Keeping SPS is soooo hard and expensive! Thinking about quitting after 2 years.

[kurfer]

I can't keep SPS, when I finally get a frag to take off it dies all of a sudden overnight.

I check my alk daily, it stays between 7.4 and 7.8. My calc is always right around 410 and mag I keep around 1320. I use an Apex to monitor PH which stays stable at 8.1-7.9; my salinity probe keeps me in check as well as my temp probes holding at 79.

No matter what I feed, what I do...the following WILL NOT live in my tank:

Acans, will look good for 2 weeks then shrivel up and NEVER open.
Trachyphyllia & Wellsophyllia, usually shrivel up before 3 days and slowly die while in shrunken state, love to lose color.
Zoas, they just don't stay open and eventually wither away...even the cheap green ones
Acros, basically will never have PE and eventually die through a sudden random RTN event

What I can keep:

Hammer corals - had some die but most have grown nicely
Frogspawns - had a few die but mainly they flourish and grow
Birdnest - grows like crazy
Toadstool - grows
Torch corals - growing like crazy
green star polyps - open and close randomly, seems to be ok? Not really spreading though
xenia - colony seems to have stopped spreading but always open and flowing

Jury still out:

Duncans, some seem ok but often close up
RBTA, have one in my tank...was doing great and split into two, now both shriveled and moving all over

So basically my tank has nice frogspawns, torches and hammer corals but everything else is hit or miss and SPS other than birdsnest and monti caps always seem to die.

Equipment:

150G
2 AI Hydra 52
lifereef skimmer (large model)
2 MP40's
Apex controller with about every option you could imagine
DOS pump dosing BRS 2 part
Carbon/GFO reactor
Ecobak pellets in TLF reactor

Daily dose:

BRS 2 part 38ml of each daily
Korallen Amino acid per instructions daily (6 drops)
Korallen Pohl's Coral Vitalizer (6 drops daily)

1 cup HC GFO monthly
1.4 cup Carbon monthly

reef roids/oyster feast 1-2 times per week

Daily feeding of Neptune crossover via AFS

Nitrates stay around 5
Phosphates .03 and jump to .09 if I turn GFO off

15% weekly water changes with red sea coral pro. Also use a BRS 5 stage RODI.

Not sure what else to do, I spend at least 2 hours a day on my tank and my results are crap. :(

Over the course of 3 years I have probably lost around $1500 worth of corals.

[greaps]

I'm sorry to hear your thinking of quitting. : (

[kurfer]

I'm just at wits end, my brain works by educating myself and performing actions based on X.

In this hobby, it's not as simple as making sure numbers are X. Lots of expensive trial and error and waiting only to be let down. I wish I could make more sense out of it but I can't!

It's so easy for people to say make sure your Alk is X, Calc is X and Mag is X. That's the very very very easy part. It always seems like there is some phantom parameter that's always missing. Part of me thinks there is alot of luck in this hobby. Some random hidden parameter that decides whether your tank is amazing vs mediocre.

[devildog12210]

Red Sea Coral Pro has a high Alk. If you are using that you could be having spikes after your water changes?

[ghostman]

You seem to have all the right equipment to successfully keep SPS as well as the other corals. I have just a couple of quick questions about your setup. What is the specific gravity of your tank? Do you use a refractometer? The salinity probe of the Apex may not be such a useful tool in that respect. What test kits do you use? I personally like Salifert, and Hanna for PO4. What intensity do you have your lights set at? Acans like low light, and SPS like higher light so you have to aquascape accordingly. Maybe a LFS can double check your test results to verify the numbers. It's not uncommon to have a bad test kit that screws everything up.

[kurfer]

Red Sea Coral Pro has a high Alk. If you are using that you could be having spikes after your water changes?

Never have I had that issue after wc. Never have I had my coral pro show over 9 alk after mixing.

I thought my refratometer was off in the past. I own 3 of them:

Sybon, Red Sea and some LFS special. All calibrated using 35ppt fluid and I have taken samples to 3 different LFS to confirm salinity. Actually posted a thread about calibration a while back over this very issue.

My red sea coral pro always mixes at 380 calc, 7.0 alk and 1100 mag. Sometimes I see 9.0 alk, water changes are not big enough at 15% to make that much difference. I ALWAYS test alk after my WC on Sundays...I also use 3 test kits to do it:

Red sea, salifert, and my Hannah alk which is always on the low end.

[PhaneSoul]

Have you ever considered chemical warefare? I mean I know ur running carbon but IMO it's not gonna do the job well. There is a reason all your euyphilla are doing better then the rest. It looks like your softies are almost starving, your lps are dominant and sps just can't cut it. Not to mention it's very hard to keep sps and softies and have the correct nutrient levels that will suite both.

Focus on your must haves and build the environment around them. If you want sps focus on providing a ultra low nutrient system. Barebottom works well for this. If you want lps/sps then focus on what they need. Nutrients. Let there be some, just not an abundance of them. That's why sand is good for lps/softies but can really mess with sps.

Go back to the basics and focus on what you really want

[kurfer]

You seem to have all the right equipment to successfully keep SPS as well as the other corals. I have just a couple of quick questions about your setup. What is the specific gravity of your tank? Do you use a refractometer? The salinity probe of the Apex may not be such a useful tool in that respect. What test kits do you use? I personally like Salifert, and Hanna for PO4. What intensity do you have your lights set at? Acans like low light, and SPS like higher light so you have to aquascape accordingly. Maybe a LFS can double check your test results to verify the numbers. It's not uncommon to have a bad test kit that screws everything up.

Thanks for the reply.

I keep my tank at 35ppt, using 3 refratometer's calibrated via solution and LFS (3 different stores). I really only use the Apex as a tool to measure my change in salinity and rather ignore the actual number (reads 36.8) calibration on that tool is spotty at best. I just like a reference number to see how much it changes after WC and to alert in case of ATO failure.

3 alk test kits...dont keep them long I test pretty much daily so I go through them alot.

SPS stay on top of rocks, acans on sandbed. The one in the shade is actually the worst off.

Lights are:

2 hydra 52 12 inches above water and here are my light settings:

http://i.imgur.com/L7vffjH.jpg

[Nano sapiens]

Never have I had that issue after wc. Never have I had my coral pro show over 9 alk after mixing.

My red sea coral pro always mixes at 380 calc, 7.0 alk and 1100 mag. Sometimes I see 9.0 alk, water changes are not big enough at 15% to make that much difference. I ALWAYS test alk after my WC on Sundays...I also use 3 test kits to do it:

Red sea, salifert, and my Hannah alk which is always on the low end.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Maybe we can find a solution.

What I notice here is that many corals known to be tolerant of water chemistry chages are doing the best, but not all. SPS (Acros) and many Zoas are not tolerant of rapid parameter changes, that's for sure.

Your numbers regarding Red Sea Coral Pro salt are very unusual. The manufacturer's specs for 'Coral Pro' show that at SG 1.026 (35 ppm salinity):

alkalinity should be around 12.3 – 12.7 dKh / 4.4 – 4.5 meq/l
calcium should be around 455 – 475 mg/l
magnesium should be around 1360 – 1420 mg/l

My test kit numbers were similar to the manufacturer's when I used this salt exclusively. Because of the very high alkalinity and calcium levels, I now mix it with Red Sea 'Blue Bucket' to avoid much of the alkalinity spike from water changes. When my Coral Pro is finished, I plan use the blue bucket exclusively.

Another thing you can do is change from 15% water change all at once to around 7% x 2, within the same time period. I changed to 5% 2x/week, from my old 10%/week and it has really helped cut down on the stress that occurs with water changes. You could even change a small percentage daily (if you have the time), which is the least stressful of all for the inhabitants.

I believe that you can overcome this issue by smoothing out some of the stressors, so perhaps try a lower alkalinity/calcium salt (at NSW salinity) and a modified water change routine and see if the situation improves.

[3yellowtangs]

I did the same thing but because of time. Its a time consuming hobby. I went to softies only. Its easier. And everyone elsenlikes my tank better.

[kurfer]

http://i.imgur.com/dAif3dw.jpg

Here is the full tank shot, all the open space on the right larger island is from me pulling dead SPS. Bottom sanded corals come and go, if you look close you can see my zoa rocks all closed up. Left side softy island is doing well. Right side no so much...

The smaller frags some are RTNing as of today, need to remove about 4 of them.

I have about 700-1000 bristle worms in the sand/rock so I know nutrients are ok?

I don't feed heavy at all, not sure how my nitrates are 5 and pos is .03 after using GFO/Carbon and Ecobak pellets

Birdsnest on top left is my fastest grower, was the size of my finger when I got it 4 months ago. Now it's huge...

[reefwiser]

Just enjoy what you can keep in your aquarium. Do not feel like a failure because you have trouble with one species of coral.

[Guygettnby]

How old is this current tank? Do you scrap all the walls to remove coraline algae? How often do you feed and how much? How many fish do you have in the tank? I only see 1 in the picture.

You could be dealing with chemical warfare in the tank, but that isn't a for sure thing. I have a very mixed reef tank and I am not having an issue there. I do however have a good amount of fish in my tank and I make sure everything in my tank is fed well. But I don't over feed either.

[Nano sapiens]

1. If you can maintain that many brstleworms, then the tank has nutrient input.

2. Your nitrate and phosphate levels are quite standard these days and are acceptable (nitrate could be a bit lower, though, but not a deal breaker). Do you have large detritus deposits (sand bed, under live rock, sump...wherever). I control the level of both NO3 and PO4 with water changes and detritus removal processes exclusively (no media of any kind is used) and have done so for over three decades in various sized tanks.

[twon8]

Flow?

[kurfer]

The only thing that collects in the sand bed are empty shells and small fragments of rock that break off. My sump has what looks to be small brown dust particles, hard to vacuum even the shop vac.

I only scrape front wall, the sides and back I leave alone since it's an in-wall build and they are tinted limo tint on backside.

Flow is strong, 2 MP40's at reefcrest 85%

Fish:

1 yellow tang
1 blue tang
1 six line wrasse
1 orange clown
2 black occ clowns
1 blue chromis
1 royal gramma

Is it safe to assume chemical warfare could be happening from all types of coral even the zoas? I thought a mixed reef really only had to worry about leathers (which I was tempted to remove and give away to my LFS)

[kurfer]

Just enjoy what you can keep in your aquarium. Do not feel like a failure because you have trouble with one species of coral.

Noticed you're from Louisville! Me too!

[hoooop54]

I feel for you. This hobby can be frustrating at times. I have to say though, your tank has a lot of great corals in it. It is easy for us to see the flaws on our tanks, but from the outside, it looks pretty good.

[Pife]

You don't have much coralline on the back walls for them not to be scraped. If you can't grow it then your system is not doing well enough for sps imho. I would think you are having a huge spike in alkalinity after a water change. I have seen this in several tanks when people couldn't put it all together to successfully keep sps.

[Pife]

where do you all shop in Louisville? (lfs) I'm there every other month and haven't found a good store.

[reefgeezer]

Carbon dosing has been associated with RTN in sensitive corals. Do you use a lot of pellets?

Rapid changes in the phosphate level can harm some corals also. When you change GFO does the phosphate level change quickly?

[mfaso24]

I feel for you. This hobby can be frustrating at times. I have to say though, your tank has a lot of great corals in it. It is easy for us to see the flaws on our tanks, but from the outside, it looks pretty good.


+1 I'm guilty of this. I have to learn to enjoy my tank because most of the time I'm sitting with my face on the glass just looking for something wrong.

[kurfer]

where do you all shop in Louisville? (lfs) I'm there every other month and haven't found a good store.

aquatica, over off Blakenbaker access...awesome owner and clean shop.

I think they go by Urban Oceans now.

[kurfer]

Carbon dosing has been associated with RTN in sensitive corals. Do you use a lot of pellets?

Rapid changes in the phosphate level can harm some corals also. When you change GFO does the phosphate level change quickly?

Params seem to move slowly...

This contradicts everything iv'e read about ULNS reef tanks. Some of the best SPS tanks iv'e seen have been running some type of ULNS setup whether it be Pellets, Vodka, Vinegar, Zeo etc...

[kurfer]

You don't have much coralline on the back walls for them not to be scraped. If you can't grow it then your system is not doing well enough for sps imho. I would think you are having a huge spike in alkalinity after a water change. I have seen this in several tanks when people couldn't put it all together to successfully keep sps.

Never been able to grow it, I figured it was my lights. Doesn't coralline need lower light?

[PhaneSoul]

Have you ever considered chemical warefare? I mean I know ur running carbon but IMO it's not gonna do the job well. There is a reason all your euyphilla are doing better then the rest. It looks like your softies are almost starving, your lps are dominant and sps just can't cut it. Not to mention it's very hard to keep sps and softies and have the correct nutrient levels that will suite both.

Focus on your must haves and build the environment around them. If you want sps focus on providing a ultra low nutrient system. Barebottom works well for this. If you want lps/sps then focus on what they need. Nutrients. Let there be some, just not an abundance of them. That's why sand is good for lps/softies but can really mess with sps.

Go back to the basics and focus on what you really want

[mfaso24]

Never been able to grow it, I figured it was my lights. Doesn't coralline need lower light?


Some coralline likes low light while others prefer a higher light

[Gangous]

Wait ur running pellets?? Some people have amazing results but I never did!
I'd pull them if I where u I never had luck with them and sps when I pulled them I had a few algae out breaks but after a few months I was able to keep sps

[fredro]

I think you may need a little more light (mostly because you said that your Xenia has stopped growing bigger) and that your Alk is low and your Calcium is low, IMHO. I like Alk around 9.5-10 and Calcium around 460-480, especially if using RSCP Salt. Also, what's your fuge like (light, contents, growth rate)? What test kits do you use? I suspect that you may have higher Nitrate or Phosphate levels than you think. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of your issues here and get you back on the happy side of reefing, especially after all you've invested :) Good Luck!!

[Reefer54]

Carbon dosing has been associated with RTN in sensitive corals. Do you use a lot of pellets?

Rapid changes in the phosphate level can harm some corals also. When you change GFO does the phosphate level change quickly?

This is what i was thinking from the first post on, especially with CORAL PRO. 15% WC are not huge by any means, but they could be spiking alk enough even if you are not seeing it in the tests or with a controller. Alk and carbon have a negative result on sps when alk is above 8-9, and coral pro DOES turn out 12 when fresh.

I would urge you to look at a timeline. RTN does not happen the instant water chemistry or whatever stressor hits a coral, it does take a little time, such as overnight when the stressor and a lowered ph are combined. consider how long after a wc or other param shift occurs that you see rtn or the final closeup of of acan polyps.....trachys may just need to be put in the lowest flow area of your tank and out of direct light.....

good luck, i dont know if i have helped at all, but things to consider.

[fredro]

Another reason I believe the lighting may be insufficient is tat the BTAs have been moving all around as you stated.

I run GFO and carbon in BRS dual reactor and was planning on running Pellets too, but was talked out of it before I decided to set the reactor up... Pellets can be good and I have also heard of them causing issues in sensitive ecosystems. Did you start running them for a certain reason, or was it just because. Just like you shouldn't dose things that you don't test for, you also shouldn't fix problems that you don't have. Sometimes you gotta get back to basics. If it were me, I would rethink your light levels, I would double check your nitrates and phosphates, I would lose the reef-roids and any other excess feelings and take the pellets offline. Really hope we can get to the bottom of this!

[banthonyb71]

Isnt a nitrate level of 5ppm rather high for SPS?

[tang named junkyard]

I have the same problems. I can't keep a zoa to save my life. Everything else is growing crazy.

[Reefvet]

Another reason I believe the lighting may be insufficient is tat the BTAs have been moving all around as you stated.


BTAs move when they can't find a place out of the current. They will also move for light but unless you just got them they know where that is. If they're still wandering around it's because they can't find refuge. Trusts me I have 28 of them and have raised them for 20+ years.

How old is the RO/DI filter ?

Have you changed the carbon, DI resins or the membrane ?

If you don't have coraline growing I don't think you have sufficient Mag. If Mag is low everything else is limited.

[kurfer]

BTAs move when they can't find a place out of the current. They will also move for light but unless you just got them they know where that is. If they're still wandering around it's because they can't find refuge. Trusts me I have 28 of them and have raised them for 20+ years.

How old is the RO/DI filter ?

Have you changed the carbon, DI resins or the membrane ?

If you don't have coraline growing I don't think you have sufficient Mag. If Mag is low everything else is limited.

Mag is 1340, I keep mag above 1320 and check often.

My nitrates would be my biggest issue, I run the pellets to lower them, it was suggested I stop with the pellets but i'm afraid my nitrates will go out of control. Thinking about running without filter socks for a few weeks to see if it helps lower them, one thing i'm guilty of is not changing them weekly. Sometimes i go 2 weeks...

If I can't keep up with lowering nitrates, is that a sign I don't have enough rock?

[Reefer54]

try a remote deep sand bed. could hep nitrate.

not cleaning the socks is a definite area to keep your eye on.....nutrient sinks if not cleaned, and i would say every 3 or 4 days at most.

[kurfer]

I use marinepure ceramic blocks in my sump, I did that to suppliment my lower level of live rock in the display. Should I look at more or could it potentially be causing an issue sitting in my sump?

[PhaneSoul]

If I can't keep up with lowering nitrates, is that a sign I don't have enough rock?

that's a sign your not keeping up with detritus export.

a dsb is only a nutrient sink, nothing more. put all the lil creatures in it and its still just a nutrient sink.

[Reefer54]

that's a sign your not keeping up with detritus export.

a dsb is only a nutrient sink, nothing more. put all the lil creatures in it and its still just a nutrient sink.

I agree that detritus needs to be addressed above. If nutrients are not be exported from your system, clearly that is an issue which must be addressed first.... However, a deep sand bed is not a nutrient sink if implemented and properly maintained. On the contrary, it is a very efficient means of nitrate reduction in a system. Notice i recommended a REMOTE DSB.....this is to assume that organics in the water column have been efficiently removed prior to water passing through\over the DSB. Even DT's with a DSB that are properly maintained offer a great buffering ability and Nitrate reduction.

