View Full Version : How badly did I mess up?
LeRenard
02/10/2015, 10:10 AM
Hey folks,
I'm a newb when it comes to saltwater, and apparently I'm not very good at it because I keep making mistakes and I haven't even gotten the tank cycled or fish in yet.
I'm setting up my first saltwater tank- as a FOWLR for now but hopefully as a reef in the future when I'm more confident in my skills and after I upgrade my lighting. It's a 36 gallon bowfont. For background, I'm an engineer and have "most" of a masters in secondary biology education, so I know only enough to be dangerous.
My LFS initially advised me that I could use tap water for my FOWLR, so I tried that and discovered the joys of precipitating calcium carbonate. I made a 36 gallon snow globe. I decided to ditch that attempt because I would never trust the parameters, and drained and cleaned the tank.
For a second attempt, again at the LFS, I purchased 35 gallons of premixed salt water. I figured I should at least start with a known-good water supply. The LFS said I would be able to put my live sand and some live rock in straight away, and that sounded like a pretty good prospect, so I also purchased 40 pounds of live sand and 35 pounds of really gorgeous live rock covered in deep purple coralline algae. Their instructions were to place the sand, place the live rock, then fill with seawater.
When I got home, I placed my sand, then placed in the live rock. I was able to get a really nice aquascape quickly because after building rock piles for my cichlid tanks for so long the live rock is much easier to stack. I then carefully poured in my premixed water.
That's when it hit me.. the seawater had been cooling the whole time and I'd forgotten to take that into account. When I set up my digital thermometer the tank read 60 degrees F. :(
I got the heater plugged in, a 200 watt Eheim, and since I had it on hand I also threw in a 150 watt aqueon. I took about 2 hours to get the tank up to 80.
To make this all the more interesting, I work at a hospital in Massachusetts, and due to the 2 feet of snow we just had I had to pack up and bug out emergency style so I could make it to work in the storm. My family and I are staying with family so I can get to work with the commuter rail out of service. It doesn't happen often (maybe once before) but it figures it would coincide with setting up my new tank.
So, to recap.. I put my live sand and live rock in the tank, filled it with 60F water (DOH!), heated it to 80F, and then had to take off due to an emergency. I haven't seen the tank in two days (!!) and I'm absolutely terrified that I've killed my live rock, all the hitchikers, and that beautiful coraline algae I paid extra to get (:() When I left, I left an Aqueon 500 circulation pump running, the two heaters, and I turned on my AquaC Remora but pulled out the cup to add extra flow and oxygenation. I've been monitoring that the power has been steady at home.
Did I kill everything? The bacteria? The hitchikers? the coraline? Should I "nuke" the live rock and start over? Do I need to recure it? Will I need to reseed it? Help, what do I do when I get home tonight!? Should I bring anything? Some more live rock to reseed it? Some more seawater for a water change?
Any advice from someone who knows what they are doing will go a long way to calming my nerves. I feel like this is already overwhelming me and all I really want to do is keep a pair of ocellaris clownfish. :( I'm just becoming less confident I know how to get from here to there.
tkeracer619
02/10/2015, 10:24 AM
It's fine. I doubt anything was nuked so I wouldn't worry about that. Even though the rock was already live it probably would need to cycle anyways. I wouldn't worry about the low temp at this point, I doubt anything you have was hurt the slightest.
Remember nothing good happens fast in a reef tank, you will need to slow down and let things happen. You can't force them to happen.
Let us know what it looks like when you get home, post a pic, and lets keep progressing forward. You have no reason to worry.
MysteryReef
02/10/2015, 10:26 AM
Calm down, your fine. 60 degrees wouldnt be good for any inverts/fish but live rock life is surprisingly resiliant. I would start by reading all of the "sticky" threads at the top of the new to the hobby forum, there is a wealth of information that should answer most of your questions in those thread. If after reading them you have further questions, ask away. Good luck.
jimmy_beaner
02/10/2015, 10:26 AM
Calm down. Live rock is pretty hardy. Yes, you probably killed *some* things off, but the vast majority should be fine. You'll still have beneficial bacteria present and whatever die off may occur will be food for the bacteria that did survive. The coralline will also survive (it's rather hardy). Give it a little time and see how it goes but I bet you'll see at most a mini cycle (which isn't that big of deal since you don't have fish in the tank).
whosurcaddie
02/10/2015, 10:26 AM
CALM DOWN!!! LOL... Everything is fine. Your cycle will continue and you didn't kill everything. You need die off for the cycle to even work so stop stressing about it. You have about 6 to 8 weeks then you will be good to go.
whosurcaddie
02/10/2015, 10:27 AM
LOL @ everyone... calm down.
