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View Full Version : Acropora tissue bubbling. Disease?


asylumdown
02/17/2015, 08:49 PM
I've had some ups and downs with my mainly SPS tank over the last year, something disastrous happened last february that wiped out half the tank that I was never able to explain, and then in the summer after things were finally on the up and up there was a renovation in my house that took out about half of what was left. Since then things have been pretty much recovering and I've added new coral to replace what died, but I've been having a heck of a time keeping alk and calcium up as the corals that were unaffected (mainly montipora species) have grown to gargantuan proportions.

The entire year I've been experiencing this issue - select colonies of acropora will develop what looks like tiny balloons in the tissue of their growth tips. As soon as it starts, the growth tip starts growing all stunted and weird. I thought It was pretty much done, but woke up this morning to find one long branch that has grown on one of my colonies in the last month just covered in them. It happened literally over-night.


Has anyone experienced this before? Is it a disease?

SneekaPeek
02/18/2015, 08:32 AM
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee466/desjardini/IMG_6319-1_zpsa531e925.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/desjardini/media/IMG_6319-1_zpsa531e925.jpg.html)

I have experienced symptoms like the above picture. best thing to do is check your major 3 alk cal mag. I found a problem with my alk being low caused by bad batches of tropic marin reef pro salt. changed salt, and the problem went away. I think it causes the tissue to reproduce at a faster rate than the skeleton can keep up with.

asylumdown
02/18/2015, 09:22 AM
Mine don't look quite like that. I'll try to take a pic tonight with my underwater camera.

SneekaPeek
02/18/2015, 09:13 PM
Mine don't look quite like that. I'll try to take a pic tonight with my underwater camera.

sweet look forward to help diagnose
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u88/lukewoehler/100_4136.jpg
anything like this?

asylumdown
02/18/2015, 10:25 PM
These pics are of two colonies, one's a purple bonsai, I don't know what the other is. I tried to take from different angles with and without the flash. Photo bucket, of course destroys the quality of the image.

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/IMG_7923_zpsx6nk7kc3.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/IMG_7923_zpsx6nk7kc3.jpg.html)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/IMG_7909_zpsklt35cuq.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/IMG_7909_zpsklt35cuq.jpg.html)

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/IMG_7916_zpsamapvhc3.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/IMG_7916_zpsamapvhc3.jpg.html)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/IMG_7914_zpscnl1czbc.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/IMG_7914_zpscnl1czbc.jpg.html)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/IMG_7913_zpsizyhxxqz.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/IMG_7913_zpsizyhxxqz.jpg.html)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/IMG_7919_zpscyk1argi.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/IMG_7919_zpscyk1argi.jpg.html)

On the second coral this happened in the space of 3 days. One day it looked perfectly healthy, the next it looked like it had broken out in water filled warts.

Oldude
02/18/2015, 10:28 PM
Bacterial infection??

asylumdown
02/18/2015, 10:38 PM
That's what I'm wondering. When things got really bad in the tank last February and I was losing corals like it was my job, this was happening to all of them. The only thing I could ever really pin that mess on was a drastic change in the way I was using biopellets - it's a long story but even though they'd been on the tank since day one I did some things that was the equivalent of starting up a brand new biopellet reactor on an established tank with about 15 times more pellets than recommended.

Other than a brief re-attempt at pellets in the spring (which immediately preceded a second mini wave of coral losses) I haven't used them. I have been using Orco labs nitra guard biocubes via the bomb method for the last four-ish months, however.

At this stage it's just these two corals. Both got hammered hard in the first wave of damage last february, and nearly bit it completely when they replaced the porcelain floors in my house in August, so they've been teetering on the edge for a while, but both were recovering really well - I cut away most everything that had died, there's lots of healthy, fresh new growth, tissue looking OK... then a couple weeks ago this starts up on the bonsai again, and that second coral only began turning in to that warted mess on the weekend.

asylumdown
02/18/2015, 10:54 PM
The only other thing I can think is that it's maybe allelopathy of some sort? It's a pretty mixed reef - overwhelmingly dominated by acropora and montipora, but I do have a small collection of ricordias, a giant elegance coral, two very large frogspawns (one's about the size of softball, the other a basketball), a couple trachyphyllias, fungias, and acans and favids.

I've had most of my LPS and soft corals for the better part of three years so the acros have been in the tank with them for a good long while. The LPS and softies were all teeny tiny little frags when I got them so they didn't seem like they would ever be an issue, but at this point they're approaching the biggest things in the tank in some cases.

SneekaPeek
02/18/2015, 11:43 PM
once you dip these corals on the infected area do they end up looking like the second pic I showed? have you dipped your infected corals? whats your temp? and major 3 levels? what kind of test kit? have you cross referenced your specific gravity with other reefers? I ask these questions because to narrow the cause down, you'll have to go through such procedures to find out if your water is off. If all else is well, than you can start looking at the strands as the causal. I found in the past that my corals would bubble (1st pic showed), then after dipped they would end up with the hard skeleton with minimal amounts of tissue (2nd pic showed). It only affected select few corals and the rest looked damn near perfect in health. any info on your system would be fantastic.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2468109

sorry to put you on the spot, but this thread is pretty recent, please check your alk and let me know what your levels are at. When I had problems with stony corals such as abnormal growths, I knew my alk was not in check. last I remember my alk was in the 6dkh range before I switched salts, now I keep mine hovering 7.7ish range with no problems whatsoever.

asylumdown
02/19/2015, 05:51 PM
My alk was low for a long time, in the 6 range. I've got some huge montiporas I couldn't keep up with. I bought a new doser (my old one was sad and inconsistent) and it's now up in the 7.2-7.5 range.

This most recent round of bubbling only began after I got the dKH up back in to the 7s, and when it first started a year ago my dKH was 9.

And I haven't dipped these corals. They're not really removable without a traumatic amount of fragging. The bonsai is 14"x16" viewed top down, and the "trunk" part that's fused to the rock is 6" around. The smaller one I suppose I can do, but it's already pretty stressed so I'm not sure if it would survive. Might be worth it to try dipping a piece and see what happens.

SneekaPeek
02/19/2015, 11:36 PM
I was reading online about o2 and co2 levels could be the cause. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2086636

well anyways keep a close eye on the infected areas and don't change things drastically. Are any of the infected corals showing signs of tissue necrosis?

I had problems of fluctuating alk causing similar symptoms. Any more info on your system would be great. and let us know how things go.

billyzbear
02/20/2015, 02:31 AM
I'm not sure this is the same. A club member described something like this. Found it was bacterial caused by the new brand of biopellets. I would have to ask him about it. Do you use biopellets?

jackson6745
02/20/2015, 05:00 AM
I get this on my oregon tort when I dose Sponge Power consistently for sometime (smells like vinegar). I've also gotten this in the past when vinegar dosing. Never noticed any correlation with Alk, cal, and mg levels. It's almost always carbon source related, from what I have seen in other tanks.

larcat
02/24/2015, 12:30 PM
Hi.

I just posted a similar thread -- Yours is brand new. There is almost no info about this problem on the interwebs.

We haven't had any losses associated with it, no crashes or anything. Growth and color is still really good on our coral despite this. Impacts both Montis and Acros. Smooth skinned acros hit the hardest.

Alk/Calc/Mag all are right in line (~8, ~420, ~1300.)

No one seems to know.

Edit -- We don't carbon dose. Only dosing we do is 2 part, and regular water changes. Just added Carbon last weekend incase it is allelopathy.

Panta rhei
02/24/2015, 12:42 PM
I had this one year ago, at the end I think it was due to very high Mg 1600+, from a not well mixed batch of Red Sea Coral Pro.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/24/dfceecbd6c557b33b647c491dd0abd0c.jpg

larcat
02/24/2015, 12:43 PM
Did it go away, and what did recovery look like?

I had this one year ago, at the end I think it was due to very high Mg 1600+, from a not well mixed batch of Red Sea Coral Pro.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/24/dfceecbd6c557b33b647c491dd0abd0c.jpg

Panta rhei
02/24/2015, 03:07 PM
It took months to go away, now the coral is showing no marks where the bubbles were.

SneekaPeek
02/24/2015, 08:25 PM
has anyone dipped their infected corals? any productive results with that method?

Panta rhei
02/24/2015, 10:19 PM
I tried CoralRx but did not notice any improvement.

SneekaPeek
02/24/2015, 11:44 PM
I tried CoralRx but did not notice any improvement.

gotcha, for what its worth, select few of my coral were looking like the first pic I posted and after I dipped looked like the second pic. healed after alk issues were solved. I was using biopellets, but like 50ml in a 65g system so it had little effect. was using the biopellet pearls.

trueblackpercula
02/25/2015, 05:06 AM
Very interesting. I had this happening one time and my calcium was very high in the 600s and magnesium was at 1600.

larcat
02/25/2015, 06:03 PM
Our calc is fine according to Hannah. Old threads point at mag, and I don't trust our mag kit. Just bought a brand new salifert, will test soon. I expect it to be fine though as alk and ca are rock solid.