Phane, i encourage you to take a deeper look into the benefits of deep sand beds.

[Sk8r]

Tanks sometimes let you know what they 'want' to keep. I have had extraordinary luck in a 52 with 10000k Ushio MH and euphyllias...420 cal, 8.3 alk, and 1300 mg, moderate skimming. My advice is if a tank doesn't do well with what you intended, go with what thrives, if it's at all what you can be happy with.

[fredro]

Don't attempt to feed your corals, if currently are. Especially if you're not changing those filter socks out every few days. I'd say nitrate export and excessive detritus is your main issue. I'd also still like to see your main levels (Alk, Ca and Mag) a lot closer to the levels of the newly mixed RSCP saltwater.

[Reefer54]

that's a sign your not keeping up with detritus export.

a dsb is only a nutrient sink, nothing more. put all the lil creatures in it and its still just a nutrient sink.

I agree that detritus needs to be addressed above. If nutrients are not be exported from your system, clearly that is an issue which must be addressed first.... However, a deep sand bed is not a nutrient sink if implemented and properly maintained. On the contrary, it is a very efficient means of nitrate reduction in a system. Notice i recommended a REMOTE DSB.....this is to assume that organics in the water column have been efficiently removed prior to water passing through\over the DSB. Even DT's with a DSB that are properly maintained offer a great buffering ability and Nitrate reduction.

Phane, i encourage you to take a deeper look into the benefits of deep sand beds.

[kurfer]

Ok, after reading all these extremely helpful replies (thank you!) I think my strategy is going to be around keeping my nitrates at or below .5 and phosphates at or below .03 (currently they are).

The catch, i'm going to remove the biopellets as it's just another variable. I'm going to go with the keep it simple stupid approach. I think my alk is too low in the 7's so i'm going to work on raising it slowly to 8.5.

Params i'm going to shoot for:

Alk 8.5
Calc 440
Mag 1350
nitrates <= .5
phosphates <= .03

Detritus is currently enemy #1, I simply can't remove what I can't see. Blowing off my rocks with a turkey baster doesn't shoot clouds of junk into my water and visibly I can't see the stuff. My rocks look clean as does my sump; i'm sure it's there so I gotta figure out how to ensure it's not causing my nitrates.

I am also removing filter socks tomorrow while watching my nitrates and phosphates closely.

i'll worry about ULNS some other day, it appears to me that's its easier to have some nitrates and phosphates while running higher alk than it is keeping alk around 7ish and undetectable no3/po4. Zeo/pellets/carbon is just another variable that will end up burning me out of this hobby.

[PhaneSoul]

I agree that detritus needs to be addressed above. If nutrients are not be exported from your system, clearly that is an issue which must be addressed first.... However, a deep sand bed is not a nutrient sink if implemented and properly maintained. On the contrary, it is a very efficient means of nitrate reduction in a system. Notice i recommended a REMOTE DSB.....this is to assume that organics in the water column have been efficiently removed prior to water passing through\over the DSB. Even DT's with a DSB that are properly maintained offer a great buffering ability and Nitrate reduction.

Phane, i encourage you to take a deeper look into the benefits of deep sand beds.

sorry, I did not see the 'remote' in your post, my apologies. do you have any good links on dsb's that are not related to shiemek & associates?

[fredro]

Ok, after reading all these extremely helpful replies (thank you!) I think my strategy is going to be around keeping my nitrates at or below .5 and phosphates at or below .03 (currently they are).

The catch, i'm going to remove the biopellets as it's just another variable. I'm going to go with the keep it simple stupid approach. I think my alk is too low in the 7's so i'm going to work on raising it slowly to 8.5.

Params i'm going to shoot for:

Alk 8.5
Calc 440
Mag 1350
nitrates <= .5
phosphates <= .03

Detritus is currently enemy #1, I simply can't remove what I can't see. Blowing off my rocks with a turkey baster doesn't shoot clouds of junk into my water and visibly I can't see the stuff. My rocks look clean as does my sump; i'm sure it's there so I gotta figure out how to ensure it's not causing my nitrates.

I am also removing filter socks tomorrow while watching my nitrates and phosphates closely.

i'll worry about ULNS some other day, it appears to me that's its easier to have some nitrates and phosphates while running higher alk than it is keeping alk around 7ish and undetectable no3/po4. Zeo/pellets/carbon is just another variable that will end up burning me out of this hobby.


Great idea!
Try and suck up any detritus from the surface of the sand VERY CAREFULLY when doing water changes. The last thing you ever want to do is disturb the sandbed, deep or shallow, there's some nasty stuff in there! Good luck!

[kurfer]

Great idea!
Try and suck up any detritus from the surface of the sand VERY CAREFULLY when doing water changes. The last thing you ever want to do is disturb the sandbed, deep or shallow, there's some nasty stuff in there! Good luck!

Even with a shallow sandbed? I would be afraid that if I didn't clean/siphon heavily weekly that it would get out of control. One of the reasons I didn't run DSB in my tank is that I didn't want a timebomb on my hands. :)

Figured remote DSB was the only approach.

I read lots of conflicting reports on whether to weekly stir/siphon shallow sand beds. I know the vividcoral guys like to stir their beds...

[PhaneSoul]

Ok, after reading all these extremely helpful replies (thank you!) I think my strategy is going to be around keeping my nitrates at or below .5 and phosphates at or below .03 (currently they are).

The catch, i'm going to remove the biopellets as it's just another variable. I'm going to go with the keep it simple stupid approach. I think my alk is too low in the 7's so i'm going to work on raising it slowly to 8.5.

Params i'm going to shoot for:

Alk 8.5
Calc 440
Mag 1350
nitrates <= .5
phosphates <= .03

Detritus is currently enemy #1, I simply can't remove what I can't see. Blowing off my rocks with a turkey baster doesn't shoot clouds of junk into my water and visibly I can't see the stuff. My rocks look clean as does my sump; i'm sure it's there so I gotta figure out how to ensure it's not causing my nitrates.

I am also removing filter socks tomorrow while watching my nitrates and phosphates closely.

i'll worry about ULNS some other day, it appears to me that's its easier to have some nitrates and phosphates while running higher alk than it is keeping alk around 7ish and undetectable no3/po4. Zeo/pellets/carbon is just another variable that will end up burning me out of this hobby.

what cha got in your sump? I run my system very KISS. barebottom, nothing besides a 55 dt, 55 sump, a few powerheads and a return pump (no skimmer, im poor, one to come soonish). I did have a filter sock that I replaced every 2-3days, this system does extremely well to limit phosphates, as in I have no algae and only had to clean the glass once a week, but I do not know what my phos reading was because I have no hanna tester or of the equivalent. I just know my monti grew 1/8th in to 1/4th in a month and all my euyphilla were growing like weeds, trumpet, acans, paly's all do well, with 30% monthly water changes and blowing out the rocks each week I maintained low phos and 10-20 nitrate, I also vacuumed out the bottom of my sump at this time for any fine detritus.

but im an experimenter and I, well, experimented. I wanted a kole tang so I haulted maintenance to let detritus build up in the sump to grow some algae. I wanted algae so when I introduced the tang he had something natural to eat since I figured it would take him awhile to eat what I had to offer. that worked and 2 weeks later when he started warming up he was fat. stressed out still, but fat and started taking my food. two months later he is stress free and healthy. the downside... my nitrates went thru the roof. phosphates were easy to get back under control. I just vacuumed out my sump and redeployed my filter socks & changing then 2-3 days and a week later I stopped growing algae.

but now, since my nutrients are normal again I have recently takin my filter sock off and just let everything settle in the sump and my nitrates have dropped a lil. when I did a water change they would be right around 10 and by the end of the month they would be near 20ppm and so far they have not gone as high as before.

and that's my story.

[Reefer54]

sorry, I did not see the 'remote' in your post, my apologies. do you have any good links on dsb's that are not related to shiemek & associates?

no apologies necessary with me Phane, ever. haha......no worries at all.
Here are few. But there is a LOT on here if you search Remote Deep Sand Bed.....and a lot of differing opinions too... I currently run a 9in bed in my sump, and will go remote with the new tank around the corner....ran one in my last tank too. the remote concept is new to me, but i am all in as i love the idea of taking it offline or rejuvenating it without effecting my DT very much at all.

any way.....
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1652103
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2268433&highlight=remote+deep+sand+bed
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=896352&highlight=remote+deep+sand+bed

[PhaneSoul]

Great idea!
Try and suck up any detritus from the surface of the sand VERY CAREFULLY when doing water changes. The last thing you ever want to do is disturb the sandbed, deep or shallow, there's some nasty stuff in there! Good luck!

that's exactly why you want to siphon the sandbed... why let that stuff just sit there and rot, your only adding to nutrients.

[PhaneSoul]

no apologies necessary with me Phane, ever. haha......no worries at all.
Here are few. But there is a LOT on here if you search Remote Deep Sand Bed.....and a lot of differing opinions too... I currently run a 9in bed in my sump, and will go remote with the new tank around the corner....ran one in my last tank too. the remote concept is new to me, but i am all in as i love the idea of taking it offline or rejuvenating it without effecting my DT very much at all.

any way.....
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1652103
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2268433&highlight=remote+deep+sand+bed
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=896352&highlight=remote+deep+sand+bed

before I add those to my list of reading material for tomorrow, answer a few questions for me?

-you say properly cared for DSB's and RDSB's, is this inferring these threads understand that there does need to be proper maintenance with sand, whether it be weekly, monthly maint. or just not touching it much and replacing the whole thing every x amount of years?
-do these threads understand that sandbeds will sink nutrients and that your trying to create an environment to support the must have organism's?
-do they understand that the more organisms, the higher the total nutrient load in the system?

[kurfer]

what cha got in your sump? I run my system very KISS. barebottom, nothing besides a 55 dt, 55 sump, a few powerheads and a return pump (no skimmer, im poor, one to come soonish). I did have a filter sock that I replaced every 2-3days, this system does extremely well to limit phosphates, as in I have no algae and only had to clean the glass once a week, but I do not know what my phos reading was because I have no hanna tester or of the equivalent. I just know my monti grew 1/8th in to 1/4th in a month and all my euyphilla were growing like weeds, trumpet, acans, paly's all do well, with 30% monthly water changes and blowing out the rocks each week I maintained low phos and 10-20 nitrate, I also vacuumed out the bottom of my sump at this time for any fine detritus.

but im an experimenter and I, well, experimented. I wanted a kole tang so I haulted maintenance to let detritus build up in the sump to grow some algae. I wanted algae so when I introduced the tang he had something natural to eat since I figured it would take him awhile to eat what I had to offer. that worked and 2 weeks later when he started warming up he was fat. stressed out still, but fat and started taking my food. two months later he is stress free and healthy. the downside... my nitrates went thru the roof. phosphates were easy to get back under control. I just vacuumed out my sump and redeployed my filter socks & changing then 2-3 days and a week later I stopped growing algae.

but now, since my nutrients are normal again I have recently takin my filter sock off and just let everything settle in the sump and my nitrates have dropped a lil. when I did a water change they would be right around 10 and by the end of the month they would be near 20ppm and so far they have not gone as high as before.

and that's my story.

My sump has a lifereef skimmer in it (very large for my volume) (36-inch, rated for 300-600g system)

2 7 inch filter socks (large sump), I took out the black sponge that sits between the middle and final return chamber. Replaced it will a PURA filter I change out monthly.

There are two ceramic 8” x 8” x 1” Plate MarinePure blocks sitting below my socks. That's it, everything else is bare bottom...my reactors feed the middle bay where my skimmer is.

[Reefer54]

-remote you dont touch. DT and in my opinion sump DSB's need to be agitated. I do it weekly with water changes. Funny, i never blow off my rocks, i let the worms eat that stuff.
-these threads will discuss many aspects of DSBs, and yes, they outright warn that DSB can become nutrient sinks. There is advective flow through a sandbed which must be considered. I even heard one guy who is going to go back to a plenum and try to make the plenum layer accesible via pvc.....but that is not in those threads....great idea in full.
-I would need a definition of the word "they". But i am sure that some of the long timers like Calfo would understand the idea of bio load on an enclosed environment......but i dont know; it depends on who "they" is\are.

they are good reads.....the basics are pretty much front-loaded, then you can thread search or jump to more current dates on any of them and still kind of pick up whereever a good question is asked if you like....they are long, but good reads.

[fredro]

IMO, if you're siphoning and stirring up your sandbed every time you do a water change, then that's another big reason for the issues you're having. I'm sure others may disagree, but there only one thing I do with a sandbed, deep, shallow or whatever... and that's leave it alone at all costs.

[Reefer54]

siphoning and agitating are two different things. siphoning from the bottom of a sandbed is going to raise nutrient load to the main water instead allowing it to exist suspended below the surface. Agitating the surface 1" or less of sand will do the same but before the organics have really broken down....allowing us to remove them and not let the sand bed become a nutrient sink.....snails can do this for us, nassarius are great. agitation, not siphoning.

I often run my finger up to the first knuckle through the sand in areas of lower flow or behind rocks....agitation.

[PhaneSoul]

im used to long threads lmao... doesn't phase me, but sounds like they are good reads.

kurfer, in my 10g I clean it every week. I have always wondered when detritus breaking down would start affecting water quality. after 1 week it would still test very low nitrates but if I didn't clean it for 2 weeks in a row my nitrates would be anywhere between 20-30. this is part of the reason why ive decided to go with no filter sock on my display tank. higher flow, higher o2, more bacterial activity breaking down detritus in the socks adding to the inorganic nutrients. something to think about before you let your filtersocks go without maintenance again.

what exactly is the PURA filter?

the ceramic sounds legit, there is a company that makes artificial liverock from ceramic and has studied the porosity of it to try and get their rock perfect.

are you guys familiar with bacterial flock? autotrophic bacteria liberate phosphates from liverock, its then incorporated into their beings then they shed/die and by natural processes they are pushed out of the liverock. when you blow off your rock that's what this dust is. well that and any poop and what have you that's on the rock. this bacterial flock contains a bit of phosphate. coral will eat the bacterial flock, im not sure about worms and such tho. I didn't really see my bristle worms in my 10g looking to the bacterial flock for food. and I had a lot of it since my rocks I put in there were filled with phosphate.

[fredro]

siphoning and agitating are two different things. siphoning from the bottom of a sandbed is going to raise nutrient load to the main water instead allowing it to exist suspended below the surface. Agitating the surface 1" or less of sand will do the same but before the organics have really broken down....allowing us to remove them and not let the sand bed become a nutrient sink.....snails can do this for us, nassarius are great. agitation, not siphoning.

I often run my finger up to the first knuckle through the sand in areas of lower flow or behind rocks....agitation.


I'll agree with that, but I have a feeling many people misunderstand this concept and buy a substrate siphon tube from petco and go nuts in an attempt to clean their sand by "vacuuming it." A sand sifting goby may be another good idea for people who wish to agitate their sandbed.

[PhaneSoul]

siphoning and agitating are two different things. siphoning from the bottom of a sandbed is going to raise nutrient load to the main water instead allowing it to exist suspended below the surface. Agitating the surface 1" or less of sand will do the same but before the organics have really broken down....allowing us to remove them and not let the sand bed become a nutrient sink.....snails can do this for us, nassarius are great. agitation, not siphoning.

I often run my finger up to the first knuckle through the sand in areas of lower flow or behind rocks....agitation.

how is siphoning raising the nutrients to the water column when your physically removing the nutrients and the surrounding water?

[JohnniG]

If there is more stress and negativity connected to the hobby than good things, quit. Or maybe try something more easy. Like anemones.

[fredro]

how is siphoning raising the nutrients to the water column when your physically removing the nutrients and the surrounding water?


Because you're not really getting ALL of the crap out, even if it looks like it. You're removing some, and stirring up more, which is making its way into to main water column and contaminating your water.

[PhaneSoul]

if you have proper flow going over the sandbed then the amount of detritus that actually gets in there isn't going to be anything compared to what gets broken down in a filter sock. the more you clean your sand the less nutrient there are going to be in the sand, period. it shows at the end when you let the bucket settle down and look in to see that weeks catch. I do not understand how leaving the detritus in is going to cause less nutrients then taking the detritus out completely, that is contradictory. we have had problems at TRT with members that ritually clean sand each week with their not being enough organic nutrients for softies. that is a common problem for members that are newer to the 'keep it clean' concept and are not experienced enough to balance out their cleaning so a lil detritus gets a chance to break down and then provide nutrients.



Because you're not really getting ALL of the crap out, even if it looks like it. You're removing some, and stirring up more, which is making its way into to main water column and contaminating your water.

this is the point in a softies/lps system, except for the mix up more part. you don't want to get it ALL, its rather impossible. you still need there to be some for softies and lps, they need it. just like with everything else, there are correct ways, eh screw it ways and wrong ways to do things. siphoning sand should still be a careful process as to not disturb the dirty sand not yet cleaned as to not try and mix up things before it gets siphoned out.

or you could do it the way you guys say and leave it in, remove the top stuff so minimal sinks to the bottom and stays there, as long as you understand its going to build up, phosphates are going to bind with caco, organisms are going to thrive, the total nutrient load is going to go up and eventually you will need to replace the sandbed. cleaning the sandbed routinely is going to keep detritus in the sandbed to a minimum keeping the nutrient load lower and substrate replacement will be further apart.

several ways to skin a cat here, but the point is the nutrients are either there in the system or they are not. nutrients swept under the rug are not nutrients takin out to the trashcan.

[fredro]

True, for the most part. But the OP was a question of why the SPS is dying. As you said, there's more than one way to skin a cat and I think we can agree that the high nutrients and low water parameters across the board are to blame in this situation. Now how that is rectified is another.