LeRenard
02/10/2015, 10:48 AM
THANK YOU. I imagine a bunch of the stress of keeping the hospital going (and getting there) these past two weeks spilled over into anxiety that I'd offed my lovely (and expensive!) live rock and would end up doing a three month cycle or having to start over again.
It seems silly but having a bunch of people say "don't worry about it" has put me very much at ease. When you're on unfamiliar ground you don't know if mishaps are huge or minor. Also thank you for the links to the information, I'll absorb as much of that as I can.
I'll try to post a picture when I get home tonight!
Reef Frog
02/10/2015, 10:49 AM
Your bacteria colonies and coralline algae should definitely survive the brief exposure to 60F water. In fact they'll probably be unfazed. My bet is many hitch hikers like copepods will make it as well. If you had fish, they might have died - some corals would also would have likely survived but would definitely be stressed.
Hopefully your heaters were set correctly and won't over heat the tank. 450 watts seems like a lot of heat potential for 36g. Temps approaching 90F MAY be detrimental to certain hitchhikers and can certainly kill fish and corals.
So, all and all I am predicting you'll be OK and no drastic measures will be necessary - even if all the hitch hikers perish it won't be the end of the world. In any case I would proceed with a standard cycling protocol. Good luck.
LeRenard
02/10/2015, 07:30 PM
When I got home this evening, heading up the stairs, I half expected my house to smell like a fish market. It turns out, however, everything looked pretty good! The sand had settled out, and I was able to see that I'd made a pretty big mess when I'd poured the water in. I guess I didn't go quite as slowly as I'd thought, even though I'd used a dish. I looked over everything pretty closely for about a half hour, but I didn't see any signs of life. I did, however, find an asterina star on the glass at the back of the tank.. so it's something I guess! I was hoping to see some copepods or something of that ilk, but I don't see anything moving in there. At least it smells good!
I tried to straighten out the sand a bit (it was bare glass in a few places) but it's pretty fine grain stuff and turns into a cloud if I look at it funny, so I stopped and decided just to leave it be for now. It did cloud up the tank a tad but it looks worse in the picture than in person. My lovely arangement shifted a bit, too, but I can live with how it ended up I think.. two neat little arches and lots of nooks and crannies.
My water testing came out:
Ammonia: .25 ppm
NO3: 0
NO2: 0
pH: 8.2
KH:120 ppm
Salinity: 1.021 (measured with a hydrometer)
It was also about 1 full gallon low, which I replaced with distilled water.
http://i.imgur.com/hBTVtD7.jpg
Savant
02/11/2015, 07:36 AM
Nice "scape"! :thumbsup:
Might want to get a controller for that much heater, if one decides to stick open you could go south pretty fast:hmm5:
jimmy_beaner
02/11/2015, 07:45 AM
Nice, just a small cycle :)
Nina51
02/11/2015, 08:04 AM
like how your scape turned out! it looks like the rock is pretty close to the sides and you won't be able to get a magfloat in between rock and glass. not a huge deal unless you have ocd like i do and can't stand to see algae anywhere except on the back wall. LOL
your salinity is a bit low. you should shoot for right around 1.024-1.026. also, the little swing arm hydrometers can be inaccurate, especially over time. you should look into getting a good refractometer.
i just have one question...what did you guys do out there to tick off mother nature??? i mean, seriously, FEET of snow? i was raised in minnesota and never saw anything like what you're getting out there!!!
LeRenard
02/11/2015, 12:43 PM
I took the 200 watt heater out, I'd only had it in there to help when the tank was at 60F. Right now there is an Aqueon 150 watt in there and it's hanging steady at about 80F. This morning on my way out the door I noticed the tank had reverted to being completely cloudy again. At first I thought maybe it was an bloom, but it turns out the maxijet pump had fallen off my Remora and was creating a lovely sand snow globe :/ It was a 30 second fix but I'm guessing it'll take a few days before the tank clears up. I've been running the remora with the cup out just to break the surface up a little.
