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Ingasar
02/16/2015, 09:57 AM
I am having trouble decreasing my phosphates below 0.4 in my 250g fowler tank with 75g refugium and now have gha growing on the rocks.

I have tried many water changes, gfo, and now phosguard, with no good results.

After reading through the vinegar dosing posts it seems as though it is being suggested that the vinegar chart dosing is too low.

What would you suggest as the vinegar starting dose?

I am currently running phosguard in a reactor. Should I stop that after initiating vinegar dosing?

250g 5x3x27- asm g3 protein skimmer, Tunze turbelle stream 6125 3150g/min, hydor Korallia 1400 GPH (4), 75g refugium

jason2459
02/16/2015, 10:03 AM
It's better to start to low then to high. Starting with that chart is not a bad idea and go up slowly each week and keep testing when the nitrates start dropping and wait there. If they don't get to target range then increase the dosage.

From what's been mentioned it's common to see anywhere between .4 to .8 ml per gallon of system volume per day. I dose ~100ml per day in about 200 gallons of system volume so I'm with in that range. If I dose more I get more bacterial growth but don't see any appreciable lowering of nutrients. If I dose less then I see an increase in nitrates.

So, the end point will vary in each system as there are many variables involved. If your phosphates are really high I would still use a GFO based product to get them down to your target range and then scale back on GFO usage and see if the carbon dosing will help maintain the levels.

Ingasar
02/16/2015, 10:14 AM
How much do I need to worry about the ph decreasing?

jason2459
02/16/2015, 10:16 AM
To start with most likely not at all. By the end state you may want to look at splitting it up and dosing only while the lights are on. I dose via 1.1ml/m pump set on a multi timer to dose a few minutes at a time through out the day. Mainly I did that out of convenience and was manually bolus dosing before that.

Other options are if you are using kalk/lime water you add it to that. But you'll want to research more on that option if you want to go this route.

bertoni
02/16/2015, 11:08 AM
With the phosphate level that high, I'd probably keep the PhosGuard going. It probably is exhausted within a few hours. When the phosphate level in the output of the reactor measures the same as the tank, the media is shot.

rfgonzo
02/16/2015, 11:28 AM
Side note, vinegar dosing does not bring phosphates down nearly as much as nitrates. Vodka dosing works better on phosphates. Both methods are used primarily to control not reduce. If you're going to reduce you should definitely run GFO or Phosguard.

jason2459
02/16/2015, 11:39 AM
Side note, vinegar dosing does not bring phosphates down nearly as much as nitrates. Vodka dosing works better on phosphates. Both methods are used primarily to control not reduce. If you're going to reduce you should definitely run GFO or Phosguard.

Now you've perked my ears with that comment. I've always had slightly elevated amounts of phosphates. Have always used vinegar and haven't seen it reduce the phosphates. But once I get the phosphates down to a range I can accept using GFO I can take it offline and be maintained by the vinegar dosing plus other regular filtering/maintenance methods. But as long as I don't expect ultra low levels. I can normally maintain them around .04 -.08. But to get any lower I have to use GFO. Stop and the levels go back up to around that range which I've been ok with as I don't normally have nuisance algae growth in the display.

So, using vodka mixed in you're saying I could possibly lower the phosphates even more and maintain them there? Though my Duncan would be really angry at me for doing so. It does not like drops in the level of phosphates and lets me know.

tmz
02/16/2015, 11:58 AM
Side note, vinegar dosing does not bring phosphates down nearly as much as nitrates. Vodka dosing works better on phosphates. Both methods are used primarily to control not reduce. If you're going to reduce you should definitely run GFO or Phosguard.

Why do you think vodka brings phosphate down more so than vinegar? I use a combination of the two ,it reduces phosphate and nitrate abeit very slowly on existing high nitrate at the start .

Ingasar
02/16/2015, 12:02 PM
Can I mix vodka and vinegar together in the same container for dosing?

jason2459
02/16/2015, 12:04 PM
Can I mix vodka and vinegar together in the same container for dosing?

Here's a great thread on different ratio's
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985&page=7

jason2459
02/16/2015, 12:06 PM
Side note, vinegar dosing does not bring phosphates down nearly as much as nitrates. Vodka dosing works better on phosphates. Both methods are used primarily to control not reduce. If you're going to reduce you should definitely run GFO or Phosguard.

Why do you think vodka brings phosphate down more so than vinegar? I use a combination of the two ,it reduces phosphate and nitrate abeit slowly on the nitrate at the start .

