SPS tank LED or MH?

[cleverbs]

I am switching to SPS reef and am thinking that every really nice SPS reef tank I see is lit by MH. Am I going to have a problem using AI Hydra 26's For my SPS Tank? Will I not see the growth I need?

I have a 220g Tank

I know nothing about MH and the last thing I want is to spend 600$ a year on MH bulbs and t5ho bulbs...what do we do in this situation?

[Wazzel]

What are the dimension on your tank?

[Mishri]

replacement MH bulbs aren't that expensive, do them annually. (I've been running one over one of my tanks for over 3 years heheh.. but.. i'm just growing algae in it). $25-50 a bulb should be the cost.. so if you are running 4 bulbs, 200 tops? unless you are doing a T5 combo that some people like..


I'm not convinced LEDs are ready yet. I think sometime soon it will be the go to standard lighting, use these preset options for these types of corals and you are good to go. Right now there is too much playing with it for my liking. Some people enjoy turning those knobs, fine tuning things, I don't.

[Peter Eichler]

If you want the best possible color with good growth get yourself some nice reflectors and Radiums. Your current set-up will be fine, but you're going to have a a hard time replicating the success you can achieve with a top notch MH set-up. So, it really comes down to what your priorities are...

[Compliance]

If you can afford the added heat and cost - I would go with MH...

[joshky]

Personally I find all of the really nice SPS tanks lit by either T5s or T5 Hybrids these days. MH are nice but spread is the biggest concern, T5s and T5 hybrids are the best IMO.

[cleverbs]

Well just t5s wont work for me

My tank is a 220g 6ft tank 2ft deep using just t5s would be way to many and not what I am wanting to do.

I am worried about the heat issue because I dont want to run a chiller but I am not sure it would be an issue with my setup. I have a 270g system, 220g display, 30g display frag tank, sump. I would have to run 4 MH and dont know how much heat that will cause the system.

I dont have a canopy and wouldnt use one, I would hang them from the ceiling.

Can anyone point me to a quality reflector/ballest because I know nothing about MH like I said, I know that radium are the best bulbs but would I need to suplement with t5ho's if I used radium bulbs? Or what If I used both MH AND LED instead of T5HOs?

[cleverbs]

Maybe what I could do is put a MH over my Frag tank and see if I like it.

[Wazzel]

I think you would struggle with the 26's. You could do it with the 52's. AI would recommend 3, but I would suggest 4.

If you go Mh you will need 3, not 4. Lots of option on pendant reflectors. Don't get hung up on the claim that radiums are the best bulb. Personally I do not like them, it is just a preference thing, not a knock on quality.

[whiteshark]

Having used all of these lighting methods with SPS, though with admittedly limited time on all three, I've found MH + t5ho to be by far the best combo for pushing growth and maintaining color. LED worked fine (AI Vega) but growth was painfully slow compared to what I'm seeing with MH. Colors were great under LED though.

[Mishri]

If you are hanging them I don't see why you'd have trouble with the heat. I use the legs on my 150watts and don't have heat issues. I guess it depends though, I'd guess the 400watts run much hotter if that is what you are looking at. All of my aquariums are in my basement, doesn't really get above 72 down there... so that is another factor.

[75gal]

if youre worried about heat than dont get halides as they get hotter than t5s right? i think with a tank that big you will need a chiller with MH

[cleverbs]

Well I would need 4 because I would need 3 over my main tank and 1 over my Frag tank.

I am just unsure how I would use a MH/T5HO combo over my current system because I will not use a canopy on it.

[cleverbs]

The tank is in the basment that is kept at the highest at 71 any time of the year. It is probably colder then that most the time. The lights would be hung above it and not inclosed. I would run 250W MHs

[Wazzel]

Well I would need 4 because I would need 3 over my main tank and 1 over my Frag tank.

I am just unsure how I would use a MH/T5HO combo over my current system because I will not use a canopy on it.

There are some nice looking combo pendants out there, they are kind of pricy tho. Will look as clean as a T-5 or LED fixture.

[Peter Eichler]

Well just t5s wont work for me

My tank is a 220g 6ft tank 2ft deep using just t5s would be way to many and not what I am wanting to do.

I am worried about the heat issue because I dont want to run a chiller but I am not sure it would be an issue with my setup. I have a 270g system, 220g display, 30g display frag tank, sump. I would have to run 4 MH and dont know how much heat that will cause the system.

I dont have a canopy and wouldnt use one, I would hang them from the ceiling.

Can anyone point me to a quality reflector/ballest because I know nothing about MH like I said, I know that radium are the best bulbs but would I need to suplement with t5ho's if I used radium bulbs? Or what If I used both MH AND LED instead of T5HOs?