I would say start by changing out filter socks on a twice a week schedule, with well cleaned, if not new socks. Also dosing some quality 2 part and mag, along with a reliable quality set of test kits. That will fix the parameters and once they are in tune with the salt mixs, and only then, would I suggest a 30% water change to clean up the water a little. Get the GFO back online, starting at half the recommended amount too.

Please correct me if anyone disagrees.

[PhaneSoul]

nothing really looks bad parameter wise. alk is a little low, but not lower then sea levels. euyphilla growth shows phos isn't inhibiting calcium uptake, so im not seeing a nutrient thing unless acro's are just that bothered by nitrates. even then the low alk + nitrates point to excess bacterial action backed up by the 7.9-8.1 ph level.

but I have a feeling chemical warefare has more of a part in it. random RTN events might show this

Kufer, have you seen any noticeable effects right after you change out carbon?

IMO carbon exhausts itself much quicker then a month.

you could try changing it each week and see if that helps

[fredro]

nothing really looks bad parameter wise. alk is a little low, but not lower then sea levels. euyphilla growth shows phos isn't inhibiting calcium uptake, so im not seeing a nutrient thing unless acro's are just that bothered by nitrates. even then the low alk + nitrates point to excess bacterial action backed up by the 7.9-8.1 ph swings.



but I have a feeling chemical warefare has more of a part in it. random RTN events might show this



Kufer, have you seen any noticeable effects right after you change out carbon?



IMO carbon exhausts itself much quicker then a month.



you could try changing it each week and see if that helps


IF it is a chemical warfare issue, which I'm not totally convinced is the case, but is def a possibility, then I would be changing out carbon every 10 days or so, until there's a turn for the better. Carbon is very beneficial IMO in this case, regardless of the exact problem causing the RTN and can be exhausted in as little as two weeks in "normal" conditions and even less at times of more highly contaminated water, regardless of the contaminant. I agree 100% with getting some fresh clean carbon running in there are keep changing it on a regular cycle of no more than every 2 weeks tops.

[PhaneSoul]

how long has the leather been in the tank?


Compatibility and Social Behaviors

The Common Toadstool Coral is aggressive. The S. glaucum is toxic toward other corals due to their release of terpenes (poisons to ward off encroaching corals). They have been known to harm some stony coral species of Acropora like the Staghorn Acropora A. formosa, some species of Porites like P andrewsii, as well as the death of Catalaphyllia, Euphyllia, and Plerogyra species.

This species can generally be housed with fishes, shrimp, and hermit crabs. Be careful if a clownfish decides to use a S. glaucum as a surrogate anemone. The irritation of the clown can prevent the coral from expanding. In this case removal of the clown, or screening off the coral from the fish may be needed.

In the wild there are various copepods (tiny, shrimp-like crustaceans) found on this species. There are also several species of flatworms (planaria), nudibranchs, and other parasites that tend to feed on its tissue. If these pests are present, they can usually be removed with a simple 5 minute freshwater dip.

I have seen quite a few issues where a bit of mystery is involved often having a leather in the tank


Compatibility and Social Behaviors

The Common Toadstool Coral is aggressive. The S. glaucum is toxic toward other corals due to their release of terpenes (poisons to ward off encroaching corals). They have been known to harm some stony coral species of Acropora like the Staghorn Acropora A. formosa, some species of Porites like P andrewsii, as well as the death of Catalaphyllia, Euphyllia, and Plerogyra species.

This species can generally be housed with fishes, shrimp, and hermit crabs. Be careful if a clownfish decides to use a S. glaucum as a surrogate anemone. The irritation of the clown can prevent the coral from expanding. In this case removal of the clown, or screening off the coral from the fish may be needed.

In the wild there are various copepods (tiny, shrimp-like crustaceans) found on this species. There are also several species of flatworms (planaria), nudibranchs, and other parasites that tend to feed on its tissue. If these pests are present, they can usually be removed with a simple 5 minute freshwater dip.

http://animal-world.com/Aquarium-Coral-Reefs/Common-Toadstool-Coral#Compatibility%20and%20Social%20Behaviors

just a quick google search for that info, but nonetheless something to think about

[Big E]

I haven't read all the suggestions, but 2 Hydra 52s isn't enough lighting for a 150g tank.

Looking at your aqua scape suggests you may have peaks where the hot spots of the discs are.........You want the exact opposite. You want lower rock areas where the lights show the most intensity.

Find a way to produce consistent lighting across the whole tank if you want success with acroporas.

Also, you don't need both GFO & bio pellets............get a recirculating reactor for the bio pellets if you want to keep them.

The way you're set up now your bacteria populations will never be stable.

Stop adding the KZ supplements........you can go back to them if you need more PO4 or No3, but right now simplify & stabilize your set up.

[Gangous]

Tank looks pretty clean in the picture maybe too clean !
Back to basics ! I'd Remove the pellets for now

[mfaso24]

On the subject of rdsb. How do you set one up? Do you plumb it from the sump as like the "last stage" before being returned to the dt?

[steventaylor702]

Thanks for the reply.

I keep my tank at 35ppt, using 3 refratometer's calibrated via solution and LFS (3 different stores). I really only use the Apex as a tool to measure my change in salinity and rather ignore the actual number (reads 36.8) calibration on that tool is spotty at best. I just like a reference number to see how much it changes after WC and to alert in case of ATO failure.

3 alk test kits...dont keep them long I test pretty much daily so I go through them alot.

SPS stay on top of rocks, acans on sandbed. The one in the shade is actually the worst off.

Lights are:

2 hydra 52 12 inches above water and here are my light settings:

http://i.imgur.com/L7vffjH.jpg
I don't know if this has been suggested yet but your UV is high like really high could be causing you corals to burn up I have two hydra 26 over my tank I have my UV between 10 and 20%. I would suggest turning it down and recording results till you find the sweet spot for your tank

[reefgeezer]

Params seem to move slowly...

This contradicts everything iv'e read about ULNS reef tanks. Some of the best SPS tanks iv'e seen have been running some type of ULNS setup whether it be Pellets, Vodka, Vinegar, Zeo etc...

With phosphates, it's about a sudden drop when you change your GFO. FWIW, I use less than recommended, change it more often, and when I change it, I reduce the flow for one of two days before I go back to full flow.

I've also read where people start with half the recommended amount of pellets and end up never using much more. Maybe some people using pellets will chime in.

[booie]

I am a lazy reefer...I do not check nitrates, Phosphates or much of anything else .....So take my advice with a grain of salt. I have a 180 mixed and everything is growing well, no issues with algae tank overall looks good
I believe your lights are set to low. I have my 3 /hydra52's set about the same as yours but my whites are set at 58%

[BigCountry74]

Zoas, they just don't stay open and eventually wither away...even the cheap green ones

Back up and restart there. Fix the zoas problem and that might fix your SPS problem.

It's a lot cheaper to experiment on/fix zoas. If I had to take a guess, the problem is definitely in your water somewhere.
:beer:

[PhaneSoul]

How is fixing the zoa's gonna fix the sps? They require 2 different nutrient environments. Zoa's come from lagoons, nutrient rich and inorganics for food. Sps like nutrient poor waters and organic foods.

[Wazzel]

I don't know if this has been suggested yet but your UV is high like really high could be causing you corals to burn up I have two hydra 26 over my tank I have my UV between 10 and 20%. I would suggest turning it down and recording results till you find the sweet spot for your tank

Hardly to high, if anything lots of the levels are low, including UV.

[steventaylor702]

Hardly to high, if anything lots of the levels are low, including UV.
It depends on the size of the tank and I have personally watched the UV have a serious effect on my corals just wanted to throw that out there expecially since I was having the same problems with the same corals and dialing back the UV fixed the issue

[Wazzel]

How is fixing the zoa's gonna fix the sps? They require 2 different nutrient environments. Zoa's come from lagoons, nutrient rich and inorganics for food. Sps like nutrient poor waters and organic foods.

Zoa's and SPS can and do thrive in the same tank. If a little of lots of things are dying it sounds like a system problem.

Personally, I think you are trying to keep to many types together. I would never keep leathers with SPS and LPS. Ditch the leathers to keep SPS or ditch the SPS and keep the leathers.

If relatively easy things are just withering and dying, you may be starving the tank. Try reducing or removing the GFO and carbon (if you take the leathers out).

[reefwiser]

where do you all shop in Louisville? (lfs) I'm there every other month and haven't found a good store.

There is a new shop


http://www.bluestaraquatics.com
Great new store. Very knowledgeable owner.
The other all reef shop was just taken over by a new owner. He has been a manager of another store in town.
http://www.aquaticareef.com

[Wazzel]

It depends on the size of the tank and I have personally watched the UV have a serious effect on my corals just wanted to throw that out there expecially since I was having the same problems with the same corals and dialing back the UV fixed the issue

The UV on a hydra52 is four 5 watt diodes, not that powerful to start with. I run mine at 84% with no ill effects.

[ca1ore]

Everyone has their 'pet' theories I suppose as to why one tank has SPS that thrive and another does not. SPS can be really twitchy - they can do well for a long time, then suddenly crash for no apparent reason. Sometimes it's chemistry, sometimes its light, sometimes its an infection/disease of some kind. Personally I have never been able to keep SPS successfully in a tank that contained a lot of soft corals; though I can keep a few of the latter in a tank that is SPS dominated. SPS, LPS and Zooanthids should co-exist without any issues though.

Depending upon what you think of them, submitting a water sample for Triton testing might be worth a shot. I recently had some STN issues in a few of my smaller SPS colonies and sent in a water sample just to see if the issue was chemistry. Turned out my water was almost perfect (other than a couple of minor issues related to the salt I use - bromine and lithium) so whatever the reason, and I'm still not sure, it was elsewhere. If you are going to keep SPS successfully, you really want to keep your nutrient levels as low as possible (nitrates and phosphates), and there are many ways to accomplish this (with or without carbon dosing). Good husbandry is important, though I myself spend far less time than most removing detritus. Zooanthids, however, are - or should not - be at all sensitive to high nutrient levels. Some years ago I maintained a tank with nitrates around 100 and my zoos grew gangbusters (so did the GHA, unfortunately).

The other suggestion I would have is that relative levels of things like alkalinity can be more important than the absolute level, as long as you are within the right range. I have had issues with SPS in the past that I traced back to fluctuating alkalinity levels. As the corals grow (and if you keep large clams, as I do) your Alk can drop really quickly if you don't keep an eye on it. I tend to run my tank on the high side, 10-12 dkh, but it will drop to 6 or 7 in a couple of days if something goes amiss (calcium reactor clogs; 2-part runs out; forget to add kalk to the top-off water, etc.). Automation can be your friend in this regard (particularly for me because I have high-travel job), though vigilance is most important :)

[steventaylor702]

The UV on a hydra52 is four 5 watt diodes, not that powerful to start with. I run mine at 84% with no ill effects.
What size is your tank

[Wazzel]

What size is your tank

A 60 cube. Smaller than a 150.

[steventaylor702]

A 60 cube. Smaller than a 150.
Do you alclimate your corals to that intensity?

[Wazzel]

Do you alclimate your corals to that intensity?

Of course I did/do. Not doing so is disaster in the making with LEDs. I do a 30% 2 month acclimation every time I add a coral. I tried more and longer, but found that 30% and 2 months does the trick. Not willing to try less or shorter than that to know it that is still overly cautions.

I run my lights almost totally against most of the common advice and have good results. Makes me think the common advice needs more looking into to see if it is good/valid advice.

[mic209]

Thanks for the reply.



I keep my tank at 35ppt, using 3 refratometer's calibrated via solution and LFS (3 different stores). I really only use the Apex as a tool to measure my change in salinity and rather ignore the actual number (reads 36.8) calibration on that tool is spotty at best. I just like a reference number to see how much it changes after WC and to alert in case of ATO failure.



3 alk test kits...dont keep them long I test pretty much daily so I go through them alot.



SPS stay on top of rocks, acans on sandbed. The one in the shade is actually the worst off.



Lights are:



2 hydra 52 12 inches above water and here are my light settings:



http://i.imgur.com/L7vffjH.jpg


You realize that what you have pictured is for sunrise/sunset/clouds only? These arent your actual light settings throughout the day.

[steventaylor702]

Of course I did/do. Not doing so is disaster in the making with LEDs. I do a 30% 2 month acclimation every time I add a coral. I tried more and longer, but found that 30% and 2 months does the trick. Not willing to try less or shorter than that to know it that is still overly cautions.

I run my lights almost totally against most of the common advice and have good results. Makes me think the common advice needs more looking into to see if it is good/valid advice.
OK . I just wanted to throw it out there everyone's tank is different

[steventaylor702]

You realize that what you have pictured is for sunrise/sunset/clouds only? These arent your actual light settings throughout the day.
If you have it on location setting the slider panel on the right is how you adjust your intensity for the day you don't get to choose individual ramp settings when you're in location mode .

[power boat jim]

http://i.imgur.com/dAif3dw.jpg

I have about 700-1000 bristle worms in the sand/rock so I know nutrients are ok?



...

This to me is an indicator. That is a huge population living in just a few sq feet. I cant imagine the amount of leftover food there has to be to support that big of a population. If you cut it back they may die off leaving a whole different problem. I would look into how much you really need to feed the tank and start reducing the amount. Also siphoning the the sand bed may a good way to get rid of the nutrients and many of the worms that should die off once the detritus reduced. The population will stabilize and control itself after that.

[twon8]

You need more flow to keep acros successfully. I've got nearly that amount of flow in a 60g frag tank.

[GT350pwns]

There is a new shop


http://www.bluestaraquatics.com
Great new store. Very knowledgeable owner.
The other all reef shop was just taken over by a new owner. He has been a manager of another store in town.
http://www.aquaticareef.com

I'd stick to aquatica. The new owner is great.

The previous owner was very abrasive and always made me feel as if I was disturbing him.

[nyknicks4412]

If all your corals are dying...could there be something in the water you are not testing for that is causing it?

Maybe someone accidentally sprayed an air freshener near the tank or something? Just a thought...

[ReefsandGeeks]

Quite a long thread so I havne't read all of th comments but heres my 2 cents.

A tank doesn't need to be the most technologicaly advanced/automated system to be successful with SPS. I have a 40 tall mostly SPS with a few zoas, leathers, and a hammer. Equipment includes chineese LED lights on a timer (either on or off, no in between), sumpless with a canister filter (cleaned every other week), a simgle 800gph powerhead carefuly pointed to give good flow to everything in the tank, kalk drip with vinegar for top off/carbon dosing (pressurized gasoline container with an airline hose hotglued to it), and a swing arm hydrometer. I feel like a tank with stable perameters in the right range will handle any coral you want, assuming things like lighting is right, flow is good, and no chemical warfare/copper contaminents/fish nipping at coral...etc.

Reading though it seems most of your perameters are good, so I can see your frustration. If everything tests good, then I'd go to lighting and flow, then if those were good I'd look at chemical contaminents like other corals, or a houshold chemical near the tank. it's amazing how far some windex or frebreeze will float around in the air, even if sprayed right on the surface to be cleaned. Not sure how to remedy that. Huge water changes? lots of GAC? Replace the wife's cleaners with RODI water so she doesn't accidentaly get anyhting near te tank?

I do obsese over my tank though, always tinkering with it every day making sure everything looks good, so I'm able to get away with not having everything so automated. If anything is out of wack, I'd see it pretty quickly and adjust.

I hope you do find what's been causing s many problems with the SPS that you want. After you make changes you could try to find somewhere that has some 5$ SPS frags and throw it in to test the waters. I'd hate to be constantly losing $30+ frags.

[xdunaticx]

Do you think some one ran copper in your tank?

[kurfer]

You realize that what you have pictured is for sunrise/sunset/clouds only? These arent your actual light settings throughout the day.

incorrect, here is my current real time setting:

http://i.imgur.com/ByeSIr2.jpg

Matches what my settings are during peak times.

[kurfer]

Do you guys rip out SPS at the first sign of RTN/STN?

[power boat jim]

Do you guys rip out SPS at the first sign of RTN/STN?

No, For stn if the problem can be corrected,every now and then the coral can recover especially if you can frag it. RTN is nearly always a death sentence no matter what you do.

[Wazzel]

Nope. I have nursed some pieces back to health from STN. If the piece RTN it is over by the time you notice.

[OnlyCrimson]

Without reading too much of this, one of the best things you can do is get back to basics. Good quality water mix and water changes frequently to start. I kept my 60 cube going for about 6 years and yes it was expensive but it was not very difficult. Tanks go through phases that you'll have to deal with, but with time things sort themselves out. Best of luck!

[ca1ore]

Do you guys rip out SPS at the first sign of RTN/STN?

By the time you notice RTN, it's typically taken the colony anyhow, but I get it out as quickly as possible. Frankly, with STN, I usually remove the colony, and frag the healthy parts. SPS can recover/halt STN, but often it takes the entire colony anyhow, just slower .....

[risin]

I had a similar problem which turned out to partially be chloramines.... Maybe the same for you.

[kurfer]

simple math, gotta stop rethinking this!

I just noticed something odd with my Apex DOS pump, when cleaning out my sump today and removing my pellets I noticed the motor running, a giant air bubble was brought into the line and while it was running...no alk mix (2 part) was coming out...only the calcium.

This could be why my alk numbers are so low, if i'm doing WC with my red sea pro it's probably jacking up my system. Replaced tubing in Apex, made sure was air tight and now it's working fine. Slowly brought my alk back up to 8.0 from 7.2 and will eventually keep it at 8.5-9.0 to see how my system reacts.

Giving my 2 leathers away to my LFS tomorrow. Will miss them as they filled the tank nicely! But I really want to keep colorful SPS corals!

[lynchmob3000]

I would suggest that your Nitrite is too high for that low of phosphate. I resent ly went thru this with a friend's tank. Started dosing thrive bio stimulant and the tank did a 180. He had huge fish and fed alot, and I'm sure missed some water changes. Sps browned rtn stn montis to acros didn't matter, Zoa's melting closing up turning brown. Nems were splitting moving around. I would recommend carbon in a reactor and vodka dosing and maybe a 15 to 20 percent wc. Biopellets are hard to understand so I stay away from them completely.