Very interesting. I had this happening one time and my calcium was very high in the 600s and magnesium was at 1600.

Reef Bass
02/25/2015, 06:38 PM
FWIW, I ran my mag at 1800 intentionally for a while to combat bryopsis and my acros never blistered.

From what I've heard from others who have experienced acro blistering, carbon dosing is often a common element.

rc4kinu
02/25/2015, 08:34 PM
I had recently lost an A. aculeus from blistering after I changed my GFO. It was the only coral affected. I used a tad bid more than recommended for my size tank because I thought what was left in the tub was inconsequential. Moral of the story...less is more with regards to GFO.

reefmutt
02/25/2015, 08:55 PM
I'm on the big three issue band wagon. I think that when you mentioned in your first post that you've had trouble keeping calcium and alk up, this is the issue.
I have seen this before, long time ago before the development of pellets, it was always due to chemical imbalances... Just my experience..

larcat
02/25/2015, 09:43 PM
No gfo here. Big three consistently test bang on with Hannah/red sea.

larcat
02/26/2015, 08:01 AM
Also, no carbon dosing though we do feed relatively heavily.


No gfo here. Big three consistently test bang on with Hannah/red sea.

larcat
02/26/2015, 08:50 AM
Thread I hadn't seen after reading what I thought was the entire collection of tubes about this issue. Borneman quote. No real answer. Rehashes the standard superstitions, to wit:

1) Too much photosynthesis.
2) Big 3 imbalance.
3) Carbon dosing.

It is all snake oil.

I'm becoming somewhat determined. Impacts about 90% of our sps.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792536

larcat
02/26/2015, 09:32 AM
Link to the best thread I found ~ 6 months ago when doing my due diligence. More Borneman quotes on page 2. No solution.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=913886&page=2

larcat
02/26/2015, 09:41 AM
Another good thread, ends in the same Borneman quotes.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=800526&page=2

larcat
02/26/2015, 06:00 PM
So, after having read the entire internet about this again, still just as stumped.

Anyone have an idea of how to proceed investigating this?

AugustWest
02/26/2015, 11:13 PM
So, after having read the entire internet about this again, still just as stumped.

Anyone have an idea of how to proceed investigating this?

I've had the same issue, you probably came across my thread when you were searching. Never found an answer myself. The most popular theory is High calcium or magnesium, which was never a problem in my case.

larcat
02/27/2015, 06:10 AM
Did yours eventually subside? If so, what did recovery look like?

I've had the same issue, you probably came across my thread when you were searching. Never found an answer myself. The most popular theory is High calcium or magnesium, which was never a problem in my case.

AugustWest
02/27/2015, 09:05 AM
Did yours eventually subside? If so, what did recovery look like?

I ended up getting rid of the colonies affected ( Oregon Tort and Cali Tort) The tissue was pretty badly deformed, bumpy texture, weird tips, etc. They were beyond hope.

I just wanted them out of the tank. I never had an issue with the big3 being out of whack.
I had a theory it was caused by too much flow but was never sure. At the time I was researching it Biopellets seemed to be in use by a few with the issue.

No conclusive answer but I have since removed Biopellets and I have a tankful of SPS and the problem has not reoccurred.....knock wood

AugustWest
02/27/2015, 09:13 AM
Here's a link to my thread with some pics of the affected colonies.http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2423837

larcat
02/27/2015, 10:27 AM
Accidentally necroed it :P Sorry.

Mine looks just like yours -- Great color, lots of growth, totally ugly

Talk more about your flow theory... Was your flow unidirectionalish? Were you running a peninsula by any chance?

Clarification -- I'm running what is basically a 40b peninsula with 2 x MP10 that are very random (i.e custom program in Apex that results in stronger, more random flow than just antisynch reefcrest would be able to achieve.)

I don't want less flow, but I have thought about going back to short pulse, or just turning them down... Increased flow helped the SPS encrust, polyp extension etc. though....


Here's a link to my thread with some pics of the affected colonies.http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2423837

larcat
02/27/2015, 12:23 PM
Man, down the rabbit hole....

The exact same threads going back a decade.... No one with any idea what it is.

I'll be at the DD openhouse in March, and I'll ask the wizards up there if they have an idea.

Rather than guessing what it is, can anyone else think of any true experts to ask what their thoughts are?

I reached out to Adam at Battle Corals already. His answer was basically "No one has any clue. It doesn't seem to hurt them, it is just ugly. Don't worry too much about it."

I'll try to get some pics of mine up. Very "standard."

larcat
02/28/2015, 01:59 PM
Want to keep this discussion going. Anyone have any ideas?

larcat
03/01/2015, 10:01 AM
Bump! Want to keep this fresh.

AugustWest
03/01/2015, 02:19 PM
I wish you luck, all the threads I've seen on this just kinda die. Not any answers to be found out there. I've read that it's not all that uncommon, wonder why such limited info ?

SneekaPeek
03/01/2015, 03:05 PM
I honestly think that it is an adaptation mechanism that the corals employ due to an inconsistent environment. for example changing from tank to tank, different levels throughout each system, and such acroporids do not ever exit the water in the wild. Some do, leave the water in low tide, however I have not witnessed any bushy type acros experience bumps such as the a.valida. I have never seen this on any maricultured pieces. only the branded named acros that have been named as healthy aquacultured pieces. I have gotten to the point where if its infected with such a thing, ill hold onto it until it heals, but use it as a guide to help me understand at a very vague level. If others believe it is very benign, then no need to worry, unless someone believes its a total eye sore. Im more keen on observation and caring for the sick, that is, if it is sick. Some will say chuck it if it is.

larcat
03/01/2015, 03:21 PM
We are doing maintainence now. I'll post some pics so you can see what healthy-unhealthy looks like :p


I honestly think that it is an adaptation mechanism that the corals employ due to an inconsistent environment. for example changing from tank to tank, different levels throughout each system, and such acroporids do not ever exit the water in the wild. Some do, leave the water in low tide, however I have not witnessed any bushy type acros experience bumps such as the a.valida. I have never seen this on any maricultured pieces. only the branded named acros that have been named as healthy aquacultured pieces. I have gotten to the point where if its infected with such a thing, ill hold onto it until it heals, but use it as a guide to help me understand at a very vague level. If others believe it is very benign, then no need to worry, unless someone believes its a total eye sore. Im more keen on observation and caring for the sick, that is, if it is sick. Some will say chuck it if it is.

larcat
03/01/2015, 03:24 PM
Just tested big 3 for the first time in a while. Alk is a little high at 9.4, calc a little low at 400. Totally within normal carotene for our salt and 2 part dosing though. Mag confirmed with a brand new salifert kit at ~ 1200, which confirms our old red sea. I don't think, for us, it is a big 3 problem.

SneekaPeek
03/01/2015, 04:24 PM
We are doing maintainence now. I'll post some pics so you can see what healthy-unhealthy looks like :p

Yippeeee! :hmm5:
such pieces have character hahahahah.

larcat
03/01/2015, 07:17 PM
Yippeeee! :hmm5:
such pieces have character hahahahah.

Here goes: I'm going to post healthy corals with minimal/no blistering first. Trying to choose common/well known corals so you can see what our tank looks like "normally." Everything here is grown from frags. Two worst examples of blistering come second.

I cropped all images, and everything was auto-white-balanced in GIMP.

First, GARF Bonsai frag. This was given to us as a completely flat frag plug -- Buddy had chopped off all the branching growth and gave us the encrusted plug about 3 months ago...

http://i.imgur.com/st0Sr3X.jpg

Joe The Coral. We've abused this guy badly over the course of the last year :)

http://i.imgur.com/1y03IxS.jpg

Red Planet. I keep chopping off big chunks of this one.

http://i.imgur.com/NFmLKXk.jpg

Tubs Stellata Monti. One of my absolute favs.

http://i.imgur.com/Fw9KyeU.jpg

NOW! Healthy - Unhealthy. Jason Fox Mr. Yuck first. This was another one given to us as a flat frag plug, just the encrustation (same time as the Bonsai.)

Tell me the color is bad....

http://i.imgur.com/6Iozvts.jpg

Mr. Pac Man (ish, no lineage.) This used to have normal smoothie growth... Again, tell me the color is bad.... We've chopped this one up a bunch of times. Grows quick.... With blisters :(

http://i.imgur.com/Bv18xZa.jpg

Same Mr. Pac Man from the side... (Light messed with this one, but wanted a zoom in on the blisters....)

http://i.imgur.com/38DoUmF.jpg


So frustrating.