No need for supplements with Radiums. For ballast I would suggest one of the new selectable wattage electronic ballasts, such as the one from Lumatek. For reflectors Lumen Bright seems to be the best choice by far now that a couxple of the better ones from years past are no longer available.

[cleverbs]

No need for supplements with Radiums. For ballast I would suggest one of the new selectable wattage electronic ballasts, such as the one from Lumatek. For reflectors Lumen Bright seems to be the best choice by far now that a couxple of the better ones from years past are no longer available.

Why would I get a selectable wattage? wouldnt I only ever need 250w? why would I switch to 400W?

[Peter Eichler]

Why would I get a selectable wattage? wouldnt I only ever need 250w? why would I switch to 400W?

For very little extra money it's nice to have the option to bump up to 400 watters. It should also make them a little easier to sell if you ever get out of the hobby or want to go another direction with light. Personally, I would probably run 3x400w over a 220 gallon.

[cleverbs]

http://www.marinedepot.com/Hamilton_Cebu_Sun_Metal_Halide_%2b_T5_HO_Lighting_System_24_to_25_Inch_Single_Ended_Metal_Halide_Fix tures-Hamilton-HT21751-FILTFIMHTFSE-vi.html

this a good fixture? If I sould all my LED's I could cover the cost of this.

[ca1ore]

I am switching to SPS reef and am thinking that every really nice SPS reef tank I see is lit by MH.

Personally I find all of the really nice SPS tanks lit by either T5s or T5 Hybrids these days.

Other than being mutually exclusive :), neither of these statements are true, of course (added emphasis is mine). To a degree experienced reefers are going to tend to stick to what they know, so you are going to see a preponderance of the top tanks lit with 'legacy' technology. That doesn't mean you cannot be equally successful with LEDs, but their application on reef tanks is newer and I think many folks are less comfortable with the nuances and 'tunability'. When I returned to the hobby in 2013 after a four year hiatus, I went with LED primarily. Initially supplemented with MH, but now just LED. I have to say that SPS has done very well for me under these lights, better in fact than I ever had under MH (don't like T5, or any other flourescent, so never used them).

None of this is new thinking, of course, and can be found in an almost endless number of threads debating lighting here on RC

[cleverbs]

Other than being mutually exclusive :), neither of these statements are true, of course (added emphasis is mine). To a degree experienced reefers are going to tend to stick to what they know, so you are going to see a preponderance of the top tanks lit with 'legacy' technology. That doesn't mean you cannot be equally successful with LEDs, but their application on reef tanks is newer and I think many folks are less comfortable with the nuances and 'tunability'. When I returned to the hobby in 2013 after a four year hiatus, I went with LED primarily. Initially supplemented with MH, but now just LED. I have to say that SPS has done very well for me under these lights, better in fact than I ever had under MH (don't like T5, or any other flourescent, so never used them).

None of this is new thinking, of course, and can be found in an almost endless number of threads debating lighting here on RC

what leds do you use? also you are saying you are seeing better growth or better color?

[joshky]

Other than being mutually exclusive :), neither of these statements are true, of course (added emphasis is mine). To a degree experienced reefers are going to tend to stick to what they know, so you are going to see a preponderance of the top tanks lit with 'legacy' technology. That doesn't mean you cannot be equally successful with LEDs, but their application on reef tanks is newer and I think many folks are less comfortable with the nuances and 'tunability'. When I returned to the hobby in 2013 after a four year hiatus, I went with LED primarily. Initially supplemented with MH, but now just LED. I have to say that SPS has done very well for me under these lights, better in fact than I ever had under MH (don't like T5, or any other flourescent, so never used them).

None of this is new thinking, of course, and can be found in an almost endless number of threads debating lighting here on RC

Okay let me rephrase, A LOT of the SPS tanks that I find look the best use T5/T5 hybrids. I currently use LEDs and I don't think there's anything wrong with them, but you can't deny that LEDs and MH don't spread as well as T5/T5 hybrid. You would have to use a lot of fixtures to do the same thing, which is an option... for someone much wealthier than me.

[ca1ore]

Both, actually. Check out the link and all shall be answered ..... :)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2330721&page=6

[alton]

The tank is in the basment that is kept at the highest at 71 any time of the year. It is probably colder then that most the time. The lights would be hung above it and not inclosed. I would run 250W MHs

At 71 degrees using MH's you will still need heaters, with LED you will need very large heaters.

[ca1ore]

Okay let me rephrase, A LOT of the SPS tanks that I find look the best use T5/T5 hybrids.

