View Full Version : kinda losing it...
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 10:22 PM
kalkwasser?
Auto top off?
2 part dosing?
etc. etc. etc. etc.
I have a 40 gallon Breeder that I plan on keeping mostly LPS with several acropora.
what can I use to minimize the minute calculations and not fear a flood? but still keep a happy little tank?
i will never trust float valves or checkers. i hate anything auto. i only drive manual transmissions too LOL
too many variables and I don't want to deal with that headache of daily fear in possible floods and tank crashes with excess dosing.
i don't mind doing manual top offs daily or twice daily
i marked my tank where my salinity is right in my sump with a paint pen so I just top off to that point.
would the BRS two part solution work for me?
i would rather dose a set amount every day as in the demonstration video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVI69xOb_JM
and not worry about more timers and pumps and electricity.
or do i just drip kalkwasser 24/7? can i dose kalkwasser daily?
halp.
If you want sps I would use an ATO and dosing pumps and two part.
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 10:46 PM
If you want sps I would use an ATO and dosing pumps and two part.
all of the above?
all of the above?
What?
I would use an ATO to top off water for stability of salinity.
I would dose two part via dosing pumps on timers or an apex.
ardsman
03/07/2015, 10:55 PM
Well just over a month ago I started using Korallen Automatic tablets from BRS as I really did not want to get into the complications of dosing, I have to say I have seen a marked improvement in growth and color in my corals, I have several pieces of SPS lots of Zoa's and soft corals and all are faring well, much better than they were before. I use all four of the products and each tablet lasts around 3 months according to the product reviews.
supervdl
03/07/2015, 10:55 PM
What?
I would use an ATO to top off water for stability of salinity.
I would dose two part via dosing pumps on timers or an apex.
+1 especially on a small tank like this if you like to keep sps
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 10:57 PM
What?
I would use an ATO to top off water for stability of salinity.
I would dose two part via dosing pumps on timers or an apex.
i was just reiterating what you said in less words in question form, that i would need all of what you said to run any sps.
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 10:59 PM
Well just over a month ago I started using Korallen Automatic tablets from BRS as I really did not want to get into the complications of dosing, I have to say I have seen a marked improvement in growth and color in my corals, I have several pieces of SPS lots of Zoa's and soft corals and all are faring well, much better than they were before. I use all four of the products and each tablet lasts around 3 months according to the product reviews.
I seen that and was attractive to me.
the demonstration said though once it is depleted your eleft with a solid bar of whatever polymer was used to bind it right?
is it color changing?
Well just over a month ago I started using Korallen Automatic tablets from BRS as I really did not want to get into the complications of dosing, I have to say I have seen a marked improvement in growth and color in my corals, I have several pieces of SPS lots of Zoa's and soft corals and all are faring well, much better than they were before. I use all four of the products and each tablet lasts around 3 months according to the product reviews.
This sounds horrible. How would you ever keep steady parameters.
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZPbkXnu-g
lazydaze73
03/07/2015, 11:03 PM
I would highly recommend an ato. It makes life so much easier. It keeps everything much more stable and you can actually leave for a week and not worry about everything going out of whack.
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:07 PM
I would highly recommend an ato. It makes life so much easier. It keeps everything much more stable and you can actually leave for a week and not worry about everything going out of whack.
recommendations?
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:08 PM
says its rated for 50 gallon.
i have 40 gallon breeder with 20 sump
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/tunze-osmolator-nano-3152-auto-top-off.html
?
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:09 PM
this is the better one i think
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/tunze-osmolator-universal-3155-auto-top-off.html
lazydaze73
03/07/2015, 11:10 PM
I use the tunze osmolator. It's pretty much the most expensive one on the market but it's the only one I felt comfortable using based on reviews and safety features. And after using it for two months I have no complaints. Very quiet and precise. If you need any more specific info feel free to ask.
