Prepping a Tank for a Mandarin Dragonette

[Threshold]

I have read that a tank isn't ready to support a mandarin dragonette until it has been going a year...

I am guessing that this isn't saying "unless you do something to speed this process along!"

So I am wondering -- if I add a refugium and put in a bunch of 'pods, then how long should I wait beore introducing the dragonette?

Also, is the "wait a year" advice based on anything other than the 'pod population? (If that's the only reason then I'd imagine that you could get a dragonette right away -- if you were content buying pods often for it!)

Any other strategies for getting a tank ready for a dragonette promptly?

Note: I am just trying to find what options I have. I am entirely content waiting the year if that's what it takes to keep it healthy.

-Dave

[Threshold]

Oh, on a related note...

Please confirm if my assumption is correct... If I use dry rock and add biospira, that just adds bacteria -- I still wouldn't have 'pods, right?

[mcgyvr]

Your assumption (post 2) is correct

and here
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23545808

IMO.. find a different fish.. Leave them in the sea.

[Yonp11]

I have a red scooter dragonette so I recently went through this process of setting up the refugium and seeding it etc.

Best advice is see of the mandarin will eat frozen food at the LFS before you buy it. Not that you'll only feed it frozen food and won't need pods, but it's a good way to supplement their diet in addition to pods.

I oversized my refugium to make sure that I could support the scooter. I have a 40g tank, I made my refugium pretty large relative to the tank size, and stocked it with tons of rock and macroalgae . From what I've read, these fish can eat thousands of pods in just a day, so you'll need a large refugium if you're going to support one.

I bought a pack of pods and phytoplankton from algaebarn, seeding the fuge and fed as directed, about a week or two later I finally saw pods up in my display tank glass, and I noticed the scooter going around the hunting them down.

I don't think you have to wait a year, but you need to be prepared, give the pods time to multiply, and a safe place to maintain the population (fuge).

[MondoBongo]

the year is a good guide line for a few reasons.

1. it takes time, even more so with dry rock, for you tank to establish itself. it is going to go through several boom and bust cycles, be they algae, fauna, etc... so by giving your tank a year to settle in, you're giving the entire ecosystem that sprouts up in there time to mature and stabilize. you will see pods tank in your usually fairly soon after your cycle ends, however these guys are part of that boom and bust cycle. to sustain a strong population longer term, you need to give them, and their food sources, time to strongly colonize your rocks, sand, and other surfaces. this gives their population greater flexibility once you introduce a predator.

2. n00b. you are a n00b. you will make many mistakes. we all did (still do). an important part of the first year of your tank is you growing as a keeper. it doesn't matter how much you read, or how much you absorb, mistakes are going to happen in this hobby, and much more so in the first 12 - 18 months than at any other time. dragonets are sensitive fish. they're sensitive to their food source, they're sensitive to their tank mates, to their environment at large, and especially fluctuations and changes in that environment. they are difficult to maintain, so it is best to wait until you have your feet under you to try to keep them.

in the first year of my tank, i made several bone head mistakes that could have easily killed a more sensitive fish like a dragonet.

now i know what you're thinking: "i have been reading and i won't make these mistakes".

trust me, you will. :)

if not the same ones i made, then different ones. it happens. it is part of learning in this hobby.

what makes the dragonets more susceptible to mistakes is that they are specialized feeders. almost to the point of being obligate consumers of benthic copepods. don't let them eating frozen tempt you, anything you offer will only ever be a supplemental food source. they need to graze constantly on pods.

due to this, it can be hard, especially as a novice, to spot problems coming. i monitor my mandy daily to make sure she's OK. not losing weight, looking and acting right, because once these guys start to go down hill, it is very difficult (read as nearly impossible) to bring them back.

i know how captivating these fish are. in fact, my tank is dedicated to my mandy. anything that goes in there MUST be compatible with her, or it is an absolute no go. in your first year you will have plenty going on, both good and bad, to keep you busy. it is an important time to learn and grow, and to get to know your system. it seems like a long time, but it will go by quickly.

trust me, your patience will be rewarded.

as an addendum, you're realistically looking at about 55 gallons, plus a 20 gallon refugium, to support a single mandarin. for even better odds, bigger tanks and bigger fuges help.

[Threshold]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

My feel is: I would like to get the mandarin dragonette -- but a higher priority is to be able to give it a good home.