Much better .... :lol2:

[b7fig]

http://www.marinedepot.com/Hamilton_Cebu_Sun_Metal_Halide_%2b_T5_HO_Lighting_System_24_to_25_Inch_Single_Ended_Metal_Halide_Fix tures-Hamilton-HT21751-FILTFIMHTFSE-vi.html

this a good fixture? If I sould all my LED's I could cover the cost of this.

That is the fixture I run. 72" long one and does an amazing job. My corals have shown much improved growth and color compared to my Radion LED's.

Some will say the reflectors aren't the best, but they work perfectly good enough on my 180 gal.

I had marine depot order directly from Hamilton so I could get the M80 ballast and 250k radium bulbs with the free shipping. Hamilton wanted to charge me $100 for shipping directly.

[Wazzel]

Okay let me rephrase, A LOT of the SPS tanks that I find look the best use T5/T5 hybrids. I currently use LEDs and I don't think there's anything wrong with them, but you can't deny that LEDs and MH don't spread as well as T5/T5 hybrid. You would have to use a lot of fixtures to do the same thing, which is an option... for someone much wealthier than me.

The nice tanks have all been running for years with good reef keeping techniques. If you look at all the TOTM's and the really nice tank they all have that in common. Lighting is just one part of the picture.

[cleverbs]

I looked at a 8x80w t5ho fixture by ATI and they dont seem to think they will support a a 220g SPS reef tank alone. This is why Im thinking MH/t5ho I love the color that ATI bulbs make I had a 4 bulb 24" fixture on my very first tank and ran ATI bulbs on it and even with LED I have never gotten that amazing color back.

[cleverbs]

That is the fixture I run. 72" long one and does an amazing job. My corals have shown much improved growth and color compared to my Radion LED's.

Some will say the reflectors aren't the best, but they work perfectly good enough on my 180 gal.

I had marine depot order directly from Hamilton so I could get the M80 ballast and 250k radium bulbs with the free shipping. Hamilton wanted to charge me $100 for shipping directly.

what is the m80 ballast? doesnt it come with one?

[Wazzel]

Much better .... :lol2:

Grammar police.....

;)

[ca1ore]

The nice tanks have all been running for years with good reef keeping techniques. If you look at all the TOTM's and the really nice tank they all have that in common. Lighting is just one part of the picture.

That is exactly right. LED. MH and T5 can all be made to work, and the empirical evidence is all over Reef Central.

[joshky]

The nice tanks have all been running for years with good reef keeping techniques. If you look at all the TOTM's and the really nice tank they all have that in common. Lighting is just one part of the picture.

I don't disagree. :beer:

[cleverbs]

Both, actually. Check out the link and all shall be answered ..... :)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2330721&page=6

Can you in short explained what you mean, I skimmed through it but dont want to read the whole thing.

[b7fig]

what is the m80 ballast? doesnt it come with one?

Yes, it comes with standard ballasts. But if you want to run Radium bulbs, which a lot of people consider some of the best out there, they require the M80 ballasts or an HQI ballasts/select a watt. Those don't come standard with the marine depot ones.

Here is the link directly from Hamiltons site which shows my setup:

http://www.hamiltontechnology.com/item/Radium-Cebu-Sun-Systems---Metal-Halide--4-T5-HO-Lighting-System-2214

[cleverbs]

Yes, it comes with standard ballasts. But if you want to run Radium bulbs, which a lot of people consider some of the best out there, they require the M80 ballasts or an HQI ballasts/select a watt. Those don't come standard with the marine depot ones.

Here is the link directly from Hamiltons site which shows my setup:

http://www.hamiltontechnology.com/item/Radium-Cebu-Sun-Systems---Metal-Halide--4-T5-HO-Lighting-System-2214

Ok I see thank you for that. I will bookmark that one.

[ca1ore]

Grammar police.....

;)

I know :o. What can I tell you, I write professionally and have two pre-teen boys whom I am attempting to tech real English.

[ca1ore]

Can you in short explained what you mean, I skimmed through it but dont want to read the whole thing.

Sorry, you'd asked what LEDs I use, and that is detailed on the page I linked. But, in short, I use both ReefBreeders and Kessils. Would I get better performance if I went back to MH? Maybe, maybe not. I have no plans to, however, as I have come to appreciate the lack of a chiller. FWIW, I happen to be of the opinion that lack of color with LED, particularly, is because folks drive them too hard. I've noticed much better color if I back them down a bit.

[Palting]

You have gotten a lot of excellent and unbiased advice here, cleverbs, certainly better than several of the other LED vs MH vs T5 threads.

