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View Full Version : Why I advocate TTM first for all new fish


snorvich
01/24/2015, 09:02 AM
Ich does not have to have visible symptoms in order to be present. So, to absolutely insure you are not introducing ich to your tank, the tank transfer method is the easiest way of doing so.

Tank transfer eliminates ich from the equation:
+ Eliminates ich by disrupting the life cycle
+ Requires 4 or more transfer cycles of less than 72 hours. So 3x3x3x3 or 2x2x2x2x2x2 are equally effective
+ Needs a total of 12 days
+ Requires that each new cycle start with a totally dry tank
+ Allows Prime to be used to eliminate ammonia problems
+ If the specific gravity of the water in the tank transfer process is adjusted to the specific gravity of the transport water, only temperature acclimation is require
+ Easiest way to transfer fish for each cycle is with a square colander

However, tank transfer only eliminates ich and does not affect any other parasite. As such I recommend Prazipro on the second and fourth cycles of tank transfer.

With the number of LFS running a low level of copper in their systems, I strongly recommend at least 4 weeks of observation beyond tank transfer in a cycled quarantine tank:

+ This allows any other parasite to visibly present (since low level of copper masks other parasites
+ It allows the new fish to eat vigorously with no competition

Nina51
01/24/2015, 09:49 AM
taking your advice when i upgraded, steve, i set up a qt tank and used ttm/observation any time i have introduced a new fish. it has been flawless for me. while ttm was intimidating at first, once i used it, it was a snap.

thanks for all of your great advice. i've said it before...my success with this tank is largely due to your input! :)

rffanat1c
01/24/2015, 09:53 AM
+1, I was afraid of doing this after reading tons of other threads. Once I read Steve's threads and his simple language, I am no longer afraid to give this a shot.

Deinonych
01/24/2015, 10:06 AM
+2

TTM is the best method for eliminating Cryptocaryon since it targets the most predictable phase of the life cycle.

zeebies
01/24/2015, 10:16 AM
All my incoming fish look forward to TTM::bounce1:

Craigdillman
01/24/2015, 12:29 PM
So easy been doing it ever since my ich out break over.a Year ago, also what I do is use tank water for the qt tank water and my main gets 4 new waterchanges that 14 days and when im adding the fish to my main at the end of it all, they are ready to go it

snorvich
01/24/2015, 12:55 PM
So easy been doing it ever since my ich out break over.a Year ago, also what I do is use tank water for the qt tank water and my main gets 4 new waterchanges that 14 days and when im adding the fish to my main at the end of it all, they are ready to go it

Very clever. Never thought about doing that!! :love2:

laga77
01/24/2015, 01:32 PM
If two fish are bought at the same time can the TTM be effective for both at the same time?

Nina51
01/24/2015, 02:03 PM
i don't see why you couldn't, as long as they aren't huge fish. i have only ever bought 1 fish at a time so that's my only experience with ttm.

TitanCi
01/24/2015, 02:54 PM
+1000000000000.78654

This method works. I actually read about it in the 1985 study in Israel last night, so it's proven. My fish thank Steves effort for advocating it.

snorvich
01/24/2015, 02:55 PM
If two fish are bought at the same time can the TTM be effective for both at the same time?

Sure. I would not put two large fish in a small tank for long, however.

laga77
01/24/2015, 05:55 PM
Thanks, I got a good deal on a flame angel and a golden headed sleeper. They are in a 30 gal QT tank now and I am getting a second 30 gal tomorrow.

snorvich
01/24/2015, 06:29 PM
Thanks, I got a good deal on a flame angel and a golden headed sleeper. They are in a 30 gal QT tank now and I am getting a second 30 gal tomorrow.

No need to fill the tank all the way. Most people use 10 gallon tanks for this sized fish.

jeffdenney
01/26/2015, 09:33 AM
Going to pick up two ten gallon tanks tonight.. i have two weeks until my 3 month fallow is up, thanks to ich on my first fish... u live and learn.. i think i will b getting very familiar with ttm..

Im gonna use tank water also and get some free water changes!!

snorvich
01/26/2015, 10:39 AM
Going to pick up two ten gallon tanks tonight.. i have two weeks until my 3 month fallow is up, thanks to ich on my first fish... u live and learn.. i think i will b getting very familiar with ttm..

