Completely overwhelmed.

[GANGGREEN]

OK, first post and a quick introduction. I've had a few freshwater tanks over the years, that I liked well enough but I've never had a saltwater or reef tank, though I've always liked the idea. I'm not new to having hobbies which require a time or money investment or a bit of knowledge either, having raised beef, made maple syrup, carved duck decoys, raised an orchard with 100 dwarf fruit trees, carved wooden decorative fish and even having made a few working flintlock rifles.

I recently did some snorkeling in the Dominican Republic and that got me excited about the idea of a reef tank again, then I stumbled into a for sale ad on a local internet board. It was for a 250 gallon tank that was already set up with fish, corals, etc. and from what I can tell, the price is really, really right. I did contact the seller and briefly discussed it with him but I promised my wife that I'd do some research and see exactly what I was getting into and what sort of maintenance would be involved.

That brings me to this board and holy cow, I'm completely overwhelmed. I've spent a bit of time on this board and another nano-reef tank board, not to mention shopping online at a bunch of the sponsor sites just to educate myself. Depending on who I believe, the hobby takes a bit of time or it takes a lot of time each and every day, not to mention the money involved and the labor and commitment. I have to admit to being a tiny bit intimidated at this point and not as quick to pull the trigger on the good deal that I've found. I figure that the worst case scenario is that I've learned a bit and I've seen some folks' really, really beautiful set ups on this forum.

Anyway, carry on, I just wanted to point out that you folks are all a bit nuts. :spin2:

[b7fig]

A 250 gallon reef tank would be quite an endeavor to start of with. A basic saltwater fish tank is not that much more involved then a freshwater, throw in the corals and you have a whole new ballgame.

But in general, yes, we are nuts!

[GANGGREEN]

A 250 gallon reef tank would be quite an endeavor to start of with. A basic saltwater fish tank is not that much more involved then a freshwater, throw in the corals and you have a whole new ballgame.

But in general, yes, we are nuts!

Well, honestly, I would imagine that moving this big tank and all of the occupants would be VERY difficult so I'm really just using it as an opportunity to learn and decide what I really do want and need if I jump in with both feet. I'm not opposed to going much smaller and really taking my time to get the tank and its occupants acclimated to a new environment. The price on this really nice 250 gallon set up is very attractive though and I'm pretty sure that the seller is fairly motivated.

From the little research I've already done, I'm not sure that a nano tank is really wise for the beginner either and honestly, if I'm going to spend the time and invest the money, I'd really like to have a nice-looking and thriving reef environment with a fair number of species so I'm thinking 35-65 gallons if the big tank doesn't work out.

[RocketEngineer]

READ ALL OF THESE (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074). And I do mean ALL of them. The trick with this hobby is to make haste slowly.

I admit that my time commitment to my reef tank is relatively small. Stability is key to long term success and to that end I've learned how to use biology instead of relying on technology. I do use some automation but I try to use it to ensure stability (topping off the tank with freshwater to keep salinity the same, lighting, heater control). I use simple methods that can be set up and allowed to run for long periods unattended. My bioload is very light which means things take a long while to progress giving me plenty of time to correct them.

Remember, even the best of us can have problems. Keep doing your research. There is a lot to learn in this hobby.

[kmbyrnes]

If you are unsure, I would skip the tank. There will always be another deal in the future.
Now is the time decide where you want to start and what direction you want to take. Then read, ask questions, and maybe join a local reef club.
A 250 is pretty big and will require a lot of time in the beginning while you learn how to care for a tank - but I bet the payoff would be worth it.
On the other hand, part of the satisfaction I get from my tanks is knowing I built them from nothing and they end is result is due to my efforts ( good and bad ).
Take your time.
'Nothing good happens fast in this hobby'

[GANGGREEN]

READ ALL OF THESE (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074). And I do mean ALL of them. The trick with this hobby is to make haste slowly.

I admit that my time commitment to my reef tank is relatively small. Stability is key to long term success and to that end I've learned how to use biology instead of relying on technology. I do use some automation but I try to use it to ensure stability (topping off the tank with freshwater to keep salinity the same, lighting, heater control). I use simple methods that can be set up and allowed to run for long periods unattended. My bioload is very light which means things take a long while to progress giving me plenty of time to correct them.

Remember, even the best of us can have problems. Keep doing your research. There is a lot to learn in this hobby.