That's what I'm wondering as I've not heard anything different between the two in effectiveness in reducing phosphates. I've heard vodka has had a higher chance of an increase in cyano but that may be something entirely different. I've noticed in the past when I had algae issues and when my GHA or briopsis start to dwindle cyano likes to come out more and eventually it dies back as well. That was with just vinegar.

Ingasar
02/16/2015, 12:18 PM
If I wanted to dose both vinegar and vodka, would I do the full doses of each per chart or would the doses be additive?

jason2459
02/16/2015, 12:26 PM
If I wanted to dose both vinegar and vodka, would I do the full doses of each per chart or would the doses be additive?

no you wouldn't do full doses of each. That thread I linked to above has good recommendations on ratio's of each. Then you'd have to figure out how much to dose. Of course starting low and ramping up over time.

Personally, I'd just start with vinegar and as you ramp up decide if you want to start adding in a little bit of vodka. Or just continue to just use vinegar.

rfgonzo
02/16/2015, 01:29 PM
Vinegar dosing like other carbon source dosing will reduce phosphate, however it is a very slow process compared to nitrate reduction. Why, because bacteria utilize omuch more nitrate than phosphate to grow and multiply. The denitrification process described above is another reason why the process may be imbalanced toward more nitrate reduction than phosphate reduction. It is the skimming out of bacteria or consumption of them by higher organisms that reduces phosphate. The ratio bacteria utilize for ordinary growth, and the ratio that likely comes in with many foods is very roughly around 16 parts of nitrate per 1 part of phosphate, which is based on the percentage of nitrogen and phosphorus present in the basic biochemicals that make up all living cells. The ratio can vary tremendously, but the point is that one should expect a lot of nitrate reduction for each unit of phosphate reduction, even if cellular growth is the only process taking place..


For these reasons, if your phosphate is high and nitrate is low, then you should use another method like GFO to reduce phosphate back in line with the ratio above. Then vinegar dosing can be used to maintain the levels of nitrate and phosphate, but is not a preferred method to reduce high phosphate levels. Many folks may need to ultimately use an additional phosphate export method, such as GFO, even if the levels start out balanced because organic carbon addition can be imbalanced to more nitrate reduction for the reasons stated above.

From Randy Holmes Farley

bertoni
02/16/2015, 01:32 PM
I don't know of any specific reason that either vinegar or vodka would reduce phosphate more than the other, but there might be some differences in the microbes that grow. In any case, any living organism is going to need a lot more fixed nitrogen than phosphate.

jason2459
02/16/2015, 01:32 PM
Vinegar dosing like other carbon source dosing will reduce phosphate, however it is a very slow process compared to nitrate reduction. Why, because bacteria utilize omuch more nitrate than phosphate to grow and multiply. The denitrification process described above is another reason why the process may be imbalanced toward more nitrate reduction than phosphate reduction. It is the skimming out of bacteria or consumption of them by higher organisms that reduces phosphate. The ratio bacteria utilize for ordinary growth, and the ratio that likely comes in with many foods is very roughly around 16 parts of nitrate per 1 part of phosphate, which is based on the percentage of nitrogen and phosphorus present in the basic biochemicals that make up all living cells. The ratio can vary tremendously, but the point is that one should expect a lot of nitrate reduction for each unit of phosphate reduction, even if cellular growth is the only process taking place..


For these reasons, if your phosphate is high and nitrate is low, then you should use another method like GFO to reduce phosphate back in line with the ratio above. Then vinegar dosing can be used to maintain the levels of nitrate and phosphate, but is not a preferred method to reduce high phosphate levels. Many folks may need to ultimately use an additional phosphate export method, such as GFO, even if the levels start out balanced because organic carbon addition can be imbalanced to more nitrate reduction for the reasons stated above.

From Randy Holmes Farley

Yes, RHF is great stuff. But we've already suggested GFO a few times in the thread to reduce the phosphates down to maintenance levels.

I'm more curious where you got "Vodka dosing works better on phosphates." If it does then I'm all for it.

rfgonzo
02/16/2015, 01:53 PM
Yes, RHF is great stuff. But we've already suggested GFO a few times in the thread to reduce the phosphates down to maintenance levels.

I'm more curious where you got "Vodka dosing works better on phosphates." If it does then I'm all for it.

I'm still looking for the article, but the long short of it is ethanol and higher concentrations of carbon in vodka over vinegar. That's why people will mix 80% vinegar to 20% vodka, no need to dilute the mix. As soon as I can remember where the article is I will post it or if anyone else finds it before me, please post.

jason2459
02/16/2015, 01:57 PM
I'm still looking for the article, but the long short of it is ethanol and higher concentrations of carbon in vodka over vinegar. That's why people will mix 80% vinegar to 20% vodka, no need to dilute the mix. As soon as I can remember where the article is I will post it or if anyone else finds it before me, please post.