SneekaPeek
03/01/2015, 08:40 PM
Have you taken any of these acros and put them in someone else's tank to see how it reacts? and have you dipped any of these corals to see how they react?

larcat
03/01/2015, 08:46 PM
At least one acro we were holding for a friend had the blisters disappear in his tank after he took it.

Haven't tried dipping. What would be the pest?



Have you taken any of these acros and put them in someone else's tank to see how it reacts? and have you dipped any of these corals to see how they react?

SneekaPeek
03/01/2015, 11:55 PM
At least one acro we were holding for a friend had the blisters disappear in his tank after he took it.

Haven't tried dipping. What would be the pest?

see its very strange as to why it occurs in some people's systems and not in others. Therefore I don't believe its the strand that causes the bumps. im not sure what kind of pest it is, however in my case once I dipped my corals with issues they healed shortly after. not many people have even heard about this so not much info out there. maybe its time to step up your bio game and research it further with microscopic tests wink wink. youd probably be the first of its kind. im struggling at this time to even get water changes done haha. sooo lazzzy.

AugustWest
03/02/2015, 09:15 AM
Yep, same issue I had. Are the majority of your SPS affected by this or just a few?

larcat
03/02/2015, 10:03 AM
At this point, the majority. Some very minorly, but just a couple not at all.


Yep, same issue I had. Are the majority of your SPS affected by this or just a few?

larcat
03/02/2015, 10:10 AM
Could you talk about why you think it might have been flow related? I've wondered that also... Our tank is a small peninsula, and the flow is more unidirectional than I would prefer....



Yep, same issue I had. Are the majority of your SPS affected by this or just a few?

larcat
03/02/2015, 10:40 AM
Another Borneman quote:

"As you guys have found on your own, this has been reported quite a bit. I do not know what causes it, either, but it could be related to the ballooning behaviors of other corals, including the coral polyps extrusions. As noted, I suspect it is largely related to water parameters. Coral tissue can lift up from the calcioblastic epithelium and form pockets, but these normally are still highly fixed to skeleton by desmosomes. I am unsure if it is forced by water params, or a deficiency of desmosomes. It does not seem to have any function like with extrusions (although the extrusions are common in aquarium corals but not in the wild, so this might also be abnormal). "

larcat
03/02/2015, 11:15 AM
Low pH issue maybe? Our tank has definetly gone through periods of low pH. Below quote is from the following article... They decalcified to study the desmosomes....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=rKb0VK6VNsqrNuCqg6gB&url=http://www2.fiu.edu/~goldberg/2001b.pdf&ved=0CCIQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHaJdCkRtPWM0sBC4PpThpj0r__GQ&sig2=bt0lBLOF1uHhe9Ew9_iyNQ

"Microwave treatment with citric acid for 2 h only
slightly decalci®es the corallum but is frequently suf®-
cient to lift well-®xed calicoblastic tissues from the cor-
allum, revealing the impressions of the irregular septal
tubercles, as well as those surrounding and protruding
from the skeletal centers"

larcat
03/02/2015, 11:38 AM
More reading that may relate --- Holmes Farley this time. As an aside, I don't have a phos test I trust so I haven't tested in some time. We have very minor pest algae issues, so we haven't worried too much about it. A friend had one of the high end photo test kits, and when I used it some months ago, we do have slightly elevated phos... ~ .07.... Maybe calcification issue brought on by elevated phos and low pH together?

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/4/chemistry

larcat
03/02/2015, 11:44 AM
The original thread, from 2004, where that most recent Borneman quote is from...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414676

larcat
03/03/2015, 09:53 AM
Keeping this alive. Too common of a problem for no one to have a clue.

larcat
03/03/2015, 10:32 AM
For those of you that have dealt with this: Did you have any periods of very low pH?

larcat
03/04/2015, 08:00 AM
Mostly a bump to keep this current.

Anyone know any experts I could reach out to?

SneekaPeek
03/04/2015, 08:18 AM
Mostly a bump to keep this current.

Anyone know any experts I could reach out to?

maybe call up an oceanography/marine biology department at certain universities and they might be able to help. I know scripps down in san diego la jolla area would be a great place for me to start, however I have no acros with symptoms. other than that, keep up the ongoing struggle no matter how gloomy things get. Ill ask around the industry when I get the chance.

AugustWest
03/04/2015, 08:56 AM
Could you talk about why you think it might have been flow related? I've wondered that also... Our tank is a small peninsula, and the flow is more unidirectional than I would prefer....

I understand your frustration. I was in the same spot you were. Unfortunately the answers just aren't out there. Every thread I've found just died out, including my own.

As far as your recent questions I never had really low PH. Pretty steady at 8.1-8.2

The reason I considered flow is that I was running an MP40 and an MP10 both at 100%. For a 30"x30" tank that is quite a bit. It was random though (Reefcrest and Nutrient Transport mode on occasion) so who knows?

Good luck in your quest. Report back here if you find any info. Sorry I'm not much help.

larcat
03/04/2015, 10:37 AM
Thanks for that. I'm going to be at live aquaria/diver's den at the end of the month for the open house, and I will talk to them about it there.

I'm also going to see if I can make contact with someone from the Shedd locally maybe.

maybe call up an oceanography/marine biology department at certain universities and they might be able to help. I know scripps down in san diego la jolla area would be a great place for me to start, however I have no acros with symptoms. other than that, keep up the ongoing struggle no matter how gloomy things get. Ill ask around the industry when I get the chance.

larcat
03/04/2015, 10:42 AM
The reason I considered flow is that I was running an MP40 and an MP10 both at 100%. For a 30"x30" tank that is quite a bit. It was random though (Reefcrest and Nutrient Transport mode on occasion) so who knows?


Our tank is 17x34x17 with 2 MP10s plus ~ 500 gph on the return. Peninsula layout, so both MP10s on the short end with the return as well. Been a constant struggle to not have unidirectional flow. Standing wave resulted in relatively constant undertow, so couldn't keep that going, ended up with what you did basically -- 100% reef crest and occasional nutrient transport.

I recently switched to asynch long pulse. Finally am seeing a reveral in current directions, and certain corals look happier than they have in a while (dendros most notably -- they had good color etc, but were "stringy")

We had had malformed growth in our thin branched smooth skins before the blisters started that was obviously attributable to unidirectional flow -- branches curving like wind-swept trees, that sort of thing. That made me switch to the standing wave, which fixed that problem, but resulted in the strong under tow which hammered our sand-bed LPS.....

As per new info -- I think I may have found some scholarly work pertaining... I'll post up links when I get home from work today. Bad news is, no road to recovery in the literature I'm looking at :(

larcat
03/04/2015, 05:19 PM
Neoplasia I think..... Several articles, but it could be one of the other "abnormal growth" diseases.

I spoke with a very nice person at ORA who asked me to send an email in with pictures, which I have done.

If any one was wondering, here is a before/after shot. These are some of the pics I sent ORA:

Pac Man about 2-3 months after we got it. Doubled in size, polyps out, nice and smooth.

http://i.imgur.com/IvqnfS6.jpg?1

Pac-Man today:

http://i.imgur.com/38DoUmF.jpg

larcat
03/04/2015, 11:13 PM
For posterity, the oldest reference I've found: Aussie forum, 2003. Contains further evidence that it is environmental ( frags moved to friends tank grew normally.)

http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=16019

larcat
03/04/2015, 11:24 PM
And finally, something tangible, courtesy of the way back machine...

https://web.archive.org/web/20081008033833/http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mccarty_and_peters/coral/Neoplasm.htm

larcat
03/04/2015, 11:28 PM
Same way back site:

https://web.archive.org/web/20081007211720/http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mccarty_and_peters/coral/Hyper.htm

larcat
03/05/2015, 12:08 AM
Scholarly article on blisters in echinopora.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0097018

TLDR: No clue why, not parasite or bacterial though!

larcat
03/05/2015, 11:38 PM
Every single coral in our tank has it to one degree or Smither now, with the sole exception of Tubbs. Did a really careful inspection of the shaded side of all our acros, where it is easiest to see in the mildly impacted corals.

Given that there are multiple accounts, including my own experience, of the syndrome going away when introduced to a new tank, this leads me to believe it is environmental, and not flow based (different locations in my tank get very different flow patterns.) Furthermore, I don't think it is viral or bacterial because it does not infect new tanks.

So, light or chemistry or a combo.

Any ideas.

larcat
03/06/2015, 09:47 AM
Best pics I've seen of exactly my type of hyperplasia:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10392425&postcount=9

larcat
03/06/2015, 10:02 AM
Neoplasia vs. Hyperplasia:

So according to the scientific literature, there are two common growth anomalies in acros: neoplasia and hyperplasia.