I've already starting on the reading and will likely order at least a few books from Amazon today (I like looking at the pretty pictures, hee hee). I think my wife would be happy if I cooled my jets and just started a tank slowly but I can see investing a whole lot more money in the long run by starting from scratch, rather than buying someone's whole set up for pennies on the dollar. That said, I don't want to save a few bucks but end up frustrated or end up killing a bunch of sea creatures because I don't know what I'm doing. Thanks for the response and the advice.

[GANGGREEN]

You know, the other thing that's a bit discouraging is that I live in a very rural area and to my knowledge, the nearest decent saltwater shop is probably 2 hours away so I can't just go in once a week and see things and absorb knowledge. I wish like heck that I had a really nice shop nearby so I could see some things, look at products and maybe learn a few things or get steered in the right direction by the proprietor. I think I will do my research, try to find the best shop within a few hours and plan a trip just to look around the shop but obviously, it will cost me an entire day, not to mention gas money and eating lunch on the road. Still, money well spent I'm sure if it's a decent shop.

[GT350pwns]

Honestly, after a few weeks on these boards and some studying , you'll be more knowledgeable than about 3/4 of the folks in those shops. Albeit, it is nice to be able to go and see with your own eyes! And there are plenty of online resources for livestock, rock, sand, etc!

Like stated above, nothing good happens fast and stability is the key to success.

[Mcgeezer]

A 250g reef would be way too much to take on for a newbie. The best advice anyone can give you is the following:

1. Read a good book about saltwater
2. Read it again
3. Learn the virtue of patience and enforce it with a vengeance
4. Ask a ton of questions
5. If ever in doubt, repeat steps 1-4

If you do decide to start up, do something like a 55 gallon. I'd start out only with a fish only tank with live rock....and then gravitate into reefs once you have enough knowledge.

Being in a rural area, you're going to need to buy an RO/DI unit for your water.

[toothybugs]

A 250g reef would be way too much to take on for a newbie. The best advice anyone can give you is the following:

1. Read a good book about saltwater
2. Read it again
3. Learn the virtue of patience and enforce it with a vengeance
4. Ask a ton of questions
5. If ever in doubt, repeat steps 1-4

If you do decide to start up, do something like a 55 gallon. I'd start out only with a fish only tank with live rock....and then gravitate into reefs once you have enough knowledge.

I'll fully get behind 3, 4, and 5, but books can get outdated. And I will also support getting a smaller tank as practice, maybe one that you could use as a sump or refugium for the bigger system. A 55 is a nice volume but the shape is awful - I would suggest a 40B or 75 FOWLR to get going instead, depending on your budget (*homework for what you need*). Then when that's going well, decide if you want to stay with what you have or if you want to add upscale lighting and go with corals.

And then you'll realize how awesomely expensive (or expensively awesome) that 250 is.

[julie180]

Welcome to a very rewarding and some times frustrating hobby. I agree with above on passing on an already set up tank. I don't see a problem going with a big tank to start, but trying to move and reestablish an existing tank adds exponentially to the challenge and potential for failure.
Something to remember about brick and mortar stores is they have to make money. They carry a limited number of the millions of products available so they are going to be bias towards what they can sell you at the time.
Not that they might not know what they are talking about, just make sure to double check before jumping into anything based on what they are saying. This forum has been invaluable to me in learning to be successful in this hobby. I have made many mistakes, tons others I have been able to avoid because of research here.

Best of luck

[toothybugs]

Re: rural. LFSs are nice, but more often you get better livestock from the sponsor sites - Diver's Den, Live Aquaria, Saltwaterfish to name just a very few. Plus the warranties will help you out in your particular situation.

[Goldndoodle]

I can see if you were new to the Hobby, how going from 0 to 100MPH w/ a full established tank would be overwhelming. Not sure I would cannonball into this hobby, I think I would wade in instead.

Maybe start at square one, and just move forward slowly - instead of having a fully setup system that you then need to figure out how to maintain water chemistry, keep animals healthy, figure out the individual needs of different corals, when filters need replaced, how filtration works, etc., etc. etc. ...

I started with a 28G nanoCube 15 months ago, decided in October I wanted a bigger setup. I searched for new and used tanks for about 4 weeks until I found a used 120G tank, stand and canopy on craigslist for an incredible price. I already had my RODI system in place for my nanoCube, so then I moved on to -

cleaning the new tank
buying all the equipment for the sump
building the sump
plumbing the sump
set up larger saltwater mixing station
figure out water change drainage from 1st floor to basement
figure out saltwater delivery system from basement to tank on 1st floor
buying lighting
buying a reef controller
install lighting
install reef controller
wet testing everything (for 4 days)
research quarantining protocols
setting up quarantine and tank transfer tanks
draining the new tank
cleaning it (again)
moving it into place
filling with RODI, salt & rock
cycling
add CUC
move corals out of nanoCube
move fish from nanoCube to QT

The next step is to get the nanoCube fish out of QT and into the new tank, then start buying 1 fish at a time, put them through quarantine for a month, add them to the tank, then go get the next fish ...