Would love to read the article. I assume it's not just talking about how vinegar is a much lower percentage of a carbon source ~5% vs. ~40% and just need to dose more of it. My understanding is vodka has to go through extra step(s?) to get to an acetic acid level where vinegar already starts. So, I would be curious if the process or bacteria involved consume more PO4.

rwb500
02/16/2015, 02:22 PM
I'm more curious where you got "Vodka dosing works better on phosphates." If it does then I'm all for it.

i'm 99.9% sure that this is not true. I've certainly never seen any evidence suggesting this, and I don't think anyone on RC has seen any evidence either. I also cannot imagine a possible mechanism by which this could occur.

bdare
02/16/2015, 02:29 PM
I noticed you said you have a refuguim. I'm assuming you have macro algae in growing in there? Do you every prune it?

Have you tried cutting back on feeding?

If it were me, I'd try to find the root cause rather than add more complexity to the tank.

Ingasar
02/16/2015, 07:34 PM
I do have a refugium with chaeto growing rather slowly. I have been rinsing my frozen pe mysis in rodi water also just in case.

jason2459
02/16/2015, 08:14 PM
Not really necessary to rinse unless it's for other reasons like skimmer overflowing or going really wet if you don't rinse.

I also don't like the idea of cutting back on feeding unless you're grossly over feeding.

Ingasar
02/17/2015, 09:09 AM
I want to mix 80% vinegar and 20% 80 proof vodka together for dosing. Do I then go by the vinegar dosing chart? Is there a separate dosing chart for this mixture?

bertoni
02/17/2015, 03:21 PM
The solution would be about 2.4 times as concentrated as vinegar. I'd just multiple the vinegar dose by 2.5. That'd be more than close enough.

Ingasar
02/17/2015, 04:52 PM
Do you mean to multiply the vodka dose or vinegar dose? Now you have me confused.

bertoni
02/17/2015, 05:38 PM
Argh! I should be more careful. Multiple the vinegar dose by 0.4 or so. :)

tmz
02/18/2015, 08:20 AM
Each ml of 80 proof vodka equals approximately 8ml of 5% acetic vinegar. So, for a solution of 80% vinegar and 20 % vodka ; it's 80% plus 160%(20% x 8) 240% or 2.4 times the amount of organic carbon in a solution of just vinegar.

For example , I use , 78% ethanol ( 36 ml 80 proof vodka ) plus 22% acetic acid ( 80 ml 5% acetic acid vinegar ) daily for 650 gallons of aquarium water.

Ingasar
02/18/2015, 10:02 AM
Please check my math.

I want to take a gallon of vinegar, remove 750 ml and add 750 ml of vodka (80 proof) to it. This will make an approx 80% vinegar to 20% vodka solution. I want to start the dosing of my 250g tank at 8 ml per day of this solution following the vinegar dosing chart.

How does that sound?

bertoni
02/18/2015, 11:59 AM
That likely will be fine. The chart is very conservative, in any case, but it indicates that 2.5 ml would be fine for that mixture, assuming 200g of actual water volume.

tmz
02/18/2015, 12:06 PM
750 divided by 3785 mil in a gallon = 19.8%. The solution you propose will be about 2.5 times the strength of 5% acetic acid vinegar as Jonathan and I indicated earlier. So, mulitply the 8ml by 2.4 and see where it fits on the vinegar chart you wish to follow or divide it by 3.33 to follow a vodka chart.

Another way : 3785 ml vinegar - 750 = 3035 vinegar + 750 vodka x8 = 6000 vinegar equivalents for a total of : 9085 vinegar equivalents in the 3785 ml(1gallon ) of solution ;9085 divided by 3785 =2.4.

Ingasar
03/07/2015, 03:28 PM
I started the dosing today with the vinegar/ 20%vodka solution at 3.5cc/day for the 1st 3 days then increasing according to the vinegar chart divided by 2.4. I'm using a dosing pump.

Multiple water changes and gfo changes and phosphate is still .1. Nitrate is zero. still have gha though it doesn't appear to be getting worse, just staying the same. I'm now trying the spectrapure phosphate removal as something different.

Has anyone tried adding bacteria along with starting vinegar/vodka dosing to speed up the process?

bertoni
03/07/2015, 06:16 PM
People have added various products when starting with carbon dosing, but I don't know of any data to show that it helps.

