Cleaning Sandbeds - truth and fiction

[toothybugs]

"Don't touch your sandbed!"

"Vacuum your sandbed and get the detritus out of it somewhat frequently."

Well, pick one. I did some rescaping tonight and found a few black spots in the sandbed, so my fear of a little HS came calling with a little whiff of egg/ sewer. I don't really overfeed my fish and my bed is at most just over 2" deep, usually thinner.

This is my second established reef aquarium. The last one did well but in truth I didn't know why it was doing well - it just did. Weekly water changes and manual topoffs with tap water, and it grew everything like mad. This round, I know more, and I've never touched my sandbed because the "don't disturb the anaerobics" school of thought makes sense to me. But today, after putting a shallower bed in this tank (the 75 had 5" of sand in it) specifically to avoid HS, I'm at a loss.

How, and how often, do you address keeping your sandbed clean? I have a few nassarius and most of my rock is elevated over the sand so most of it has water flowing over it. I'm kind of at a loss. Discuss.

[Phildirt]

I'm sure that there is HS in pockets below sand or debris collections in natural reefs. The main issue is we just dont have the water volume to dilute a release. Your issue has been main argument to run bare bottom.

With DSB the goal to leave it alone..... HS and all. With shallower beds you can vaccum the very upper most layer OR after years in place vaccum up sections over a period of months and replace each section with new sand.

I just vacuum the upper most layer which happens to be incidental to vacuuming up the surface debris from the sand.

[Sgt Jonny Cat]

I have a sand bed about 2 inches deep. Every water change I stick a turkey baster all the way into the sand and puff it so any detritus is sent into the water and then I do a water change. This has worked pretty well for me. The sand is nice and white. I have learned though, if its a deep sand bed you don't want to disturb it. Just MHO but its working...

[Stackemdeep]

I have 3-4" in some and 1" in other areas. I always pick a section and vacuum when I do a water change. I also go to a deep area, push the tube to the very bottom, and pull until the dark cloud in the 2" tube runs clear. I slow the flow down and let the sand fill the hole back up so I don't cloud the tank. The bucket will stink sometimes of that egg/HS smell and get down right dark. I do this to keep it from building up to a large level and would rather remove it than keep it covered. For the last three years it hasn't caused any problems and the SPS look better the next day. I was nervous the first few times I did this and now I don't give it a second thought. The first two years was mainly LPS and I didn't see a problem doing it this way then either. Good Luck.

[reefchase]

You can also buy certain snails that will clean and turn over the top layer of sand and clean up crew should help keep the DSB clean.

[ca1ore]

I typically keep about a 3 - 4 inch sand layer in my tank and do nothing to it. Key is to keep a selection of sand burrowing animals that will prevent it from going rotten eggs on you. Snails, fish, and tons of benthic worms. Pretty cool, actually.

[fritzz1111]

I start off with Wet, REAL, Live sand (from several miles off the coast - in the Gulf) purchased from Richard at Tampa Bay Saltwater (TBSW) who can be located under the vendor section.

He has a formula including amount of rock, sand, number of CUC and SS that he sends to you. I have one tank running for a year now using his formula and haven't touched the SB yet. Setting up another, much larger tank, and plan to use his same recipe.

I save all my siphoning efforts for the sump when doing my WC's.

[ReefsandGeeks]

I occasionaly (once a month or so) take a turkey baster and from an inch or so above the surface of the sand gently blow some water at an angle at the sandbed. I watch from the side near the glass and try not to disturb the lower half of the sandbed. This tends to get any detritus at the top suspended in the water for the filters to pick up. I have a DSB 4-5" deep, and havn't had a problem with it yet other than my dragon goby constantly pouring sand on my rock and coral. I have had the sand bed for 8 months or so. I also have some nassarius snails to help keep it stired at the surface. If my sandbed was undisturbed for a long time, I might try using the turkey baster on small sections every few days and watch the livestock to make sure they wern't being harmed. then once I eventualy got through the whole sandbed, I'd do it all monthly like I do now. has worked so far for me.

[JammyBirch]

You can also buy certain snails that will clean and turn over the top layer of sand and clean up crew should help keep the DSB clean.

Bingo... This is what I have in my tank. Cerith snails are always tooling around the sand bed keeping it nice and clean.

[ca1ore]

He has a formula including amount of rock, sand, number of CUC and SS that he sends to you. I have one tank running for a year now using his formula and haven't touched the SB yet. Setting up another, much larger tank, and plan to use his same recipe.