Your tank and mine are simillar in 2 significant lighting needs: height and length. Your goal and what I've achieved are also quite simillar: SPS dominant/exclusive tank. So, I'll tell you what I have and give some opinions and you can decide what works for you.

1. Lights: 3 150W DE 10K MH, plus 8 HO actinic T5's, plus 6 LED night lights. I was hesitant at first about the 150 watts being too low, but I've found it actually supports SPS very well even all the way to the bottom rocks,and have had very little to no need to light acclimate any new SPS. The Hamilton unit you are looking at uses mogul MH bulbs, which some say puts out less PAR than simillar wattage DE bulbs, so it may actually pan out to be equal.
2. Heat: The tank room (basement) ambient temp of about 70, I have my lights under a canopy, I have 2 heat generating pumps in the sump. Despite that, the tank runs about 77-80 with no chillers. So, heat should NOT be an issue.
3. Bulb replacement cost: Yep, that is an issue. I replace the MH every 18 months and the T5's every 12 months. I groan everytime I click the "Checkout" button for online orders. That's why my replacement interval is a little longer,but it seems to work for me.

Not making any comments on the MH vs any other light issue, just saying that MH + HO T5's have worked well for me. Here's a photo of my tank at almost 5 years old. Notice the SPS growing from the bottom rocks and the 2 clams on the substrate.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2355&pictureid=62050

[cleverbs]

I am still struggling a lot with this decision. I really like the responses I have gotten from this site on the topic however I am just unsure of the route I want to take. It seems everyone I talk to in person about it is either die hard LED or MH and no one has an objective view. here are my issues I am trying to work out in my head.

LED vs MH

- Am I going to notice a huge difference in my electric bill if I run 4x 250W MH and 4x 80w T5HO's?

- Should I maybe just look at upgrading my lights from AI Hydra 26's to Hydra 52's?

- Will the cost of bulb replacement alone out weigh the cost of faster growth? $300-$400 Per Year

- Will I really SEE that much difference in growth?

[Wazzel]

I am still struggling a lot with this decision. I really like the responses I have gotten from this site on the topic however I am just unsure of the route I want to take. It seems everyone I talk to in person about it is either die hard LED or MH and no one has an objective view. here are my issues I am trying to work out in my head.

LED vs MH

- Am I going to notice a huge difference in my electric bill if I run 4x 250W MH and 4x 80w T5HO's?

- Should I maybe just look at upgrading my lights from AI Hydra 26's to Hydra 52's?

- Will the cost of bulb replacement alone out weigh the cost of faster growth?

- Will I really SEE that much difference in growth?

1. Depends on how you run your system. It is easy to figure, just take your electricity rate x watt of fixture x hours of running. Work it out and compare. I found MH/T-5 would have been a little more expensive to run, but not break the bank expensive. I have a 60 cube so it was just going to be 1 fixture.

2. That is an option. If you want to try SPS keep them high and centered on the 26's and you should do OK. Since you are just trying you should go with easier ones any way. You could always do one at a time as funds allow. If you are going to spend that kind of money check out the other systems, just to be sure.

3. No it will not, IMO. Payback and all that is complicate because the cost of the fixture can vary significantly. Mine ended up being a year or so, but I was looking at high end fixtures since I did not want a hood. IF you go with inexpensive MH fixtures vs LED the payback is not there in a 3-5 year window, which is what seems reasonable to me.

4. I do not think so, my last tank was MH/VHO and as best I can remember I am getting comparable growth. Some better and some worse. Living in the hot and humid south I have always fought the heat. Not having to deal with that it worth any small loss in growth rate.

[ca1ore]

You want objective .....

Figuring the cost difference between LED and MH is quite complicated. LED will mean no chiller, but will require incremental heater capacity. Cost to run is lower, but longevity of the fixture is unknown. MH means more heat, so maybe a chiller, but less heating capacity; but you have bulb replacement costs. What's the net ..... maybe a slight edge to LED but not all that much I don't think. I just hated running a chiller :)

In terms of performance and growth, I think all three types of lights will grow colorful SPS. MH and T5 are better known quantities, so probably more 'plug and play' and less room for error; they are also mature technology, less likely to require 'upgrades'. LEDs are still evolving, and offer so much customizability that there is a lot of room for error. They are also deceptive in terms of power and you can do your animals great damage if you are not careful. My prediction is that 5 years from now, LEDs will have become accepted as the superior form of lighting - but that's likely to be evolved fixtures from where we are today. BTW, and for what its worth, the absolute best, most intensely colored tank I have seen in person is at one of my LFS and is lit exclusively with LED, so it is possible.