Mcgeezer
03/07/2015, 07:28 PM
From what I've been told, vinegar dosing works best when it is mixed in kalkwasser saturated top off water. It will also boost the potency of your ca/Dkh input from the limewater by almost 30%. I believe randy Holmes Farley is the one that said this.

Couldn't begin to tell you the science behind it, but all I can tell you is that when I started doing it, I noticed a dramatic difference in my tank within a week. Significantly better sps polyp extension, very drastic color increase in corals, and less cyano in dead spots.

I have zero algae in my tank other then a small amount of cyano mentioned in low flow zones, run rowaphos in a reactor for phosphate control, along with a mini custom made acrylic refugium with mangroves and fern caulerpa in a Berlin sump next to my skimmer.

jason2459
03/07/2015, 07:39 PM
If you have a high calcium demand then adding some vinegar to your lime water will allow more kalk to dissolve increasing the amount of calcium and alk you'll dose. So, that would be a good thing. Otherwise be cautious of over dosing creating a large alk or pH spike.

bertoni
03/08/2015, 08:24 AM
Adding vinegar to Kalkwasser allows you to dissolve more Kalk into solution, which can be useful, but vinegar can be dosed on its own.

tmz
03/08/2015, 09:48 AM
The heterotrophic bacteria spurred by organic carbon dosing are ubiquitous and grow relatively fast. They wax when organic carbon sources are provided.
Most commercial bacteria concoctions are sold asserting they speed the chemoautotrophic nitrification process . They are likely to have different bacteria if any that are useful. In any case , IME there is no benefit or indication that adding commercial bacerial mixes speeds the process.

IME, vinegar dosing and kalk dosing work better and are easier to manage when done independently. Spiking kalk with vinegar is a method used by some to increase kalk saturation levels and buffer the pH effect of the vinegar. Dosing the vinegar slowly eliminates any precipitous pH drop though.

Ingasar
03/10/2015, 08:03 PM
I'm running a uv light. Does that have any negative effect to the growth of bacteria from the vodka/vinegar dosing?

jason2459
03/10/2015, 09:45 PM
I'm running a uv light. Does that have any negative effect to the growth of bacteria from the vodka/vinegar dosing?

Minimal. As most your bacteria will be on surfaces. If anything it'll help if there's a bacterial bloom clouding up the water.

tmz
03/10/2015, 10:57 PM
UV will kill the bacteria in the water column. I personally stopped using uv when I started dosing organic carbon. IMO. live planktonic bacteria are useful in the food chain and killing them is not one of my goals.

Ingasar
03/11/2015, 09:59 AM
Did you notice any problems after stopping the UV. I have an issue with gha still. My last p04 was .05, but thats down from .1.

tmz
03/11/2015, 03:56 PM
None, whatsoever. the reocks may be leaching it and it may take some time fro the algae to wane assuming it's hair algea nd not bryospis . The later seems to do ok in low nuteint water,unfortunately.

Ingasar
03/13/2015, 10:39 AM
P04 is zero today. I'm not sure if it's from the gfo, or carbon dosing or both.

tmz
03/13/2015, 01:14 PM
Probably both. I might back of the GFO if it stays at zero.

dkeller_nc
03/13/2015, 01:31 PM
I'd also recommend freezing your carbon dosing amount where it is (or maybe even back off a little). If your nitrates/phosphates are very low (or where you want them), extra vinegar/vodka may simply produce more bacteria than you skimmer can handle.

Ingasar
03/13/2015, 07:44 PM
I am also 1 week into using spectrazorb phosphate remover. My lfs said people swear by this stuff. I called up Spectrapure today to find out what it is and they would not say. They did say that it is not gfo though. I just want to make sure it's safe. I certainly have had a big response from that and the carbon. Does anyone have experience with this?

My Gha is still present but seems to be getting better.

jason2459
03/13/2015, 07:50 PM
I am also 1 week into using spectrazorb phosphate remover. My lfs said people swear by this stuff. I called up Spectrapure today to find out what it is and they would not say. They did say that it is not gfo though. I just want to make sure it's safe. I certainly have had a big response from that and the carbon. Does anyone have experience with this?

My Gha is still present but seems to be getting better.
Is it white? I would assume its aluminum based if its not gfo. Either way I would hesitate to use it if it is aluminum based or for the fact they won't say. I like to know what I'm putting into my water as much as possible.

bertoni
03/13/2015, 08:07 PM
I'd guess alumina, too, but it's hard to be sure.