So I am entirely fine with waiting the year so I may get used to saltwater reefing and to prepare the live rock and tank for the dragonette.

I figure that early on I can introduce the pods -- so they'll have a nice colony when the mandarin is introduced.

Is there a problem with having pods but no predator that feeds on them during that first year? Is there any potential for having too many pods? (My feel is that their population will be fine -- but I'd love to get your confirmation!)

My plan is to vet all critters to make sure they'll be a fit for my tank. The closest to a spontaneous purchase would be having a list of acceptable critters and then spontaneously choosing which one from the list I go with...

But it is a goal of mine to have a mandarin someday. :)

[Goldndoodle]

Wanting a Mandarin (and a Kole Tang) is the reason I upgraded from a nanoCube to a 120G setup. My 120G has been up and running for 2 months, had CUC in it for 4 weeks, corals for 2 weeks, and will soon get my nanoCube fish (once they complete quarantine procedures).

MondoBongo's advice above is spot on for what I would tell you about a Mandy, and is exactly what I'm planning to do as well. I recently added cheato to my fuge. Once I see that it is growing, I will add copepods to both the fuge and the display to start my pod colony in hopes of one day supporting a Mandy.

Over the next year, I plan to add all the other fish I want - just to make sure none of them will compete for eating the pod herd. Only when I know there's enough pods for everything in the tank, and still enough for a Mandy, will I make the purchase.

I don't want an "instant reef" ... I want a successful reef! So I'm willing to take my time, and do it right.

[MondoBongo]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

My feel is: I would like to get the mandarin dragonette -- but a higher priority is to be able to give it a good home.

So I am entirely fine with waiting the year so I may get used to saltwater reefing and to prepare the live rock and tank for the dragonette.

I figure that early on I can introduce the pods -- so they'll have a nice colony when the mandarin is introduced.

Is there a problem with having pods but no predator that feeds on them during that first year? Is there any potential for having too many pods? (My feel is that their population will be fine -- but I'd love to get your confirmation!)

My plan is to vet all critters to make sure they'll be a fit for my tank. The closest to a spontaneous purchase would be having a list of acceptable critters and then spontaneously choosing which one from the list I go with...

But it is a goal of mine to have a mandarin someday. :)

the pod populations will self regulate based on available conditions like food and livable space. so you won't have an issue by not having a heavy feeder.

most fish eat them, as do lots of other things in our tank. they are one of the lower rungs of the marine food chain. so rest assured that some will be eaten, but not at the rate a mandarin or wrasse would gobble them up at.

pods will tend to hitchhike in on lots of different things. as Goldendoodle noted, adding chaeto to your fuge is a great way to start your population off. you don't need to go out an buy bottled pods, but it doesn't hurt.

it's always good to have a solid supplemental feeding strategy in place as well. something to help assist in buffering your fish's diet. i use a mix of frozen foods (nutramar ova and cyclop-eeze, both of which are very difficult to find currently), as well as freshly hatched baby brine shrimp in a PaulB style feeder, and occasionally live black worms.

[igot2gats]

the year is a good guide line for a few reasons.

1. it takes time, even more so with dry rock, for you tank to establish itself. it is going to go through several boom and bust cycles, be they algae, fauna, etc... so by giving your tank a year to settle in, you're giving the entire ecosystem that sprouts up in there time to mature and stabilize. you will see pods tank in your usually fairly soon after your cycle ends, however these guys are part of that boom and bust cycle. to sustain a strong population longer term, you need to give them, and their food sources, time to strongly colonize your rocks, sand, and other surfaces. this gives their population greater flexibility once you introduce a predator.

2. n00b. you are a n00b. you will make many mistakes. we all did (still do). an important part of the first year of your tank is you growing as a keeper. it doesn't matter how much you read, or how much you absorb, mistakes are going to happen in this hobby, and much more so in the first 12 - 18 months than at any other time. dragonets are sensitive fish. they're sensitive to their food source, they're sensitive to their tank mates, to their environment at large, and especially fluctuations and changes in that environment. they are difficult to maintain, so it is best to wait until you have your feet under you to try to keep them.

in the first year of my tank, i made several bone head mistakes that could have easily killed a more sensitive fish like a dragonet.

now i know what you're thinking: "i have been reading and i won't make these mistakes".

