Tank Turn Over with Ocean Water

[Kharn]

Hello

Hope I post this in the right area but it does seem like a rather chemical related question...

I have the opportunity to build a system literally "meters" from the ocean where the water out front is very clean and lays host to countless SPS corals and fish etc.

My question is I want to run the system off the ocean basically by pumping the water from the sea out front through a simple filter system then into the tank(s) I have planned.

However in such a system my plan was to have no filtration except for the minor mechanical filtration between ocean to tank (swapped/cleaned daily) and then actual powerheads in the tank for flow (sunlight is the light).

But my main point is this, how many times per day would it be smart to have the pump running from ocean to tank, how many times should the water volume be turned over daily, if at each turn over it is fresh new reef water?

[twon8]

As many times as you can would be best, then you don't have to worry about alk/ca levels dropping

[Kharn]

As many times as you can would be best, then you don't have to worry about alk/ca levels dropping

The general theory I'm rolling with so far is 1/4 system volume per hour.

[bertoni]

That's an interesting question, but I don't know the answer. One parameter to consider is the volume of fish in the system. They will produce a lot more ammonia in the water column than most other animals we tend to keep. ¼ of the system volume per hour sounds like a great starting point, and I'd be surprised if you needed more than that, but I could easily be wrong.

[bbaz123456]

I don't know the answer either, but would it be that hard to just run a small pump constantly and overflow right back? A 150 gph pump would only cost pennies to run...although I am not sure how much head pressure you would have, or what size tank you plan on having. IMO you would be better off with a smaller pump that runs constantly than a larger one that would cycle on and off.

[billsreef]

With some filtration on the tank, I'd suggest around 10% per day. Without, I'd looking at least 7 times total system volume per day. IMO a filter system that can be self sustaining without any water exchange would be ideal, as that way your tank will fine if your SW system fails for any reason. Give you a bit of breathing room to deal with those inevitable problems, and you can still have the benefits of substantial NSW water flow.

[Reefvet]

Besides water what's going to be in the tank ?

[Reefvet]

Oh and one more question. How far are you from any source of agricultural runoff ?

[ichthyogeek]

Umm...just to point this out, but aren't you worried about disease? Here in the states, a lot of the big stores sell their fish in bags that specifically say not to release into the wild. There's a pleco problem in Florida, and Lionfish in the Gulf. People catch Pacu seasonally. Disease organisms would be constantly flowing in and out, both introduced into the tank by the fish and inverts you plan on adding, and from the ocean itself...Not to mention the live rock. Unless you plan on using only fish, live rock, and inverts that you collect from this area around you. Then it sounds fine.

How would you deal with evaporation, as well as the initial water filling? Would you be filling the tank with synthetic seawater? Or natural water from the sea?

Also, how would you medicate this tank? By replacing the water with natural seawater, you would be adding medicine to the environment, which could adversely affect the surrounding wildlife.

[nemodan]

Some years ago I saw in a TV program a house in Hawaii built nearby a cliff. The owner was pumping 24/7 water from the ocean to a gigantic tank in the basement. The water was returning by a small artificial canal built from the house to the cliff. It was just going back to ocean by gravity, not pumped.

The tank was like the ones in public aquariums with literally a couple hundred tropical fish from the area. Lots of yellow Tangs, for example.

The owner explained that due to the continue circulation of the water he was able to keep such bioload.

The pump was far away from the cliff, to pump clean water.

The tank was part of the house, not a classical glass Box. The pump was working all day and he has some backup system, but can't remember now.

[billsreef]

Icthyogeek raises some important points that I didn't think to get into last night.

On the effluent side, what are you planning on doing with all that waste water? If you only keep locally collected livestock (including any live rock and sand), than you'll be alright with just discharge back in the sea (check on any local permitting requirements, usually necessary for discharge most places...sometimes also for the intake). If you keep anything purchased from an LFS, than absolutely no discharge to the sea without a well maintained and very good sterilization system on the effluent to prevent any introductions of pathogens or other species from elsewhere.