Link above is hyperplasia.

This link is neoplasia.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1048732

Big difference in appearance. Both afflictions have been thrown in the same bucket on hobby forums historically.

To clarify, coral neoplasia results in skeleton and tissue growing out of control. The hyperplasia I am experiencing results in somewhat deformed skeletal growth, but only the fish growing wildly out of control.

larcat
03/06/2015, 02:30 PM
Got en email back from a PhD who has written some articles about acropora hyperplasia.

Fingers crossed!

g0rilla
03/06/2015, 07:21 PM
freaky never seen this before! learn something new everyday

71xlch
03/07/2015, 08:55 PM
Every monti, acro, stylo has this. Montipora (rainbow, superman, forgot the other) colour has suffered but they are still encrusting. Both my red and green monti cap look good. All acropora, stylo look fine and are still encrusting.


I'm running nitra guard cubes and dosing acropower. It all started for me after dosing acropower (amino acids).



Best pics I've seen of exactly my type of hyperplasia:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10392425&postcount=9

larcat
03/08/2015, 01:40 PM
Carbon dosing/AA dosing seems to be a common thread for many people. We are not doing either but we do feed heavily..

Good luck with your problem and please post any info or ideas you have. This has to be solveable :)


Every monti, acro, stylo has this. Montipora (rainbow, superman, forgot the other) colour has suffered but they are still encrusting. Both my red and green monti cap look good. All acropora, stylo look fine and are still encrusting.


I'm running nitra guard cubes and dosing acropower. It all started for me after dosing acropower (amino acids).

larcat
03/09/2015, 01:43 PM
Got a response from Dr. Gareth Williams from Scripps at UC San Diego. He was extremely generous with his time, and gracious about answering my questions.

I emailed him because he is one of the few people with articles online about hyperplasia in acropora.

His response is below:

Abnormal growth like that certainly would suggest hyperplasia, although we’d want to take a specimen to confirm.
Unfortunately, there is currently no other treatment than removal of the growth anomalies that I know of.

In your case I imagine this would be extremely hard, due to the extent of the problem, and likely lead to more harm than good.

I’ve attached here a paper I published whereby I was able to elicit recovery in branching Acropora when the growth anomalies were removed, although note that this was not successful in an encrusting Montipora species.

If it is hyperplasia then this might suggest an environmental stress as a casual agent. Perhaps too high a UV level?
Again, there really is very little known about this. Sorry I can’t be of more help

All the best

I think it is worth noting the bit about recovery after the afflicted areas have been cut out, and the line about UV. Dr. Williams did clarify that there is not conclusive evidence that UV leads to hyperplasia, they have seen some correlation.

I also want to note the line about environmental stress as a casual agent -- That confirms what myself and some other people have seen: Blistered frags that go into other peoples tanks usually recover/exhibit non blistered growth. It is a parameter/light/flow issue of some sort.

Only avenue I can think to pursue now is seeing if there is a hobbyist who has successfully cured this in tank somehow.... All sorts of remedies have been found in the hobbyist community through trial and error (interceptor, bayer, etc.)

Anyone have any more ideas?

reefwiser
03/09/2015, 05:33 PM
This is good info none the less. We learn many times more than Phd.'s as we have these corals in our home and watch them carefully.

larcat
03/09/2015, 07:09 PM
Yeah it is really interesting what the hobbyist world knows that science doesn't and vice versa.


This is good info none the less. We learn many times more than Phd.'s as we have these corals in our home and watch them carefully.

asylumdown
03/09/2015, 10:03 PM
Larcat you've done an amazing job researching. The pics in this thread are probably the best compilation of the issue to date. What is going on in my tank is definitely the hyperplasia, not neoplasia.

FWIW, this hasn't gone away for me. I've started tossing the corals this is affecting, but I can't bring myself to chisel out that big bonsai - it's literally the tank's centre-piece.

I've been trying to isolate the issue, but too many things have happened with the tank recently for me to be able to say one thing or the other is the cause of it - I've cratered the salinity by accident and had a doser malfunction that let my alk drop to 4.2 that wreaked quite a bit of havoc. Frankly I'm surprised more of my corals aren't toast.

It definitely seems like once this happens to a colony, there's no going back. It doesn't die, but the growth pattern totally changes and growth slows way way down. I've fragged off about half of the bonsai to try and get to healthy tissue at various times and that seems to have helped, but this is happening to 1 out of three of the new growth tips. Any coral this is not affecting, however, is just fine.

What lighting is everyone running? UV keeps coming up as a cause, but this tank has had gen 1 radions over it since the day I set it up 3 years ago. Those don't emit any UV from what I understand?

ETA: other than that alk disaster which was short term, my big three have been relatively stable. Low-ish, but stable. My calcium hovers around 400 +/- 10ppm, and my alk stays in the 7-7.5 range. My mag has only departed from the 1220-1240 range once in three years, about a year and a half before this started.

asylumdown
03/09/2015, 10:10 PM
oh, I have also been using orca-labs nitraguard cubes. I can't remember if I said that. This tank has had some form of carbon dosing for most of its life. It was biopellets for ~2 years, but there was a major change to the way I was using them within a couple weeks of this starting for the first time last February, right before the whole tank fell apart and I nearly lost every coral. Then I didn't use them for 6ish months, and then started using the nitraguard cubes.

The only thing I can really do is try taking the cubes offline. I'm not sure how else to control nitrates however.

larcat
03/10/2015, 08:42 AM
Larcat you've done an amazing job researching. The pics in this thread are probably the best compilation of the issue to date. What is going on in my tank is definitely the hyperplasia, not neoplasia.

Thanks. I feel like this issue has to be solveable, but it won't be if all the info is scattered. I'm going to try and keep this thing live.


FWIW, this hasn't gone away for me. I've started tossing the corals this is affecting, but I can't bring myself to chisel out that big bonsai - it's literally the tank's centre-piece.

We've tossed one -- Nilbog Resident from Battle Corals. It had grown lots, but hadn't branched at all. Just his massing, chalice-looking hyperplasial growth :( Don't be so quick to toss though -- Dr. Williams has proven that recovery is possible/common after physical removal of impacted growth. For many people, I think, other tank issues lead to crashes before they can "prune" away all the hyperplasial growth.

I'm going to make another post about this later, but Mark Shick, head of special collections at the Shedd Aquarium was kind enough to return a voice mail I left him. He said much the same thing as Dr. Williams -- "Environmental, cut away impacted areas, no firm handle on why it happens." He also said that as we get better at this hobby, hyperplasia will become a more common issue -- People will start having these long term issues rather than just "Look at tank wrong, RTN, restart." I think it is an important point (he put it much more eloquently, I'm paraphrasing rather vulgarly.)


I've been trying to isolate the issue, but too many things have happened with the tank recently for me to be able to say one thing or the other is the cause of it - I've cratered the salinity by accident and had a doser malfunction that let my alk drop to 4.2 that wreaked quite a bit of havoc. Frankly I'm surprised more of my corals aren't toast.

Keep at it, and don't give up!

One nice thing I have going atm is a relatively stable tank. We added a carbon reactor about 2 weeks ago in case it is allelopathy (we have lots of LPS and Ricordia.) If ours goes away, we've got a relatively "controlled" piece of evidence for allelopathy. Mr. Schick also floated allelopathy as a potential cause.


It definitely seems like once this happens to a colony, there's no going back. It doesn't die, but the growth pattern totally changes and growth slows way way down. I've fragged off about half of the bonsai to try and get to healthy tissue at various times and that seems to have helped, but this is happening to 1 out of three of the new growth tips. Any coral this is not affecting, however, is just fine.

I've had the exact same experience. Once the polyp "tuliping" starts, branching growth stops, and the only growth is massing hyperplasial growth. When I snip, I will have normal growth for a while, maybe even a couple inches, but the hyperplasia will kick in eventually and stop the continued growth. It isn't just an aesthetic issue -- it slows growth.


What lighting is everyone running? UV keeps coming up as a cause, but this tank has had gen 1 radions over it since the day I set it up 3 years ago. Those don't emit any UV from what I understand?

Radion 1s do not have "UV" diodes at all. I run 1 Gen 2 Pro and 2 Gen 3 Pros, which do have "UV" diodes. Just a note -- the "UV" diodes in our LEDs aren't really UV. They are right in the 400 nm range. AFAIK Kessils do have "real" UV.


ETA: other than that alk disaster which was short term, my big three have been relatively stable. Low-ish, but stable. My calcium hovers around 400 +/- 10ppm, and my alk stays in the 7-7.5 range. My mag has only departed from the 1220-1240 range once in three years, about a year and a half before this started.