[cleverbs]

1. Depends on how you run your system. It is easy to figure, just take your electricity rate x watt of fixture x hours of running. Work it out and compare. I found MH/T-5 would have been a little more expensive to run, but not break the bank expensive. I have a 60 cube so it was just going to be 1 fixture.

2. That is an option. If you want to try SPS keep them high and centered on the 26's and you should do OK. Since you are just trying you should go with easier ones any way. You could always do one at a time as funds allow. If you are going to spend that kind of money check out the other systems, just to be sure.

3. No it will not, IMO. Payback and all that is complicate because the cost of the fixture can vary significantly. Mine ended up being a year or so, but I was looking at high end fixtures since I did not want a hood. IF you go with inexpensive MH fixtures vs LED the payback is not there in a 3-5 year window, which is what seems reasonable to me.

4. I do not think so, my last tank was MH/VHO and as best I can remember I am getting comparable growth. Some better and some worse. Living in the hot and humid south I have always fought the heat. Not having to deal with that it worth any small loss in growth rate.


1 - I dont think cost will be that much more month to month but I will look into it.

2 - I am not "trying them" I am doing it haha, I have had SPS in the past and done well but never seen the growth I expected. I had a very full LPS tank for quite some time but I ended up lossing everything due to the lack of a dosing pump (I have one now for when I need it)

3 - I think I worded that question oddly. I am wondering is the cost of bulbs every year is worth the added growth that MH gives. In a way I am thinking that I could then frag and sell my frags and my local club love to buy quality frags. So If I sold 15 frags a year at 15$ i could pay for the bulbs. I did set up a frag tank after all.

4 - No comment

[cleverbs]

You want objective .....

Figuring the cost difference between LED and MH is quite complicated. LED will mean no chiller, but will require incremental heater capacity. Cost to run is lower, but longevity of the fixture is unknown. MH means more heat, so maybe a chiller, but less heating capacity; but you have bulb replacement costs. What's the net ..... maybe a slight edge to LED but not all that much I don't think. I just hated running a chiller :)

In terms of performance and growth, I think all three types of lights will grow colorful SPS. MH and T5 are better known quantities, so probably more 'plug and play' and less room for error; they are also mature technology, less likely to require 'upgrades'. LEDs are still evolving, and offer so much customizability that there is a lot of room for error. They are also deceptive in terms of power and you can do your animals great damage if you are not careful.


I can not see the need to run a chiller, I run 2x 400W heaters almost 24/7 right now to keep my tank at 78. The tank is open and the MH would be hung above the tank.

[b7fig]

My view is quite objective.

I've had reef tanks for 13 years. My first system was a MH system. I've had VHO, power compacts and T5's also on numerous size tanks. I actually used to own an aquatic store several years back.
Since my original system, I've owned numerous LED systems. (certified tech junkie)
I've owned Orphek, Current USA Trueluman, Ecoxotic, Razor, a few now out of business, and my last one was Radion Gen 3's in LEDs. (A few variations of a couple of them) I've spent no less then 25k+ in lighting systems alone on my tanks through the years.

I now run MH with T5 and have never been happier. LED's will grow SPS, but in my opinion, not the same. Too many variables and shading issues. Need twice as many lights to get same coverage.

I'm done spending money on lights that don't do what they need to do. MH works. Period.

[cleverbs]

My view is quite objective.

I've had reef tanks for 13 years. My first system was a MH system. I've had VHO, power compacts and T5's also on numerous size tanks. I actually used to own an aquatic store several years back.
Since my original system, I've owned numerous LED systems. (certified tech junkie)
I've owned Orphek, Current USA Trueluman, Ecoxotic, Razor, a few now out of business, and my last one was Radion Gen 3's in LEDs. (A few variations of a couple of them) I've spent no less then 25k+ in lighting systems alone on my tanks through the years.

I now run MH with T5 and have never been happier. LED's will grow SPS, but in my opinion, not the same. Too many variables and shading issues. Need twice as many lights to get same coverage.

I'm done spending money on lights that don't do what they need to do. MH works. Period.

I think I am going to go with MH/T5HO. I just need to figure out what to buy. I think that I should be able to sell my current lighting for about the price it will cost me to change. I just dont want to go through any of this again for quite some time.