The intake side also has it's issues. Raw water (what we call the SW direct from the ocean without filtration) will be loaded with plankton...both good and bad. This can introduce disease organsims, as well as larval stages of predators such as crabs. This also will bring in phytoplankton, copepods and other beneficial organisms. Bit of dice rolling going on with raw water. Filtering down to 10 microns will remove most of the larger stuff such as crab zoea, but still leave phytoplankton and various protozoans, including disease causing protozoans. Using a sand filter to get the large stuff, follow with a 5 micron cartridge filter and large UV will give you well filter sterile water...though any lapse in maintenance of the filtration can let some surprises through on occasion. You really need to weigh the pros and cons. Also do your SW plumbing such that you can readily run a "pig" through the piping to clean it out of fouling organisms...you will get barnacles, clams and such growing in the plumbing ;) A few more things to consider, but this is likely enough for now.

[CuzzA]

On my newest build I will be using NSW. My plan is to collect water once a month at one of my local passes at the incoming/high tide during the middle of the week (less boats/people) while remaining conscience of rain, etc. I'll pump the water through a 10 micron filter bag into a 100 gallon poly transport container and then transfer it to a stationary storage container for filtration. This tank will be as closed as tight as possible to reduce evaporation, yet still be able to vent. The filtration will be 1 Magnum 350 filter. This filter is unique in that ALL the water that goes through it is filtered. There is no bypass. Because of this design I'll be able to use DE powder in conjunction with the cartridge filter which will filter down to 1 micron. I'll run this for 24 hours before removing the DE powder. This filter also allows the use of carbon concurrently with the other filter. So 2 birds with 1 stone. I'll replace the carbon with every collection.

Finally, I have an Emperor Aquatics 80w High Output UV. This will run 24/7 with the intake water coming directly from the Magnum filter. Also I will set up my auto water changer (3 gallons per day) so that a solenoid will open off the UV and replace the 3 gallons removed from a separate pump. I'll use my current Apex conductivity probe to monitor the salinity in the container and top off manually if needed.

I know this is a little different than what you doing, however, you can get the idea of the lengths I'm going to go to to insure that the water entering my system is pure, clean saltwater. Most public Aquariums near a coast that use NSW filter the water before letting it come into contact with their systems.

[Bilk]

I believe some public aquariums use water directly pumped from local waters. However I also believe this water passes through a diatom filter before being introduced to the system tanks, to prevent introduction of unwanted organisms.

This idea of yours would at first appear to be ideal, but as Bill already pointed out, if there was an issue with the water change pumps, there would be a problem in the tank. Adding some live rock to the sump and or tank would certainly give you time to get it functioning again and having a reserve reservoir is probably prudent.

[polleke]

Well if acros grow in that same water it should be fine for anything you want to keep indeed.

What was mentioned already is imo more important. Are you going to introduce non native species (fish, coral, algae, inverts, live rock) to your tank? I would be extremely careful with the return water. Definitely not just pour back into the ocean.

[Kharn]

Sorry for asking and ditching I lost / forgot about the thread but the question remains important to me and I highly appreciate the responses.

Everything in the tanks is going to be locally caught and everything to do with the tanks is going to be locally made, I do not have the luxury of "LFS" where I am located...O_O! (as in nothing would make the journey from any "close" LFS/Airport), so it MUST be local in that sense.

Everything I want to keep I have seen in the water that I intend to use.

As of right now I am more inclined to go the simplest route possible and work up from there, specifically when it comes to filtration & lighting.

"Biggest" case scenario I'll be looking at possible 13 tanks total.

5 @ 2000mm L x 1000mm W x 500mm H @ 1000L each (SPS, LPS, POLYP, FISH, INVERT).
4 @ 2000mm L x 300mm W x 900mm H @ 200L each (Stomatopods).
4 @ 2000mm L x 450mm W x 600mm H @ 300L each (Stomatopods).
7000L Total

From what I have gathered 'math' wise I figured off the total volumes the following total turn over figures @ LPM&LPH (liters per minute & liters per hour).