What kind of sand sifters does he send? You do realize that anybody's 'formula' is just a WAG, right.

[coralsnaked]

I am more into my fish and coral than I am into sand. Sand has become one of those things if you like it you can have it but it comes w/ its own maintenance and lifespan, and is by no means a necessary filtration or buffering media. One of the problems with sand is when it reaches a certain age it will give back to the tank all it has taken, and is a contributor to OTS old tank syndrome.

In a tsnk where you desire burrowing fish and critters it is a must. But otherwise is only for aesthetics IMHO. I grown tired of it and found in my tanks where I desire a little somp'n sump'n on the bottom, I utilize 1" or less of Atlantic CC to just cover the bottom. I can stir it or vacuum the heck out of it But mostly I like bare bottom and lots of flow in my SPS tanks. No detritus and I can dedicate my time to other house keeping chores.

[Sk8r]

Nassarius snails (5 large per 50 gallon), Tongan FIghting Conch (1 per 50 gallon), sandsifting star (1 per 50 gallon), cucumber, and burrowing gobies are all methods of cleaning the sandbed that don't require intervention.

[buddhafish]

I use my hand to stir my sand bed on a daily basis.

[downbeach]

This seems to be a popular subject lately, here is a copy of my response from another thread.
I also ran a 6+" DSB, although in my DT. I didn't touch it. I did however add both the reef activator, and reefworm diversity packs from IPSF about every two years. I also kept a couple fighting conch's, some Nassarius Vibrex and Cerith snails to keep the upper portions loose. A couple Leopard Wrasses also pitched in.

[fritzz1111]

What kind of sand sifters does he send? You do realize that anybody's 'formula' is just a WAG, right.

Tiger tail cumbers, brittle stars, astrea snails, peppermint shrimp and blue leg hermit crabs.

WAG? I suppose. If you overstock your tank, have improper lighting, don't regularly schedule WC's, etc.

All I know is they've got ton's of happy customers here, and I'm a repeat customer. Been in business for a long time and prospering where many of us small busines owners are suffering. Got to be more to it that a WAG, don't you think? Just sayin'...

[ca1ore]

WAG? I suppose. If you overstock your tank, have improper lighting, don't regularly schedule WC's, etc.

No 'I suppose' about it. Rules-of-thumb are fine, but inherently imprecise.

[Dan_P]

Your question might be "detritus, fact or fiction? What is the goal of vacuuming the substrate any way? It is probably a fresh water aquarium technique carried over to salt water keeping.

Except for fresh fish excrement, if you see it, the bacteria have already digested the digestable. It is really a matter of esthetics I think.

Paul B cleans his substrate, but not too frequently though, and to keep his reverse flow undergravel filter functioning. Water purification plants will back wash their filters to remove blockage or to resettle the filter bed for slow flow or when pressure builds up. Things get into the substrate by diffussion not flow, so, I am not sure how important cleaning the substrate.

The substrate is also a complex ecosystem. If it exists as a stable mass most of the time and then is turned over by vacuuming, that is a catastrophic event for it. If it is regularly turned over by vacuuming, then there is no issue. As biological filters, the regularly turned over substrate is likely to behave differently than the stable one, for example, little or no denitrification will occur in it.

If you feel a need to vacuum the substrate, do it frequently and thoroughly, or do not go below the top 1/8 inch or so of substrate.

[fritzz1111]

No 'I suppose' about it. Rules-of-thumb are fine, but inherently imprecise.

Simon - You are kidding me/us, right? I mean Seriously? Did you not have anything gainful to add to the conversation today? You must not get out much.

This will be the last exchange you get from me, Simon. I'd hate to think how much value (if any) of your "thousands" of posts add to the sharing and advancement of the hobby. You appear to be the exact reason I have spent years studying and collecting information quietly behind the scenes on topics I had questions on vs. actively participating in forums such as this.

You know... it's funny... I've always pictured two grown men living in their mom's basement, overweight, Doritos stains on their wife beater t-shirts and yelling at their folks upstairs cause there were no cookies brought down with lunch. All the while they are "big balling" online to see who can rip who down the most. I hope this doesn't sound too familiar to you.

What was I thinking? That after all of these years (and I mean ALL these years) I might actually step up to the plate, throw some skin into the game and hopefully contribute to someone's advancement in an area I have REAL life experience with and learned (most likely the hard way) and that maybe, just maybe make their day a little brighter. That would be crazy, right?