[morgank]

How many fish do you have in there? Don't see any in the pic...

[kurfer]

How many fish do you have in there? Don't see any in the pic...



Fish:

1 yellow tang
1 blue tang
1 six line wrasse
1 orange clown
2 black occ clowns
1 blue chromis
1 royal gramma



Never had any problem with fish only lost 2 ever; I made an idiot mistake of adding the 2 black clowns which I think caused one of my existing orange clowns to jump. Was mad at myself over that one... lesson learned.

I had a blue chromis jump; was the first pair I added to the tank after I cycled it for the first time I think the other one that's alive today bullied him.

That's all iv'e lost thus far since I started.

[BigCountry74]

Speaking of jumpers. I had a brackish green congo puffer I converted to full salt. That thing was nicknamed "ROCKY" (unkillable). It was stung twice by my foxface during feedings. Would float to the bottom paralyzed then 15 min later perk back up and swim off. Then it jumped out once. I came home and it was on the floor (I had no clue how long it had been out but I thought for sure it was dead). I slowly brought it back into the tank water and a few days later it was good to go. The most bad *** fish I have ever owned...lol I finally had to donate it back to the LFS because it started shredding my LPS. :D

[alton]

Like a couple other mentioned add more leds. When I had my Wesophyllia they would always shrink up when my CFLs needed to be changed. Birdsnest is a low light SPS, I have kept it in a PAR level as low as 100. FYI I have a friend who had 2 Hydras on a 65 and his tank looked awesome, but moving everything over to a 5' tank he now has 5 Hydras

[Timfish]

This is heresy by some standards and feel free to try everyone else's ideas first but stop using GFO. These papers help explain the role phosphate plays with Symbodinium sp. dinoflagellates:
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient%20enrichment.pdf

And I'll note that Kleypas, et al, (1999) looked at almost a thousand reefs and found an average PO4 of .13 mg/l, Kingman Island, one of the most pristine reefs in the world, has .1 mg/l PO4.

And PO4 in this system was ≈.4 mg/l with Elos Pro: http://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg

[Redrosetuscan]

I haven't read the whole thread but.....

I'd be turning all light off at night. The figures you showed must actually be quite bright at night time, where a period of total darkness is required.

I had some problems when I had hydra 52's and ran them at 1% on the blue at night. Changed to total darkness and saw improvement.

I'll also say that those lights don't do the spread they say, they may well be ok for softies and perhaps lps at covering a large area but for sps they are a very direct light source which needs to be high up and have probably double the recomended amount. At least you do have yours quite high up though.

Shame you can't get an icp test there. Very helpfull test, for all you know you may have a lot of heavy metals in the water. Don't assume you don't as there's lots of surprised people over here including myself, copper, tin, lead all making their way in with no apparant answer why ( flake food and maricultured bases I reckon).

[kurfer]

I haven't read the whole thread but.....

I'd be turning all light off at night. The figures you showed must actually be quite bright at night time, where a period of total darkness is required.

I had some problems when I had hydra 52's and ran them at 1% on the blue at night. Changed to total darkness and saw improvement.

I'll also say that those lights don't do the spread they say, they may well be ok for softies and perhaps lps at covering a large area but for sps they are a very direct light source which needs to be high up and have probably double the recomended amount. At least you do have yours quite high up though.

Shame you can't get an icp test there. Very helpfull test, for all you know you may have a lot of heavy metals in the water. Don't assume you don't as there's lots of surprised people over here including myself, copper, tin, lead all making their way in with no apparant answer why ( flake food and maricultured bases I reckon).

Tank dimensions: 48x30x24

http://i.imgur.com/zJrr4Z4.jpg

Here is how my lights are mounted...

[Jessesoto33]

What else are you dosing?

[ReefDoberman]

Some will probably disagree with this but I would bet it is actually your temp. I know that people keep SPS and Acans at high temps (over 80) but I've seen the most consistent success around 77 degrees. This is easiest and cheapest adjustment that you can make. Drop the temp down for a few days and see if it makes a difference.

I run an sps/acan/zoa dominate 180 and I have almost all of the same parameters (Alk, Calc, Mag etc...) with GFO/Carbon and was running around 79.5 degrees. I was having all the same issues. Since dropping to 77, everything is doing amazing. I have no idea if there is any scientific correlation between temp and levels in an aquarium, I am just speaking from what feels like the exact same experience.

[kenpau]

This is an interesting one, and I really hope you find the answer. I can't really add much to what people have said, except for a couple of points.
I also have a 150 gallon reef which is purely sps (mainly acros), I have 3 Hydra 52s which are on the 14k setting during the day. I also have 4 MP40s, you may need more flow in there, having said that I run my MP40s at 60% max.
I don't really agree with a couple of the points made, and I'm definitely not trying to argue with other peoples point of view....but......
I don't believe that you have to syphon your tank and use a turkey baster on rock to keep a successful sps reef, I have seen some amazing tanks and the owners do not do any kind of maintenance like that, what you need is flow and a good skimmer, this should take care of your detritus.
There was a couple of comments about only keeping corals that your tank 'allows' you to keep, why?? If you want acropora, then do everything you can to rectify your problem so you can have acropora, it's your tank and it's what you want. If you stuck with softies and lps then everytime you saw an awesome Acro tank and visited your LFS you'd be ****ed that you didn't have that. It may take a little time to sort this out but it will be worth it, don't give up!
Finally have you considered going full Zeovit? I saw you were dosing a couple of products already. I am 7 weeks into a full zeovit system and can not believe the results, my ammonia/nitrite/nitrate is 0, phosphate 0, I have just started dosing supplements so my calcium is 443, magnesium is low at 1100 and Alk is 7.86, these values have been fluctuating over the last couple of weeks as I find the correct dosing amount.
I am getting amazing growth from acropora frags, this is 7 weeks from first putting water in a new system, as I said, I don't vacuum sand, I don't use a turkey baster on rocks. I have high flow, high lighting, a great skimmer and use Zeovit. You're not far away from managing this in my opinion.

Paul

[psykobowler]

My "secret" to sps:

High Magnesium - 1400+
Stable Alk
Periodic dosing of Kalkwasser (keeps ph high and adds calcium to the system)
Low and manageable phosphate
Ozone
Oysterfeast/Elos Amino Acid/fish poop
Temp - lower than 80degrees Fahrenheit is better. They are less stressed with lower temp and more focused on growing and spreading
Higher water volume on your system the better. It gets easier when water volume is higher than 200gallons, tank parameters has the tendency to change slower.

Lastly, buy corals from other reefers with tank raised sps. The ones from the store are either wild or mariculture - they are not as hardy as the ones grown in captivity with synthetic salt. Even the people with full blown sps reef has a hard time keeping mariculture or wild pieces alive or keep their color.

[kenpau]

Lastly, buy corals from other reefers with tank raised sps. The ones from the store are either wild or mariculture - they are not as hardy as the ones grown in captivity with synthetic salt. Even the people with full blown sps reef has a hard time keeping mariculture or wild pieces alive or keep their color.

Very, very good point! Frags all the way...

[joshky]

Hey Kurfer, I didn't see anyone bring this up but there's a good chance it may be the cause. People have found using those marinepure ceramic blocks lead to elevated levels of aluminum, here is a thread on it.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453931

I would send some water out for triton testing and see.

[Spyderturbo007]

I am in the exact same boat. I've explored every option imaginable over the last 2 years with no success. The only think I can assume is that there is something I can't test for that's killing my coral. I have no coraline algae growth and things grow very, very slowly when they aren't dying. I would put money on it being that my live rock was used. I bought it from the LFS and found reef putty on it when I brought it home. I didn't know what it was for months and just thought it was part of the rock.

I thought I had it licked a few weeks ago when I turned down the Red / Amber channels on my LED, began feeding heavily and adding some KZ coral products. Things started to color up and for the first time in a year, my Montipora started growing and I saw some polyp extension.

I was so excited. My wife and I must have looked at the coral for an hour. All my other SPS had died when I initially switched to LEDs and used the power settings provided by the manufacturer. I cut them all off the rock and threw away the dead skeletons. Within the last few weeks the small spots of them began exhibiting life again.

I woke up the next morning and the Montipora had no PE, the flesh had fallen off and it was covered with algae. The other small spots of SPS were dying as well.

If I didn't love my fish so much, I would put the entire thing out for the trash.

[Reefin' Dude]

kurfer-what corals are your must have corals?

i suspect that your available inorganic nutrient are to high to support SPS, but right in the wheelhouse for the LPS and the softies. they system is just to eutrophic to support the SPS. this is also indicated by problems keeping any hermatypic organism.

if you would like to lower the trophic state of the system to be more to the liking of the SPS, then start by siphoning out detritus. i would start by what could be hiding behind the LR structure if possible. removing detritus removes the source of the inorganic nutrients. if you have any hobby refugium, i would remove everything from it and start using it as a settling chamber for detritus. start removing the detritus that will accumulate there every water change.

the reason why keeping SPS is expensive is that we keep trying to fight nature. if we just work with it, than keeping SPS is actually very easy and not any more expensive than any other SW organisms.

G~

[rmchoi]

kurfer— I too experienced the same issues with keeping SPS. In my previous system, similar corals thrived like LPS, but SPS did not do so well or had STN. I share similar regimented water quality monitoring and maintenance.

The other thing we share are LED lights. I am convinced changing to or adding T5 or metal halide lighting would have improved the ability to grow SPS. How much improvement - not sure, but likely not any worse. I have decided to stay with the LED because they are quiet, low heat and low energy vs. T5/ metal halide fan noise, high wattage and heat impact. I finally accepted adjusting to what will grow under LED, instead of putting everything that looks appealing and hoping it to thrive, then die. If SPS is what you want, then have you considered changing to or adding T5/ metal halide lights? I think small tweaks are good, but lighting might be one of the bigger factors, if not the biggest.

The last observation is keeping softies with SPS may cause some toxin issues. Leathers are toxic toward other corals due to their release of terpenoids (poisons used to ward off encroaching corals). They have been known to harm some SPS and LPS. Sure there will always be exceptions of mixed reefs, but generally speaking, I think this might be worth considering.

[fredro]

kurfer— I too experienced the same issues with keeping SPS. In my previous system, similar corals thrived like LPS, but SPS did not do so well or had STN. I share similar regimented water quality monitoring and maintenance.

The other thing we share are LED lights. I am convinced changing to or adding T5 or metal halide lighting would have improved the ability to grow SPS. How much improvement - not sure, but likely not any worse. I have decided to stay with the LED because they are quiet, low heat and low energy vs. T5/ metal halide fan noise, high wattage and heat impact. I finally accepted adjusting to what will grow under LED, instead of putting everything that looks appealing and hoping it to thrive, then die. If SPS is what you want, then have you considered changing to or adding T5/ metal halide lights? I think small tweaks are good, but lighting might be one of the bigger factors, if not the biggest.

The last observation is keeping softies with SPS may cause some toxin issues. Leathers are toxic toward other corals due to their release of terpenoids (poisons used to ward off encroaching corals). They have been known to harm some SPS and LPS. Sure there will always be exceptions of mixed reefs, but generally speaking, I think this might be worth considering.


Which LED fixture were you using that you attributed to your inability to grow SPS?

[Stackemdeep]

My red sea coral pro always mixes at 380 calc, 7.0 alk and 1100 mag. Sometimes I see 9.0 alk, water changes are not big enough at 15% to make that much difference.

All the RS coral pro that I have ever used has mixed to 460,12.5DKH and 1400 mg so something is not correct. To validate, use a kitchen gram scale and weigh 125 grams of RSCP salt for each gallon of RODI, mix for 4 hours and then test the big 3 again. Forget the refractometer for this test and actually measure the grams. If you are getting the numbers you posted, then you have a very unique batch of RSCP salt and it needs to be replaced. When I switched to the blue bucket, It still produced 440,9.0 & 1320@ 1.026

From the Bucket and web site:
Aquarium Type Salinity Alkalinity (dKH/meq/l) Ca (mg/l) Mg (mg/l) K (mg/l) Dose
Fish 30.6 ppt 11.3 – 11.7 /4 – 4.1 400 – 420 1185 – 1245 340 – 360 33.4 g/l
Non-Coral 33.0 ppt 11.8 –12.2 / 4.2 – 4.3 430 – 450 1280 – 1340 370 – 390 36.0 g/l
Corals 35.0 ppt 12.3 – 12.7 / 4.4 – 4.5 455 – 475 1360 – 1420 390 – 410 38.2 g/l

[power boat jim]

I can't keep SPS, when I finally get a frag to take off it dies all of a sudden overnight.

I check my alk daily, it stays between 7.4 and 7.8. My calc is always right around 410 and mag I keep around 1320. I use an Apex to monitor PH which stays stable at 8.1-7.9; my salinity probe keeps me in check as well as my temp probes holding at 79.

No matter what I feed, what I do...the following WILL NOT live in my tank:

Acans, will look good for 2 weeks then shrivel up and NEVER open.
Trachyphyllia & Wellsophyllia, usually shrivel up before 3 days and slowly die while in shrunken state, love to lose color.
Zoas, they just don't stay open and eventually wither away...even the cheap green ones
Acros, basically will never have PE and eventually die through a sudden random RTN event

What I can keep:

Hammer corals - had some die but most have grown nicely
Frogspawns - had a few die but mainly they flourish and grow
Birdnest - grows like crazy
Toadstool - grows
Torch corals - growing like crazy
green star polyps - open and close randomly, seems to be ok? Not really spreading though
xenia - colony seems to have stopped spreading but always open and flowing

Jury still out:

Duncans, some seem ok but often close up
RBTA, have one in my tank...was doing great and split into two, now both shriveled and moving all over

So basically my tank has nice frogspawns, torches and hammer corals but everything else is hit or miss and SPS other than birdsnest and monti caps always seem to die.



.

[QUOTE=rmchoi;23534148]kurfer— I too experienced the same issues with keeping SPS. In my previous system, similar corals thrived like LPS, but SPS did not do so well or had STN. I share similar regimented water quality monitoring and maintenance.

The other thing we share are LED lights. I am convinced changing to or adding T5 or metal halide lighting would have improved the ability to grow SPS. How much improvement - not sure, but likely not any worse. I have decided to stay with the LED because they are quiet, low heat and low energy vs. T5/ metal halide fan noise, high wattage and heat impact. I finally accepted adjusting to what will grow under LED, instead of putting everything that looks appealing and hoping it to thrive, then die. If SPS is what you want, then have you considered changing to or adding T5/ metal halide lights? I think small tweaks are good, but lighting might be one of the bigger factors, if not the biggest.QUOTE


Please read the original post, I cant believe any of those problems are due to LED use. Having someone make a change in lighting is expensive and not likely to help this problem. Full spectrum leds are perfectly capable of supporting any type coral over a long period of time. Sure some of the growth and color may differ from other light sources but leds do not cause mass rtn outbreaks over night and kill nearly every species of coral it touches.

[Wazzel]

kurfer— I too experienced the same issues with keeping SPS. In my previous system, similar corals thrived like LPS, but SPS did not do so well or had STN. I share similar regimented water quality monitoring and maintenance.

The other thing we share are LED lights. I am convinced changing to or adding T5 or metal halide lighting would have improved the ability to grow SPS. How much improvement - not sure, but likely not any worse. I have decided to stay with the LED because they are quiet, low heat and low energy vs. T5/ metal halide fan noise, high wattage and heat impact. I finally accepted adjusting to what will grow under LED, instead of putting everything that looks appealing and hoping it to thrive, then die. If SPS is what you want, then have you considered changing to or adding T5/ metal halide lights? I think small tweaks are good, but lighting might be one of the bigger factors, if not the biggest.

The last observation is keeping softies with SPS may cause some toxin issues. Leathers are toxic toward other corals due to their release of terpenoids (poisons used to ward off encroaching corals). They have been known to harm some SPS and LPS. Sure there will always be exceptions of mixed reefs, but generally speaking, I think this might be worth considering.

AI Hydra52's are more than capable of growing SPS and doing it well. Might have to fine tune the settings and operations, but no reason to dump them. The problems do not sound like lighting.

[Wazzel]

Thanks for the reply.

I keep my tank at 35ppt, using 3 refratometer's calibrated via solution and LFS (3 different stores). I really only use the Apex as a tool to measure my change in salinity and rather ignore the actual number (reads 36.8) calibration on that tool is spotty at best. I just like a reference number to see how much it changes after WC and to alert in case of ATO failure.

3 alk test kits...dont keep them long I test pretty much daily so I go through them alot.

SPS stay on top of rocks, acans on sandbed. The one in the shade is actually the worst off.

Lights are:

2 hydra 52 12 inches above water and here are my light settings:

http://i.imgur.com/L7vffjH.jpg

Just so you know, those settings get you about 48% of the power of the fixture. So instead of having something about equal to a 250 watt MH you have more like a 100-125 equivalent. You need more light for sure. Think you have something else going on that is the cause.

[Stackemdeep]

Full spectrum leds are perfectly capable of supporting any type coral over a long period of time. Sure some of the growth and color may differ from other light sources but leds do not cause mass rtn outbreaks over night and kill nearly every species of coral it touches.

^Agreed. The only issue I had with sps when I switched to LED was having them hung too low, irritating the coral with spotlighting and not realizing how strong they really were so I actually starved them by keeping the water too clean. I use a relatively inexpensive Reefbreeder and have no problems with SPS. I have no fancy equipment, use Kalk in the ATO and the sps are growing well. I don't even monitor PH. I will say that both growth and color improved when I removed the GFO & GAC reactors. Moving my lighting up from 12" to 17" off the water improved blending and took care of the spotlighting issues.