I thought I knew a lot about this hobby when I had my nanoCube ... I've learned a lot more since October.

[U Ben Fishin]

Mcgeezer
That was very good advice. I'm glad you said it because I'm sure a lot of readers were thinking it!
Ben

[GANGGREEN]

A 250g reef would be way too much to take on for a newbie. The best advice anyone can give you is the following:

1. Read a good book about saltwater
2. Read it again
3. Learn the virtue of patience and enforce it with a vengeance
4. Ask a ton of questions
5. If ever in doubt, repeat steps 1-4

If you do decide to start up, do something like a 55 gallon. I'd start out only with a fish only tank with live rock....and then gravitate into reefs once you have enough knowledge.

Being in a rural area, you're going to need to buy an RO/DI unit for your water.

Thanks. I was aware that I'd be needing a RO/DI for sure and a bunch of other equipment in addition to the tank itself.

[GANGGREEN]

Thanks for all of the input folks, it's why I posted and why I asked. Another consideration for me (brought up by GoldnDoodle) is the fact that I'd likely have my extra water storage and RO/DI in my basement and my tank upstairs. Ideally, I'd love to have one enormous room for everything related to the tank, including all the plumbing but for now it's not going to happen that way and I'll have to figure out water changes and what not with this consideration in mind. When I retire, I'll have my in-house office available and would consider doing plumbing and stuff to make the office my new aquarium room (in which case I could probably set up multiple tanks including a big one) but for now I think a more reasonably sized tank set up for a beginner like me makes more sense.

I also appreciate the idea to start with a fish only tank and move on to corals as I learn about tank management, biology, chemistry and what-not but man, I really love the look of the reef tanks with living coral. I'm not too stubborn and I am willing to listen to advice but I'm actually more inclined to go slowly, do my research and then to start with coral and add fish only as I insure that the water chemistry and biological factors are right.

We'll see, I haven't even completely decided to do this yet but as I said in my first post, it's been something that I've been wanting to do for several decades.

[gone fishin]

I started with just a basic 29g tank and it has evolved over the years to the current 180g. The lessons learned from that 29g has carried over to every tank since then. IMO the problems and issues are the same. With a larger tank they just become more expensive to solve due to the higher volume of water.

I would suggest setting up your own smaller tank and learn those lessons. Then in the future you will be able to see the warning signs and head off issues. I wish you the best of luck I whatever choice you make.

[Sk8r]

A tank can be automated once it is in good shape.
Automations I have: my lights, my feeding, my topping off with fresh water, my temperature---and to a certain extent my chemistry: let me explain that these are all without a controller, and without very spendy equipment.
1. lights. a hardware store timer.
2. temperature: knowing my tank and skill in setting the heater dial---I watch it on change of seasons to make minor adjustment, but otherwise, it's set at a point where it can hold pretty steady day to night.
3. salinity: I set that and it stays because I have an inexpensive auto-topoff system, with a reservoir of fresh water. The water falls in a tube inserted in the water: it kicks on the pump to shoot fresh water in. The water rises---it cuts off the pump. SImple physics and a clever switch.
4. tank chemistry: if you set your salinity at 1.025 and your magnesium at 1300, then bring your alkalinity to 8.3 and your calcium to 420, AND add Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime AKA kalk to your topoff reservoir, the chemistry will stay rock solid at that reading until the magnesium runs low. This can take several months. As long as coralline algae spots are appearing on my glass, it's a pretty good indicator the mg is ok, but I do test it.
5. testing once a week takes less than 10 minutes once you get practiced, and a logbook reminds you how things were, and what direction they're trending.

I have safely left my tank in the hands of a novice tanksitter for a month with only one instruction: if the fresh water runs low, pour in water from this barrel, and phone me if anything really weird happens.

[Mcgeezer]

As stated, automation is key. Not only does it make your life incredibly simple, but it also ensures consistentcy in terms of salinity, trace elements, lighting schedules, etc

An auto top off is probably the best piece of equipment you can purchase besides a phosphate reactor. It saves you from having to constantly top off evaporated water by lifting heavy jugs.