Simon - The question was direct and and uncomplicated, to which I and every other post in this thread successfully managed (present company excluded), to add value.

It took me exactly one (1) day (24hrs) to run across the very thing that keeps folks like me (people with information to share, positive reinforcement during times of duress, money to spend and other various types of support) away from sights/forums like this. Those were a lot of years fees went uncollected and supporters, well, went unsupported.

Do you own a competing business or something?! I mean come on man.

Hey. If you do... I apologize from the bottom of my heart. I really do... "I am sorry".

You are either very wet behind the ears or overly confident (to a shameful fault) to have the audacity to attack me directly (well directly in a sense hiding in a basement behind a computer somewhere) in this particular (or any other) situation. "anybody's formula is WAG"? Only to downgrade your two cents nobody asked for to "inherently imprecise"? HE WANTED TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING AND WHY. What I know is what I know, and that was the question presented in the beginning. My levels are consistently where they need to be, I probably change way less water than most do and less frequently. All of my tank(s) past and present have thrived. I also know no less than 50 other reefers with similar set ups the enjoying the same. Go take a hike.

Now, is this the sole reason why? Heck no, but that's the topic of this thread, and what my input focused on.

Did I mention their customer service? TOP NOTCH!!! Hard to find these days. I/we didn't come here for debate, ridicule or miserably attempting to call someone out. We come here to learn and share. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it certainly doesn't make one look very smart. I doubt anyone here, today, found either of those two posts to be constructive or add any value to the conversation at hand.

When your opinion matters to me, which it doesn't, I will come to you looking for assistance. From the looks of it, doesn't look like there's very much meat on the bone, so I doubt that will be the case. You've already gotten more of my time than you deserve and I am now bored, which is why you are no longer getting it. Makes you wonder how many other visitors looked at your posts and simply shook their head. Best of luck.

Nate - sorry for this. I just hate to think how many people look, but never contribute because of unsolicited comments like these. Some folks may have things to offer but don't because of fear of pitiful attempts such as these to be made like a fool, or look at these exchanges and figure why in the world would they want to voluntarily subject themselves to such behavior.

Oh, and Simon... "It is never wise to try to appear to be more clever than you are. It is sometimes wise to appear slightly less so". And quite frankly it just doesn't wear well on you. Ironic isn't it?

[fritzz1111]

The end.

[ca1ore]

Wow, I don't think I've laughed quite so hard at a response in along time - thank you for giving this overweight shut-in a bit of amusement in an otherwise dull, online obsessed life :)

BTW, your long-winded and foolish response says more about you than it does me. In any 'argument' the first one to resort to personal insults is always the loser. There is an ignore feature here on RC, I suggest you avail yourself of it as I have.

PS - avail means to take advantage of.

[nmotz]

Fritzz11, my man, that was an epic, internet forum meltdown but I'm really not sure why? I don't think ca1ore was trying to be hateful initially although I agree it can be hard to interpret the "tone" of someone's words over the net. I think all he meant to say was that people, especially those new to the hobby, shouldn't think that somebody's rules-of-thumb are the law. They are decent guidelines that may work for some people, but not for everyone.

For example, most retailers suggest 5 watts of light per gallon for SPS coral, but I've seen many, many examples of people who have beatiful SPS corals using T5s with just 3.75-4 watts per gallon. Again, it's a decent guideline, but just a "WAG" as ca1ore was saying.

Anyways, no malice intended, just trying to bring the peace!

[JammyBirch]

Girls...girls...you're both pretty.:eek1:

I agree with the above post as well, there are many ways to succeed in this hobby. I got blasted for sharing DR.Tims ammonia chloride for starting a cycle a while back. Hey it worked for me but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Half of the fun is learning on your own.

[toothybugs]

So... fussing with the sandbed is an "all or nothing" proposition.

Got it.

Thanks folks.

[cloak]

I'm basically treating my SSB the same way I'm treating the gravel in my freshwater tank. Once a month I'll stir the whole thing up right before a water change. I just want to get all that muck into the water column & take out what I can. The freshwater tank has been set up for almost 25 years now, so I see why why the saltwater tank should be any different... Other than the salt, it's pretty much the same thing IMO.

[cloak]

Woops... (Pabst) ;)

[cloak]

Whoa! My bad, my blunder...

Go Pats!