I'm not sure why the salinity is low. I checked it with a Tropic Marin hydrometer, but there's always a chance it's user error which is why I haven't corrected it yet. I had a mark on the tank where I'd filled it and I've only added enough distilled water to bring it back to that mark (RO/DI unit still hasn't arrived). I was thinking of taking a gallon of distilled water and mixing it to about 1.030 and then slowly adding it to the tank until it reaches 1.026. Is there a better way to do it?
Nina51: I wish I knew! If you figure it out, let me/us know.. I spent 5 hours commuting to work this morning. The MBTA had *one* train running on my line. smh.
FraggledRock
02/11/2015, 12:48 PM
Everyone calm down its time to freak out!
tkeracer619
02/11/2015, 06:08 PM
I'm not sure why the salinity is low. I checked it with a Tropic Marin hydrometer, but there's always a chance it's user error which is why I haven't corrected it yet.
Get one of these. It is worth every penny. if i could prop bet what fails first i'd put a grand on the heater.
http://www.etcsupply.com/ranco-etc111000000-digital-temperature-controller-p-86.html
Get a ATC refractometer and some 35ppt calibration fluid. Don't trust the hydrometer.
To increase salinity top off with 1.026 saltwater instead of fresh water until you reach 1.026. 1.021 isnt bad. 1.023 is safe
LeRenard
02/11/2015, 07:42 PM
I took a water sample with me down to the LFS and had them check it with the refractometer.. 1.026 on the nose. I'm not surprised, I bought it premixed (at a different store) and it was 1.026 to start with and I've been downright retentive about topping up exactly. ATC refractometer ordered!
When I got home it was a snow globe *AGAIN*. I felt around looking for the pump that had fallen off last time, but I found it was still securely on the skimmer. This time my cheap Aqueon circulation pump had snapped right off it's mount and fallen to the bottom. WHAT IS UP WITH THE EQUIPMENT IN THIS TANK?? I'm going to give Hydor Koralias a try this time. Two 425s ordered! My poor credit card.
It was down a full gallon just today! BRS RO/DI should be here by the weekend, but clearly I need an ATO.
In regards to the heater controller, awesome, I've been looking for something like that. I've had a few freshwater friends cooked and I've gotten gun-shy with my heaters, which is why in the picture you can see I've got a temperature alarm hooked up that I can read from across the room.
I set up much the same with water and rock that had been trucked in by pickup in a snowstorm. Dunno what the temperature was, but it was probably well under 50. 60 is not good for fish and corals, but I had even corals survive the cycle.
We have a really comprehensive sticky up above ---SETTING UP. THat's able to answer a lot of questions, from the basic to the technical. You're ok.
A marine tank evaps about a gallon per 50 gallons of water daily, which is a good thing, but you will want that ATO. Sand kicks up until it's got a biological coating: that may be your snowstorm. You can get another kind by dosing calcium and buffer too close to each other--always allow 8 hours. There's a note in that sticky about water chemistry. Don't panic. You're doing fine. Just don't let it heat above 83 (2 more degrees is bad news ffrom there) and don't let it chill below 75 (lethality to some organisms starts at 62, but it varies, and warm rock retards that disaster.) NEver trust a heater indicator! Use a thermometer---better yet, have 2.
A little fishfood dropped in daily is all you need to cycle, 1 flake per 10 gallons. Every day for 4 weeks will do it. THen you get snails and little crabs. And quarantine your first fish. REmember---slow is good.
acabgd
02/11/2015, 09:21 PM
Get a ATC refractometer and some 35ppt calibration fluid. Don't trust the hydrometer.
That Tropic Marin hydrometer he's using (if it's the big one) is hand made and one of the more precise means of measuring salinity. So he should be fine there.
asylumdown
02/11/2015, 10:17 PM
Just remember that all the critters on live rock are the same critters that can survive a trip half way round the world in the cargo hold of an airplane wrapped in nothing more than wet newspaper. Temporarily falling to 60 degrees wouldn't phase them.
Nina51
02/12/2015, 06:13 AM
When I got home it was a snow globe *AGAIN*.
i'm assuming you are using power heads that attach with suction cups? if that's the case, this will be an ongoing problem. ditch them and get the ones that attach with magnets. much more secure!!!
LeRenard
02/12/2015, 12:51 PM
i'm assuming you are using power heads that attach with suction cups?
The first snow globe was from the MJ1200 falling off my Remora skimmer. That's probably my fault for not tightening the clamp enough.