trust me, you will. :)

if not the same ones i made, then different ones. it happens. it is part of learning in this hobby.

what makes the dragonets more susceptible to mistakes is that they are specialized feeders. almost to the point of being obligate consumers of benthic copepods. don't let them eating frozen tempt you, anything you offer will only ever be a supplemental food source. they need to graze constantly on pods.

due to this, it can be hard, especially as a novice, to spot problems coming. i monitor my mandy daily to make sure she's OK. not losing weight, looking and acting right, because once these guys start to go down hill, it is very difficult (read as nearly impossible) to bring them back.

i know how captivating these fish are. in fact, my tank is dedicated to my mandy. anything that goes in there MUST be compatible with her, or it is an absolute no go. in your first year you will have plenty going on, both good and bad, to keep you busy. it is an important time to learn and grow, and to get to know your system. it seems like a long time, but it will go by quickly.

trust me, your patience will be rewarded.

as an addendum, you're realistically looking at about 55 gallons, plus a 20 gallon refugium, to support a single mandarin. for even better odds, bigger tanks and bigger fuges help.

I couldn't say this any better. Kudos to this post.

now i know what you're thinking: "i have been reading and i won't make these mistakes".

trust me, you will. :)



And this is the most underrated part of this hobby.


This hobby is not a race. There's no reason to rush anything. I don't understand why there are always people who think it's better to have a full blown reef tank in less than a year.

[shred5]

Mandarin Dragonets are hard to care for now days. Copepods are their main food and even in large tanks now a days copepod populations can remain pretty low. High Copepod populations really are a sign of a high nutrient levels or a dirty tank which is bad. They mainly feed on algae and detritus this is why there are so many seen on the glass during cycle. Now days we keep our tanks too clean for high populations of copepods. Allot of us use bare bottoms or have super-efficient skimmers.
There are also too many fish kept in a reef tank that out compete a mandarin. These include most wrasses, basslets, pseudochromis, and royal grammas etc.

Also fuges really don’t do allot, why would a copepod leave the safety of a refugium or a food source? A refugium especially one with cheato can trap detritus which is a food source for a copepod.

There are ways to keep them though. The best is setup a copepod farm and breed copepods and add them to your tank. Only take a couple of jars or small tanks.
You can also train you dragonet to eat other foods. Baby brine and enriched adult brine shrimp can be a substitute but not to be the only food. Some have also got them too eat pellets.

[Threshold]

I don't want an "instant reef" ... I want a successful reef! So I'm willing to take my time, and do it right.

I couldn't have said this better myself!

The Kole Tang looks cool -- I knew what a Tang was, but had to google the kole tang was. :)

What does CUC stand for? Oh! Clean Up Crew! Okay -- so what is your clean up crew? (I thought that the tang was considered the clean up crew.)

If you have fish in your nanocube, why are you quarantining them before putting them into the 120? Aren't they already known to be safe/clean?

-Newbie Dave

[Threshold]

why would a copepod leave the safety of a refugium or a food source?

My plan was to invent a new saltwater aquarium accessory just for mandies... Basically, a switch in the display tank that the many can hit with a fin. This triggers a special mix of music to play near the refugium. Depressing goth stuff to encourage the rebellious teen 'pod population to leave the 'fuge out of suicidal desperation, and perhaps some music with offensive lyrics to encourage the older, stodgier 'pods to leave home and look for a quieter area.

The mandy just taps the switch and then gets flooded with 'pods coming in from the return pump!

[MondoBongo]

I couldn't have said this better myself!

The Kole Tang looks cool -- I knew what a Tang was, but had to google the kole tang was. :)

What does CUC stand for? Oh! Clean Up Crew! Okay -- so what is your clean up crew? (I thought that the tang was considered the clean up crew.)

If you have fish in your nanocube, why are you quarantining them before putting them into the 120? Aren't they already known to be safe/clean?

-Newbie Dave

usually Clean Up Crew is in reference to invertebrates, but i see your point about the tang.

you will find varying answers to this, and a lot of it depends on what you're ultimately planning to keep. i.e. you wouldn't want camel back shrimp if you plan on keeping on corals. so the direction of your tank will factor in to your CUC selection greatly.

typically a CUC consists of some arrangement of snails, hermit crabs, and shrimp, plus the various hitchhiker members like bristle worms and mini brittle stars.

i, personally, have about 4 different kinds of snails, some peppermint shrimp, some emerald crabs, some blue legged hermit crabs, skunk cleaner shrimp, and the aforementioned bristle worms and mini brittle stars.

again, people have differing views on what clean up crews they prefer, for various reasons, so take a look around and figure out what you think will work best for you rig. as always, the boards are a great place to ask about specific experiences, or search old threads for advice.

cheers.

