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rt67ghy
02/08/2015, 02:30 PM
Hello,
I set up my 180 gallon DT (with a 50 gallon refuge/sump) 9 months ago. It has 308 lbs live rock and 150 lbs argonite sand.

I currently have a 14" heteractis crispa (6 months), a 10" green bubble tip(4 months) and a 5" green haddoni carpet anemone (over 1 month), a porites coral, a brain coral , some mushrooms and zoas and a red tomato clownfish.

I'm planning on getting some acropora (and some LPS). I'm wondering if the acropora will do well in a tank where the anemones are fed regularly (the carpet and GBT are real hogs - fed twice a week and growing rapidly).

water parametres: salinity 1.025
nitrates 1.5
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
temp 25-26 C
phosphates 0.2 (hanna phosphorus url)

My concern is the phosphates which are hard to keep low due to the frozen food I feed the anemones. I'm running GFO in a reactor (and set up an algae scrubber recently) but I can't bring the phosphates lower. My porites is growing and my brain coral (lobophyllia) is growing rapidly but I know acropora are more sensitive to water conditions.

Shoul I be concerned about the acropora with that phosphate level? (So far I haven't lost any corals, fish or anemones and wouldn't want to start now.)

Regards,
Mohammad

banthonyb71
02/08/2015, 03:07 PM
High phosphate levels can stunt coral growth rate and reproduction as well keep them looking unhealthy. Just curious where your getting your water? I would do a significant water change with ro/di, wait awhile and see if your levels rise. If they continue to rise, maybe think about adding some more to your tank to take up phosphates such as microalgae

banthonyb71
02/08/2015, 03:13 PM
sorry, I just noticed, you said you set up an algae scrubber.

rt67ghy
02/09/2015, 07:24 AM
Thanks banthonyb71 for the reply.
I did a test on my RO water and found it to have 0.027 ppm phosphate which I didn't expect to find. Then I broke open a used carbon cartridge from my RO unit, soaked the carbon in RO water for 24hrs and tested the water after filtering out the carbon dust and surprise surprise! I got a phosphate reading of 0.77ppm! so the two carbon cartridges are obviously leaching phosphates which accumulates with topping off with RO water. I changed both cartridges yesterday and I'm now wondering whether I'll get even more phosphates with the new cartridges. I'm wondering if anyone else has tested their RO water for phosphates? The cartridges I get are made in China and the carbon they use was obviously washed with phosphoric acid. Unfortunately I cannot get any cartridges here which use better grade carbon.

Regards,
Mohammad

jayball
02/09/2015, 09:40 AM
Thanks banthonyb71 for the reply.
I did a test on my RO water and found it to have 0.027 ppm phosphate which I didn't expect to find. Then I broke open a used carbon cartridge from my RO unit, soaked the carbon in RO water for 24hrs and tested the water after filtering out the carbon dust and surprise surprise! I got a phosphate reading of 0.77ppm! so the two carbon cartridges are obviously leaching phosphates which accumulates with topping off with RO water. I changed both cartridges yesterday and I'm now wondering whether I'll get even more phosphates with the new cartridges. I'm wondering if anyone else has tested their RO water for phosphates? The cartridges I get are made in China and the carbon they use was obviously washed with phosphoric acid. Unfortunately I cannot get any cartridges here which use better grade carbon.

Regards,
Mohammad

That sucks about the RO cartridge, if you can fix this you should be golden. You must burn up GFO like it is going out of style.
One thing to note is if you have undetectable nitrate your ATS will not be able to pull the phosphate from the system. There have been threads in the advanced section about dosing nitrates to reduce phosphate, I believe that was centered around carbon dosing but the same principal applies. You may want to look into that.

tmz
02/09/2015, 11:05 AM
SPS and lps can do ok with 0.2ppm PO4 ;even though PO4 on the reef is substantially lower, 0.005ppm at the surface, it varies throughout marine habitats. There are accounts of successful sps tanks at 0.2ppm and higher. In a mixed reef the corals anemones et alia come from a variety of environments including some highly turbid waters and deeper water in some cases where nutrients including phosphate, nitrogen and organic carbon are higher.
Anemones and corals and other living things need soluble reactive phosphate including PO4 for ATP, phosporylation,dna etc. At high levels the calcification process which produces the skeletal matrix is altered . The studies I recall were done in the 0.5 range ,IIRC. At that level , perhaps lower ,corals produce more fragile brittle skeletons and tend to be a darker color. At undetectable PO4 levels corals have lower zooxanthellae densiities and some will bleach and persih without adding a varieity of supplements.

Personally for my mixed reef which includes entmacea quadricolor anemones, some nps , a large vairety of sps , gorgonia ,goniopora and many other varities , PO4 in the 0.02ppm to 0.04 range meets their needs while keeping nuisance algae to a minimum. I feed very heavily by most standards.
Some folks , like the pastel colors associated with lower PO4, some prefer it at 0.1ppm or more relying more on herbivores for algae control.
I've dosed organic carbon( vodka and vinegar) for over 5 years along with some gac use . I haven't used gfo in over a year. Corals and anemones are vibrant and grow well.

With nitrate at 1.5ppm it's not limiting phosphate uptake ,imo; mine runs from barley detedtable to 1ppm.

GAC can leach phosphate if it's manufacture includes a wash in phosphoric acid. Many carbons for aquariums avoid that type of acid wash. It's also possible the fines polluted the sample water giving higher results. The amount of PO4 getting past an ro/di unit is usually insignificant vs the massive amounts of phosphate added daily in foods even in lightly fed tanks.

rt67ghy
02/09/2015, 12:04 PM
You must burn up GFO like it is going out of style.
.