The second one was from an Aqueon 500 circulation pump that snapped right off its mount by itself.. the suction cup stayed put, actually! To be honest, I didn't have very much faith in it, and it was destined to become my salt mixing powerhead already.
By the way, this morning the tank was crystal clear and I found a tiny 6 legged brittle star climbing the back glass, so at least two things survived. I'm "ghost feeding" 4 flakes a day and everything looks good so far.
Thanks everyone for all the help!
Rognin
02/12/2015, 01:22 PM
I'd open that lid you have to help with gas exchange. That's my only suggestion.
tkeracer619
02/12/2015, 03:55 PM
In regards to the heater controller, awesome, I've been looking for something like that.
You're welcome, they are worth their weight in gold. The temp probe is self calibrating and if it sense an error it will let you know. You can replace the probe as well. I've had maybe 3 probe failures between ~15 units over the years but none of them resulted in an overheat. It was always a probe error and simply soldering a new probe had it back to new. Only thing they lack is an audible alarm for fault situations. That is where your reef controller comes in, mine will text me until I throw the phone or fix the tank.
LeRenard
02/13/2015, 11:11 AM
I'd open that lid you have to help with gas exchange. That's my only suggestion.
Like this? :lol2:
http://i.imgur.com/u7rVdL6.jpg
Ok, some of that is just a gratuitous brag shot of my new CPR AquaFuge2. :) I'm hoping to make good use of that later.
I'm planning on retrofitting the flap/door from the old hood to the front for asthetics, later.. I just made this with some scrap egg crate as a short term solution. That Aqueon HOB is only there for some flow until I the replacement circulation pump arrives. Also I've got a Current USA Orbit Marine light on the way which will be replacing that flourescent light.
I can't go without a grate or cover because my two year old likes to "make fishies"...
LeRenard
02/16/2015, 05:04 PM
I don't know what's up with my cycle. I figured the live rock die-off would be enough to start the cycle, and my tests have been .25 amm, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate until three days ago. Thinking I might need more ammonia, three days ago I threw in an uncooked shrimp. It's now turned to a fuzzy lump, but my numbers are just .5 amm, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate.
Should I throw in another shrimp to get the ammonia up or should that .5 be enough to get things moving? Shouldn't ammonia have been higher? I'd almost suspect my live rock bacteria had eaten some of the ammonia if it weren't for that 0 nitrates.
I'm using an API test kit (dropper and vials, not strips) if that matters.
LeRenard
02/18/2015, 07:52 PM
Seems like it just needed some time. Tonight it's 1.0 amm, ~.75ppm nitrite, 0ppm nitrate.
No sign of my hitchhikers.
Guess I'll go back to reading threads for a few more weeks.. Still waiting for my light (Current USA Orbit Marine, I got a good deal but I know it'll be a little weak for much more than soft corals) and ATO (Hydor+AquaLifter) to arrive. My heater is all over the place (78-82F swings), so I'm also going to get that Ranco ordered and set up stat. I'm kind of wondering if I should return the Hydor ATO and just pop for an Apex Jr though.
julie180
02/19/2015, 07:42 AM
If you can afford it, a controller is one of the best purchases that I made. You can also control your heaters with the apex. ATO was probably second best purchase.
You can enjoy your tank more when you don't have to worry about some of the little things, well, little but with huge consequences if things go wrong.
LeRenard
02/22/2015, 09:04 AM
Since this tank started out with a natural disaster, and since I'm *still* having random equipment failures, I've nicknamed it "Disaster Reef". Yesterday I installed a new Current USA Orbit Marine fixture + timer.. come this morning, it's already completely unresponsive. +1 for Disaster reef.
I've got the Hydor Smart ATO in place with an aqualifter. The top offs take forever since the aqualifter only dribbles top off water, but after thinking about it since I'm adding it straight to the display tank that's probably a good thing. The first Aqualifter was DOA.. +1 Disaster reef.
I decided that since I can get called away to respond to emergencies at the hospital occasionally, an Apex just made sense since I could keep an eye on things while I was away. I ordered up an Apex Jr, but since my light crapped out I'm seriously considering returning the Jr for a standard Apex and ditching this Current USA light for something compatible with the Apex.