Yup. I'm not a man of science, but I think we can conclude at this point that it isn't a Big 3 issue. At least not only a Big 3 issue.

larcat
03/10/2015, 08:45 AM
I know that carbon/BP are a factor, or seem to be, for many people. FWIW, we have never dosed carbon/run biopellets. We do have really good color and nearly 0 nuisance algae, so maybe we have similar conditions. (We feed really heavily.)

oh, I have also been using orca-labs nitraguard cubes. I can't remember if I said that. This tank has had some form of carbon dosing for most of its life. It was biopellets for ~2 years, but there was a major change to the way I was using them within a couple weeks of this starting for the first time last February, right before the whole tank fell apart and I nearly lost every coral. Then I didn't use them for 6ish months, and then started using the nitraguard cubes.

The only thing I can really do is try taking the cubes offline. I'm not sure how else to control nitrates however.

AugustWest
03/10/2015, 09:19 AM
Excellent job obtaining all that info. At least the next person searching for help on this will find some useful information other than the usual response of"check your Magnesium"...

I'm running ATI T5's over my tank. I also used Biopellets for 8 months. Ended up tossing the colonies affected. Started over with SPS frags and have not had a reoccurrence ( knock wood) Only changes I made were removing Biopellets and reducing flow.

larcat
03/10/2015, 09:21 AM
How much did you reduce flow by? I've changed my pattern to not have uni-directional, but haven't really reduced it per-say.

*CONGRATS* on no recurrence. Did you tear the tank down and recycle, or were you just SPS-fallow in the interim?

Excellent job obtaining all that info. At least the next person searching for help on this will find some useful information other than the usual response of"check your Magnesium"...

I'm running ATI T5's over my tank. I also used Biopellets for 8 months. Ended up tossing the colonies affected. Started over with SPS frags and have not had a reoccurrence ( knock wood) Only changes I made were removing Biopellets and reducing flow.

larcat
03/10/2015, 09:42 AM
Question for everyone:

How many people in here with the issue are running LEDs with Cool White predominating with the intensities cranked way up?

This will include almost all common LED companies with the exception of Kessil and Reef Breeders.

71xlch
03/10/2015, 10:22 AM
Im running t5HO

larcat
03/10/2015, 10:35 AM
Thanks.

Im running t5HO

AugustWest
03/10/2015, 11:04 AM
How much did you reduce flow by? I've changed my pattern to not have uni-directional, but haven't really reduced it per-say.

*CONGRATS* on no recurrence. Did you tear the tank down and recycle, or were you just SPS-fallow in the interim?

I went from running the MP40 at 100% down to 75% and the MP10 from 100% down to 90%. Didn't change their positioning at all and still run Reefcrest mainly. NTM on occasion

I did not restart the tank, I just disposed of the affected colonies and began adding SPS shortly after removal.

larcat
03/10/2015, 11:57 AM
Really interesting. Congrats again on getting non-deformed growth. Bet it feels good!

I went from running the MP40 at 100% down to 75% and the MP10 from 100% down to 90%. Didn't change their positioning at all and still run Reefcrest mainly. NTM on occasion

I did not restart the tank, I just disposed of the affected colonies and began adding SPS shortly after removal.

SneekaPeek
03/10/2015, 05:48 PM
has anyone dipped effected corals yet with a product like coralrx or revive from tlf.

larcat
03/10/2015, 06:49 PM
I haven't. I'll make a Joe the Coral frag and try though. My gut tells me it won't do anything. We use Bayer for pest doing now.... I've got Rx and revive. Suggestions on which to try?


has anyone dipped effected corals yet with a product like coralrx or revive from tlf.

SneekaPeek
03/10/2015, 09:50 PM
I haven't. I'll make a Joe the Coral frag and try though. My gut tells me it won't do anything. We use Bayer for pest doing now.... I've got Rx and revive. Suggestions on which to try?

try the revive and see how things work out. give the frag a week to heal up some though. don't want to kill the fragment from chopping it up and dipping right away.

Panta rhei
03/11/2015, 03:24 AM
Tried CoralRx without any improvement

SneekaPeek
03/11/2015, 07:54 AM
Tried CoralRx without any improvement

thanks, appreciate the input. I had different results while dipping that's why i mention the dip specifically tlf revive.

SneekaPeek
03/11/2015, 08:11 AM
hey larcat, do you run activated carbon in your system to rid of toxins?

larcat
03/11/2015, 12:26 PM
Added a reactor and Rox 2 weeks ago. My better half is convicted it is allelopathy. We do have some large Acan colonies and about 20 ricordia, and a handful of ZnP. Still more acros than anything. Only 60 gallons total system Viking, so I'm hoping it is allelopathy. Not going to make any other major changes for a month or two to try and test this in a controlled-ish situation.


hey larcat, do you run activated carbon in your system to rid of toxins?

larcat
03/12/2015, 09:38 AM
Wait, did you dip some frags in Revive and the Hyperplasia went away, while non-dipped SPS maintained the Hyperplasia?

Sorry if I missed this in an earlier post. If that above is the case, that is potentially a big deal.

FWIW, I made Tubbs and Pac Man frags about a week ago.

The Tubbs frags are completely healed now/have new growth (same with the colony.

The Pac Man frags are just healing now......

While the hyperplasia doesn't kill, it *definetly* slows growth down.

When all the corals in my system were healthy, Tubbs was a moderate grower at best....

Edit -- Yes I know I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but still.

thanks, appreciate the input. I had different results while dipping that's why i mention the dip specifically tlf revive.

AugustWest
03/12/2015, 12:52 PM
Just thought of something else. What kind of lights and what photoperiod are you using?When my affected corals were frags my tank was pretty new and I was new to T5 lighting. I'm running an ATI Sunpower 8 bulb fixture and at the time I was running all the lights for 9 or 10 hours , I forget exactly,which I eventually realized was too long and lowered it to 8 hours for all bulbs.

Did this for quite some time until I realized 8 hours was still too much ( SPS were pale) finally realized that 6 hours with all lights was the sweet spot and is still the photoperiod I use today.

Keep in mind that this is only a 18" high tank, this could definitely fit in with the UV theory. No doubt I was blasting the corals with light. HTH and good luck to you.

SneekaPeek
03/12/2015, 02:03 PM
Wait, did you dip some frags in Revive and the Hyperplasia went away, while non-dipped SPS maintained the Hyperplasia?

Sorry if I missed this in an earlier post. If that above is the case, that is potentially a big deal.

FWIW, I made Tubbs and Pac Man frags about a week ago.

The Tubbs frags are completely healed now/have new growth (same with the colony.

The Pac Man frags are just healing now......

While the hyperplasia doesn't kill, it *definetly* slows growth down.

When all the corals in my system were healthy, Tubbs was a moderate grower at best....

Edit -- Yes I know I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but still.

As I mentioned way earlier in the beginning it was a combo of getting my alk back to healthy parameters and I dipped my infected coral in revive. First the tissue had a couple bubbles in it like neoplasia (First pic in page 1 of my posts), then once i dipped the coral for x amount of time, the coral changed from a bubble to a different growth like the second pic I posted on page 1. After a month or 2 of stable parameters and such the growth kinda shed off so to speak. It healed itself through time. So I don't know if it was the dip that helped or the alk that helped.

If you really want to get risky, try dipping the coral for an extended period of time if the regular dip time doesn't change anything. I'm not saying it will heal/cure the coral, but its worth a try. Im just posting my experiences with such incidents.

larcat
03/12/2015, 02:32 PM
Awesome, thanks.

If the tea tree oil in these dips is "harsher" on hyperplasial acro flesh, but less harsh on healthy flesh, maybe this could be a solution.... Kill off the hyperplasial flesh with dip, let the coral heal itself with healthy flesh....

If you look closely at a coral the is badly blistered, the polyps "tulip." I don't know if this is because the polyps themselves are deformed, or because the hyperplasial flesh is constricting the polyp. Regardless, they don't open/extend fully/normally, so eating is almost certainly impaired, which might be why growth slows.... If the polyps aren't deformed, just constricted, if it is possible to selectively kill off the hyperplasial flesh, maybe that is a solution.

Total conjecture on my part, risky, and importantly requires an otherwise healthy/stable tank (since this will stress the hell out of the coral), but at least it makes some intuitive sense?

Thanks much for the contribution SneekaPeek.


As I mentioned way earlier in the beginning it was a combo of getting my alk back to healthy parameters and I dipped my infected coral in revive. First the tissue had a couple bubbles in it like neoplasia (First pic in page 1 of my posts), then once i dipped the coral for x amount of time, the coral changed from a bubble to a different growth like the second pic I posted on page 1. After a month or 2 of stable parameters and such the growth kinda shed off so to speak. It healed itself through time. So I don't know if it was the dip that helped or the alk that helped.