[kurfer]

Running Zeo seems like another big headache and i'm not sure i'm advanced enough to deal with it.

I am going to keep my Alk steady at 8.5 and keep siphoning out as much detritus as I possible can. Again, my biggest issue is that I don't see anything on the rock to blow off. When I use a turkey baster I see nothing coming off the rocks.

[Reefin' Dude]

i would drop alk to around 7. get the alk, Ca, and Mg to NSW levels. if you are having a hard time keeping alk up, then another indicator that eutrophication is in effect. the bacteria are using up your alk to process the detritus in the substrate.

the LR is not the problem, it is the substrate. LR is self cleaning. if you have enough flow in the system, then there should be little detrital blow off from the LR. all of that detritus from the LR is settling into the substrate.

G~

[anthonys51]

Seems you are spending a lot of money. Why don't you hire someone to upkeep your tank

[reefgeezer]

i suspect that your available inorganic nutrient are to high to support SPS, ...~

What are the inorganic nutrients you speak of?

[joshky]

Hey Kurfer, I didn't see anyone bring this up but there's a good chance it may be the cause. People have found using those marinepure ceramic blocks lead to elevated levels of aluminum, here is a thread on it.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453931

I would send some water out for triton testing and see.

Look into this, really. Good luck figuring things out.

[Reefin' Dude]

What are the inorganic nutrients you speak of?

nitrates and phosphates. the testable forms.

G~

[macdaddynick1]

+1 on the light being too low . Also and that's just purely my hypothesis. There could be a bacteria in your water that is not so good for the corals it will consume the coral if it is damaged causing quick recession on some and shorter on others. It happens to the corals that get damaged in my tank when I dose carbon. As soon as I stop carbon dosing all the recession slows down. Since I have 2 tanks I move all the damaged corals from dt to my frag tank and the corals usually recover . So in conclusion be that part of your problem could be carbon dosing. Also there could be several causes . So have someone else test if you have stray voltage, check your params metals in the water and just look at your tank , without your bias input.

[reefgeezer]

nitrates and phosphates. the testable forms.

G~

5/.03 ppm nitrate/phosphate? That seems ok to me. What kind of test kits are being used?

[Reefin' Dude]

150G
2 AI Hydra 52
lifereef skimmer (large model)


what pump are you using on your skimmer? how much flow are you moving through your sump? i like to match the flow through the sump to the processing rate of the skimmer. the less water that goes shooting by the skimmer the better, IMO. it can be hard to find flow rates through skimmers. manufacturers like to post pump rates of unmodified pumps. i find that the actual flow rates are closer 33% of that rate.

from your description it sounds like the skimmer is your primary nutrient export mechanism. while it is a good one, it is not able to get to the larger waste material.

Nitrates stay around 5
Phosphates .03 and jump to .09 if I turn GFO off


i expect that the levels would go even higher if you were to stop carbon dosing. these tested levels of inorganic nutrients is higher than what is consider a low nutrient system. more towards what one would expect for a lagoon system, not an SPS system. all of the equipment is trying its best, but it can not keep up with the decomposition of the waste organic material that has accumulated in the system.


Korallen Amino acid per instructions daily (6 drops)
Korallen Pohl's Coral Vitalizer (6 drops daily)

reef roids/oyster feast 1-2 times per week

Daily feeding of Neptune crossover via AFS


unless you are removing as much "food" material as you put in (minus growth for the must have organisms), the system is gaining in mass. the system is becoming more and more nutrient rich with every feeding.

15% weekly water changes with red sea coral pro. Also use a BRS 5 stage RODI.


when you do water changes are you removing waste organic material or just changing the water itself. water is not the source of the nutrients it is just a carrier. it will not take long for the source of the nutrients to fill all of that new water back up with nutrients. when doing water change remove the waste organic material. if not, then you are not keeping up with the inputs.

Carbon/GFO reactor
Ecobak pellets in TLF reactor

1 cup HC GFO monthly
1.4 cup Carbon monthly



the equipment is just masking the affects of eutrophication from the build up of waste organic material. either in the substrate or in areas that are not accessible by flow. take away the waste organic material before it has a chance to decompose, lessneed for the equipment.

G~

[dkeller_nc]

Running Zeo seems like another big headache and i'm not sure i'm advanced enough to deal with it.

I am going to keep my Alk steady at 8.5 and keep siphoning out as much detritus as I possible can. Again, my biggest issue is that I don't see anything on the rock to blow off. When I use a turkey baster I see nothing coming off the rocks.

I've read through this entire thread. Much of what you're doing is the right initial things - stop dosing mystery products, remove the bio pellets, and get control of your minor element concentrations (alk, Ca & Mg).

One of my thoughts is precisely the opposite of what the comments have been about your lights. I don't have the Hydra 52s, but did have 2 Vegas 14" off of the water on a tank 22" deep. Setting the Vegas for about 65% blue/royal blue/deep blue and about 55% white intensity was absolutely nuking the SPS that was about 1/2 up the water column. And the Vegas are a bit weaker fixture than you're using. It was enough to actually sun-burn a new clam acquisition that was placed on the sand (fortunately, I realized what was happening and the clam survived).

That said, I was running a bit longer light program than yours - my total photoperiod was about 15 hours, with the actual effective lighting part about 12 hours a day, and the intense period of light at about 5 hours.

Without a PAR meter, it's really difficult to judge the intensity of LEDs. What I can tell you without doubt is that most SPS will survive absolutely fine at much, much lower intensities than one would expect. They don't grow all that much - higher intensities are required for that - but they don't die, either. If you want to experiment, you can move a couple of frags away from the "light islands" in your tank and see how they do.

Back to more important possibilities: Your nutrient concentrations, btw, are absolutely fine. The idea that a very slightly elevated phosphate and/or nitrate is causing your RTN problems is way, way off the mark. And there are tons and tons of examples in the SPS forum to back that up. So don't concern yourself with this.

It's absolutely unnecessary to vacuum your sandbed with every water change, or stir it up in any way shape, or form. You can do it if you want, but it's most certainly not necessary nor even all that beneficial. I've a 20 gallon nano with very rapidly growing SPS that has had the same 2" sandbed for the last 10 years. Very occasionally I may vacuum the sand within 2" of the front glass, but the rest of it remains undisturbed.

The one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up in this thread is water. While it's not true that you need to constantly obsess over 0 TDS water as long as you're running a proper RODI system, it's most definitely the case that you need to maintain it. When was the last time you changed your carbon (and what do you use), DI resin and RO membrane?

[Reefin' Dude]

5/.03 ppm nitrate/phosphate? That seems ok to me. What kind of test kits are being used?

i find the tested values of NSW levels something to shoot for. (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php)

0.005ppm is what i would shoot for when keeping SPS.

0.03ppm is where i would want to keep a system for softies and LPS.

one can also use various organisms as indicators of nutrient levels. the more coralline the lower the available inorganic levels, the more algae, even in live sumps is a good indicator that inorganic nutrient levels are increasing.

G~

[Mom2jayden]

Imo you need a couple more hydras. I don't think 2 is enough. I have 4 Sols on my 125 gallon.

[reefgeezer]

...back to more important possibilities: Your nutrient concentrations, btw, are absolutely fine. The idea that a very slightly elevated phosphate and/or nitrate is causing your rtn problems is way, way off the mark. And there are tons and tons of examples in the sps forum to back that up. So don't concern yourself with this...

...the one thing i haven't seen anyone bring up in this thread is water. While it's not true that you need to constantly obsess over 0 tds water as long as you're running a proper rodi system, it's most definitely the case that you need to maintain it. When was the last time you changed your carbon (and what do you use), di resin and ro membrane?

+1

[kurfer]

I've read through this entire thread. Much of what you're doing is the right initial things - stop dosing mystery products, remove the bio pellets, and get control of your minor element concentrations (alk, Ca & Mg).

One of my thoughts is precisely the opposite of what the comments have been about your lights. I don't have the Hydra 52s, but did have 2 Vegas 14" off of the water on a tank 22" deep. Setting the Vegas for about 65% blue/royal blue/deep blue and about 55% white intensity was absolutely nuking the SPS that was about 1/2 up the water column. And the Vegas are a bit weaker fixture than you're using. It was enough to actually sun-burn a new clam acquisition that was placed on the sand (fortunately, I realized what was happening and the clam survived).

That said, I was running a bit longer light program than yours - my total photoperiod was about 15 hours, with the actual effective lighting part about 12 hours a day, and the intense period of light at about 5 hours.

Without a PAR meter, it's really difficult to judge the intensity of LEDs. What I can tell you without doubt is that most SPS will survive absolutely fine at much, much lower intensities than one would expect. They don't grow all that much - higher intensities are required for that - but they don't die, either. If you want to experiment, you can move a couple of frags away from the "light islands" in your tank and see how they do.

Back to more important possibilities: Your nutrient concentrations, btw, are absolutely fine. The idea that a very slightly elevated phosphate and/or nitrate is causing your RTN problems is way, way off the mark. And there are tons and tons of examples in the SPS forum to back that up. So don't concern yourself with this.

It's absolutely unnecessary to vacuum your sandbed with every water change, or stir it up in any way shape, or form. You can do it if you want, but it's most certainly not necessary nor even all that beneficial. I've a 20 gallon nano with very rapidly growing SPS that has had the same 2" sandbed for the last 10 years. Very occasionally I may vacuum the sand within 2" of the front glass, but the rest of it remains undisturbed.

The one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up in this thread is water. While it's not true that you need to constantly obsess over 0 TDS water as long as you're running a proper RODI system, it's most definitely the case that you need to maintain it. When was the last time you changed your carbon (and what do you use), DI resin and RO membrane?

Changed my complete RODI filter/resins (brs package) out in late October. I make 50 gallons of RODI per week...

Output shows 0 TDS using the complete BRS 5 stage 75gpd system.

Nitrates/phos undetectable in fresh water. The DI resin is slighty brown at very bottom and dark blue 90%.

[dkeller_nc]

Changed my complete RODI filter/resins (brs package) out in late October. I make 50 gallons of RODI per week...

Output shows 0 TDS using the complete BRS 5 stage 75gpd system.

Nitrates/phos undetectable in fresh water. The DI resin is slighty brown at very bottom and dark blue 90%.

You're probably OK on the water, though it's time to change out your carbon. Given that's the case, and assuming you've stopped dosing anything other than Ca & Alk (and you're not making rapid adjustments to the amount delivered per day), and you've removed the bio-pellets from your system, I'd suggest waiting a week and seeing how things look. If there are no more casualties of SPS frags that weren't already compromised, I'd be pointing the finger at the bio-pellets, personally.

One other thought - you don't say how you're obtaining your SPS frags and what conditions that source is keeping them in, and how long they take to expire in your system.

[Nano sapiens]

It's absolutely unnecessary to vacuum your sandbed with every water change, or stir it up in any way shape, or form. You can do it if you want, but it's most certainly not necessary nor even all that beneficial. I've a 20 gallon nano with very rapidly growing SPS that has had the same 2" sandbed for the last 10 years. Very occasionally I may vacuum the sand within 2" of the front glass, but the rest of it remains undisturbed.


Somewhat off topic (sorry OP), but I'm always interested to find continuously long running nano tanks without any major changes (such as major gravel or live rock replacement). Do you have a build thread or even a pic or two?

[dkeller_nc]

No build thread (I wasn't a member of a reef 'net forum when I set it up in 2004), though there's a couple of pics in the ROTM Dec 2013 thread. The tank's changed quite a bit in appearance in that the acropora, montipora and turbinaria corals have grown a great deal.

As you might guess, the tank hasn't been completely static for (now 11) years, though the rock, sand and basic arrangement has stayed the same. A fair number of corals have simply out-grown the tank and had to be moved elsewhere.

[Nano sapiens]

Yes, I can see the good sized corals in the pics in the ROTM Dec 2013 thread.

If you aren't disturbing the sand bed much at all, then do you use a skimmer, GAC, GFO, etc.? My 12g is coming up on 7 years now, but since I don't use any mechanical filtration or chemical media I have found that regular water changes and vacuuming are essential in controling NO3 and PO4 with my 1" deep shallow aragonite sand bed.

[dkeller_nc]

Yes, I can see the good sized corals in the pics in the ROTM Dec 2013 thread.

If you aren't disturbing the sand bed much at all, then do you use a skimmer, GAC, GFO, etc.? My 12g is coming up on 7 years now, but since I don't use any mechanical filtration or chemical media I have found that regular water changes and vacuuming are essential in controling NO3 and PO4 with my 1" deep shallow aragonite sand bed.

The corals pictured are now 2-3 times that size, and beginning to be a problem. A clean-out may have to occur shortly.

In the beginning of this tank, I used a Tunze centrifugal skimmer and occasionally GAC. Water changes were about 20% per week. Now I run GAC and GFO continuously, and have a R.O. 180 classic in the sump. Lighting is 2 65w PC bulbs, one's a combo 460/12k, and one's a dual 460nm. The biggest difference in husbandry over the last 11 years has been carbon dosing - I dose about 1.5 mL of vinegar into this tank every night. Nitrates went from 20-40ppm to undetectable, and stayed that way.

[Grandlotus]

Water, light and flow = win.

[Nano sapiens]

The corals pictured are now 2-3 times that size, and beginning to be a problem. A clean-out may have to occur shortly.

In the beginning of this tank, I used a Tunze centrifugal skimmer and occasionally GAC. Water changes were about 20% per week. Now I run GAC and GFO continuously, and have a R.O. 180 classic in the sump. Lighting is 2 65w PC bulbs, one's a combo 460/12k, and one's a dual 460nm. The biggest difference in husbandry over the last 11 years has been carbon dosing - I dose about 1.5 mL of vinegar into this tank every night. Nitrates went from 20-40ppm to undetectable, and stayed that way.

Thanks for the detailed info. The way I look at it, as long as the method used ends up creating a long lasting, healthy environment...it's all good :)

[PhaneSoul]

Dosing any form of carbon has its drawbacks on the bacteria. Your giving a new food source, one that may be rather limited in our systems. Carbon.

In a system that has nothing dosed, doesn't run any extra equipment and no other doodads the heterotrophic bacteria break down organics into ammonia. the autotrophic bacteria then take that ammonia and thru a few processes turn it in to nitrate and in healthy conditions into nitrogen gas.

when you carbon dose your giving the bacteria a new, formerly limited, food source. the ratios between N & C change and the heterotrophic then take advantage of the extra carbon and become the main nitrifiers in the system. they are able to convert ammonia straight to nitrogen gas and bind nitrogen to their beings, no nitrites or nitrates are put into the water column. this may starve the autotrophic bacteria of food since the heterotrophic bacteria are able to propagate several times faster then autotrophic bacteria. BTW bacterial blooms (of the common cloudy water type)are often heterotrophic in nature. The side effects of having heterotrophic bacteria as the main nitrifiers is bacterial flock, and lots of it. autotrophic bacteria's side effects are nitrates, heterotrophic bacteria's is excess bacterial flock.

With the autotrophic bacteria's numbers limited they are either getting their food source from any excess nutrients in the water column or from the rocks. the water column would be a first priority because its easier. pulling nutrients from the rocks takes more energy and bacteria are lazy. With the impaired autotrophic bacteria population impaired they wont be able to keep up with liberating phosphates from the rock, thus leading to excess nutrients within the rock. this could be why some of your corals RTN and some don't. some rocks may be full of nutrients and some are not. You can test this by taking one of your corals that appear to be doing good and switching it with one that's not so well off.

Detritus. Like I said before, heterotrophic create a lot more bacterial flock when you carbon dose. if your not exporting more then whats being imported (IE: Siphoning your sandbed) that bacterial flock is going to settle in your rocks, sandbed, nooks and crannies of your rock and further decompose releasing inorganic N & P back into the water column, the same N & P you just bound to the bacteria flock by carbon dosing therefore making carbon dosing a problem, not a nutrient exporter. OP stated when he took the phos reactor offline phos went from .03 to .09, wonder why.

http://m.avto.aslo.info/lo/toc/vol_43/issue_1/0088.pdf
https://marine.rutgers.edu/pubs/private/AmmermanEEM02.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004484860600216X
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24186453
http://www.scribd.com/doc/182676082/Understanding-Heterotrophic-Systems

You can believe what myself & Reefin' Dude are telling you, you can read for yourself, or you can continue what your doing and wonder why your system is failing. I dare you to try it our way.

[PhaneSoul]

Forgot this one...
http://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncw/f/gills2006-1.pdf

[kurfer]

I never said I wouldn't try it your way. :)

Pellets offline, alk will stay 8.5. I'll siphon the hell out of my sandbed every day until I feel it's "caught up". I cleaned my sump out today with a shop vac. May take those ceramic blocks out of the sump. Still not sure if I need more lighting...

I bought a 1350 gph power head that I'll use to blow off my rocks every wc.

[Nano sapiens]

Subtle changes there, Grasshopper. I'd strongly recommend vacuuming the sand bed just one section (~1/8) at a time maybe once a week so that you don't liberate too much nastiness all at once. Much safer...

[PhaneSoul]

nice.

what about the carbon dosing?

[PhaneSoul]

Subtle changes there, Grasshopper. I'd strongly recommend vacuuming the sand bed just one section (~1/8) at a time maybe once a week so that you don't liberate too much nastiness all at once. Much safer...

yes that too. although the changes are for the better, changes still need to be made slowly.

[CStrickland]

Also, selfishly, if you change one thing at a time it helps us noobs learn cause we can better tell what worked :)

[overexposed]

Also, selfishly, if you change one thing at a time it helps us noobs learn cause we can better tell what worked :)
It also helps him learn for himself what worked... in case he ever has another issue in the future.

[kurfer]

nice.

what about the carbon dosing?

Still need to figure out strategy. I depend on automation as I never know if I need to go out of town for work. This means often times leaving fiancé in charge of daily tasks. Carbon dosing is not a task I trust her with. :)

My first thought is to switch to a calc reactor, this frees up my Neptune dos for automated carbon dosing (vinegar or vodka, open to suggestions).