Any suggestions on lights that would work with a 30" wide, 20" deep tank that would play nice with the Apex and not bankrupt me? I can't say I have a strong interest in SPS (at least not yet) but a year or so from now I'd like to be able to keep an anemone and as I understand it they need fairly bright light. A brain coral would be cool, and I think that's LPS? Other than that most of the ones I like are soft corals or LPS. I think I'll be going slow in that area given the trouble I've had, but I'd like to get equipment I won't have to replace in a year
As for the cycle:
2/18 2.0 ppm Amm, 1.0 ppm Nitite, 0.0 ppm Nitrate
2/20 0.5 ppm Amm, 0.25 ppm Nitrite, 0.25 ppm Nitrate
mrsixstrings12
02/22/2015, 11:15 AM
Since this tank started out with a natural disaster, and since I'm *still* having random equipment failures, I've nicknamed it "Disaster Reef". Yesterday I installed a new Current USA Orbit Marine fixture + timer.. come this morning, it's already completely unresponsive. +1 for Disaster reef.
I've got the Hydor Smart ATO in place with an aqualifter. The top offs take forever since the aqualifter only dribbles top off water, but after thinking about it since I'm adding it straight to the display tank that's probably a good thing. The first Aqualifter was DOA.. +1 Disaster reef.
I decided that since I can get called away to respond to emergencies at the hospital occasionally, an Apex just made sense since I could keep an eye on things while I was away. I ordered up an Apex Jr, but since my light crapped out I'm seriously considering returning the Jr for a standard Apex and ditching this Current USA light for something compatible with the Apex.
Any suggestions on lights that would work with a 30" wide, 20" deep tank that would play nice with the Apex and not bankrupt me? I can't say I have a strong interest in SPS (at least not yet) but a year or so from now I'd like to be able to keep an anemone and as I understand it they need fairly bright light. A brain coral would be cool, and I think that's LPS? Other than that most of the ones I like are soft corals or LPS. I think I'll be going slow in that area given the trouble I've had, but I'd like to get equipment I won't have to replace in a year
As for the cycle:
2/18 2.0 ppm Amm, 1.0 ppm Nitite, 0.0 ppm Nitrate
2/20 0.5 ppm Amm, 0.25 ppm Nitrite, 0.25 ppm Nitrate
As for lights with the apex, anything will be able to be plugged in and turned on/off with the timer. You'll have to spend a little more dough to get ones that it will be able to ramp up and whatnot. I use 2 cheap "Evergrow" LED fixtures and I never had an issue with not enough light for corals.
LeRenard
02/24/2015, 08:44 AM
I took a water sample with me down to the LFS and had them check it with the refractometer.. 1.026 on the nose. I'm not surprised, I bought it premixed (at a different store) and it was 1.026 to start with and I've been downright retentive about topping up exactly. ATC refractometer ordered!
Just an update on that. The ATC refractometer arrived, and I calibrated it with 35 ppt fluid and checked quite a few samples. Do you know what it read? 1.019. EXACTLY what my Tropic Marin hydrometer had read and was reading (well, a little less, because I'd topped up the tank a bit more when installing the ATO)
I had about half of a 5 gallon pail left from when I'd purchased the premixed water, so I checked that.. 1.020.
So several lessons learned.. 1) Trust your LFS, but verify. 2) It's worth investing in good diagnostic equipment up front.
I've slowly brought it up to 1.0265 and the refractometer and Tropic Marin hydrometer agree now. My swing arm hydrometer reads 1.030, so that will probably become landfill. The ATO seems to keep the tank very stable.
LeRenard
02/24/2015, 06:34 PM
I checked the tank tonight, day 14:
2/24 0 ppm Ammonia, 0 ppm Nitrite, .25-.5 Nitrate, 80.5 degrees F, 1.026 salinity
So how do I test now to see if it's cycled? Throw in another shrimp? I've been unable to find any pure ammonia nearby or I'd dose that :/ Do I keep ghost feeding?
Deinonych
02/24/2015, 09:02 PM
I checked the tank tonight, day 14:
2/24 0 ppm Ammonia, 0 ppm Nitrite, .25-.5 Nitrate, 80.5 degrees F, 1.026 salinity
So how do I test now to see if it's cycled? Throw in another shrimp? I've been unable to find any pure ammonia nearby or I'd dose that :/ Do I keep ghost feeding?
When I cycle tanks, I like to use ammonium chloride, as I can measure it directly. I know my tank is fully cycled when it will process 3ppm ammonia to nitrate in 24 hours or less (i.e. no ammonia or nitrite after 24 hours). At that point, it can handle the bioload of a couple small fish easily.
It usually takes a few weeks to get to that point, but I've always used dry rock.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.