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:11 PM
I use the tunze osmolator. It's pretty much the most expensive one on the market but it's the only one I felt comfortable using based on reviews and safety features. And after using it for two months I have no complaints. Very quiet and precise. If you need any more specific info feel free to ask.
would all I need to do is put the kalkwasser in the reservoir and make sure i keep RODI and kalkwasser in their?
lazydaze73
03/07/2015, 11:13 PM
would all I need to do is put the kalkwasser in the reservoir and make sure i keep RODI and kalkwasser in their?
I'm not positive on that yet. I only have one frogspawn so far but from what I have been reading that sounds like all you need to do. I'm probably going to go that route once I start adding more corals though.
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:13 PM
I'm not positive on that yet. I only have one frogspawn so far but from what I have been reading that sounds like all you need to do. I'm probably going to go that route once I start adding more corals though.
looks like i need to make a new list of things to buy =P
lazydaze73
03/07/2015, 11:16 PM
looks like i need to make a new list of things to buy =P
Yeah id say that makes my fish tank life a whole lot less worry some. And I don't have to ask the wife to top off while I'm at work.
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:17 PM
Yeah id say that makes my fish tank life a whole lot less worry some. And I don't have to ask the wife to top off while I'm at work.
i don't even have anyone competent at home to trust just doing that!
so its just me maintaining this tank!
lazydaze73
03/07/2015, 11:24 PM
Yeah this hobby can seem overwhelming at times with how much there is to learn but I just take a step back and try and make it as automated as possible and try not to make it complicated. I've got it now to where all I really HAVE to do is empty my skimmer collection cup once a week but I find myself still tweaking with things on a daily basis. Lol
jminick2
03/07/2015, 11:27 PM
reef builders for alk, aquavitro calcification for calcium and aquavitro ions for mg once every 3 days pour it right in. easy peasy
FraggledRock
03/07/2015, 11:29 PM
Yeah this hobby can seem overwhelming at times with how much there is to learn but I just take a step back and try and make it as automated as possible and try not to make it complicated. I've got it now to where all I really HAVE to do is empty my skimmer collection cup once a week but I find myself still tweaking with things on a daily basis. Lol
if I can be sold on the security of consistency and safety with near 0 error (nothing is guarantteed) then I am sold! I was just afraid of stuck sensors and flooding...
I don't want to worry if my ATO is stuck in "on" or my dripper is over dosing while im at work 2 hours away!
so far on my list
- Osmolater Tunze 1355
- BRS 2 part
- Alkalinity test kit (mine is running low on fluid)
- calcium test kit (same issue)
what else do i need?
Do I need dosing pumps for the 2 parts or can i get away with the manual daily/weekly dosing?
Don't believe the hype. I don't have any ato or any automatic dosers. I bought BRS 2 part dosing and have barely got to use any of it. Every time I check parameters tey are always within a good range just using instant ocean and doing 20% water changes every two weeks. I have glass canopies right on top of my 75g and only add about 2 gallons of water every 5 days. That swing doesn't effect anything. I don't even have a sump, just a reef octupus skimmer (HOB) and a big canister filter dosing chemi pure elite and purigen. I have all types of corals and everything looks great and grows. I believe laziness in water changes, bad skimmers and letting a canister filter go months without cleaning is why this system gets a bad wrap. I clean the canister every 2 to 4 weeks. Works great for me....plus RODI water :wavehand:
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 12:16 AM
Don't believe the hype. I don't have any ato or any automatic dosers. I bought BRS 2 part dosing and have barely got to use any of it. Every time I check parameters tey are always within a good range just using instant ocean and doing 20% water changes every two weeks. I have glass canopies right on top of my 75g and only add about 2 gallons of water every 5 days. That swing doesn't effect anything. I don't even have a sump, just a reef octupus skimmer (HOB) and a big canister filter dosing chemi pure elite and purigen. I have all types of corals and everything looks great and grows. I believe laziness in water changes, bad skimmers and letting a canister filter go months without cleaning is why this system gets a bad wrap. I clean the canister every 2 to 4 weeks. Works great for me....plus RODI water :wavehand:
how long have you been running it like this?
may i see your tank?
i'm ocd about water changes. weekly changes.
i top off every day and test weekly.
i run a sock now that i DIY with fine mesh material so it doesn't clog in two days.
i have a massive skimmer and dosed when i needed to.
im recovering from a tank crash so corals to be aded again soon. i just wanna do it right he first time.
i just dont know anymore LOL
kmbyrnes
03/08/2015, 06:00 AM
Don't get too far ahead of yourself....