Switching to Red Sea blue tub for lower alk.

[kurfer]

Also I'm going to make a video of my sump and dt cleaning process I do with WC. Hopefully I can get some good feedback to help myself and others.

[PhaneSoul]

well like I said, id go back to letting the autotrophic bacteria handle it or your rock may never get clean. yeah you will have to deal with nitrates but that's where good husbandry comes into play. once I get my tank set back up im going to experiment with dosing maybe like 1/16th or 1/8th of what a carbon dosing setup would do to see if I can still have autotrophic bacteria as the main and sortve use heterotrophic to maintain a 10ppm nitrate (softie/lps tank).

[kurfer]

well like I said, id go back to letting the autotrophic bacteria handle it or your rock may never get clean. yeah you will have to deal with nitrates but that's where good husbandry comes into play. once I get my tank set back up im going to experiment with dosing maybe like 1/16th or 1/8th of what a carbon dosing setup would do to see if I can still have autotrophic bacteria as the main and sortve use heterotrophic to maintain a 10ppm nitrate (softie/lps tank).

Sorry to sound like an idiot but are you saying to not carbon dose or to just dose small?

[foundnemo11]

Maybe your test kits are off. I had a hell of a time trying to keep corals to me I was doing everything right. Then I got a better refractometer and test kits and realized I was off on a few things. Now my tank is awesome

[bdare]

I'd stop dosing aa and remove the pellets. Get back to basics. Didn't see... Do you have a refugium with macro?

[dunkinbanks.db]

Have u tried buying a new test kit

[PhaneSoul]

Sorry to sound like an idiot but are you saying to not carbon dose or to just dose small?

im saying not to carbon dose. don't stop doing it all together, slowly ween the tank off of it.

I was also saying im going to run an experiment in the future, cuz I like experiments.

[Aqua Chemist]

Bobbit worm lurking somewhere maybe

[kenpau]

It's absolutely unnecessary to vacuum your sandbed with every water change, or stir it up in any way shape, or form. You can do it if you want, but it's most certainly not necessary nor even all that beneficial. I've a 20 gallon nano with very rapidly growing SPS that has had the same 2" sandbed for the last 10 years. Very occasionally I may vacuum the sand within 2" of the front glass, but the rest of it remains undisturbed.

Thank you!!!! I'm glad someone else thinks this is unnecessary as I do!

If you are having to vacuum your sandbed then there is something wrong with your system because that is why we spend thousands of dollars on skimmers and powerheads!

[CHSUB]

nothing wrong with doing a little house cleaning and lowering nutrients some. the lower the better, with heavy inputs of food is always a recipe for success. however, removing the bio-pellets is a excellent idea and forget about carbon dosing it does the same thing. like others have said "back to the basics".

[dkeller_nc]

Thanks for the detailed info. The way I look at it, as long as the method used ends up creating a long lasting, healthy environment...it's all good :)

One correction - That should've been R.O. Classic 110 Space Saver skimmer. They make so many models now it's hard to keep up. ;)

[Nano sapiens]

Thank you!!!! I'm glad someone else thinks this is unnecessary as I do!

If you are having to vacuum your sandbed then there is something wrong with your system because that is why we spend thousands of dollars on skimmers and powerheads!

Nutrients need to be removed from the system in some manner. You can have technological aids help you with this or you can take a more manual, hands-on approach which doesn't cost 'thousands of dollars'.

The methodology used is up to the reef keeper, but to proclaim that 'vacuuming the sandbed is unnecessary and if you do something is wrong with your system' is a patently false statment since it doesn't apply to all reef keeping methodologies.

[dkeller_nc]

Sorry to sound like an idiot but are you saying to not carbon dose or to just dose small?

If you wish to do so, I'd highly recommend reading Randy Holmes Farley's article on the subject here (http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium). Keep in mind that while it's true that vinegar dosing and vodka dosing are equivalent from the standpoint of what it adds to the system (acetate), bio-pellets are not the same thing.

Bio pellets are generally poly-3-hydroxybutyrate, though the exact formulation varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. And it's certainly true that the monomers released from the plastic are "carbon", and in a form that's usable by bacteria. However, there's certain aspects of bio-pellets that make their practical use in a reef tank a bit different than vodka or vinegar dosing. Specifically, the dissolution of the pellets to the monomer in solution is not under control of the reefer - it depends on how much is in the system, the pH of the tank water, the specific formulation of the bio pellets and the degree to which the polymer is cross-linked, and other factors. I think you'll find that most us that hang out in the Chemistry section don't care for bio-pellets because of the unknowns, and because vinegar dosing is very easy, very forgiving, and proven.

BTW - the reason I asked you where you got your coral, and how long it took for the ones in your tank to RTN has to do with light acclimation. Many LFS have their SPS frags under fairly low light, and the coral acclimates to these conditions. When they're put into a reefer's tank, particularly under intense, highly focused LEDs, they can undergo light shock. The symptoms can take the form of out-an-out bleaching, but also STN and RTN.

[PhaneSoul]

Randy Holmes did not take into consideration a whole bunch of things. He was paid by sponsors to say this that and the other thing. I couldn't explain the whole situation, I wasn't around when it happened. But it was right here on RC, shiemex, adey and a few others have been debunked for flawed processes. It's just sad that most of that info was lost in a server crash several years ago, I think in 2005. If you want more info read this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23487307

Before you go on believing in false philosophy, ask yourself where the poop of all these micro & macro organisms is going

[Spyderturbo007]

Randy Holmes did not take into consideration a whole bunch of things. He was paid by sponsors to say this that and the other thing.


http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tumblr_ljh0puClWT1qfkt17.gif

[PhaneSoul]

Mm popcorn

[Reefin' Dude]

kurfer- it sounds like your system has a carbon addiction. the faster you stop the addiction the greater the chance of algae bloom. the slower you can do it the better. get that LR doing its job instead of the water borne bacteria.

if you want to make reef keeping less expensive than just break keeping corals down to the absolute basics. bring it back to the known good husbandry practices. feed it what it needs, and remove its waste in a timely manner. it is that simple. we walk our dogs, empty the litter boxes, flush our toilets, change the paper in the cage, and rotate pastures for a reason.

Thank you!!!! I'm glad someone else thinks this is unnecessary as I do!

If you are having to vacuum your sandbed then there is something wrong with your system because that is why we spend thousands of dollars on skimmers and powerheads!

skimmers and powerheads do not remove the large pieces of detritus. it takes a siphon to remove that. relying on only water based nutrient export methods misses the largest source of the problematic nutrients, the detritus. equate it to trying to remove poo from a bathroom by just running the fan and not actually flushing the toilet. you flush the toilet in order to remove the waste. siphon up the waste, you remove the poo. are we keeping corals as pets or poo?

G~

[reefgeezer]

Randy Holmes did not take into consideration a whole bunch of things. He was paid by sponsors to say this that and the other thing. I couldn't explain the whole situation, I wasn't around when it happened...

Buttered or plain? Do you want the large, it comes with a free refill. You may need some comfort food soon. Randy is very respected here.

[dkeller_nc]

2 7 inch filter socks (large sump), I took out the black sponge that sits between the middle and final return chamber. Replaced it will a PURA filter I change out monthly.

There are two ceramic 8” x 8” x 1” Plate MarinePure blocks sitting below my socks. That's it, everything else is bare bottom...my reactors feed the middle bay where my skimmer is.

Kurfer - A couple of additional thoughts. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the Chemistry forum regarding marinepure blocks in reef systems, specifically the suspicion that they seem to add aluminum to tank water in systems that run them. This suspicion is supported by Triton ICP tests, but it's unclear whether the aluminum in these tanks are or are not causing issues with corals, particularly soft corals.

Having said that, many of us with chemistry backgrounds won't run them in reef systems, because it's not worth taking the chance. In your particular case, and judging from your full-tank shots, I rather doubt that having them in the sump is substantially contributing to your tank's needs - you've a more than adequate amount of live rock and sand to provide surface area for the necessary bacteria. Based on that, I'd consider removing them.

I'm not sure what a "Pura" filter is; could you describe it to us?

[CHSUB]

Bio pellets are generally poly-3-hydroxybutyrate, though the exact formulation varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. And it's certainly true that the monomers released from the plastic are "carbon", and in a form that's usable by bacteria. However, there's certain aspects of bio-pellets that make their practical use in a reef tank a bit different than vodka or vinegar dosing. Specifically, the dissolution of the pellets to the monomer in solution is not under control of the reefer - it depends on how much is in the system, the pH of the tank water, the specific formulation of the bio pellets and the degree to which the polymer is cross-linked, and other factors. I think you'll find that most us that hang out in the Chemistry section don't care for bio-pellets because of the unknowns, and because vinegar dosing is very easy, very forgiving, and proven.

.

in a practical sense it's the same thing; Vinegar vs bio-pellets, trading one for another makes little sense. Vinegar dosing may be "easy" but it is far from proven. The OP is best served by reducing the varibles not increasing them...

[dkeller_nc]

in a practical sense it's the same thing; Vinegar vs bio-pellets, trading one for another makes little sense. Vinegar dosing may be "easy" but it is far from proven. The OP is best served by reducing the varibles not increasing them...

No, it isn't, for the reasons stated. Specifically, the amount of carbon added to the system via vodka or vinegar dosing is under exact control by the reefer; the dissolution of bio pellets isn't. Keep in mind that vinegar/vodka dosing has been around for quite some time, and there's a heck of a lot us using it. That's not the same thing as scientific proof in controlled trials, but there's very, very little about reefkeeping in general that has had the benefit of structured investigation.

[Reefin' Dude]

but it is. the delivery method may be different, but they are both supply elemental C to the bacteria in the water column.

oh, there is plenty of scientific data out there that is directly pertinent to the hobby, the hobby just chooses to ignore it.

G~

[dkeller_nc]

but it is. the delivery method may be different, but they are both supply elemental C to the bacteria in the water column.

Yes indeed, but how much is supplied to water column and in what form is at issue.

[PhaneSoul]

Buttered please. Extra large.

Money talks. People follow fads, they don't want to think for themselves. You see a commercial on tv for a automatic dog walker, are you gonna get it? Of course! Because you want the dog but you don't want to properly take care of it.

When you read his work, all you have to do is ask, where does the poop go? Surely it doesn't get pushes to the top of the sandbed. Yeah there are organisms that eat other organisms poop, but they poop too so where does that go? Do all the organisms have their mouths attached to the others butt? Does gravity get completely ignored in our systems?

You all talk about denitrification within the sandbed. You you even understand how it works? Because I can tell you, this graphic right here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1652103&highlight=denitrification+cycle
Is not a accurate representation. I've been trying to grasp the nitrogen cycle for months now, it's so complicated with loops, pathways and recycling chemicals going on, it is NOT a linear conversion like we are all taught, ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate ect.

You blindly follow the advice of few people that are were paid by sponsors to put out incomplete data, they got rich while you buy the product and when something goes wrong it's always the users fault.

How many of you let that bs slide when you buy a tv and it dies in a year? Do you chalk it up to 'oh well it was built right, I just broke it because I pressed the power button and the channel up button at the same time'

[PhaneSoul]

in a practical sense it's the same thing; Vinegar vs bio-pellets, trading one for another makes little sense. Vinegar dosing may be "easy" but it is far from proven. The OP is best served by reducing the varibles not increasing them...

Had you followed the link(s) I provided previously, I gave a experiment with carbon dosing and marine environment.

Like reefin' dude said, there is plenty scientific info out there.

It is you at fault for blindly following the words of few instead of following the science

[Reefin' Dude]

Randy Holmes did not take into consideration a whole bunch of things. He was paid by sponsors to say this that and the other thing. I couldn't explain the whole situation, I wasn't around when it happened. But it was right here on RC, shiemex, adey and a few others have been debunked for flawed processes. It's just sad that most of that info was lost in a server crash several years ago, I think in 2005. If you want more info read this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23487307


i do not think Randy was a part of all of that.

G~

[PhaneSoul]

i do not think Randy was a part of all of that.

G~

Oh geeze for some reason for some reaso early in the mornings I get randy mixed up with shiemek early in the morning

In that case if like to apologize for incorrect naming in the previous few threads, Randy is not the enemy, nutrients creates by sandbeds are.

[kurfer]

Kurfer - A couple of additional thoughts. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the Chemistry forum regarding marinepure blocks in reef systems, specifically the suspicion that they seem to add aluminum to tank water in systems that run them. This suspicion is supported by Triton ICP tests, but it's unclear whether the aluminum in these tanks are or are not causing issues with corals, particularly soft corals.

Having said that, many of us with chemistry backgrounds won't run them in reef systems, because it's not worth taking the chance. In your particular case, and judging from your full-tank shots, I rather doubt that having them in the sump is substantially contributing to your tank's needs - you've a more than adequate amount of live rock and sand to provide surface area for the necessary bacteria. Based on that, I'd consider removing them.

I'm not sure what a "Pura" filter is; could you describe it to us?

Totally forgot to mention this, I did remove them from the sump.

I don't even have the larger blocks and from what I read the size I had are not meant for nitrate filtration.

They are gone! :)

[steventaylor702]

i find the tested values of NSW levels something to shoot for. (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php)

0.005ppm is what i would shoot for when keeping SPS.

0.03ppm is where i would want to keep a system for softies and LPS.

one can also use various organisms as indicators of nutrient levels. the more coralline the lower the available inorganic levels, the more algae, even in live sumps is a good indicator that inorganic nutrient levels are increasing.

G~
What's up with phosphate? by Richard Ross | MACNA…: http://youtu.be/ZRIKW-9d2xI

http://youtu.be/ZRIKW-9d2xI
I think everyone how is giving this kind of advice should listen to this video and understand not all of what you hear and read is necessarily true. Also everyone's tank is different.

[PhaneSoul]

that link doesn't work

[steventaylor702]

Works for me I'll try again

[steventaylor702]

http://youtu.be/ZRIKW-9d2xI

[steventaylor702]

I'm using taptalk so I don't know if it works the same

[PhaneSoul]

everything comes up, you tube page, comments, but the video has an error

[CStrickland]

Worked for me. Sometimes my phone likes forum links better that my laptop does?

[steventaylor702]

Look up Richard ross what's up with phosphate? Its on BRS Chanel

[steventaylor702]

I have read most of this form and have a few questions, have you looked at the small things like swing in pH from night to day (could be caused by and oxygen to carbondioxide in balance problem in your tank or in your house in general) and other thing lime stray voltage in the tank? Things like this if severe enough could cause delicate corals to die quickly.

[bdare]

Pretty good article here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/260742-biogeochemistry-meiobenthology-microbial-ecology-of-the-sandbed/

[bwp]

I'm late to the discussion, but has there been any discussion on problematic chemicals being introduced through the water supply (e.g. Chlorine / chloramine)?

[Reefin' Dude]

Pretty good article here:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/260742-biogeochemistry-meiobenthology-microbial-ecology-of-the-sandbed/

yep, good article. i like this part at the beginning.

"Bare Bottom is mostly about water chemistry. Think of it like this - fish, despite everything you know, everything you've been told, are really just water. They look like they’re a solid. You've eaten them as if they where a solid, but no. It was a lie, they’re just water. Therefore, a bare bottom or Berlin type system, allowing for superb water quality, makes for extremely healthy fish and corals. The downside is that it only allows for a limited biologic filter to develop in the set-up."

which boils down to. if you do not want to keep poo as a pet, than you can skip the entire article. :D

G~

[kenpau]

Nutrients need to be removed from the system in some manner. You can have technological aids help you with this or you can take a more manual, hands-on approach which doesn't cost 'thousands of dollars'.

The methodology used is up to the reef keeper, but to proclaim that 'vacuuming the sandbed is unnecessary and if you do something is wrong with your system' is a patently false statment since it doesn't apply to all reef keeping methodologies.

I completely agree with what you are saying there; however if you want to keep the most delicate species of coral then it's kind of a fact of the hobby that you will need to spend money on the appropriate equipment. I've never seen a really impressive sps tank that didn't have the equipment to support it. The OP already has expensive lighting and powerheads in the tank, it just may need to be added to.
On a side note, I haven't seen anything mentioned about a clean up crew, perhaps adding to this will aid any detritus problem that is present.

[machodik]

This post sound like what I am experiencing , just put a mark and subscribe to follow things there

[Reefin' Dude]

What's up with phosphate? by Richard Ross | MACNA…: http://youtu.be/ZRIKW-9d2xI

http://youtu.be/ZRIKW-9d2xI
I think everyone how is giving this kind of advice should listen to this video and understand not all of what you hear and read is necessarily true. Also everyone's tank is different.

OMG, he is so close, but just did not put two and two together. :(

i knew the video was in trouble when he said we can not test for organic phosphates, so we can forget about that. i was really hoping he would bring that back up at the end and piece it together, but no. :(

question: all of the great TOTM that you see. what is the common thing that they all say they do that everyone is amazed when they hear it?

hint: it is all about the organic phosphates.

please, if anybody hasn't already done this. do a search on RC on all posts by Bomber. i think a lot more of this will make sense if you do.

kurfer- are you still with us? i think it is about to really get interesting. :D

G~

[steventaylor702]

OMG, he is so close, but just did not put two and two together. :(

i knew the video was in trouble when he said we can not test for organic phosphates, so we can forget about that. i was really hoping he would bring that back up at the end and piece it together, but no. :(

question: all of the great TOTM that you see. what is the common thing that they all say they do that everyone is amazed when they hear it?

hint: it is all about the organic phosphates.

please, if anybody hasn't already done this. do a search on RC on all posts by Bomber. i think a lot more of this will make sense if you do.

kurfer- are you still with us? i think it is about to really get interesting. :D

G~
Can you expand on this a little bit I'm interested to hear what you're talking about

[CHSUB]

yep, good article. i like this part at the beginning.