If you get into reefs, kalkwasser in your auto top off will become your best friend. Make sure you understand how it works because if you dont do it right, you can nuke your tank.

My tank now is pretty much set it and forget it other than refilling the ATO/kalkwasser weekly and doing weekly water changes. And of course feeding fish

[TylerS]

I'm in a similar situation as you. Looking to get into the hobby with a used tank. I've been reading up on it for about 6 months off and on now.

I wouldn't let anyone convince you not to buy the 250 gallon if you're up for the challenge. It seems like you already have a healthy respect and realization that it will take some hard work and won't be easy and I think that's all most people need.

If you do live in a rural area it might not be that easy to come by another tank of similar size and quality. I live in a somewhat urban area and I don't see large nice tanks all that often. I've been browsing for about 6 months and have only seen one I would really consider purchasing.

One thing I've realized is that I really don't like the methodology of reading and looking for advice on forums. Tackling one topic at a time and sifting through what is bad info and what is good info is really time consuming and difficult. Something I plan to ask for a birthday gift is this book series http://www.mrsaltwatertank.com/successstore/ to save some time. It might be a good consolidated reference from start to finish. He's even got a whole book on moving a tank. I haven't purchased it yet or set up a tank, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

What's the worst that could happen? Maybe loss of the livestock? You could see if the seller will part it out, sell the livestock to someone else, and all the equipment to you. That gives you the chance to build it up on your own schedule.

[Tin Man]

A tank can be automated once it is in good shape.
Automations I have: my lights, my feeding, my topping off with fresh water, my temperature---and to a certain extent my chemistry: let me explain that these are all without a controller, and without very spendy equipment.
1. lights. a hardware store timer.
2. temperature: knowing my tank and skill in setting the heater dial---I watch it on change of seasons to make minor adjustment, but otherwise, it's set at a point where it can hold pretty steady day to night.
3. salinity: I set that and it stays because I have an inexpensive auto-topoff system, with a reservoir of fresh water. The water falls in a tube inserted in the water: it kicks on the pump to shoot fresh water in. The water rises---it cuts off the pump. SImple physics and a clever switch.
4. tank chemistry: if you set your salinity at 1.025 and your magnesium at 1300, then bring your alkalinity to 8.3 and your calcium to 420, AND add Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime AKA kalk to your topoff reservoir, the chemistry will stay rock solid at that reading until the magnesium runs low. This can take several months. As long as coralline algae spots are appearing on my glass, it's a pretty good indicator the mg is ok, but I do test it.
5. testing once a week takes less than 10 minutes once you get practiced, and a logbook reminds you how things were, and what direction they're trending.

I have safely left my tank in the hands of a novice tanksitter for a month with only one instruction: if the fresh water runs low, pour in water from this barrel, and phone me if anything really weird happens.

Excellent post as always. You mentioned automating feeding. Fish feeding, chemistry feeding or coral feeding? How?

[Sk8r]

All, pretty well. Fish feeding (because I feed when I can, but moderately.) Eheim fish feeder, works on battery, easy to handle dry food. Chemistry feeding: I dose only 3 things---well, one by two methods. For magnesium, Kent Tech M. For calcium Kent Turbo Calcium if needed, but need generally supplied by kalk (aka Mrs Wages Pickling Lime, 2 tsp a gallon of fresh water in the topoff reservoir: precise measurement is not needed, since ph/alk governs how much will dissolve, and it doesn't go bad, lying and waiting in reservoir. i just dump in 2 lbs into my 32 gallon Rubbermaid Brute trashcan reservoir and expect it to dissolve more as I refill the reservoir. Terribly cavalier, but it works fine. And I keep the water buffered with Kent DKH Alkalinity buffer, at a steady 8.3. Once those parameters are set by hand-dosing, the pickling lime will dissolve into the topoff water and feed into the tank by evaporation, which supplies all the calcium the corals need. The light (10000k mh) supplies them with sugars via their photosynethesizing passengers in their tissue (the zooxanthellae)---and they use magnesium, but very slowly. Fish poo in the water also feeds the corals. And the skimmer takes out the things nothing wants, like excess amino acids and dead bacteria.

I also have a sand-rock-moss refugium in the middle 20 gallons of my 30 gallon sump, and it has a breeding colony of mysis shrimp and copepods and edible amphipods, so fish upstairs get a bit of a treat now and again: these creatures can travel undamaged through my pump.