7000L Total - RED indicates likely choice.
(@x100 24hrs CONSTANT)
700,000L over 24hrs = 29,166.666lph
700,000L over 1,440mins = 486.11lpm

(@x50 24hrs CONSTANT)
350,000L over 24hrs = 14,583.333lph
350,000L over 1,440mins = 243.055lpm

(@x10 24hrs CONSTANT)
70,000L over 24hrs = 2,916.666lph
70,000L over 1,440mins = 48.611lpm

(@x5 24hrs CONSTANT)
35,000L over 24hrs = 1,458.333lph
35,000L over 1,440mins = 24.305lpm

(@x1 24hrs CONSTANT)
7,000L over 24hrs = 0.291lph
7,000L over 1,440mins = 4.861lpm

The general idea was to utilize the ocean as much as possible due to its sheer proximity and well it being the ocean along with the bounty of already living marine life 2-3mtrs off the beach itself.

Commercial, Agriculture all that stuff is none existent, the neighbors are a tribe lol... however the only thing that does turn the water bad is heavy rain fall and it can turn the water a muddy brown for "X" hours, depending how often it rains (this is what freaks me out the most).

[Kharn]

Filtration planned FOR STARTERS (which I will diverse off from there if required), is going to be a simple (but checked bi/tri+ daily) dual filter sock system, where fresh ocean water first passes a larger micron sock before passing through a small micron sock, before finally entering the tank, again these socks will be checked bi/tri+ daily with more then enough ready on hand fresh, idea for them is simple, 2 in use, 2 in cleaning/drying, 2 clean/dry/ready and 2 spare all of each size.

[Kharn]

There will always be flow within the tanks 24/7 (whether turnover water or same water), this will be achieved through powerhead/wavemakers, I'm looking into the Gyrespect XF170 for the 5x1000L uniform tanks.

All I'm trying to do is nail down the best 'ocean' pump for both system & wallet. =)

[billsreef]

however the only thing that does turn the water bad is heavy rain fall and it can turn the water a muddy brown for "X" hours, depending how often it rains (this is what freaks me out the most).

Two ways to deal with this that I would recommend, both involve turning off your raw water system. One, large back up water storage reservoir to provide clean water while your waiting for that worst of the storm muck to clear. Two, filtered tanks that will be adequate to run without water exchange for long enough for the water to clear enough.

Filtration planned FOR STARTERS (which I will diverse off from there if required), is going to be a simple (but checked bi/tri+ daily) dual filter sock system, where fresh ocean water first passes a larger micron sock before passing through a small micron sock, before finally entering the tank, again these socks will be checked bi/tri+ daily with more then enough ready on hand fresh, idea for them is simple, 2 in use, 2 in cleaning/drying, 2 clean/dry/ready and 2 spare all of each size.

The first set of sock filters are going to be high maintenance. I'd suggest running a swimming pool style sand filter as the initial filter. Maintenance is a simple backflush, as opposed to cleaning/replacing filter socks frequently.


All I'm trying to do is nail down the best 'ocean' pump for both system & wallet. =)

You need to consider how much suction lift you need, as well as head pressure to work your needed pump size. Suction being the real critical one, pumps just don't like to pull well. So the closer to the water source, both in distance and height, the cheaper the pump you'll be able to use.

[FraggledRock]

SO basically he is collecting wild fish and Wild corals?

Has it not dawned on anybody that this may be a conflicting decision in regards to this thread?:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2476256

I know it would just make sense to go dive grab some corals and fish and put them in a tank.

BUTTT isnt that the reason "conversationalists" are pushing the intended bans and laws against aquaculturing/coral farming in preserving the reefs? to prevent humans from going into the wild and scooping out whatever they want?

[woodnaquanut]

SO basically he is collecting wild fish and Wild corals?

Has it not dawned on anybody that this may be a conflicting decision in regards to this thread?:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2476256

I know it would just make sense to go dive grab some corals and fish and put them in a tank.

BUTTT isnt that the reason "conversationalists" are pushing the intended bans and laws against aquaculturing/coral farming in preserving the reefs? to prevent humans from going into the wild and scooping out whatever they want?

I'm guessing you meant conSERvation. :)

Since the OP is in the land of OZ, our U.S. laws have no effect. I don't see how this is on topic to the OPs questions about flow and possible system setup.

