View Full Version : Skunk cleaners shrimps dying
michaelr7170
03/06/2015, 05:53 AM
All,
My 90gal tank is about 4 weeks old and it has fully cycled. I have two percula clowns in there that are doing fantastic, and a flame tailed blenny that's doing the same. My sump consists of mechanical filter media, a 150gal skimmer, a fuge with LS, LR and chaeto which is growing quickly. I have about 90 lbs of LR altogether. There are also 5 margarita snails in there after I had my first diatom breakout.
I know I'll be asked, so parameters are as follows: 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, ~5ppm Nitrate, 9.1 dKH, 420 calc, 8.2 pH, 1.026 salinity, temp at ~77-78 oF
I have tried 3 cleaners now, the first which died after 48 hours. Then I tried getting two after reading they tend to like being in groups and hoping the first was just bad luck, however yesterday one of those two were dead and this morning I woke up to the other dead.
Any idea what could be going on here?? I'm so consfused.
Thanks
CuzzA
03/06/2015, 06:08 AM
How are you acclimating them?
A sea K
03/06/2015, 06:13 AM
Water parameters look good but 4 weeks is a pretty quick cycle time so I would re-check or validate your ammonia and nitrite levels first. If they are confirmed as accurate then I would look towards acclimation, invertebrates are generally more sensitive to rapid water chemistry changes.
michaelr7170
03/06/2015, 06:18 AM
How are you acclimating them?
Drip acclimate ~1.5 hours
michaelr7170
03/06/2015, 06:19 AM
Water parameters look good but 4 weeks is a pretty quick cycle time so I would re-check or validate your ammonia and nitrite levels first. If they are confirmed as accurate then I would look towards acclimation, invertebrates are generally more sensitive to rapid water chemistry changes.
I agree it's quick! However I've tested every day for 10 days straight now, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite. Even after adding live stock again still 0's. Yesterday evening my nitrates are giving me readings ~5-10 but tomorrow is my planned WC anyway so it's all good
CuzzA
03/06/2015, 06:39 AM
Well it's likely not from the acclimation process you're executing. I would add more snails and crabs. I would rather use cheap inverts to see if my system can support more sensitive life than using a $20 shrimp. Give it a month and try again or use a cheap Gulf bait shrimp and see if it will survive.
As far as everything testing ok, that is inaccurate. You're only testing a few of the common parameters. With such a young tank you simply can't test for or know what your rocks are leaching into the water. Not to mention, in a new tank it takes some time for your system to balance both chemically and biologically.
It's my opinion, every new system should start running GFO and GAC in reactors as soon as the tank gets wet to export all of the possible bad things your rock could be leaching.
michaelr7170
03/06/2015, 06:46 AM
Well it's likely not from the acclimation process you're executing. I would add more snails and crabs. I would rather use cheap inverts to see if my system can support more sensitive life than using a $20 shrimp. Give it a month and try again or use a cheap Gulf bait shrimp and see if it will survive.
As far as everything testing ok, that is inaccurate. You're only testing a few of the common parameters. With such a young tank you simply can't test for or know what your rocks are leaching into the water. Not to mention, in a new tank it takes some time for your system to balance both chemically and biologically.
It's my opinion, every new system should start running GFO and GAC in reactors as soon as the tank gets wet to export all of the possible bad things your rock could be leaching.
I didn't just test the basics, that's just all I listed just now. Every day I tested phosphates, calc, alk, pH as well as ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. Went through my full reef/saltwater master kits. Is there anything else you recommend testing?
alexander_ktn
03/06/2015, 07:26 AM
I would let your LFS check the main parameters against your tests to make sure there is no testing error and I would use some carbon or polyfilter etc. to get rid of possible toxic products that might or might not be in the tank like copper or similar.
Those are shots in the dark, though, hard to say what's going on, especially since the snails don't seem to be affected.
scooter31707
03/06/2015, 07:37 AM
IME, I lost a couple of cleaner shrimp myself, thought I was doing everything right. Went to my LFS and asked what was wrong. Well he told me to try 1-2 drips per second for cleaner shrimp vice the 3-5 drips for fish. He said they are alot more sensitive than fish. Once I did that, no problems at all.
michaelr7170
03/06/2015, 07:46 AM
I think I'm going to monitor how my snails do, maybe add a few more over time along with some hermits and observe. I will try another cleaner in maybe 4-6 weeks depending how things are looking.
I will try a slower drip next time as you say, 3-5 drips per second
CuzzA
03/06/2015, 07:56 AM
The only other test I would get is magnesium (important to keep calcium and alkalinity balanced).
As far as not just testing the basics, there is much more to seawater chemically. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php And I'm not suggesting that all of this should be tested. In fact I wouldn't worry about all the other trace elements. Water changes will replenish them.