If you really want to get risky, try dipping the coral for an extended period of time if the regular dip time doesn't change anything. I'm not saying it will heal/cure the coral, but its worth a try. Im just posting my experiences with such incidents.

asylumdown
03/14/2015, 02:43 PM
The past week I've been extra diligent with my params - testing every day and keeping it between 130 and 133 ppm CO3 on the hanna alkalinity checker. I've also done three 50 gallon water changes in the last 7 days. Starting to have a bit of an issue with cyano, but all my corals seem to be leaping to life with new growth tips forming all over the place, and visible elongation in just the past week. I'm hard pressed to find any bubbles on the big bonsai, there's still a few there, but the majority seem to have deflated. that other green acro I posted a pic of earlier has seen no improvement however.

This certainly seems environmental, but what issue all those water changes is correcting does not appear to be something I have a test for.

Can I ask how everyone who's experiencing this is maintaining their big three? I'm having to dose MASSIVE amounts of alk and calcium supplements to keep up with the amount of coral I have in here. They're not dosed in exactly equal proportions. I'm wondering if maybe an imbalance between the sodium and chloride ions is developing?

SneekaPeek
03/14/2015, 04:26 PM
The past week I've been extra diligent with my params - testing every day and keeping it between 130 and 133 ppm CO3 on the hanna alkalinity checker. I've also done three 50 gallon water changes in the last 7 days. Starting to have a bit of an issue with cyano, but all my corals seem to be leaping to life with new growth tips forming all over the place, and visible elongation in just the past week. I'm hard pressed to find any bubbles on the big bonsai, there's still a few there, but the majority seem to have deflated. that other green acro I posted a pic of earlier has seen no improvement however.

This certainly seems environmental, but what issue all those water changes is correcting does not appear to be something I have a test for.

Can I ask how everyone who's experiencing this is maintaining their big three? I'm having to dose MASSIVE amounts of alk and calcium supplements to keep up with the amount of coral I have in here. They're not dosed in exactly equal proportions. I'm wondering if maybe an imbalance between the sodium and chloride ions is developing?

Im glad to hear that things are working out for the better. I keep a very religious schedule of water changes, and I always heard the saying "when in doubt change it out". I do believe water changes are key. keep up the good work and post your experience. maybe post a couple before and after pics. :)

sabo
03/14/2015, 10:39 PM
I recently have had a smooth skin acro start to do this. Problem is that I have changed quite a few things in the tank recently, so pinning it to any one thing is impossible. Of note though, one thing I did do was raise mag levels quite a bit.

larcat
03/15/2015, 11:32 AM
BRS 2 part. I have to dose more alk than cal.




Can I ask how everyone who's experiencing this is maintaining their big three? I'm having to dose MASSIVE amounts of alk and calcium supplements to keep up with the amount of coral I have in here. They're not dosed in exactly equal proportions. I'm wondering if maybe an imbalance between the sodium and chloride ions is developing?

larcat
03/15/2015, 11:34 AM
Good luck. This thread should provide all the (little) info there is out there.


I recently have had a smooth skin acro start to do this. Problem is that I have changed quite a few things in the tank recently, so pinning it to any one thing is impossible. Of note though, one thing I did do was raise mag levels quite a bit.

larcat
03/15/2015, 11:38 AM
I have a slightly bonkers lighting set up...

32"*17"*17" tank.

2*Gen 3 radion pro, 1*Gen 2. All with wide angle lenses. I run Battle Coral's old radion graph, with 6 hours if full blast and a 3 hour ramp up and ramp down.

Just thought of something else. What kind of lights and what photoperiod are you using?When my affected corals were frags my tank was pretty new and I was new to T5 lighting. I'm running an ATI Sunpower 8 bulb fixture and at the time I was running all the lights for 9 or 10 hours , I forget exactly,which I eventually realized was too long and lowered it to 8 hours for all bulbs.

Did this for quite some time until I realized 8 hours was still too much ( SPS were pale) finally realized that 6 hours with all lights was the sweet spot and is still the photoperiod I use today.

Keep in mind that this is only a 18" high tank, this could definitely fit in with the UV theory. No doubt I was blasting the corals with light. HTH and good luck to you.

71xlch
03/21/2015, 12:58 PM
BRS 2 part. I have to dose more alk than cal.

Why!? That's the point of 2 part. Dose in equal amounts. If you alk is failing faster than cal you need to dose more of both. Always both in equal amounts.

asylumdown
03/21/2015, 01:01 PM
Is that right? There's more things in a tank that can consume alkalinity (organic acids, for example), I always just try and keep the parameters balanced. In my tank that means dosing more all than Ca. If I were to dose them equally wouldn't my calcium go through the roof?

71xlch
03/21/2015, 08:44 PM
Is that right? There's more things in a tank that can consume alkalinity (organic acids, for example), I always just try and keep the parameters balanced. In my tank that means dosing more all than Ca. If I were to dose them equally wouldn't my calcium go through the roof?

Gahhh no. Read randys stuff on 2 part. If you dose a ton of alk your cal drops. Dose a ton of cal your alk plummets. That's the point of 2 part being balanced. If you need more alk, when you add the extra cal it will balance itself out. There are calculators that tell you what cal should be at for a given alk reading. The only time you would add more cal for instance is to boost it to the balanced level before you start a maintenance 2 part dose. I will try to get some links but read read read before your start dicking around with chemistry (not being a dick). Don't want to crash a tank and lose your coral.

71xlch
03/21/2015, 08:47 PM
Is that right? There's more things in a tank that can consume alkalinity (organic acids, for example), I always just try and keep the parameters balanced. In my tank that means dosing more all than Ca. If I were to dose them equally wouldn't my calcium go through the roof?

Here is a quote from the following link:
So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/

71xlch
03/21/2015, 08:57 PM
Is that right? There's more things in a tank that can consume alkalinity (organic acids, for example), I always just try and keep the parameters balanced. In my tank that means dosing more all than Ca. If I were to dose them equally wouldn't my calcium go through the roof?

And this for a real world example

https://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/the-right-way-to-use-2-part-additives/

Reef Bass
03/22/2015, 07:04 AM
While I agree in general that dosing equal amounts of alk and ca supplements is appropriate, I am not in agreement with always dosing exactly equal amounts. I let testing tell me what I need more of. At one point I had a large amount of stony corals, including one monti cap 24" across. Hit the front and back walls of the 2' wide tank. That thing was a calcium sponge and I had to dose more calcium than alk to keep up with my calcium demand. Adding more alk only raised my alk, which was undesirable. I (or rather my automated equipment) also dose magnesium daily.

71xlch
03/22/2015, 08:09 AM
While I agree in general that dosing equal amounts of alk and ca supplements is appropriate, I am not in agreement with always dosing exactly equal amounts. I let testing tell me what I need more of. At one point I had a large amount of stony corals, including one monti cap 24" across. Hit the front and back walls of the 2' wide tank. That thing was a calcium sponge and I had to dose more calcium than alk to keep up with my calcium demand. Adding more alk only raised my alk, which was undesirable. I (or rather my automated equipment) also dose magnesium daily.



Did you not read the posts?........the number one misconception is one is being used more than the other indicates more 2 part is needed. Only rare corner cases or years of dosing results in a imbalance. Even Randy mentions hobbiest test kits cant track Calcium in the water to the point people think they can.

i guess I'm just :deadhorse1:. If people cant read and actually understand the content they are reading.


Edit: I will add if you have an awesome tank and its working for you keep doing it. If others are chasing numbers and cant figure it out. Maybe try something else.

AugustWest
03/22/2015, 09:32 AM
Speaking of reading comprehension , pretty sure the OP doesn't want this very seldom discussed SPS issue turned into a 2 part dosing debate.

71xlch
03/22/2015, 09:47 AM
Speaking of reading comprehension , pretty sure the OP doesn't want this very seldom discussed SPS issue turned into a 2 part dosing debate.

Wouldn't it be awesome to have it turn out to be because 2 part not being dosed right?

I have the same issue as the OP. I also had my 2 part dosed wrong because the person I choose to look after my tank for a week couldn't read and follow directions. So maybe it's related. I left and it was fine. Came home to bubbled skin. That was the only change. I'm slowly returning to normal values. But hey if you read the thread you would know I had the same problem ;).

Also in the thread someone mentions their ALK dropped. Then they returned to normal values it went away. He also changed other things so it's hard to say. Still worth looking at.

jgalen0025
03/22/2015, 03:49 PM
I have a few acros that are doing this now. The only thing that has happened is that I had an alk spike due to doser malfunction. Lost a couple things but everything is fine now just some bubbling on the tips.