[shermanator]

BUTTT isnt that the reason "conversationalists" are pushing the intended bans and laws against aquaculturing/coral farming in preserving the reefs?

I wouldn't worry about conversationalists. They are all talk.

[billsreef]

SO basically he is collecting wild fish and Wild corals?

Has it not dawned on anybody that this may be a conflicting decision in regards to this thread?:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2476256

I know it would just make sense to go dive grab some corals and fish and put them in a tank.

BUTTT isnt that the reason "conversationalists" are pushing the intended bans and laws against aquaculturing/coral farming in preserving the reefs? to prevent humans from going into the wild and scooping out whatever they want?

Most places have regulations covering what can and can't be collected, and from where. Australia is no exception. I'm sure the OP will follow his local regulations.

[Kharn]

Two ways to deal with this that I would recommend, both involve turning off your raw water system. One, large back up water storage reservoir to provide clean water while your waiting for that worst of the storm muck to clear. Two, filtered tanks that will be adequate to run without water exchange for long enough for the water to clear enough.

In the beginning I want to start out as simple as possible since electricity itself is rather a privilege in this location, so I was hoping to dumb it down and see how just basically the large ocean to tank pump with in tank powerhead wavemakers would go along with the filter socks.

It's not uncommon to get daily blackouts/power loss, between 1min-4hrs, same goes with internet cause it is wifi and bounces off like 50 towers before reaching my location.

The backup water tower is certainly something that I have considered however my concerns lay in the simple fact that all up there is 7,000L in the tanks and if I need to rely on that tower for 2-3days well I just don't know how big it should be or what sort of output to tanks I would need during that 2-3day period of feeding new water to the tanks from the reserve.

The first set of sock filters are going to be high maintenance. I'd suggest running a swimming pool style sand filter as the initial filter. Maintenance is a simple backflush, as opposed to cleaning/replacing filter socks frequently.

Again this all relates back to the whole electricity problem...having said that I won't let it prevent me at least not before I do some math to see what things like this would chew...

You need to consider how much suction lift you need, as well as head pressure to work your needed pump size. Suction being the real critical one, pumps just don't like to pull well. So the closer to the water source, both in distance and height, the cheaper the pump you'll be able to use.

I'd say all up we would be looking at an absolute complete max of 20m from siphon point in ocean to the reserve/tanks.

[Kharn]

This is a completely lawful act and completely regulated and sustainable.

Simply put I wouldn't be doing what I plan to do if it were NOT sustainable...

[dkeller_nc]

I'd say all up we would be looking at an absolute complete max of 20m from siphon point in ocean to the reserve/tanks.

If you mean a 20m water level discrepancy from sea level to your tanks, this is going to be a challenge. The typical centrifugal pumps that are commonly sold for aquariums, pool circulation, etc... cannot handle that sort of suction pressure - the pumps will cavitate and quickly destroy themselves.

My guess is that you'd have to construct some sort of protected pool that's open to water exchange from the sea, and place your pump in close proximity to this pool so there's very little suction head.

Personally, if I had this opportunity I wouldn't filter the water at all except maybe in the coarsest sense (i.e., a "lumps and chunks" filter). Many of us that go to great lengths to add plankton substitutes to our tanks would be quite jealous of this sort of chance to maintain a tank that's really a small slice of the ocean. Just one aspect would be fascinating - maintaining species that are a pipe dream for those of us that rely on ASW - like basket stars, non-photosynthetic clams, difficult to maintain gorgonians, etc...

[Kharn]

If you mean a 20m water level discrepancy from sea level to your tanks, this is going to be a challenge. The typical centrifugal pumps that are commonly sold for aquariums, pool circulation, etc... cannot handle that sort of suction pressure - the pumps will cavitate and quickly destroy themselves.

My guess is that you'd have to construct some sort of protected pool that's open to water exchange from the sea, and place your pump in close proximity to this pool so there's very little suction head.

Personally, if I had this opportunity I wouldn't filter the water at all except maybe in the coarsest sense (i.e., a "lumps and chunks" filter). Many of us that go to great lengths to add plankton substitutes to our tanks would be quite jealous of this sort of chance to maintain a tank that's really a small slice of the ocean. Just one aspect would be fascinating - maintaining species that are a pipe dream for those of us that rely on ASW - like basket stars, non-photosynthetic clams, difficult to maintain gorgonians, etc...