More so, I would be concerned with what may be bound into your rocks and now is leaching into the water. That is why I suggest filtering your water with GFO and GAC. And possibly using Poly Filter if inverts keep dying. This will indicate the presence of low concentrations of copper among other things that a typical copper test kit can't read because they're designed for higher concentrations for medicating fish. It's unlikely that copper is a culprit if you purchased everything new, but if it was a used tank with someone else's rock, you simply have no idea what the previous owner may have put in the tank. Again, it's unlikely, but a possibility.
Ultimately, like I said, with such a young tank it simply takes time to stabilize and sensitive inverts are usually the first to parish if something is wrong. I would run GAC and GFO, products that you'll likely continue to use anyway and pick up more crabs and snails and a Poly Filter. A $10 filter is a lot cheaper than continuously killing $20 shrimp.
I've talked to fellow hobbyists that have had to go months before their system could support sensitive life. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby. Patience will pay off and save you a lot of money and frustration, not to mention the lives of these ornamental marine creatures.
michaelr7170
03/06/2015, 08:04 AM
The only other test I would get is magnesium (important to keep calcium and alkalinity balanced).
As far as not just testing the basics, there is much more to seawater chemically. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php And I'm not suggesting that all of this should be tested. In fact I wouldn't worry about all the other trace elements. Water changes will replenish them.
More so, I would be concerned with what may be bound into your rocks and now is leaching into the water. That is why I suggest filtering your water with GFO and GAC. And possibly using Poly Filter if inverts keep dying. This will indicate the presence of low concentrations of copper among other things that a typical copper test kit can't read because they're designed for higher concentrations for medicating fish. It's unlikely that copper is a culprit if you purchased everything new, but if it was a used tank with someone else's rock, you simply have no idea what the previous owner may have put in the tank. Again, it's unlikely, but a possibility.
Ultimately, like I said, with such a young tank it simply takes time to stabilize and sensitive inverts are usually the first to parish if something is wrong. I would run GAC and GFO, products that you'll likely continue to use anyway and pick up more crabs and snails and a Poly Filter. A $10 filter is a lot cheaper than continuously killing $20 shrimp.
I've talked to fellow hobbyists that have had to go months before their system could support sensitive life. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby. Patience will pay off and save you a lot of money and frustration, not to mention the lives of these ornamental marine creatures.
Thanks for this, I am going to look into adding this to my filtration. I guess it can't do any harm, correct? I won't lose any "beneficial" nutrients/minerals from it?
CuzzA
03/06/2015, 08:17 AM
Nope, 3 very common filters in this hobby. I run GAC and GFO 24/7 and will rarely throw a poly filter in between my baffles in my sump if I notice my corals are looking upset or for example I recently had a solenoid rusting on my ATO line (solenoid purchased from a popular ATO company, btw) and just as a precaution I threw some poly filter in the sump. Again a $10 filter is super cheap compared to the value of my livestock.
Mythicalelf
03/06/2015, 08:23 AM
For me in the past when I had a FOWLR and added a CUC to it the only inverts that survived was the cheap crabs and snails. The ornamental ones died. I found the problem was I used PLAY SAND and something in it was killing them. I changed it out and waited awhile and everything was ok after that. Also I talked with someone and the asked how I accumulated and I told that I did the drip for @ an hour and they said that was too short. I now drip @3-4hrs and since then I havent' lost any like that.
I'm starting a reef tank now since being out of the hobby for a few years and I'm taking it SLOW.
I hope you figure out what happened.
michaelr7170
03/06/2015, 08:47 AM
Nope, 3 very common filters in this hobby. I run GAC and GFO 24/7 and will rarely throw a poly filter in between my baffles in my sump if I notice my corals are looking upset or for example I recently had a solenoid rusting on my ATO line (solenoid purchased from a popular ATO company, btw) and just as a precaution I threw some poly filter in the sump. Again a $10 filter is super cheap compared to the value of my livestock.
Thanks, I'm setting this up for sure
tzylak
03/06/2015, 08:48 AM
. . . .4 weeks old. . . . From my point of view that's 4 weeks young.
Consider NOT ADDING anything for a month or two and let the tank mature and stabilize.
IMHO the rule "Add no more than one fish/week" applies to all of the livestock in the tank.
Slow down and enjoy the process. Do this for sake of the fish.
billdogg
03/06/2015, 11:02 AM
Are those the only inverts in the system? If so, I would suspect copper poisoning. You can test for copper, but most tests are very hard to read and therefore not terribly accurate. The advice to try some polyfilter is what I would suggest also. I forget what color it turns in the presence of copper (I think black?) but it will remove anything that might be an issue. Carbon is also your friend for things like this.
And I also agree that a tank is, at best, barely ready for livestock at 4 weeks, so I would strongly recommend that you slow down and allow the tank to stabilize a bit.
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