I found this fixture that I am considering

http://www.ebay.com/itm/72-ULTRA-REEF-T5-3X250-HQI-4X80-T5-High-Output-MOONLIGHTS-Made-in-USA-/230830181210?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35be8d0b5a#ht_2925wt_1357

I had a catalina fixture when I had my High tech fresh water planted tank and I loved it! worked great and ran well for a few years till I took the tank down to start a reef. It was just a 4bulb t5ho fixture however. I am also looking at the hamilton fixture with 3x250w MH and 4x t5hos

[dkeller_nc]

Well, here's a cost breakdown:

Assuming a 12 hour cycle for the 8 T5HOs, and an 8 hour cycle for 4x250w MHs, then you're at 367 kw-hrs per month. In my neck of the woods, that's $36.7 per month to run the lights (compared to no lights).

For the Hydras, it's a "it depends". Dennis (d2mini) would tell you that to get the equivalent coverage with modular LED fixtures, you need one every foot to 16" of tank length, and I agree. So for your tank, and considering its shallow nature (24"), we'll assume that you'll run 5 hydra 52s at an average of 1/2 power for 10 hours. You'll therefore consume 104 kw-hrs per month, which in my area is $10.4.

So the net increase is $26.3 per month. Having said that, 4 250w MHs and 8 80w T5HOs over a 6-foot tank is a boatload of light, and in my opinion, isn't the equivalent of modular LEDs, because the light will be considerably more even over the entire tank.

You might contact Dennis about the fixture you were looking at - he recently replaced the Radions he had over his tank with Cebu Sun fixtures from Hamilton.

[cleverbs]

I am sorry theres some confusion about the lights

over the 220g there would be 3x 250w MH and 4x 80w T5hos

Then over the Frag tank I would like to place a single MH.

[dkeller_nc]

OK, not counting the frag tank, your electricity for the 4x80w T5HOs and the 3x250w MHs would be 305 kw-hrs/month, and at $0.10/ kw-hr, it'd cost $30.50 per month.

Sorry about the above calculation, there's an error in it. 8x80w T5HO + 4x250w MH would cost $48.60 per month, not $36.70.

[whiteshark]

Whether the increased growth rate you will very likely see with MH is worth the added monthly electrical expense is something you have to decide. I can say that from the Vega to a 10K XM 250w SE MH I'm seeing many times faster growth. Some corals have put on more growth in a week than they did in two months under LED.

I'm a firm believer that good husbandry will allow you to grow SPS under most any kind of light. I think what it comes down to is how fast do you want your corals to grow.

[Wazzel]

OK, not counting the frag tank, your electricity for the 4x80w T5HOs and the 3x250w MHs would be 305 kw-hrs/month, and at $0.10/ kw-hr, it'd cost $30.50 per month.

Sorry about the above calculation, there's an error in it. 8x80w T5HO + 4x250w MH would cost $48.60 per month, not $36.70.

So the delta is about $5/month for electric and about $5/month to annualize the bulb replacement per MH fixture? The T-5 would be about $5/month total? When I did my comparison last year I came up with between $10 and $15 per month more to operate a combo MH/T-5 fixture over a AI hydra52. Not really break the bank numbers.

[Kenmx10]

Heres something to think about. MH bulbs are cheaper to replace every 15 months or so , than the nice LED fixtures if your not satisfied with growth. It seems a lot of people , not everyone, are going back to MH for SPS growth. Im not sure if its because they can't get them properly tuned for their system. Or if the LEDs aren't quiet there yet. Last I heard they where having a difficult time producing white light with LEDS. ( Unless theres newer info that I haven't heard of yet.) If so Im sure someone will correct me on that.

(But still there are people that are having success with the LEDS)

Heres an idea. 3 250w Hamilton sun Cayman fixtures over your tank, and an affordable LED over your frag tank. Energy cost wouldn't be bad and you can see which you prefer.

[Wazzel]

You can be successful with LED. They are not the game changer they were billed to be and more difficult to dial in that expected. What ever light system you decide to use get to know it, pros and cons and learn the best way to operate in those limitations. I am a LED user with no plans on going back to MH. One year in and I have learned a bit. If I set up another tank it will be LED again.

[dkeller_nc]

So the delta is about $5/month for electric and about $5/month to annualize the bulb replacement per MH fixture? The T-5 would be about $5/month total? When I did my comparison last year I came up with between $10 and $15 per month more to operate a combo MH/T-5 fixture over a AI hydra52. Not really break the bank numbers.

Actually, the delta was about $20 per month based on 5 AI Hydra 52s vs. 3 250w MH & 4 80w T5HOs, and at $0.10/kwh. Obviously, the cost per kilo-watt-hour factors into this heavily - the cost differential will be a lot higher in Southern California, for example.

