sure what all my options are for that yet but know they make those sensers you can hook up to an apex controller. I am assuiming something like that exists that would just shut off a valve.

[usmcr0811]

I went with the 1/4 inch tube so I could upgrade to an RODI system sometime down the road if tap water doesn't work.

I have never had to detoxify my water before, what do I need to check for to make sure its detoxified?

[KrazyKuch]

I went with the 1/4 inch tube so I could upgrade to an RODI system sometime down the road if tap water doesn't work.

I have never had to detoxify my water before, what do I need to check for to make sure its detoxified?

you need to use achemical to detox your water...ie remove the chlorine and what not...i popular product is Prime water conditionerhttp://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=sc-prm0100

[Dapg8gt]

Yeah using tap may work /may not but using straight tap water is a major no no. You need to get all the chlorine and chloramine( if they use it) out of the water if your on city water. Well water can be a lot worse.

Do some research on tanks that use tap water and never hook a never ending supply of water to your tank if that's what your trying to do. I had a hard time following what you are trying to accomplish but if your going to run a line to the top off reservoir you would need to either do it manually with a valve( safest way just remember to turn it off) or build a few safe guards in place through automation, and even then the risk is still there for failure.

Brs just did a video on how to use the tunze switch to run an rodi to your tank.. I don't recommend it even with their configuration but it should give you some ideas on how to accomplish it.

[usmcr0811]

So basically I was going to have a storage tank under my main display for freshwater with a float shutoff in it and an overflow above the shutoff that would hopefully alert me in time to fix the failure. Then a auto top off unit would have the pump in the freshwater storage unit that would pump freshwater into the sump when it was needed.

[Dapg8gt]

If your not using rodi how are you going to treat the water thats automatically replenishing itself? You can and will kill your livestock with straight tap water. I don't see a real safe way to treat tap water effectively in your scenario. An unlimited supply of water and the word hopefully should never be in the same sentence lol. If your going to stick with your plan I'd suggest multiple sensors vs one. Water damage is a costly mistake to repair.

What you want to do is feasible with an rodi unit but it should be put on a timer so it runs for longer periods of time vs just constantly topping off minute amounts.

[usmcr0811]

Just got water quality report. Copper .598ppm chlorine 1.0ppm, nitrate 3.22, floride, .21ppm, barium .1ppm, lead 5.16 ppb

[perkint]

It is very difficult to say what levels of copper are lethal, as it depends on the form of copper and what is in your tank, but:
Ron Shimek added copper to natural seawater and looked at the effect on sea urchin larvae. He found that concentrations above 10 ppb decreased the larval survival after 48 h, and that concentrations above 100 ppb killed all of them
Taken from here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/1/chemistry

I would not use water with 5 times what he found to be lethal, and 50 times what he found to have detrimental affect on survival. And (IMO) if I've got to take steps to purify it, i may as well go the whole hog and take out as many nasties as i can (ie RO/DI).

Tim

[usmcr0811]

I do agree that RODI is probably better. Its just I have spent $300 this month on aquarium stuff before my wife found out and now I guess I am kind of grounded from spending any more on fish stuff for a while. My wife does know where I sleep and has access to sharp objects ;)

[sleepydoc]

Copper is primarily an issue for invertebrates at lower levels, at higher levels it is toxic to fish as well. If you are only going to have fish that will be less of an issue. Of course it will also preclude you from snails and other members of a cleanup crew.

The problem with switching to DI water later is that the metals can leach into your sand and rock, so simply changing water later on won't necessarily guarantee that they are gone.

The Chlorine will be an issue regardless. The nitrates may be an issue. If you do use your tap water, use a water conditioner like prime (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html) to detoxify the water first.

I get what you meant by 'without moving parts' - tunze, hydor and possible some others have non-mechanical sensors to measure water level and control a pump.

If you use this setup, whether with Tap water or RO/DI, I would put a valve in the supply line, so you could open the valve when the reservoir gets low and have the float switch cut it off if you forget about it or don't get to it in time. Either way you won't have a potentially infinite supply of water waiting to flow under your tank.

You mention an apex controller - they are very nice, but given your water characteristics, I would invest $150 in a DI filter before spending several hundred in a controller.

[usmcr0811]

Agreed. I do need the shutoff valve. I actually already bought one yesterday. I am hoping that the copper isn't an issue as I plan on having a lot of inverts. Time will tell. The APEX Controller isn't going to happen right away anyways. Would need to save up a bit and get off the naughty list with my wife first.