My plan was to invent a new saltwater aquarium accessory just for mandies... Basically, a switch in the display tank that the many can hit with a fin. This triggers a special mix of music to play near the refugium. Depressing goth stuff to encourage the rebellious teen 'pod population to leave the 'fuge out of suicidal desperation, and perhaps some music with offensive lyrics to encourage the older, stodgier 'pods to leave home and look for a quieter area.

The mandy just taps the switch and then gets flooded with 'pods coming in from the return pump!

let me know when your kickstarter is up, i'll help fund this.

[Goldndoodle]

I couldn't have said this better myself!

The Kole Tang looks cool -- I knew what a Tang was, but had to google the kole tang was. :)

What does CUC stand for? Oh! Clean Up Crew! Okay -- so what is your clean up crew? (I thought that the tang was considered the clean up crew.)

If you have fish in your nanocube, why are you quarantining them before putting them into the 120? Aren't they already known to be safe/clean?

-Newbie Dave

My clean up crew consists of the following -

2 - fighting conch (new purchase)
3 - peppermint shrimp (new purchase)
1 - blood shrimp (new purchase)
3 - Zebra Turbo snails (transplanted from nanoCube)
6 - Mexican Turbo snails (new purchase)
6 - astrea snails (new purchase)
6 - bumble bee snails (transplants)
8 - trochus snails (2 transplant, 6 new purchase)
2 - large emerald crabs (new purchase)
Numerous blue leg & red leg hermits (some transplants, some new purchase)

I'm quarantining (actually performing TTM - tank transfer method) on my nanoCube fish because I want to ensure that I don't move any ICK. I seriously doubt that I have ICK on my fish, but I'm just going the extra step to ensure that I do not ("instant" vs successful). The CUC would generally not have any ICK on them so I figured they were ok to transfer. And the corals could have ICK - but based on my observation of my fish over the past 12 months, I'm taking the chance by just moving the coral without QT.

I have never QTed fish before - I always just purchased, acclimated and put them in the nanoCube. And apparently I got very lucky that I never put ICK, flukes or velvet into that small tank. Once I started researching bigger tanks, I found out about QT & TTM protocols. The other reason I am TTMing the nanoCube gang is so I get used to the process before trying it on new purchases.

[hotelbravo]

Im quoting some of the most interesting information I have been told about mandarins. They need to eat 1 copepod every 5 seconds to stay healthy. They only feed during the day meaning they need 8640 copepods to munch on in a day. The moral of this is that you need alot. And you need to have alot for aslong as you can so all of those hordes of copepods can breed and breed and put tens of thousands back into your tank.

[Threshold]

Mondo, thanks for your reply. I will add your list of shrimp, crabs, etc. to my list of critters to consider. :)

Actually, now I'm thinking about switching gears from looking at what equipment I need to looking at the critters I want. So far I had a list of things that would be nice -- knowing I'd only actually purchase things that would be a fit for my overall goal. But now I feel like I need more of a definite plan in this direction before returning to designing the tank.

I've never considered giving up on designing my dream aquarium -- but sometimes I wonder if I'll actually attempt it. The latest reason I am questioning it is from reading some posts about quarantine tanks/procedures. I question whether I'd be able to identify the various parasites and diseases and such!

Gold, thank you for your reply, too! I'm adding your CUC to my list of critters to consider. :)

I appreciate your use of quarantine as practice before your new purchases. I feel that decision shows wisdom.

[Threshold]

A new angle on mandarin owning...

Previously I had planned on a 40 gallon tank just because a website said a mandarin needed a 40 gallon or larger tank... What it didn't say (and I hadn't asked until now) is: How large of a tank is required so the pod population can support a mandarin?

Once more, this is assuming no competition for pods -- just the mandarin.

Please let me know what you think. Answer any way you see fit (e.g., an X gallon DT... a Y gallon fuge... etc.)

[MondoBongo]

The best baseline for the minimum is 55 gallon with at least 20 gallons of productive refugium, and no competition.