But I agree - $20 differential in power compared to the other monthly costs of running a 220g reef tank isn't a game-changer. However, the OP might consider the 5*$600 = $3000 initial investment in the Hydra 52s vs. the approximately $1000 for the Hamilton 72" Cebu Sun system to be significant.

I should note, btw, that I'm far from an LED-hater. I have a brand-new Radion fixture over my 50g cube, and old-school fluorescents over my other tanks. What goes over my planned 6' monster tank is yet to be determined.

[cleverbs]

Yeah I just cant spend as much money as I need to right now to make LED work on my tank. I think I am going to keep my Hydra over my 30g Cube Frag tank because it should be plenty of power for that.

I am trying to find the right fixture for me right now, Theres not a lot of 72" options out there. trying to decide between a hamilton and a catalina fixture I found.

[JB NY]

I think that MH/T5 give you lots of options that will work. With LED I have seen people (myself included) spend decent money on a setup that ultimately doesn't work as good as they thought it would for SPS. With MH or T5 you can just put in a different bulb and you are on your way, and all you have to do is turn it on and not worry about it. LED is more complicated and if you are unhappy you have to get a whole new unit.

[Wazzel]

Actually, the delta was about $20 per month based on 5 AI Hydra 52s vs. 3 250w MH & 4 80w T5HOs, and at $0.10/kwh. Obviously, the cost per kilo-watt-hour factors into this heavily - the cost differential will be a lot higher in Southern California, for example.

But I agree - $20 differential in power compared to the other monthly costs of running a 220g reef tank isn't a game-changer. However, the OP might consider the 5*$600 = $3000 initial investment in the Hydra 52s vs. the approximately $1000 for the Hamilton 72" Cebu Sun system to be significant.

I should note, btw, that I'm far from an LED-hater. I have a brand-new Radion fixture over my 50g cube, and old-school fluorescents over my other tanks. What goes over my planned 6' monster tank is yet to be determined.

That was just power tho, right? I was looking at total cost by including the bulb on a monthly basis. As far as the coverage thing, it is an issue, but from what I have seen on my tank the 2x is over stating the problem, unless you have tall and/or steep aquascape, then it might take 2x's. But anyway, if $20 or so buck a month is going to put you in a bind you probably should not be putting up any saltwater tank.

Even tho I am an LED user, I do not consider myself a fan boy. They are not the best thing since sliced bread and have some issues specific to them that you need to learn to work with. If I ever get the want to I need to do some scape work based on some things I have learned in the last 10 months. Tall steep rock work makes the coverage issue much worse.

[dkeller_nc]

That was just power tho, right? I was looking at total cost by including the bulb on a monthly basis. As far as the coverage thing, it is an issue, but from what I have seen on my tank the 2x is over stating the problem, unless you have tall and/or steep aquascape, then it might take 2x's.

Well, if the MH and T5HO bulb cost is included, I'm thinking that the differential is a bit higher:

4 x 80w T5HO's replaced every 12 months = $24 x 4 = $96 = $8/mo.

2 x 250w MHs replaced every 16 months = $60 x 3 = $180 = $11.25/mo.

So the differential would be $20/mo in power, and $19/mo in bulb replacements, so $40 extra a month. Still not a big deal with respect to a 220g tank, in my opinion, and the differential in capital cost is about $2k for the LEDs.

With respect to the coverage issue, what I've chosen to do is run fixtures at about 2/3rds of the coverage area that the manufacturers recommend, and run the fixtures at lower power. More fixtures definitely cut down on the "shadow" problem. Eventually, maybe one of the major manufacturers will release a long fixture with many individual high-density clusters of LEDs. The new kessil fixture would be similar to what I envision, except with 4 emitters instead of 2. Hey, we can all wish, can't we? :D

[TAZ_67]

I really like these fixtures.
http://www.giesemann.de/431,2,HQI%20&%20T5,.html

I would have one over my tank right now if they made a 36" model. I am running straight t5's on it now. When I upgrade I will more than likely go with a Hamilton. The thing with Halide and T5's is that they are proven set and forget. Leaves another thing to rule out.

[cleverbs]

yeah love the Giesemann models however the price is insane, cheapest model for me is 1500$ and then you have to buy bulbs and ballas for them because they are not included. at that point i would buy 5x hydra 52s haha

[Wazzel]

Well, if the MH and T5HO bulb cost is included, I'm thinking that the differential is a bit higher:

4 x 80w T5HO's replaced every 12 months = $24 x 4 = $96 = $8/mo.

2 x 250w MHs replaced every 16 months = $60 x 3 = $180 = $11.25/mo.

So the differential would be $20/mo in power, and $19/mo in bulb replacements, so $40 extra a month. Still not a big deal with respect to a 220g tank, in my opinion, and the differential in capital cost is about $2k for the LEDs.