[perkint]

Personally, I'd wait. If you use tap water and find it is an issue, swapping to RODI at a later stage will not help as the metals will already be in your tank - as said by sleepydoc, your rock and sand will be contaminated and need replacing. That makes it an expensive fix. I would wait a month or two (or however long) until i could get the RO unit, rather than risking having to completely strip down and start again with new rock, substrate, stock, etc.

Tim

[usmcr0811]

My tank has been running as a freshwater tank for 4 or 5 years with the tapwater already so that issue is already thers if there is one and I already switched and already have fish and snails.

[fishgate]

I was planning on using one of the ATO systems. The hydor smart level control auto top off uses a sensor not a float if I understand it correctly.

Think twice about that hydor unit. It gets horrible reviews. I was going to buy it too until I read them. I am getting the JBJ instead.

[mcgyvr]

Nothing like setting yourself up for failure..

[usmcr0811]

There is always one to make a stupid comment. How is that going to help where I am. If it doesn't work I will just start over. What else am I supposed to do at this point?

[Dapg8gt]

Do it right is what you should do, it's not an emergency in so you absolutely need to have your reservoir automatically fill up with tap water not treated.. I would run the hose and install a valve, manually fill it every few days, use prime and repeat( and that's the easiest way it's going to safely work, but still not good because it's tap fwiw)

Fwiw that's not a stupid comment it's the truth if you like it or not. Others and I already told you what can and will happen but yet you decide to move forward and go with your plan.

What happens when it fails? Your just going to start over? is thousands of dollars in water damage saving any money? I don't think so personally, and getting a water report to see if you can use Un treated tap water is basically like he said setting yourself up for failure. There is not any wiggle room it can not be done plain and simple.. You need to DECHLORINATE and take your chance with tap or buy an rodi if you want to run your system the way you want. Then the whole failure thing is still there as when/if it fails it's not going to be cheap like it or not the advice is basically reality and experience from other failures. Search and you shall find .. Think you wife is mad now lol..

[usmcr0811]

I agree about not setting everything up without a valve and doing it every few days. I had decided that at the beginning of the post. I agree I should use prime or RODI. Just because I don't use RODI doesn't mean I'm setting myself up for failure.

I have read lots of posts in here about success with tap water. And I had success with fresh water.

What I am saying is that I have spent $40 on fish, snails, and crabs at this point. That is all I would loose if the water isnt up to par. Im not going to loose my pumps or my sump or any other equipment I have purchased. The sand and rock was already in my tank from 4 years ago so if it has copper in it RODI won't fix it now and I was planning on replacing most of it eventually anyways with some larger rock. I agree if I set it up for auto shut off, that is setting myself up for failure and I would probably not have a wife anymore.

I didn't decide to move forward with my plan, after I posted in here...I already had everything set up as the people at the LFS didn't tell me I needed to check for copper or chlorine before I set it up. I even asked them what test kit I needed and told them I was useing tap water. It has been set up for close to a month before I posted here.

For what its worth when I commented I just finished working a 20 hour double shift at work and didnt see anything productive about the post. But there is some truth to the setting yourself up for failure post if you are refering to the auto shut off or didnt test for what you needed to thanks to my LFS. But if their is copper in the water there is not much an rodi unit is going to do to fix that now.

Thanks for the info appreciate all the opinions.

[perkint]

What rock are you using? Are you using rock as biological filtration (as is normal in reef tanks)?

Tim

[usmcr0811]

I just have around 15 small fist size stones. Really should get something more porous. Also have 3 large plastic rocks. I know I need to get them switched with something more porous someday but that's what I have for now. I have two clown and a striped damsel in a 125 gallon. Not going to add any more fish until after I get the rock switched out.

[usmcr0811]

Also am working on building a sump that will someday house filration. Justed tested my tank for Copper and there is no signs of copper in the tank.

[sleepydoc]

Just an FYI - the lower threshold for most Cu test kits is still above the toxic level for inverts. The test kits are usually designed to test therapeutic levels for treating fish for ich.

Not detecting Cu is good, but probably doesn't tell you much.

[usmcr0811]

Ok good to know. Is there a way to find out if my tank is full of copper then or do I just have to wait it out now that they are already in the tank. Had I known all this from the start I probably would have got all new sand and rock to begin with.

Also how long would it take to kill my snails if there is a copper issue?