Oh yeah my bad I mean something more like around 5m absolute MAX "suction".

I can set the pump up quite close to the water so that the pump could say suck water up from a 3m depth and along a 5m horizontal then after that the water goes into a reservoir Xm away/high.

[Kharn]

Guesstimation of overall horizontal & vertical distances.

I can place the pump quite close to the water (literally just on the max oceanic recorded wave height ever known for the area) and build it in sort of well protected weather proof manner, I see that the deeper I can siphon the water from the better that water will be because the diversity grows the further out/deeper you get, currently the 3m depth mark is quite bountiful of diversity but I have seen from that distance deeper and it's even more diverse etc.

Also the nasty stuff from the rain really seems to hang to the shallows, so another encouraging reason to siphon from as deep as I can.

http://i.imgur.com/Y3ZezFMl.jpg

[Kharn]

I'm not well versed with these mega pumps...

As I mentioned above I can get the pump as close to the water as I want but depending on the size of the reservoir, I might have to put that somewhere else not exactly beside the pump/near it say another 10m back behind it & raised up say 3m high as well

This will keep the pump close to the water source it is siphoning from and the reservoir close to the tanks it would fill / need to fill in emergencies.

So an absolute max of 7m vertical & 20m horizontal...

[dkeller_nc]

Keep in mind that what's important here is the vertical distance between sea level and the pump, not the depth of the pick-up line in the ocean.

What you need for an application like this is a self-priming pump. Here's (http://www.iwakiamerica.com/products/SMX.htm) some examples. Note that these pumps have a maximum "dry lift" suction capacity of 13 feet, or about 4 meters. This is why I'm suggesting that you'd ideally want to build what amounts to a saltwater pool connected to the ocean by a pipe or a trough, where the water level in the pool is replenished by the sea by gravity alone.

That would allow you to locate the pump just above maximum tide level, but still protected from storms or waves. Rather obviously you'd have to check with local authorities about something like this - in the US altering the shoreline, even minimally, requires permits.

[Kharn]

Keep in mind that what's important here is the vertical distance between sea level and the pump, not the depth of the pick-up line in the ocean.

So what your saying here is if I had the pump say, "next" to the ocean literally 2-3m away from it, then the line that is actually in the ocean can be as long as I want it to be ?

Cause that's a really good thing.... lol

Right now I'm working as basic as I can so a sort of tidal pool ain't gonna happen (might in the long run).

I'm just trying to work out what sort of tank turn over I need at the moment for basically "everything" a general ball park figure (can easily tweak say the polyp tank down and the SPS tank up after all is setup and running).

But figuring out tank turn over equates to figuring out what pump I need in general.

If I can cost effectively run a pump 24/7 I will be very happy as that is the aim and hopefully outcome but I don't know if it's possible.

[Kharn]

Those self priming pumps look good and even the smallest one looks like it might handle what I need done, if not that then surely the one below it with nearly twice the head.

http://i.imgur.com/tLjWkJkl.jpg

Need to be conscious about the wattage usage for anything that runs 24/7 and if I can get the water running and turning over daily 24/7 I can see that as a good thing for sort of lowering the cost of spending on other electronic things besides actual powerheads for the tanks themselves.

[dkeller_nc]

There's no question that setting up and running a system like this is going to consume more power than a stand-alone reef tank because of pumping costs. For the pump you've highlighted, it'll consume about 400 watts. Where I live, power is about $0.10 USD/kw, so a 400 watt pump 24/7 will cost about $30 USD per month.

Since the pump will supply about 1500 gph (probably about 750 - 1000 gph after head losses), I would think that would be enough to supply a display tank of at least 250 gallons, perhaps more.

[CuzzA]

Out of curiosity can you post a picture of the area you're describing?