Im gonna use tank water also and get some free water changes!!

Do not use tank water from a tank that is being kept fallow; but after the fallow period is up, it should be fine.

ThRoewer
01/26/2015, 02:12 PM
I see no problem in using tank water if it is properly disinfected.
I have currently some fish in hyposalinity for Ich treatment. For water changes I take water from the main tank and boil it. Then I adjust salinity and temperature by adding RO water and ice - works perfectly fine. And the corals in my main tank need the fresh water more than the fish.

I would also do TTM under hyposaline conditions, firstly to reduce stress and strengthen the fish's immune system and secondly to reduce costs.

And hyposalinity is recommended for copper or antibiotic treatments too. Especially copper treatments should be done at reduced salinity since copper severely reduces the fish's immune defenses.

Dmorty217
01/26/2015, 03:08 PM
I see no problem in using tank water if it is properly disinfected.
I have currently some fish in hyposalinity for Ich treatment. For water changes I take water from the main tank and boil it. Then I adjust salinity and temperature by adding RO water and ice - works perfectly fine. And the corals in my main tank need the fresh water more than the fish.

I would also do TTM under hyposaline conditions, firstly to reduce stress and strengthen the fish's immune system and secondly to reduce costs.

And hyposalinity is recommended for copper or antibiotic treatments too. Especially copper treatments should be done at reduced salinity since copper severely reduces the fish's immune defenses.

DON'T use fallow tank water or water from a infected source. 72 days fallow at that. Otherwise the count constantly starts over every 3 days. Mix new saltwater everytime and seed with filter media from a clean origin. Hypo is extremely limited in effectiveness and is way more difficult than what Steve described in the first post.

ThRoewer
01/26/2015, 03:16 PM
I don't see how cryptocaryon can survive being boiled. And there are plenty of other reasons to lower the salinity, not just to kill the parasite.
Here is a good article on Ich and TTM: A New Variation Of The Transfer Method (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/mini#section-5)

gone fishin
01/26/2015, 03:21 PM
Using hypo and TTM in conjunction seems like an awful lot of extra work for a tried and true method such as TTM. just my 2 cents.

andy01748
01/26/2015, 03:40 PM
I don't see how cryptocaryon can survive being boiled.

It can't. In fact, boiling is over-kill, as studies have shown that the tomant (cyst stage) doesn't survive at 40 degrees C for one hour. However, I don't think anyone has studied what other possible negative chemical changes to water quality may occur by heating then reusing tank water. I would personally be leery of heating and reusing tank water.

I would also do TTM under hyposaline conditions, firstly to reduce stress and strengthen the fish's immune system and secondly to reduce costs.



You need to consider your energy costs for boiling the water, and for making the ice cubes to cool the hot water. If reducing cost is important to you, you may not be saving as much as you think.

TitanCi
01/26/2015, 03:45 PM
Using hypo and TTM in conjunction seems like an awful lot of extra work for a tried and true method such as TTM. just my 2 cents.


Maybe he meant hypo during TTM, as in just using less salt.

TitanCi
01/26/2015, 03:46 PM
I have a question here: I am lucky to live in San Diego, and by the Scripps institute of oceanography.

They give free filtered sea water. From a hose, literally.

Could this water be used for TTM?

gone fishin
01/26/2015, 03:49 PM
I looked at the link he provided. instead of just matching the bag or DT salinity one must lower the salinity over time to I assume true hypo conditions of 1.009. Then start the Tank transfers afterwards then the salinity must be increased back to the DT. Just seems like a lot of extra work for little to know gain.

TitanCi
01/26/2015, 03:53 PM
I looked at the link he provided. instead of just matching the bag or DT salinity one must lower the salinity over time to I assume true hypo conditions of 1.009. Then start the Tank transfers afterwards then the salinity must be increased back to the DT. Just seems like a lot of extra work for little to know gain.


Didn't see the link, but put this way, you're right.

I am doing TTM at only 1.020 vs my normal 1.023. Saves a cup of salt.

gone fishin
01/26/2015, 03:56 PM
Didn't see the link, but put this way, you're right.

I am doing TTM at only 1.020 vs my normal 1.023. Saves a cup of salt.

No worries. I have done them at 1.020, 1.018 it all depends on what the bag water is. I don't think I have ever got a fish at 1.026.