My personal preference is 75 gallons though. Rock heavy, with a fuge.

And sand substrate (not bare bottom) is assumed in all cases.

[Threshold]

Thanks, Mondo!

[Art13]

Just another story from a fellow reefer, but i did a lot of research and it seemed like they were hit or miss for everyone. When i started up my 90, i seeded it with pods from almost day 1, as my wife's favorite fish happened to be the mandy. After 6 months i decided to take the plunge and try it out. After freaking out and buying about $80 in different types of frozen and live food, i got him to start eating frozen thawed mysis and bloodworms (he loves the bloodworms). Its been about 6-8 months now, i haven't seeded the tank again, pods are still good, mandy is nice and fat. I feed the frozen thawed every 2-3 days and supplement with pellets in between. I guess i could be one of the very lucky ones in this case, but i thought i would share. In the beginning i used to shoot about 3-4 different kinds of frozen food in a pile in front of him with the pumps off and let it sit for 10 minutes, i was thrilled when i actually saw him start eating them.

To add to it as well, i have no sump so i put on a HOB 3 gallon fuge with rock rubble and chaeto, might not do much but its there.

[Threshold]

In the beginning i used to shoot about 3-4 different kinds of frozen food in a pile in front of him with the pumps off and let it sit for 10 minutes, i was thrilled when i actually saw him start eating them.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink? :)

Thanks for sharing. :)

[Threshold]

Another mandarin question. :)

How do I combine getting a mandarin with using a quarantine tank? If the fish's main food source will be the pods in my DT, how do I feed it for the time it is in quarantine?

[MondoBongo]

see my thoughts here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2433928&highlight=mandarin+qt

for the short term, you could also do tank transfer method (aka TTM), along with heavily supplemental feeding, but this also has its own associated risks. mainly getting enough food for them to survive.

[Threshold]

Thanks, Mondo! Speaking of TTM, do you know where I may read about it? I did some forum searches and saw a lot of discussion about it -- but didn't see a tutorial for how to do it (and why).

[MondoBongo]

there is some excellent information here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1996525

keep in mind, it will be challenging and expensive to keep them properly fed during this time, and you have to start with a well conditioned specimen for best chances of success.

[Threshold]

Mondo, perhaps I will look for a captive bred one -- just so it is more likely to tolerate prepared foods.

Thanks for all of the T2T info! Is it reasonable to start by taking my fish into one quarantine tank and only doing T2T if it seems they are sick? (If nothing is falling off the fish in the first couple days then it seems like an unnecessary stresser to transfer them every 3 days.)

[MondoBongo]

Mondo, perhaps I will look for a captive bred one -- just so it is more likely to tolerate prepared foods.

Thanks for all of the T2T info! Is it reasonable to start by taking my fish into one quarantine tank and only doing T2T if it seems they are sick? (If nothing is falling off the fish in the first couple days then it seems like an unnecessary stresser to transfer them every 3 days.)

that is an incorrect myth that has unfortunately been perpetrated quite often.

first, i haven't seen or heard of any captive bred ones available, since ORA stopped offering them.

second, they were no more inclined to take prepared foods than any other dragonet.

[Threshold]

I had the ORA ones in mind. I didn't know they stopped selling them. And I didn't know they couldn't eat prepared foods.

[Sk8r]

They depend on copepods, a live food that a fuge can produce, but since they eat about 1000 of them each and every hour and a half of daylight, it has to be a very productive large fuge. I've had one, and only one, take to eating sinking pellet Formula One, but I'm not convinced it was any thing like a complete nutritional diet. And it never slowed her down in her quest for pods. Bottled pods---come in about 1000 per bottle for about 30 dollars. It's a stopgap, but your own producing fuge or about 100 gallons of rockwork-heavy tank is the only way to keep them well.

[MondoBongo]

It's not that they couldn't, or shouldn't, or won't, or can't. It's just that, like Sk8r said, their primary diet should always come from foraging for micro fauna, and anything you give them is strictly supplemental.

[golferbud101691]

Another mandarin question. :)

How do I combine getting a mandarin with using a quarantine tank? If the fish's main food source will be the pods in my DT, how do I feed it for the time it is in quarantine?

Use a turkey baster to remove pods off rocks and in the fuge. Then you can feed them to your mandarin.