[usmcr0811]

Got my line run and set up on a shut off valve. I got plenty extra 1/4 inch line so hopefully in a week or two I can hook the whole system up to an RODI system. Guess it depends if I can get the wife talked I to it that soon but I have everything I need now and its just a matter of hooking up a couple of quick connect fittings.

[perkint]

I would think you'd see an affect within a week or so, but I'm not sure.

You definitely need to add proper (porous) live rock if you want it to be the biological media, as, from what you say, the rock you have will be offering next to no filtration benefit.

Also, if it is live rock you will be using, be careful trying to run it in a sump. Live rock needs dramatically more flow to work properly, than most people have in their sumps.

Tim

[usmcr0811]

Sorry I didn't mention I actually also have two emperor 400's (HOB filters) one on each side of my tank so its not just crappy live rock I have. Didnt realize that about the flow. Will be putting all the live rock in my display then.

Either way I really need to get some real live rock as soon as possible.

[zachts]

Just an FYI - the lower threshold for most Cu test kits is still above the toxic level for inverts. The test kits are usually designed to test therapeutic levels for treating fish for ich.

Not detecting Cu is good, but probably doesn't tell you much.

Indeed! the copper absorbed by your water running thru any copper piping along the way to your tank will likely be enough to make keeping inverts difficult if not impossible long term. fish would be fine and a few of the tougher corals may tolerate it but over all it's not a good thing.

An RO or RO/DI unit is not very expensive and will save you lots of headache down the road not just from removing copper but even in the cleanest of water supplies you'll have nitrate, phosphates and other nutrients in levels higher than are good and that will promote lots of nuisance algea in most tanks. Just my two cents.

[Dapg8gt]

I agree about not setting everything up without a valve and doing it every few days. I had decided that at the beginning of the post. I agree I should use prime or RODI. Just because I don't use RODI doesn't mean I'm setting myself up for failure.

I have read lots of posts in here about success with tap water. And I had success with fresh water.

What I am saying is that I have spent $40 on fish, snails, and crabs at this point. That is all I would loose if the water isnt up to par. Im not going to loose my pumps or my sump or any other equipment I have purchased. The sand and rock was already in my tank from 4 years ago so if it has copper in it RODI won't fix it now and I was planning on replacing most of it eventually anyways with some larger rock. I agree if I set it up for auto shut off, that is setting myself up for failure and I would probably not have a wife anymore.

I didn't decide to move forward with my plan, after I posted in here...I already had everything set up as the people at the LFS didn't tell me I needed to check for copper or chlorine before I set it up. I even asked them what test kit I needed and told them I was useing tap water. It has been set up for close to a month before I posted here.

For what its worth when I commented I just finished working a 20 hour double shift at work and didnt see anything productive about the post. But there is some truth to the setting yourself up for failure post if you are refering to the auto shut off or didnt test for what you needed to thanks to my LFS. But if their is copper in the water there is not much an rodi unit is going to do to fix that now.

Thanks for the info appreciate all the opinions.
It's better that you asked here vs just doing it =).. It's hard to get an idea that in the mind of the person is all good shot down by multiple people so I personally didn't get offended or anything as its human nature to defend your ideas and try to make things work.. I was more posting on the topic of the never ending supply Un treated tap water into the Ato vs using tap in general fwiw..

There is successful tanks using tap water but also tons of threads where Reefers are dealing with years of leaching rocks and sand from initially starting with tap water causing total rebuilds.. I'll admit I used tap water for the first 4 years and really didn't notice anything negative but I am fed some of the cleanest water in California where I live.. Tap works for some but not for all and it's undeniable that a properly set up rodi is really one of the most important things for the longevity of the life you are taking care of in your slice of the ocean.

Decent rodi units can be had for great deals I ran a water general (rd102 I think) I bought on eBay for about 2 years that I sold to a friend that is still using it multiple years later. I think new they are like $120 or something.. Now I use an expensive unit (spectrapure) just because I realised I wanted the best possible water I could provide but that's not saying I wouldn't have just as nice a tank with my original unit still running. You can also get refurbished spectrapure units fairly cheap when you decide to start looking.

[usmcr0811]

Well the shutoff valve is working awesome. Saves me like 10 min that I used to waste getting out a 75 foot hose and dragging it through the house then draining it, rolling it back up, and putting it back away!

I am going to get the RODI set up as soon as possible. Less phosphates and fewer algae blooms make it worth it I think.