ThRoewer
01/26/2015, 06:44 PM
If you read the article carefully you see that the slow lowering of salinity is only for the filter bacteria to survive. Fish I just drip in over an hour and so far none of them has shown the slightest sign of distress.

While boiling might be overkill I don't think the changes in water chemistry affect fish. As for the energy - I combine the hot water with the currently quite cold RO water which usually gets it pretty close to my tank temperature. So I only use ice if I need to lower it a bit more.

In general the water should even be fine if you just let it stand in a canister for two days as the free stage can only live for 24h without attaching to a host.

TitanCi
01/27/2015, 01:25 AM
Can someone tell me if its ok to use filtered sea water for tank transfer? I have several jugs full of filtered sea water and I would think its a waste. Anyone, ie snorvich, foresee any issues with using it???

ThRoewer
01/27/2015, 01:36 AM
It's what I use. But I let it stand in the canister for a few days at room temperature.

TitanCi
01/27/2015, 01:52 AM
It's what I use. But I let it stand in the canister for a few days at room temperature.


Thanks, by filtered I really mean filtered from the sea. I live in San Diego and I am lucky (?) enough to be close to Scripps Institute. They give free water thats filtered. No diseases you think?

My DT is nothing but RO and IO RC though

ThRoewer
01/27/2015, 02:11 AM
The store where I get my water from uses and sells ocean water that has been collected off the coast at Monterey. They filter and enhance it (alkalinity and calcium) and I can find nothing wrong with it.

Dmorty217
01/27/2015, 09:39 AM
I don't see how cryptocaryon can survive being boiled. And there are plenty of other reasons to lower the salinity, not just to kill the parasite.
Here is a good article on Ich and TTM: A New Variation Of The Transfer Method (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/mini#section-5)

Why boil tank water and smell up your home when mixing new saltwater is much easier and less foul smelling?

Spar
01/27/2015, 09:47 AM
Can someone tell me if its ok to use filtered sea water for tank transfer? I have several jugs full of filtered sea water and I would think its a waste. Anyone, ie snorvich, foresee any issues with using it???


Parasites live in the wild too obviously. And microscopic organisms will go straight through most if not all filters id presume. So you still run the risk if bringing in a protomont or theront from that water. Now if you timed it right you could play the cycle right. Let it sit for 24-48 hours first. Theronts would die. Protomonts would encyst/harden. Transfer that water to a new dry container and should be good to go.

TitanCi
01/27/2015, 10:06 AM
The store where I get my water from uses and sells ocean water that has been collected off the coast at Monterey. They filter and enhance it (alkalinity and calcium) and I can find nothing wrong with it.



Parasites live in the wild too obviously. And microscopic organisms will go straight through most if not all filters id presume. So you still run the risk if bringing in a protomont or theront from that water. Now if you timed it right you could play the cycle right. Let it sit for 24-48 hours first. Theronts would die. Protomonts would encyst/harden. Transfer that water to a new dry container and should be good to go.


Thanks guys! The water has been in there since last week. I usually don't use it anymore but figure i was in the area and maybe give it a try.

:)

Fish are looking better and about to go into QT tonight.

Spar
01/27/2015, 04:43 PM
The water has been in there since last week.

I'd have to defer to the NSW experts on the chances of a parasite hitching in on NSW purchases; however, just to further my point about the timing... if you do wait more than 3 days from purchase, then your only concern after that is more theront's hatching. So [for absolute surety] you would want to transfer that water to a new container, wait 1 day, and all life cycle stages would be dead.

jbvdhp
01/27/2015, 05:23 PM
I'd have to defer to the NSW experts on the chances of a parasite hitching in on NSW purchases; however, just to further my point about the timing... if you do wait more than 3 days from purchase, then your only concern after that is more theront's hatching. So [for absolute surety] you would want to transfer that water to a new container, wait 1 day, and all life cycle stages would be dead.

Thanks Spar, luckily for me, it was free. :)

What if i microwaved the water or boiled it? Hmm...

TitanCi
01/28/2015, 02:37 AM
Well, my three tangs and Midas survived 12 days in a 18 gallon pink Sterilite bin! No visible ich, no flashing...

PT has some skin lesions caudally; thought it was flukes, may be, but they're lesions for sure.

Point is, TTM works for ich, no doubt. For those facing this problem, TTM is way to go.