Just an fyi, IME if your dosing unequal amounts of two part, chances are you are having a precipitation problem.

asylumdown
03/22/2015, 10:31 PM
well I've been at this for a long time, but i'm the first to admit when my understanding of a topic is either incomplete or has slid due to years of familiarity.

I'll be honest, the last time I read in depth about alkalinity and calcium was nearly 5 years ago. Back then I wasn't dosing a proper '2 part' recipe.

I'm using a Jaebo doser that forces you to select a volume per dose, so being even more honest, I wasn't even sure how out of balance my rate of addition was until just now when I went through the schedule and checked. I'm presently dosing 431 mL of Tropic Marin part A – the alkalinity part – per day, and 285 mL of Part A – the calcium part – per day. So to say that I'm adding them in unequal quantities would be an under-statement.

I just did a test, and my calcium is way down in the gutter at 349 (yikes, I need to do that test more often), but my alk is steady at 7.5.

I'm open to trying anything - what's the suggestion? up my calcium dosing rate to match my alk dosing rate exactly as it is now?

asylumdown
03/22/2015, 11:23 PM
ok well I just read through all those articles, I'm sure I read them years ago, I'm not sure how I let myself slip on something so basic.

I just bumped my calcium up to 380ppm, will try to get it up to 410 tomorrow. I also adjusted my dosing rate so it's dosing equal volumes of each. We'll see what happens to my numbers over the next few days, and if I need to make adjustments, I'll make them to both.

I'm not sure that will explain the tissue bubbling, but it will hopefully correct future issues generally. This weekend my pink lemonade started to bubble, which is a coral this has never affected in the past, so it would be just the tops if this was something super basic that I just fixed.

SneekaPeek
03/23/2015, 12:50 AM
well I've been at this for a long time, but i'm the first to admit when my understanding of a topic is either incomplete or has slid due to years of familiarity.

I'll be honest, the last time I read in depth about alkalinity and calcium was nearly 5 years ago. Back then I wasn't dosing a proper '2 part' recipe.

I'm using a Jaebo doser that forces you to select a volume per dose, so being even more honest, I wasn't even sure how out of balance my rate of addition was until just now when I went through the schedule and checked. I'm presently dosing 431 mL of Tropic Marin part A – the alkalinity part – per day, and 285 mL of Part A – the calcium part – per day. So to say that I'm adding them in unequal quantities would be an under-statement.

I just did a test, and my calcium is way down in the gutter at 349 (yikes, I need to do that test more often), but my alk is steady at 7.5.

I'm open to trying anything - what's the suggestion? up my calcium dosing rate to match my alk dosing rate exactly as it is now?

definitely bring your cal up to 410, (1/3 of your mag) and just up the dose gradually, every couple of days test so that your not increasing cal from your dosing. You want to just keep it steady same way your alk is now. and over time water changes will bring it up. patience and gradual improvements win the race.

asylumdown
04/03/2015, 07:08 PM
So... I'm not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but I took 71xlch's advice, went back to basics, and am now dosing equal amounts of a balanced alk a calcium supplement. I thought I'd see a massive spike in my calcium levels, but I didn't. In fact, things started growing so fast I've had to up my dosing rate of both by 20 mL/day a week for the last three weeks.

no new plasias have formed on my corals since I did this, and in fact... my worst hit colony (the one pictured on the first page) has branched off several brand new, completely healthy looking growth tips from one of the worst branches. My pink lemonade, which had one tip out of 20 swell up like a balloon a couple of days before I changed my dosing regimen, has returned to normal.

This is by no means a smoking bullet, and my 'Big three' levels were never really that much out of balance. However, I'm adding huge volumes of alk and calcium supplement to my tank relative to its size, and I was adding twice as much alk supplement per day as calcium supplement for the better part of a year. This means I was also adding twice as much sodium to the tank as chloride. Go figure things would only start improving when I'd do 3 or 4 large water changes in a row. It's not something we have a test for (sodium/chloride balance), but has anyone else experiencing this examined their dosing regimen? Do we know what the chemical consequences of adding twice as much sodium as chloride might be? Or what that might do to a coral?

Piper27
04/03/2015, 07:28 PM
I had a few tips bubble up on an acro. I also let my calcium get down to 350 when I started dosing 2 part instead of using a calcium reactor. I have been dosing about 3/4 of a cup per day for a few weeks and it has only gotten it up to 390. I have had the calcium reactor back on since then. I will post if the tips go away, that is if I can get the calcium up... This is always a part of my routine every few years. I let calcium slip, the other is my rodi prefilters, but I have been better on that the past few. Things happen in life and I seem to let the basics slip some.

71xlch
04/03/2015, 08:26 PM
So... I'm not sure if this has anything to do with anything, but I took 71xlch's advice, went back to basics, and am now dosing equal amounts of a balanced alk a calcium supplement. I thought I'd see a massive spike in my calcium levels, but I didn't. In fact, things started growing so fast I've had to up my dosing rate of both by 20 mL/day a week for the last three weeks.

no new plasias have formed on my corals since I did this, and in fact... my worst hit colony (the one pictured on the first page) has branched off several brand new, completely healthy looking growth tips from one of the worst branches. My pink lemonade, which had one tip out of 20 swell up like a balloon a couple of days before I changed my dosing regimen, has returned to normal.

This is by no means a smoking bullet, and my 'Big three' levels were never really that much out of balance. However, I'm adding huge volumes of alk and calcium supplement to my tank relative to its size, and I was adding twice as much alk supplement per day as calcium supplement for the better part of a year. This means I was also adding twice as much sodium to the tank as chloride. Go figure things would only start improving when I'd do 3 or 4 large water changes in a row. It's not something we have a test for (sodium/chloride balance), but has anyone else experiencing this examined their dosing regimen? Do we know what the chemical consequences of adding twice as much sodium as chloride might be? Or what that might do to a coral?

That's good news about the growth explosion! I am also having one currently on my montipora's. My two worst hit acros still look like crap but everything else appears to be getting better. Hoping in a month I'll have some BRS Dosers instead of by hand. Help smooth out the addition of 70ml of each into 60 gallons.

Please let us know in the coming weeks how things are.

asylumdown
04/05/2015, 12:53 PM
Well I'm definitely beginning to understand how much harder it is to maintain a mature SPS reef than brand new one. two years ago I had to think about water chemistry one a month at most. I upped my dosing rate on Friday again to 500 ml/day of both the alkalinity and calcium supplement, and by today my dKH had still fallen by 1.12. With a balanced addition things really seem to be picking up speed.

71xlch
04/09/2015, 08:04 PM
Since I have been able to keep alk stable since my last dip I'd say I'm back to 80% bubble free coral. Starting to think it has to do with alk swings.

Piper27
04/10/2015, 09:55 AM
I had a few tips bubble up on an acro. I also let my calcium get down to 350 when I started dosing 2 part instead of using a calcium reactor. I have been dosing about 3/4 of a cup per day for a few weeks and it has only gotten it up to 390. I have had the calcium reactor back on since then. I will post if the tips go away, that is if I can get the calcium up... This is always a part of my routine every few years. I let calcium slip, the other is my rodi prefilters, but I have been better on that the past few. Things happen in life and I seem to let the basics slip some.

My reactor is running great now and I have got the calcium up to 450 finally, half a jug of bionic. The tips are no longer bubbling and stuff looks a little better too. I think the calcium is an issue causing the bubbling tips. My thoughts in the beginning were maybe low strontium could affect corals in this way as well. Soft skeletons and weird growth at least.

Seems once a year or two I forget about calcium and something bad always happens. That and TDS. Maybe I should start a calendar :)

AugustWest
04/10/2015, 10:52 AM
When I had my issue I did notice that the "bubbling" would go away as some of you have just stated. It's the tissue deformity that seemed for me at least, to be permanent. Is the deformed tissue and growth getting better for you guys too?

asylumdown
04/10/2015, 11:21 AM
The places that were deformed appear to be permanent, but new growth coming out of the deformities appears normal. Fwiw, I've been tracking all every day now that I'm dosing a balanced additive in equal proportions. I'm up to 900mL/day of tropic Marin's part A and B to keep my dKH over 7.

Considering that a few weeks ago I was dosing like 400 mL of alk and 200mL of calcium, I'm starting to feel more confident that at least in my tank this was an issue with the big three.

What's nuts is that the way I was doing it before, my levels were never really all that "off". They were on the low side, and now checking my numbers against some of the charts online they were never 'balanced' (surprise surprise, alk was too high for my calcium level even though both were really low). It's like I was giving them just enough to not kill them.

Now that I've corrected this I've never seen growth this fast in my tank before, even on colonies that were hard hit by the bubbling.