With respect to the coverage issue, what I've chosen to do is run fixtures at about 2/3rds of the coverage area that the manufacturers recommend, and run the fixtures at lower power. More fixtures definitely cut down on the "shadow" problem. Eventually, maybe one of the major manufacturers will release a long fixture with many individual high-density clusters of LEDs. The new kessil fixture would be similar to what I envision, except with 4 emitters instead of 2. Hey, we can all wish, can't we? :D

Something like that.

On the AI fixture I approximate coverage to be 24" in the axis of the pucks and 18" in the other axis. Slightly bigger fixtures with more smaller clusters would go a long way on helping the shading. If AI would make the fixture square using the current long dimension, one puck in each corner and one centered or a 9 half sized pucks in a 3x3 cluster layout that would help a lot.

[dkeller_nc]

On the AI fixture I approximate coverage to be 24" in the axis of the pucks and 18" in the other axis. Slightly bigger fixtures with more smaller clusters would go a long way on helping the shading. If AI would make the fixture square using the current long dimension, one puck in each corner and one centered or a 9 half sized pucks in a 3x3 cluster layout that would help a lot.

Yes, it certainly would. Perhaps that's the idea behind the new AI Prime fixture - single puck, but cheap enough to where you could mount quite a few fixtures over a tank. The ability to aim them in something other than horizontal seems to be a plus, as well.

[BigCountry74]

Mh

:d

[salttess]

I have 3 250 wtt mh bulbs and 2 110vho's over my 240 tank and they generate lots of heat! Each bulb cost me 75 to 80 dollars, so I cringe when replacing. They hang from the ceiling. I have to run 2 mid size fans to keep the tank from getting to 80 degrees or more. I just recently went to leds...so hoping the electric bill will go down and corals will be good.

[b7fig]

80 degrees is not a problem on a reef tank. Its 80 to 84 in nature on the reef. Mine hits 84 at times in the summer and never been a problem.

[codyreed29]

If your really worried about bulb cost. Leds also will cut your electricity in half.

Meaning cheaper in the long run and you have the start up cost.

Also you could 2x 250 watt mh and 2 radions. Get good growth and awesome colors

[codyreed29]

I would.personally.run 3 led fixtures xr15s radion new version with the tir lenses with 2 mh in between. Up a foot or little more above the tank.

Phoenix 14 k 250.de bulb was 50 plus tax 120 a year. And they are good but if you only have two why not a aqualine or oshio giessman. 2 good bulbs like these will kick ***. 2 badass ballast and 400 watt aqualines would easily keep sps.in your whole tank.

[kenpau]

I am running 3 AI Hydra52 units over a 150 sps dominated reef and am experiencing awesome growth of acropora. I think you're always going to get the MH fans and the LED fans and both obviously will do the job providing they're good enough units. What I will say is that LED technology is improving all the time, the Hydra 52s are powerful units, I run mine at 85% on a 14k setting. Add to the fact that you can have more natural lighting with sunrise/sunset and cloud cover programs and I think the high end LED units are they way to go now. That's not to say that MH and T5s are no good, because they are very good. For me, first priority is coral health, high end LEDs can handle that (AI Hydra52s and Radions G3 etc), second priority is aesthetics, LEDs provides the nice sunrise/sunsets, customised programs, cloud cover....all nice to have.
personally I don't thing the 26s will do the job for you (unless you run about 8 of them), 4 52s shouId work well though.

[Wazzel]

If your really worried about bulb cost. Leds also will cut your electricity in half.

Meaning cheaper in the long run and you have the start up cost.

Also you could 2x 250 watt mh and 2 radions. Get good growth and awesome colors

Payback takes longer than people realize. 3-5 years is a reasonable approximation.

[hart24601]

I like LED/T5 combos and for the LEDs to totally cover the surface, not just a couple of clusters. I really wouldn't consider running MH these days, but that's a personal choice. As for growth, just feed more with any light if you are not happy with the growth, it makes a huge difference if done with appropriate food.

[GroktheCube]

I've used T5, LED, T5+LED, and T5+MH.

T5+MH works better over my tank, and dramatically so. I had colors that didn't even exist on my corals before show up a week or two after the swap. For me, it wasn't just a matter of brighter colors.

My electrical bill is also a bit lower due to reduced heater uptime.

I might give LEDs another look in a few years when we start seeing a more complete spectrum. Reflectors vs lenses would make a big difference too. You need A LOT of diodes with lenses at a few different angles to approximate the coverage T5s or MHs offer.