"Bare Bottom is mostly about water chemistry. Think of it like this - fish, despite everything you know, everything you've been told, are really just water. They look like they’re a solid. You've eaten them as if they where a solid, but no. It was a lie, they’re just water. Therefore, a bare bottom or Berlin type system, allowing for superb water quality, makes for extremely healthy fish and corals. The downside is that it only allows for a limited biologic filter to develop in the set-up."

which boils down to. if you do not want to keep poo as a pet, than you can skip the entire article. :D

G~

We get it!!!! And it has become tiresome reading your posts about sand beds. However, most want a sand bed for aesthetic purposes, among other beneficial reasons. You analogy about flushing the toilet to get rid of the poop can be elaborated on to include the septic tank. We don’t drain it daily, but maybe every 10 years. Same with your sand bed, if it is maintained it’s part of the working system. You wouldn’t what your toilet to just empty in your back yard would you?

[PhaneSoul]

Can you expand on this a little bit I'm interested to hear what you're talking about

Well, do you think we can test for organic phosphates?

[PhaneSoul]

We get it!!!! And it has become tiresome reading your posts about sand beds. However, most want a sand bed for aesthetic purposes, among other beneficial reasons. You analogy about flushing the toilet to get rid of the poop can be elaborated on to include the septic tank. We don’t drain it daily, but maybe every 10 years. Same with your sand bed, if it is maintained it’s part of the working system. You wouldn’t what your toilet to just empty in your back yard would you?

I will have to disagree with you here. You get it. But others obviously need some more explaining or in the first half of this thread I wouldn't have been told the opposite.

[PhaneSoul]

OMG, he is so close, but just did not put two and two together. :(

i knew the video was in trouble when he said we can not test for organic phosphates, so we can forget about that. i was really hoping he would bring that back up at the end and piece it together, but no. :(

question: all of the great TOTM that you see. what is the common thing that they all say they do that everyone is amazed when they hear it?

hint: it is all about the organic phosphates.

please, if anybody hasn't already done this. do a search on RC on all posts by Bomber. i think a lot more of this will make sense if you do.

kurfer- are you still with us? i think it is about to really get interesting. :D

G~


I have been thru about 6 of the TOTM and im noticing a few things actually.

ALOT of feeding (I think this is what your after)
75% have some form of biopellets or similar
everything looks rather clean. from the sandbed in the DT to the sump. or in other words, detritus removal

[tkeracer619]

ALOT of feeding (I think this is what your after)

Like so? ;)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/N1cg8gkR_1w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

SPS grows in fresh instant ocean. If you want to get to the bottom of this you will need to remove the variables and go back to a simple setup. Remove the sand, do huge water changes (50%), and just keep is KISS. Remove or stop everything that you are doing that isn't skimming, feeding, sucking out waste, changing water, and two part dosing.

If you still can't keep it going something is wrong with your lighting, contaminants in the rock, or unseen pests.

If everything goes well when doing 50% weekly water changes and reducing them causes the issue to surface you have something in your rocks.

Before doing anything you need to check for chlorine making it through your RO filter.

[Lagoon monkey]

I can't keep SPS, when I finally get a frag to take off it dies all of a sudden overnight.

I check my alk daily, it stays between 7.4 and 7.8. My calc is always right around 410 and mag I keep around 1320. I use an Apex to monitor PH which stays stable at 8.1-7.9; my salinity probe keeps me in check as well as my temp probes holding at 79.

No matter what I feed, what I do...the following WILL NOT live in my tank:

Acans, will look good for 2 weeks then shrivel up and NEVER open.
Trachyphyllia & Wellsophyllia, usually shrivel up before 3 days and slowly die while in shrunken state, love to lose color.
Zoas, they just don't stay open and eventually wither away...even the cheap green ones
Acros, basically will never have PE and eventually die through a sudden random RTN event

What I can keep:

Hammer corals - had some die but most have grown nicely
Frogspawns - had a few die but mainly they flourish and grow
Birdnest - grows like crazy
Toadstool - grows
Torch corals - growing like crazy
green star polyps - open and close randomly, seems to be ok? Not really spreading though
xenia - colony seems to have stopped spreading but always open and flowing

Jury still out:

Duncans, some seem ok but often close up
RBTA, have one in my tank...was doing great and split into two, now both shriveled and moving all over

So basically my tank has nice frogspawns, torches and hammer corals but everything else is hit or miss and SPS other than birdsnest and monti caps always seem to die.

Equipment:

150G
2 AI Hydra 52
lifereef skimmer (large model)
2 MP40's
Apex controller with about every option you could imagine
DOS pump dosing BRS 2 part
Carbon/GFO reactor
Ecobak pellets in TLF reactor

Daily dose:

BRS 2 part 38ml of each daily
Korallen Amino acid per instructions daily (6 drops)
Korallen Pohl's Coral Vitalizer (6 drops daily)

1 cup HC GFO monthly
1.4 cup Carbon monthly

reef roids/oyster feast 1-2 times per week

Daily feeding of Neptune crossover via AFS

Nitrates stay around 5
Phosphates .03 and jump to .09 if I turn GFO off

15% weekly water changes with red sea coral pro. Also use a BRS 5 stage RODI.

Not sure what else to do, I spend at least 2 hours a day on my tank and my results are crap. :(

Over the course of 3 years I have probably lost around $1500 worth of corals.
Everything you can keep are begginner corals...intermediate sps are tough and sometimes crap out for no known reason. Your system seems very expensive and overkill for begginer coral. Also does not have enough light. I have 3 AI fixtures over a 90g and I could add more...I have all sps and some lps and softies. skip the dosing and hightech zeo garbage that stuff might work if u know exactly what your doing but I run my tanl off of calcium chloride road salt and baking soda...check out randys 2 part. No need for amino acids and all that fancy crap unless you have high demand corals which in mu opinion are only bound to die in time and not worthwhile. I need to start a reef store to capitalize off ppl that have too much $$$ for their own good....jeez

[power boat jim]

I need to start a reef store to capitalize off ppl that have too much $$$ for their own good....jeez

If you are posting here I would say you are one of those people.

[Lagoon monkey]

If you are posting here I would say you are one of those people.
Sorry pal your dead wrong. I sponsor my hobby by propogating corals and selling them thats how i paid for 1500$ of LEDs. My setup is all diy and ive done my research for years. My tank costs me approx 200$ / year and thats only salt calcium chloride and baking soda. 6 years in the hobby and going strong you learn alot. Your not worth my time to even go into more detail...goodbye

[power boat jim]

Posting an editorial comment on someones finanancial situation you know nothing about is uncalled for and provides no help at all. You certainly took exception to that sort of thing. Think that might be a clue as to how your comment will be recieved by others? .

[Lagoon monkey]

Posting an editorial comment on someones finanancial situation you know nothing about is uncalled for and provides no help at all. You certainly took exception to that sort of thing. Think that might be a clue as to how your comment will be recieved by others? .
You like to make assumtions about people you never met so I dont think ur one to talk here powerboatfred...your comment makes no sense go back to bed or have another one cause im assuming you think your initial response to my comment provided help did it? and futhering this conversation also helpin op? your a hypocrite dude i calls it as i sees it. Im done with this thread so stop wasting my time.

[kenpau]

kurfer- it sounds like your system has a carbon addiction. the faster you stop the addiction the greater the chance of algae bloom. the slower you can do it the better. get that LR doing its job instead of the water borne bacteria.

if you want to make reef keeping less expensive than just break keeping corals down to the absolute basics. bring it back to the known good husbandry practices. feed it what it needs, and remove its waste in a timely manner. it is that simple. we walk our dogs, empty the litter boxes, flush our toilets, change the paper in the cage, and rotate pastures for a reason.



skimmers and powerheads do not remove the large pieces of detritus. it takes a siphon to remove that. relying on only water based nutrient export methods misses the largest source of the problematic nutrients, the detritus. equate it to trying to remove poo from a bathroom by just running the fan and not actually flushing the toilet. you flush the toilet in order to remove the waste. siphon up the waste, you remove the poo. are we keeping corals as pets or poo?

G~

I understand what you are saying but if that is the case then why is siphoning not a common practice in the majority of reef aquariums? I'm not saying it isn't used but in all the tank journals I've read and awesome SPS tanks I've seen in my cities reefkeepers club I have never heard of siphoning as a major part of maintenance. Small water based nutrients are taken care of by powerheads and skimmers. Having a sufficient clean up crew should take care of the rest.

[kenpau]

Everything you can keep are begginner corals...intermediate sps are tough and sometimes crap out for no known reason. Your system seems very expensive and overkill for begginer coral. Also does not have enough light. I have 3 AI fixtures over a 90g and I could add more...I have all sps and some lps and softies. skip the dosing and hightech zeo garbage that stuff might work if u know exactly what your doing but I run my tanl off of calcium chloride road salt and baking soda...check out randys 2 part. No need for amino acids and all that fancy crap unless you have high demand corals which in mu opinion are only bound to die in time and not worthwhile. I need to start a reef store to capitalize off ppl that have too much $$$ for their own good....jeez

I'd definitely like to know your secret to growing sps, every thread I have read about AI sols has said that they just can't cut it when it comes to sps. Vegas are a little better but still not great. You're right that the OP could do with more light, maybe one more fixture but the truth is that if lighting alone was the issue then he should be getting growth directly below the fixtures, AI Hydra52s are more than enough to grown acropora, I can testify to that.
also branding methods that you don't use as 'garbage' is pretty narrow minded. We all have our different methods of reefkeeping, I don't agree with some methods and have said that in this thread, however I try to put an educated point if view across instead of just labelling someone else's methods as garbage. A Google image search of a Zeovit sps reef will bring up some of the most amazing tanks you have seen, it is a method that has been used over and over again with proven results. Of course if you have an educated answer as to why it doesn't work and the OP shouldn't use it then please feel free to post it.

[power boat jim]

I'd definitely like to know your secret to growing sps, every thread I have read about AI sols has said that they just can't cut it when it comes to sps. Vegas are a little better but still not great. You're right that the OP could do with more light, maybe one more fixture but the truth is that if lighting alone was the issue then he should be getting growth directly below the fixtures, AI Hydra52s are more than enough to grown acropora, I can testify to that.

.

I ran AI blues for a long time and had good success with them on sps also. Keep them up high and didnt go over 70%. Having 6 over a 180 helped. You need more leds the you might think. Adding full spectrom leds later on did help out too.

[wasatchwired]

I suffered the same symptoms after successfully keeping a 400 gallon tank full of SPS corals for 2 years. I didn't have an Apex back then. After downsizing, I started losing coral. I bought every module Neptune makes before I nailed it. My Refractometer was way out of wack. Salinity was 40ppt. 7 months of corals dead over a bad calibration.

[kenpau]

I ran AI blues for a long time and had good success with them on sps also. Keep them up high and didnt go over 70%. Having 6 over a 180 helped. You need more leds the you might think. Adding full spectrom leds later on did help out too.

That's interesting to hear, probably the first time I've heard that about the Sol blues! They are powerful lights but the spectrum on them isn't the best. Great to hear you had success with them though :)

[PhaneSoul]

I understand what you are saying but if that is the case then why is siphoning not a common practice in the majority of reef aquariums? I'm not saying it isn't used but in all the tank journals I've read and awesome SPS tanks I've seen in my cities reefkeepers club I have never heard of siphoning as a major part of maintenance. Small water based nutrients are taken care of by powerheads and skimmers. Having a sufficient clean up crew should take care of the rest.

It all goes back to the DSB fad and a 'no maintenance' system. People were tricked into sand being the en of all nutrient solutions when they were Te exact opposite but mask nutrients well for several years.
Clean up crews just eat and poop. They are not an exporter, but their poop is able to be hidden a lot easier then the algae growing on your rocks.

[CStrickland]

I understand what you are saying but if that is the case then why is siphoning not a common practice in the majority of reef aquariums? I'm not saying it isn't used but in all the tank journals I've read and awesome SPS tanks I've seen in my cities reefkeepers club I have never heard of siphoning as a major part of maintenance. Small water based nutrients are taken care of by powerheads and skimmers. Having a sufficient clean up crew should take care of the rest.

This is interesting to me as someone who is just starting a tank. From all the stuff I've been reading it does sound like there are two totally dif ways to go about it. Idk why those old tanks run so well, I think they've struck a balance that might be harder to find with all the extra nutrients that need processing. Not that it doesn't work sometimes, but it is harder and there's more that can go wrong.

It seems pretty well established that high nutrients make SPS hard to grow, and it makes sense that leaving detritus in the tank to decay will raise nutrients. If the old school tanks can create some ecosystem of benthos that allows them to do so then that's great cause vacing isn't super fun. But those tanks are few and far between, and they do seem to crash a lot. I think that keeping sand and not siphoning might be why people think SPS is so hard, people give up on their tanks, and people are so impressed when it does work. I'm assuming the old tanks didn't like, try siphoning and give up when it didn't work, rather they just do what has always been done. Then when it stops working after a few years they attribute that to user error, or stray voltage.
Getting out detritus by high flow and big skimming in a bb seems like a very easy way to grow SPS. Keeping a clean shallow sand bed seems like an easy way to have sand if you like it. The user controls much more of the critical variables like nutrients, and isn't relying on managing a waste treatment system in the tank on top of the coral that is the goal of the thing in the first place.

When you are first getting started you look at what works and try to think about why. It makes more sense to me to streamline things for max benefit / min effort with the ultimate goal in mind. If that's sps they seem to thrive pretty fast and easy in the bb tanks, and they seem to struggle in the others. As the new school ways are getting some years under their belt you can start to see that the method does have staying power. The old timers that found a way that works for them don't need to break what isn't fixed, but there sure are a lot of threads where it wasn't working and the reefer pulled their sand or started cleaning out the rocks and sand to great benefit. I think it might be a little more "fool resistant" (obvy not fool-proof, that would be worth patenting :) )

[PhaneSoul]

I have also read something, and I believe reef n' dude can clarify this for me, but with the symbiotic relationship between coral and the zooxanthae you want the coral to be in charge, not the zoox.

High inorganic nutrients, high lights, so so feeding -> zoox is in charge of the relationship

Low inorganic nutrients, low lights, high ORGANIC feeding -> coral is in charge

Not exactly sure if I got that completely right, but I feel it should be something that is more elaborated on since we are talking about how the TOTM have high feeding rates

[power boat jim]

That's interesting to hear, probably the first time I've heard that about the Sol blues! They are powerful lights but the spectrum on them isn't the best. Great to hear you had success with them though :)

That is probably an accurate statement. It seems most corals do ok with some part of the spectrum missing. However, I found results with LEDs do go in the right direction with a full spectrum lighting set up. What you use for that is really a personal choice there are many good options.

I have since moved to the radions G3s and they rival MH in growth and color in my tank. The only downside is again the cost of needeing so many to do the job. That is why for now, I run a hybrid system of 1 MH and 3 radiums.

[Nano sapiens]

I understand what you are saying but if that is the case then why is siphoning not a common practice in the majority of reef aquariums? I'm not saying it isn't used but in all the tank journals I've read and awesome SPS tanks I've seen in my cities reefkeepers club I have never heard of siphoning as a major part of maintenance. Small water based nutrients are taken care of by powerheads and skimmers. Having a sufficient clean up crew should take care of the rest.

In large tanks nutrients can be sequestered for many years before they show up as an obvious issue. How long depends on a multitude of factors such as depth and type of sand bed, amount of live rock, flow, what other nutrient export mechanisms exist, CUC present, chemical media(s) used, etc., etc.

If you were to radically downsize to a nano or pico tank, the time-line effects of nutrient accumulation are magnified many fold due to the (typically) much higher bioload to water volume ratio. At the extremes, the choices are to throw everything in the book at the system (WCs, GAC, GFO, skimmer, etc.) to try and manage NO3 and PO4 accumulation or simply remove detritus wherever it occurs on a regular basis.

To give you an idea how effect detritus removal can be in regards to phosphate control, I sent a sample off to Triton labs from my 6-1/2 year old 12g mixed reef (no mechanical or chemical filtration, 10% WC/week, a moderate density of corals plus two well-fed adult clownfish). Both P (phosphorus) and PO4 (inorganic phosphate) were below their recommended values of P=6.00ug/l and PO4=0.018 mg/l, respectively. Unfortunately, they don't test for NO3, but nitrate is undetectable using a Salifert test kit.

Detritus removal is simply a useful procedure that can be used to help promote long term stability in a reef system.

[Mishri]

I agree with lagoon monkey's principle, about not starting off with all the dosing pumps and extra things, but not the spirit of his post...

Spending money and getting all the most expensive gear isn't the way to succeed in this hobby. In fact, from OP's last post that I read he had an issue with one of his automatic dosers, causing the low alkalinity. That's why I don't like those things. Keep on top of it, this isn't a lazy persons hobby. check your water parameters, dose for what you need. Once you've achieved success with minimal automation you might consider it (I only like it for my lights)

I see so many people immediately buying reactors and dosing things "fixing" issues that they don't even have. Because that is what all of these successful people are doing... Well most of those people did it a different way before figuring out the needed different things for their particular tank. vodka dosing... so many people rush to it when there are other ways to fix that problem, and they aren't getting to the root of it. not saying it doesn't work or you shouldn't do it, but it seems like now it's the go to method for nitrate/phosphate reduction...

[Reefin' Dude]

Sorry, snowed in and no power.

It is all about who is in charge of the nutrients. The more you feed the more in control the coral is and not the Zoax. As long as the flow of Pi is higher in the coral than outside. All is good. We fall into the trap of starving the corals to keep the P from building up.

G~

[tkeracer619]

Im done with this thread so stop wasting my time.

That's what you said the last time. Run along already.

[kurfer]

You like to make assumtions about people you never met so I dont think ur one to talk here powerboatfred...your comment makes no sense go back to bed or have another one cause im assuming you think your initial response to my comment provided help did it? and futhering this conversation also helpin op? your a hypocrite dude i calls it as i sees it. Im done with this thread so stop wasting my time.