SneekaPeek
04/10/2015, 06:22 PM
The places that were deformed appear to be permanent, but new growth coming out of the deformities appears normal. Fwiw, I've been tracking all every day now that I'm dosing a balanced additive in equal proportions. I'm up to 900mL/day of tropic Marin's part A and B to keep my dKH over 7.

Considering that a few weeks ago I was dosing like 400 mL of alk and 200mL of calcium, I'm starting to feel more confident that at least in my tank this was an issue with the big three.

What's nuts is that the way I was doing it before, my levels were never really all that "off". They were on the low side, and now checking my numbers against some of the charts online they were never 'balanced' (surprise surprise, alk was too high for my calcium level even though both were really low). It's like I was giving them just enough to not kill them.

Now that I've corrected this I've never seen growth this fast in my tank before, even on colonies that were hard hit by the bubbling.

So glad to hear your results, keep up the good work and im sure everything will work out for the better. Sometimes ignorance can really deceive the most experienced reefers.

Reef Bass
04/11/2015, 07:53 AM
I'm up to 900mL/day of tropic Marin's part A and B to keep my dKH over 7.

900ml a day? 1000ml = 1l = 33.8oz. 900ml = 30.42oz. That's almost a quart per day. You're going through a gallon of each supplement every 4 days? 7-8 gallons of each per month?

asylumdown
04/11/2015, 08:55 AM
Yup. I'm a little shocked by it, but I've been diligent with testing. I thought my dosing pump must be broken but I've marked it on my dosing containers (which are four gallons), and the volume is accurate.

I just posted this in a different thread, but I blame it on the montiporas visible in these pics:

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/FC02424C-034B-41B4-8763-87B8AA54BB73_zpsyz8zrthg.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/FC02424C-034B-41B4-8763-87B8AA54BB73_zpsyz8zrthg.jpg.html)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/FB2B1351-7A51-4D48-B8B0-F9921E977D9A_zps4daecwgh.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/FB2B1351-7A51-4D48-B8B0-F9921E977D9A_zps4daecwgh.jpg.html)

Tank is 6' x 30" x 27".

Reef Bass
04/11/2015, 09:17 AM
Wow. Ok. That is a large water volume, and a number of stony corals. Tank looks good!

Have you considered a calcium reactor? You have enough going on there that it could make sense.

asylumdown
04/11/2015, 09:20 AM
Yes, but when I built the tank I didn't have space for one. Now I do, but my house has been for sale for a while and the tank is built in so its either coming out altogether, or staying for the new owners, so I've been trying to avoid anything other than maintenance levels of investment.

asylumdown
04/16/2015, 10:20 PM
So it's taken weeks of fiddling and testing, but I'm now up to 950 mL/day of both tropic marin part A and part B and the dKH has been holding rock steady at 7.5.

All the plasia (I can't remember now if it was neo or hyper) has stopped. All of it.

I can't help but wonder how much of the trouble I've had for the last year was related to an unbalanced dosing regimen that was masking my tank's 'true' demand for supplementation. I'm starting to think it was most of it.

Here's some top downs of a once again happy reef. Half the corals in these pictures didn't seem like they were going to live a couple of months ago. They're now growing like did when I first got them! A few of the smaller ones are frags of previously large colonies that I nearly lost that limped along until I corrected this issue with my water chemistry.
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/E5D7813B-33C7-4884-959A-7204BBB15644_zpsa8wh6iou.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/E5D7813B-33C7-4884-959A-7204BBB15644_zpsa8wh6iou.jpg.html)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/02E46F68-F164-42FE-A6C5-6C69C15DF7B1_zpscjq3wlrn.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/02E46F68-F164-42FE-A6C5-6C69C15DF7B1_zpscjq3wlrn.jpg.html)
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g411/asylumdown/476541A1-8D33-40CF-94E4-5E755DE989D0_zpstbxlijo8.jpg (http://s1100.photobucket.com/user/asylumdown/media/476541A1-8D33-40CF-94E4-5E755DE989D0_zpstbxlijo8.jpg.html)

SneekaPeek
04/17/2015, 12:16 AM
cool, extraordinary recovery, thanks for posting.

markalot
04/17/2015, 07:13 AM
Awesome, glad you got it figure out. I can't imagine dosing that much a day, I better get a backup plan! Is the gyre the only means of flow in the tank right now?

asylumdown
04/17/2015, 02:12 PM
I have a gyre on either side of the north overflow and they alternate being on every 20 minutes. Plus my return pump pushes 2800 gph. The tank should really have 4 gyres because of those awful internal overflows, but they really do a great job of getting the whole water column moving. The 20 minute break from hard-core flow really helps my elegance and frogspawns.

Gmerek2
05/16/2015, 09:03 PM
My calcium dropped to 300 last week oops! Of course the SPS warned me by bubbling up. I believe bubbling is caused by General stress and many different things can cause it. Because a long time ago I had some severe alk issues and they bubbled up. My pieces are looking much better now that problem is fixed but I don't think I'm quite out of the woods yet

SeargentSlice
05/17/2015, 04:31 AM
I have bubbles or blisters looks like on My SSC mini colony not all acros were affected but it has bin around 4 weeks now and not seeing it improve at all. It happened when I changed the setting on my ballast without taking a par reading and it got around 3 days of 800par when it was only getting 430par. Big 3 are not a prob holds rock steady the only other thing I did was dose acropower and some dvh bio grow bacteria from my normal zeobak dosing so stopped that did a 30gal water changes 2 weeks in a row going to do another today.

larcat
03/09/2016, 02:41 PM
Hey all.

I hadn't checked in here in some time -- I just want to corroborate something.

Asylumdown has likely figured out the problem I had as well. We ALWAYS had to dose heavily uneven amounts of calc and alk. We had some serious growth happening in multiple colonies when I started needing the uneven dosing, and the hyperplasia quickly followed.

We've since torn down and will be restarting, but seriously, hats off to this man.

Just looking at that tank, you can see the result of that quality of reefing.

*clap*!

Acronic
03/10/2016, 09:39 AM
For what it's worth I'll copy paste my response from an older thread here for you guys

"That is a reaction to an imbalance between mag and cal. The coral is favoring the calcite polymorph of CaCO3 versus the aragonite polymorph. It is usually a non issue short term but extended ionic imbalances will have negative outcomes."

Link to that thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792536

Another reefer here who had this is flagswipe if you are looking for more reference photos

larcat
03/10/2016, 09:46 AM
That matches up with asylumdown's imbalanced 2 part fix, and my (never fixed, but was definitely happening) imbalanced 2 part addition.

Really a relief knowing what the cause was.

For what it's worth I'll copy paste my response from an older thread here for you guys

"That is a reaction to an imbalance between mag and cal. The coral is favoring the calcite polymorph of CaCO3 versus the aragonite polymorph. It is usually a non issue short term but extended ionic imbalances will have negative outcomes."

Link to that thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=792536

Another reefer here who had this is flagswipe if you are looking for more reference photos

Acronic
03/10/2016, 09:52 AM
Basically it is an environmental imbalance that the coral reacts to by changing the crystalline structure of its skeletal matrix.

The aragonite polymorph is structurally more robust compared to the calcite polymorph which is why we are hearing about flow being suspected. ie the "windswept" growths.

Exactly why the blisters occurs I'm not entirely sure but I feel as though it may be some sort of localized gas build up between the connective tissue and the skeletal matrix due to the excellerated growth rate of the calcite polymorph.

Just my 2 cents

larcat
03/10/2016, 11:30 AM
Wow, before the hyperplasia kicked in hard, we had the "windswept" growth thing going in our more delicate acros.

Thanks very much for contributing here.

Basically it is an environmental imbalance that the coral reacts to by changing the crystalline structure of its skeletal matrix.

The aragonite polymorph is structurally more robust compared to the calcite polymorph which is why we are hearing about flow being suspected. ie the "windswept" growths.

Exactly why the blisters occurs I'm not entirely sure but I feel as though it may be some sort of localized gas build up between the connective tissue and the skeletal matrix due to the excellerated growth rate of the calcite polymorph.

Just my 2 cents

Acronic
03/10/2016, 02:40 PM
Interesting, in my experience the thin branched acros, walindii, carducc, derawenensis exhibited the same thing. Growth tips would shoot up an inch over the course of 1-2 days but we're so fragile they would disintegrate if disturbed.

larcat
03/10/2016, 03:17 PM
Yup, carduus and echinata here.

Such a relief to know what the deal was.

Interesting, in my experience the thin branched acros, walindii, carducc, derawenensis exhibited the same thing. Growth tips would shoot up an inch over the course of 1-2 days but we're so fragile they would disintegrate if disturbed.

justy
11/07/2016, 02:46 PM
Any more updates on this very interesting thread please?

larcat
08/30/2017, 01:11 PM
Google "zeus rainbow tenuis".....

Man, just man.