Lol. Actually I only started using GFO 2 weeks ago after I found I had high phosphates using the hanna checker which I just got then. My previous test kit for phosphates was API which I didn't find very reliable.

rt67ghy
02/09/2015, 12:46 PM
Thanks tmz for such a detailed and comprehensive answer. That's a lot of useful info for anyone keeping a reef. I'm the first one in my country (Bangladesh) to do so and I hope to spread the knowledge here for successful reef-keeping. Some people here do get corals and anemones but unfortunately, most can't keep them alive. I hope to change that in the future so more people can join the hobby.
I"ll be able to sleep better knowing that 0.2ppm PO4 should not kill my sps but I read here: [http://************.com/2012/08/31/acropora-suharsonoi/] that we should strive for 0.03ppm PO4 for acropora and this had me worried.

Also, I'm interested in whether dosing vodka and vinegar takes care of the phosphates or nitrates or both?

I have a chance of adding to my anemone collection with a blue stichodactyla gigantea which I may find hard to resist. In your opinion can my 6'x2'x2' DT accomodate 4 large anemones? I already have a big sebae, a BTA and a smaller haddoni carpet. My current 3 nems are no less than 2 feet apart from each other and soon I'm going to run activated carbon to neutralize the chemicals they're releasing into the system. Any help will be appreciated.

Regards,
Mohammad

banthonyb71
02/09/2015, 06:11 PM
[QUOTE=tmz;23489186]SPS and lps can do ok with 0.2ppm PO4 ;
PO4 in the 0.02ppm to 0.04 range meets their needs while keeping nuisance algae to a minimum. I feed very heavily by most standards.
Some folks , like the pastel colors associated with lower PO4, some prefer it at 0.1ppm

?


So your saying, anything under .5 will not inhibit the calcareous skeleton production of stony corals? I was always told anything 0.1 was acceptable for stony corals, and that even at .05 could effect the pigmentation of the tissue.

Is that what you meant by pastel colors?

tmz
02/10/2015, 01:14 AM
No , I didn't say that. It will alter calcification at .5 perhaps even at lower levels producing a less dense more brittle skeletal mass(,not a good thing ,imo ,) but not inhibiting growth or production " per se, as once thought. I suspect the extra ATP(adenosine tri phosphate) pushes more calcium annd carbonate out which offsets the stunting of calcium carbonate crystal growth from high phosaphte in the water resulting in equal or even faster production and growth but a more fragile skeleton.

.02 to .04ppm works well for me in a mixed reef and is my preference but some folks do well at 0.1 or 0 .2 + . Yes zooxanthellae density likely increases with higher PO4 and that darkens the coral somewhat. Zooxanthelae is brown. The OP asked about a mixed reef with anemones,discoma and other corals which may have a greater need than sps for phosphate and other nutrients. Many of them come from waters with higher levels .

.01ppm might be ok but might be too low even for sps in some cases . Don't forget most testing equipment is only accurate to within +/- 0.04ppm any way. So a phosphate deficiency might occur in some tanks even with a 0.01 reading.

tmz
02/10/2015, 01:33 AM
I read here: [http://************.com/2012/08/31/a...a-suharsonoi/] (http://************.com/2012/08/31/acropora-suharsonoi/]) that we should strive for 0.03ppm PO4 for acropora and this had me worried.

I can't get the link to work. 0.03ppm is the level at which phytoplankton and some other algaes are limited by a lack of phosphate and has been a common target for controlling nuisance algae.
It is likely a good target for sps though it can be higher. I keep it close to 0.03ppm ,ie between 0,02ppm and 0.04ppm perahanah 713 colorimeter but I wouldn't worry about my sps dieing off if it wereto jump to 0.1 or even 0.2 though they might be a bit darker and I'd likely get a bump in nuisance algae. On the other hand if it went down rapidly to undetectable I'd expect some bleaching and even ther loss of some corals . I would be remiss though if I stated 0.03ppm even though that works for me it's a must for sps. There are many tanks at much higher levels with nice richly colored albeit slighly darker sps doing very well.

I'm interested in whether dosing vodka and vinegar takes care of the phosphates or nitrates or both?

Organic carbon dosing (vodka and vinegar in my case) along with skimming keeps both PO4 and NO3 low .

rt67ghy
02/10/2015, 10:08 AM
Thanks again tmz for your response.

The link is to an article titled 'Acropora suharsonoi- one of the most beautiful and unique deepwater Acro species' by Leonardo den Breejen.

Regards,
Mohammad

tmz
02/10/2015, 11:04 AM
You are welcome.

I do keep a sharsonoi relatively high in the aqaruium, about 6 inches from teh surface. It's been healthy for a long time.Still can't get the link to work.

banthonyb71
02/10/2015, 06:11 PM
I read here: [http://************.com/2012/08/31/a...a-suharsonoi/] (http://************.com/2012/08/31/acropora-suharsonoi/]) that we should strive for 0.03ppm PO4 for acropora and this had me worried.


Is it a ************ link? I would be curious as to read the article. I'm always willing to read recommended articles. especially on this topic. I've always had more success with SPS than LPS for some strange reason. Most of my Lps reproduce sloow. do you believe p04 could have a play in that my phosphate levels are always kept very low. maybe too low??

banthonyb71
02/10/2015, 07:03 PM
Thanks again tmz for your response.

an article by Leonardo den Breejen.

Regards,
Mohammad

ahh, guess I should have seen that hint. now I see. Thanks