8 pages of constructive and extremely insightful posts and you come in on the tail end with bland advice and negative ****y comments. Please go away, go be mad somewhere else little man.

[spkennyva]

Sorry, snowed in and no power.

It is all about who is in charge of the nutrients. The more you feed the more in control the coral is and not the Zoax. As long as the flow of Pi is higher in the coral than outside. All is good. We fall into the trap of starving the corals to keep the P from building up.

G~


Yes, but how do you initiate that flow into the corals while still managing to keep things thriving? This, at least to this novice, is where the "magic" lies.

[PhaneSoul]

Yes, but how do you initiate that flow into the corals while still managing to keep things thriving? This, at least to this novice, is where the "magic" lies.

With detritus control. The longer something such as food as allowed to rot in tank the more it contributes to inorganic nutrients.
Remove the detritus asap and feed more (organic nutrients) and your increasing the organic nutrients (solid food = organic nutrients)

[kurfer]

Made a quick video, feel free to let me know if i'm doing it wrong. Here is a quick 5g video I made to show my process of cleaning display.

I'm here to learn so any critique is welcome. I checked my ego in when I made this thread. I also hope my mistakes and lack of understanding can help others who are having similar issues.

mEjSi407PEU

[mmark]

Let me just say sorry for all your coral loss but your tank looks great. One thing I do during water changes is take cheap power head ( that turkey baster isn't doing the job) and blow off the rocks corals and even run it over the sand. Also keep keep the power heads in your tank running. That will keep all the junk you just blew off floating around and you can siphon a lot of it out. Not sure if it helps what's going on with you .....good luck.

[PhaneSoul]

Let me just say sorry for all your coral loss but your tank looks great. One thing I do during water changes is take cheap power head ( that turkey baster isn't doing the job) and blow off the rocks corals and even run it over the sand. Also keep keep the power heads in your tank running. That will keep all the junk you just blew off floating around and you can siphon a lot of it out. Not sure if it helps what's going on with you .....good luck.

Yes to both powerhead parts. With a tank stocked like yours a PH would be a lot better, you can use the turkey baster up close on holes in the LR to get some of the passage ways and such

When I siphon my sand I get all the way to the bottom of the sand, I'll be vacuuming mine tonight so I'll get a video and post it

[spkennyva]

With detritus control. The longer something such as food as allowed to rot in tank the more it contributes to inorganic nutrients.
Remove the detritus asap and feed more (organic nutrients) and your increasing the organic nutrients (solid food = organic nutrients)


So, I guess that means big skimmer, great flow (both with DT and to the sump), GFO, carbon, filter socks, and targeted detritus removal, right? Does that also equate to no substrate in the DT?

[tkeracer619]

It all goes back to the DSB fad and a 'no maintenance' system.

There is actual no such thing. Most who advocates DSB setups don't say "no maintenance", IME it is the opposite. Of course there are a bunch of people who have never successfully kept one of those systems for various reasons spreading misinformation.

Detritus itself isn't really a big problem if you have strong enough export, it's when you have weak export and then getting everything out counts.

I cleaned the sump on the system I posted maybe 3 or 4 times over a 5 year period. I was never concerned with detritus after the first year or so when tanks are more vulnerable to algae blooms.

To the OP. I would consider my last post. I've resolved tanks with the same symptoms you describe.

Have you tested your RO water for anything other than tds? You need to check for chlorine making it through.

[CStrickland]

So, I guess that means big skimmer, great flow (both with DT and to the sump), GFO, carbon, filter socks, and targeted detritus removal, right? Does that also equate to no substrate in the DT?

It's not one way. It's the idea that you are removing the detritus from the water.
Some like a lot of flow around the dt, so that detritus cant settle there. Once it passes into the sump, it can slow down. Some folks like to have that first chamber where the water speed decreases be an empty space that they can vac easily when the detritus drops out of the water. Some use a sock but those can be more work, a lot of people have big skimmers. I think phane just has a sock, but he's not ULNS. You adapt for what you want to keep. GFO and carbon seem more common in DSB tanks to me.

[kurfer]

There is actual no such thing. Most who advocates DSB setups don't say "no maintenance", IME it is the opposite. Of course there are a bunch of people who have never successfully kept one of those systems for various reasons spreading misinformation.

Detritus itself isn't really a big problem if you have strong enough export, it's when you have weak export and then getting everything out counts.

I cleaned the sump on the system I posted maybe 3 or 4 times over a 5 year period. I was never concerned with detritus after the first year or so when tanks are more vulnerable to algae blooms.

To the OP. I would consider my last post. I've resolved tanks with the same symptoms you describe.

Have you tested your RO water for anything other than tds? You need to check for chlorine making it through.

About to walk into Home Depot as we speak to get a quick chlorine test kit. Hope they have something!

[CStrickland]

Do those tests show chlorammine too? Or are you sure your town uses chlorine?

[tkeracer619]

It shows in a total chlorine kit.

About to walk into Home Depot as we speak to get a quick chlorine test kit. Hope they have something!

This kit may work, not sure about it's resolution.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Pool-Time-6-Way-Test-Strips-50-Pack-08192PTM/100002743?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-203414630-_-100002743-_-N

[Bneufelder]

I'm having about the exact same problem as you. Same lights, same params. (My zoas are fine though) Had decent growth for SPS for 9 months, put my lights on acclimation mode to add new SPS and it has kicked off a non-stop STN/RTN event. I've lost 30 frags in the last 3 weeks and nearly all of my original SPS.

[tkeracer619]

Did you QT those 30 frags? I'm not sure why an acclimation mode would set off something like that.

[rickcar11]

Mix up a batch of salt water at 1.025 test levels of new saltwater mix. And keep your tank at that level. Test with different brands of test kits. I've noticed there all a little different. Or get a salt that mix to the levels of your tank... or maybe you have a pest that eats corals. Had the same thing happen to me a couple years ago and dipped everything once every week and bam, corals where ripping. Good luck. Best thing you can do sometimes is let nature run its course in your tank and see what's killing them . If they all dies at the same time it's prob tank conditions. If you see irritation on one or a couple , prob pest. **** sucks either way. I wish you the best.

[rickcar11]

Haha. Just noticed you guys are 30 pages deep in this thread. I only read the first page. :-)

[PhaneSoul]

So, I guess that means big skimmer, great flow (both with DT and to the sump), GFO, carbon, filter socks, and targeted detritus removal, right? Does that also equate to no substrate in the DT?
not necessarily. my system did great with the display being barebottom, about 35x flow, mostly softies & lps, only 2 sps, encrusting montipora and montipora spongodes. great growth all around. my sump was a settling chamber that I cleaned once a month with a 30% waterchange. I chose once a month because I wanted nutrients in there to support the lps and softies, im not too into sps so I was watching the lps to make them the happiest. I didn't have any algae whatsoever and only had to clean the glass once a week. I created an environment for the lps (euyphilla are my must have organisms) and lucky everything I have enjoyed that system. I just added a shallow sand bed to my system and am currently epoxying a bunch of rock together. ill change my maintenance schedule to siphon the sand once a week and siphon out the sump once every two weeks. I did have a filter sock on the system about 1/2 the time it was up.

There is actual no such thing. Most who advocates DSB setups don't say "no maintenance", IME it is the opposite. Of course there are a bunch of people who have never successfully kept one of those systems for various reasons spreading misinformation.

Detritus itself isn't really a big problem if you have strong enough export, it's when you have weak export and then getting everything out counts.


what are you exporting though, the detritus or the inorganic nutrients? because detritus is one of the major problems and besides alk/cal/mg, ect.. its really the only other thing you need to control. control the detritus and you control the level of nutrients in the system making it easier to create the environment for your must have organisms. with dsb's ive always heard just put in X amount of sand and don't touch it. maybe rough up the top 1/2 inch every once in a while but that's it. IMO that equates to no maintenance. also why I put the ' ' on the no maintenance, I should've explained that.

It's not one way. It's the idea that you are removing the detritus from the water.
Some like a lot of flow around the dt, so that detritus cant settle there. Once it passes into the sump, it can slow down. Some folks like to have that first chamber where the water speed decreases be an empty space that they can vac easily when the detritus drops out of the water. Some use a sock but those can be more work, a lot of people have big skimmers. I think phane just has a sock, but he's not ULNS. You adapt for what you want to keep. GFO and carbon seem more common in DSB tanks to me.

yep, my system was right in the middle, ideal for LPS. low enough to where I can support some sps but high enough so softies would be happy. I ran with and without the filter sock, couldn't decide if I wanted it or didn't want it

I'm having about the exact same problem as you. Same lights, same params. (My zoas are fine though) Had decent growth for SPS for 9 months, put my lights on acclimation mode to add new SPS and it has kicked off a non-stop STN/RTN event. I've lost 30 frags in the last 3 weeks and nearly all of my original SPS.

I also think it doesn't sound like the lights did it. sounds more like a pest got introduced..

[kenpau]

Spending money and getting all the most expensive gear isn't the way to succeed in this hobby. In fact, from OP's last post that I read he had an issue with one of his automatic dosers, causing the low alkalinity. That's why I don't like those things. Keep on top of it, this isn't a lazy persons hobby. check your water parameters, dose for what you need.

I half agree with what you are saying here. Just because you spend heaps of money it doesn't guarantee success, however buying the right equipment that is reliable can definitely help with keeping a successful reef. In your case of a dosing pump, I have one dosing Alk, Calcium and Magnesium, after a couple of weeks tuning in to find the right amount to dose for my system, my parameters are very stable. It isn't lazy to use a doser, we all know that stability is the key to a healthy reef and the ability to dose very small amounts of supplements throughout the course of a day is very helpful in reducing drops in vital parameters. Another example would be an auto top off, sure you can top up your water every night after work but having an automated system do this for you during the day keeps the salinity much more constant. Definitely not a lazy way out.

[dkeller_nc]

About to walk into Home Depot as we speak to get a quick chlorine test kit. Hope they have something!


Unfortunately, the kits usually sold for pool/Jacuzzi use don't help us reefers much if our municipal supply uses chloramine. Most municipalities in the US do use chloramine now, though not all. You can find out by googling your municipal water supplier and "water quality report".

You can figure out if your test strips are giving you a chloramine determination by simply testing your un-filtered tap water. Presuming your municipality is properly running things, you should get something like 2-4 ppm total chlorine. If your strips are measuring free chlorine (as most pool/Jacuzzi types do), you'll get close to zero from your tap water.

[Reefin' Dude]

Yes, but how do you initiate that flow into the corals while still managing to keep things thriving? This, at least to this novice, is where the "magic" lies.

i was afraid my comment was going to be taken that way. the flow of Pi needs to be out of the coral, not into the coral. when the Pi flow is into the coral we have problems. the corals need to be in charge. they take in food. their waste feeds the zoax, then any left over is released back into the water column. when we do not feed, the zoax becomes in charge and the Pi is going into the coral from the water column. the coral is not getting the nutrition it needs. go back to the video and the reason why readable phosphates and nitrates can be high is because they are lower than what is in the coral. the coral is still in charge of the nutrients. as long as this is the case it really does not matter how high the water column Pi and Ni are.

this is not "magic" to novices. this is "magic" for everyone. ;)

So, I guess that means big skimmer, great flow (both with DT and to the sump), GFO, carbon, filter socks, and targeted detritus removal, right? Does that also equate to no substrate in the DT?

no, it just means we need to treat the substrate as an organism. it needs to be fed, and it needs its waste removed. the same as anything else. it is easier to think this way, than it is to think of each and every organisms in the substrate individually. just think of the entire substrate as an organisms.

--------------------------------------------

it is all about following known good husbandry practices. feed the organisms, and remove its waste in a timely manner. we have not been doing this. we start out feeding just great, all is good, but at some point the P sink in the system fills up and is now producing more Pi, than what is going into the system, so the corals stop being in charge. we start to see the change and assume that it is a nutrient problem so we slow the feeding down. this just make the problem worse. the Pi test better, but the problems do not go away because feeding is not increased. if the waste is removed quick enough, than keeping the organic nutrients high enough to keep the corals in charge is made easier.

G~

[Reefin' Dude]

We get it!!!! And it has become tiresome reading your posts about sand beds. However, most want a sand bed for aesthetic purposes, among other beneficial reasons. You analogy about flushing the toilet to get rid of the poop can be elaborated on to include the septic tank. We don’t drain it daily, but maybe every 10 years. Same with your sand bed, if it is maintained it’s part of the working system. You wouldn’t what your toilet to just empty in your back yard would you?

still tiresome, or are you catching up yet?

G~

[kenpau]

There is a hell of a lot of information in this thread! Kurfer do you ever get the feeling you've opened the door into the abyss?!!
Hopefully you can wade through all the good, bad, indifferent and argumentative comments and come up with a simple plan to try and resolve your problem.
Keep us posted with any testing, maintenance and equipment changes you do, I'm very interested to see what works here.

Paul

[steventaylor702]

There is a hell of a lot of information in this thread! Kurfer do you ever get the feeling you've opened the door into the abyss?!!
Hopefully you can wade through all the good, bad, indifferent and argumentative comments and come up with a simple plan to try and resolve your problem.
Keep us posted with any testing, maintenance and equipment changes you do, I'm very interested to see what works here.

Paul
Lol anytime you ask for answers on forms it's like opening Pandora's box or opening the flood gates just got to fight through it and try and take the information that's good and pertains to your specific situation and use it. Good luck to the op I hope you can get things figured out it sucks watching your master piece falling apart but it is reversible just got to pin point the problem

[IHOP]

My opinion is keep it simple. I was having a lot of issues with my setup. I took a step back and have only been doing a water change every 3 weeks and my tank is thriving. Sometimes I think you just need to let things be and it figures itself out.

[CStrickland]

I wouldn't rely on pool test strips myself because I don't think they would be calibrated to show presence of Cl at the levels that would be detrimental to a tank, since they are manufactured to help people achieve levels that are quite high, with a pretty wide range of acceptability compared to a tank. Pools run 1-4 ppm, I think that test range is way above tank levels. But I guess if it reports 2ppm then you know what the problem is, like how those thermometers you stick on the glass can tell you if your water's way too cold, but not if its the right temp.

A couple posters mentioned the triton test a few pages ago, I think this might be a good situation for something like that. Their methods are not undisputed, but if op is thinking there is some hidden factor in the water the $50 to get a full panel might be a good option. If some weird element is out of whack, you've saved a lot of hassle testing individually, and if it's all clear, you've put to bed a lot of speculation.

Triton doesn't look for chlorine, but they test these:
The elements being tested for include Na, Ca, Mg, K, Sr, B, Br, S, Li, Be, Ba, Ti, V, Cr, Mn, Fe, Co, Ni, Cu, Zn, Al, Si, As, Sb, Sn, Cd, Se, Mo, Hg, P (PO4), Pb, I.
Sorry if I missed a post about the triton test, I think it just got mentioned a few times and then the threads focus shifted.

[beeker]

I have always been a bigger fan of Barebottom setups, i had sand in my 20gH the first tank i set up and was told just to get sand cleaning inverts and it would be fine, turns out not siphoning the sand and or replacing have to 1/3 of it every 6 months to a year makes the sand bed leach the nitrate back into the water coolum it took me my first 6 months of keeping a reef to figure out that it was the sand, my 20gH always had 50ppm of nitrate even after a 10g water change

[spkennyva]

the flow of Pi needs to be out of the coral, not into the coral. when the Pi flow is into the coral we have problems. the corals need to be in charge. they take in food. their waste feeds the zoax, then any left over is released back into the water column. when we do not feed, the zoax becomes in charge and the Pi is going into the coral from the water column. the coral is not getting the nutrition it needs.


Does this apply to purely SPS tanks too? I wasn't aware that everyone feeds their SPS or that SPS are active feeders.

[Cyberdude]

Word for word. Been in the same boat for two years. Params all good but rtn. Upgraded lights to hydra 52. Rtn. Removed gfo for a month. Started to see recovery. Turned down lights 15%. More recovery. Turned down skimming. Growth Explosion in just a few days. It like the entire tank woke up.

Two weeks ago
309502

Today. Skimmer lowered to dry skimming for one week.
309503

Been gaining several millimeters of encrusting a day!!! I'm pumped again!!!

[PhaneSoul]

Word for word. Been in the same boat for two years. Params all good but rtn. Upgraded lights to hydra 52. Rtn. Removed gfo for a month. Started to see recovery. Turned down lights 15%. More recovery. Turned down skimming. Growth Explosion in just a few days. It like the entire tank woke up.

Two weeks ago
309502

Today. Skimmer lowered to dry skimming for one week.
309503

Been gaining several millimeters of encrusting a day!!! I'm pumped again!!!

how do you think those changes affected your coral?

[Cyberdude]

More nutrients, more zoanth production with less light. Less light stress.

[Nano sapiens]

Does this apply to purely SPS tanks too? I wasn't aware that everyone feeds their SPS or that SPS are active feeders.

Many SPS are very active feeders, especially Acropora and the like. The polyps might be small, but they are typically many and can do a lot of work!

Our photosynthetic corals are 'mixotrophic', which simply means that they can acquire nutrients in various ways. How they 'feed' depends on the conditions. In a pristine reef setting with extremely low nutrient levels in the water, they rely mainly on sunlight and macro, as well as micro organisms (benthic and pelagic). Many SPS thive in these environments. In conditions where nutrients in the water column are more abundant, they can directly absorb these nutrients to a greater extent, which then augment the capture of any small organisms. In our tanks, which are typically richer in dissolved nutrients than a pristine oceanic reef, SPS don't 'need' to be fed food stuffs directly by the aquarist since they can process the nutrients from fish wastes as well as capture small creatures, especially eggs and larvae, from the various creatures in the tank. But, many SPS keepers do feed their SPS to ensure enhanced color and growth.

I'll let Reef'in Dude explain why the oligotrophic (nutrient poor water) condition is preferable for SPS :)