[billsreef]

When spec'ing out pumps, don't forget to look at the performance curves. The spec sheets are somewhat disingenuous in that the max capacity listed is at 0 head, and max head is the point just before the pump can't lift anymore...even a dribble. The performance curves will give you an idea of how much flow you can expect for a given head...which includes both height, pipe friction, and back pressure of any filtration. On the suction side, yes, you only need to calculate from the sea surface...any piping below that is fed by water pressure ;)

[wolfblue]

You need to calculate this one all the way out. Its not hard, you can learn it on the net. Your going to have two calculations, min and max values for "Total Dynamic head", because your "Static Lift" will be different at lowest expected tide and highest expected. You'll have two numbers in feet or meters that you will use when you look at pump curves. Like Bill said, that 35 GPM Iwaki does 23 GPM or so at 7 meters. That's a one inch pump so all your plumbing will be 1.5" or even better as 2" to keep velocity and "Friction Head" (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-pipes-friction-loss-d_802.html) down. You want 3-5 foot per second or even less.

[Kharn]

If you mean a 20m water level discrepancy from sea level to your tanks, this is going to be a challenge. The typical centrifugal pumps that are commonly sold for aquariums, pool circulation, etc... cannot handle that sort of suction pressure - the pumps will cavitate and quickly destroy themselves.

My guess is that you'd have to construct some sort of protected pool that's open to water exchange from the sea, and place your pump in close proximity to this pool so there's very little suction head.

Personally, if I had this opportunity I wouldn't filter the water at all except maybe in the coarsest sense (i.e., a "lumps and chunks" filter). Many of us that go to great lengths to add plankton substitutes to our tanks would be quite jealous of this sort of chance to maintain a tank that's really a small slice of the ocean. Just one aspect would be fascinating - maintaining species that are a pipe dream for those of us that rely on ASW - like basket stars, non-photosynthetic clams, difficult to maintain gorgonians, etc...

No no, the place where the tanks are situated are not 20m above sea level (maybe 20m back from the actual beach itself is what I meant), I'd say more between 2-3m max overall sea lvl to highest vertical point, provided the pump is going directly to the tanks and not some raised water reservoir, then that would may be around 4-5m of sea lvl to highest vertical point at water reservoir.

The stocking of filter feeders and leathers out the front is utterly astounding and not just that either...I found like a tight ring of leathers/filters and in its center and acro colony!

Weird in my view....but all the more encouraging it's really a massive blind swing on my end cause I am getting people like yourself who say minimal to no filtration and others turn around and say maximum to more then normal filtration to combat pests etc. as if it's a worse idea altogether to use ocean water flow through system...so It leaves me a little stumped.

I know Stomatopods and their care and requirements lol =D

[Kharn]

I am going to start off simple (which is logical to me) so only 'the' pump and powerheads in each tank, the stomatopod tanks do not need light and I'm going to use the sun for other tanks with corals, the other tanks with corals are being split up into groups for each tank so like only SPS in 1 and only LPS in another etc. etc. this way as I see how things progress I can cover certain tanks with screens to block some light (I suspect for the LPS and lower, maybe even the SPS won't be able to take the sun), all I hope is that this is the case cause its easier to block out some light then to make it even brighter...

[Kharn]

Out of curiosity can you post a picture of the area you're describing?

Here are 2 collages I quickly put together of the photos I took whilst over there unfortunately I only had the GoPro and all the photos are stills taken out of the videos I took cause taking photos with the GoPro was very difficult underwater.

I just played the video hit the screen shot button on the laptop then past it in paint to make a "photo" of the clearest point in the short video I took of whatever I was hovering over.

http://i.imgur.com/QCQbpf4l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/acGRHnIl.jpg

Pretty crazy stuff out there these are just some of the pics :D lots of diversity!

EDIT: The gorgonian is a tri color and a monster bigger then a hatchback car!

[Kharn]

I'm heading back to my new place for a long stint in 1 month but for 2-3months whilst I am there I will be posting a lot about the land, the water, the distances & heights that I am working with and most importantly my resources.

[CuzzA]

Very cool Kharn! Man, what I would give to have that in my backyard.

[pscott99]

Gawd just go diving every day ! Great pics following for sure. Keeping anything clean and not clogged in the open ocean will be a challenge I would think. Not only the movement of sand but the growth of coral over the pump housing. My first thoughts.