[GANGGREEN]

I really like the idea of automation and a tank that's balanced well enough that your actual maintenance chores are at an absolute minimum but it's obviously going to take me some time to understand the needs of the system well enough to get to that level of stasis.

[Sk8r]

We have a lovely sticky up top of this forum entitled SETTING UP. It is a handbook that carries you beyond just set up.

[pdiehm]

i'm in the same boat. I bought a 120 gallon a few weeks before thanksgiving. I still don't have it set up in the house. I made a stand, and a canopy. I have dry rock still curing in RODI water.

I've learned a lot on doing things yourself. I've made a few mistakes and some things I'd do over different.

I would like to get some hard to kill corals at some point, but I figure for the first year, or so, there'll be only fish in my tank. Hopefully by Memorial Day, I'll have a pair of clowns in my 120.

If you decide against the 250, I would recommend a 120. I would also recommend a non-reef ready and make your own overflow. I drilled mine for a beananimal overflow, and as I tested it in the garage, the sheer amount of water that it can move is quite impressive, not to mention dead silent. I can't imagine a reef ready tank moving that amount of water, that quietly.

Of course, I could have gotten the same 120 that was reef ready, but I just couldn't justify the additional 300 dollars for them to drill 4 holes.

[Sk8r]

Corals are easier than fish if you control your water parameters, which is not hard to do---and if you have lighting appropriate for that type of coral. Softie corals don't take hyper-strong light; stony coral does (with a couple of exceptions, bubble and plate). Softie coral doesn't eat up much calcium; stony does. Outside of that, it doesn't jump or get into impellers. I do recommend a coral dip, because coral has its own peculiar pests you do not want: pests ride in on what they eat.

[GANGGREEN]

i'm in the same boat. I bought a 120 gallon a few weeks before thanksgiving. I still don't have it set up in the house. I made a stand, and a canopy. I have dry rock still curing in RODI water.

I've learned a lot on doing things yourself. I've made a few mistakes and some things I'd do over different.

I would like to get some hard to kill corals at some point, but I figure for the first year, or so, there'll be only fish in my tank. Hopefully by Memorial Day, I'll have a pair of clowns in my 120.

If you decide against the 250, I would recommend a 120. I would also recommend a non-reef ready and make your own overflow. I drilled mine for a beananimal overflow, and as I tested it in the garage, the sheer amount of water that it can move is quite impressive, not to mention dead silent. I can't imagine a reef ready tank moving that amount of water, that quietly.

Of course, I could have gotten the same 120 that was reef ready, but I just couldn't justify the additional 300 dollars for them to drill 4 holes.

Good points. I actually wish that I knew someone in my local area with a ton of knowledge who I could pay to get me set up and to educate me as he/she did so. I don't have any set time schedule so if it takes me weeks, months or years to learn what I need and to slowly set up my tank and get it ready for livestock, then so be it, but having a knowledgeable person do it for me would not only make the learning curve shorter but would probably guarantee far less likelihood of making a big mistake or doing something stupid that might end up really upsetting the whole project.

[GANGGREEN]

Corals are easier than fish if you control your water parameters, which is not hard to do---and if you have lighting appropriate for that type of coral. Softie corals don't take hyper-strong light; stony coral does (with a couple of exceptions, bubble and plate). Softie coral doesn't eat up much calcium; stony does. Outside of that, it doesn't jump or get into impellers. I do recommend a coral dip, because coral has its own peculiar pests you do not want: pests ride in on what they eat.


Thanks, eventually I would definitely want both, corals and fish, but in the meantime, it probably would pay for me to start with one or the other but not both.

[pdiehm]

Good points. I actually wish that I knew someone in my local area with a ton of knowledge who I could pay to get me set up and to educate me as he/she did so. I don't have any set time schedule so if it takes me weeks, months or years to learn what I need and to slowly set up my tank and get it ready for livestock, then so be it, but having a knowledgeable person do it for me would not only make the learning curve shorter but would probably guarantee far less likelihood of making a big mistake or doing something stupid that might end up really upsetting the whole project.

I got no one here as well. This forum, and a local club have been my main sources of info.

[novadan67]

Thanks, eventually I would definitely want both, corals and fish, but in the meantime, it probably would pay for me to start with one or the other but not both.
I wouldn't shy away from making your first tank a reef if that's what you want (that's what I did). Just buy good equipment and do your homework (read this forum) and you'll be fine. Take it slow and start with easy to care for coral / fish... It's really not as difficult as it sounds if you take time and learn BEFORE buying ANYTHING!