I stressed over all this as well in the beginning.
You don't need to add ANYTHING until your tests tell you so.
Get an ATO, it will keep your salinity stable.
Then do regular water changes with your chosen salt mix, and test Ca, Mg and Alk.
Once you see your tanks trend, you can determine what will need to be added.
My mixed reef has been running for 14 months, and I am just now reaching the point where IO salt can't replace what my tank is using, even with 15g WC every 2 weeks.
Patience and small changes will pay off long term.
Meanwhile, enjoy your accomplishments!
http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y476/kmbyrnes1960/20150222_2/FTS.jpg_zpsmt0mrj6e.jpg
Sgt Jonny Cat
03/08/2015, 06:00 AM
Hey Fraggled... I'm in just about the same spot as you. I have very small amount of corals (mushroom, small candy cane, and some GSP) and I want to get into SPS, but I don't have the space or the $ for dosing pumps, and ATO systems ( plus the wife will kill me if I buy more stuff) so I have been topping off by hand every day. I have looked at the Smart ATO system, seems cost effective, compact and easy to use. As far as calcium/Alk. I just watched one of newyork steelo's videos on B-Ionic calcium and alkalinity additives. According to him, that's what he uses. I'm not sure where I'll go with this but I figured I would add my 2 cents worth and see what people have to add. Good luck man...
Oh yea...the BRS tablets seem cool too....
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 08:50 AM
Don't get too far ahead of yourself....
I stressed over all this as well in the beginning.
You don't need to add ANYTHING until your tests tell you so.
Get an ATO, it will keep your salinity stable.
Then do regular water changes with your chosen salt mix, and test Ca, Mg and Alk.
Once you see your tanks trend, you can determine what will need to be added.
My mixed reef has been running for 14 months, and I am just now reaching the point where IO salt can't replace what my tank is using, even with 15g WC every 2 weeks.
Patience and small changes will pay off long term.
Meanwhile, enjoy your accomplishments!
http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/y476/kmbyrnes1960/20150222_2/FTS.jpg_zpsmt0mrj6e.jpg
Makes sense ;)
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 08:52 AM
Hey Fraggled... I'm in just about the same spot as you. I have very small amount of corals (mushroom, small candy cane, and some GSP) and I want to get into SPS, but I don't have the space or the $ for dosing pumps, and ATO systems ( plus the wife will kill me if I buy more stuff) so I have been topping off by hand every day. I have looked at the Smart ATO system, seems cost effective, compact and easy to use. As far as calcium/Alk. I just watched one of newyork steelo's videos on B-Ionic calcium and alkalinity additives. According to him, that's what he uses. I'm not sure where I'll go with this but I figured I would add my 2 cents worth and see what people have to add. Good luck man...
Oh yea...the BRS tablets seem cool too....
I may start with two part and get the tunze ATO. Dosing pumps im not ready for yet.
Maybe you can "prove" how its "safer" with the ATO ;p
SavingOurSeas
03/08/2015, 09:40 AM
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.
I just purchased a JBJ ATO - it was not used, still sealed in the box and 50% off.
I have a 30G rimless and the evap. is insane so I have no choice to add an ATO.
I will start a thread I suppose (if I have time) and log my results.
I also have been extremely skeptical of anything that can make the system have problems, however, automating it more now is a necessity if I am going to have one.
bklynreef123
03/08/2015, 11:42 AM
ATO's are indispensable for keeping salinity stable. Autotopoff.com has a great 2 float switch unit that is safe. Put snail guards on the floats and your good to go. Every few months vinegar bathe them to be on the safe side. Make sure you don't have the system setup where a siphon can be caused. Keep testing for alk mag and cal. You use kalkwasser to maintain levels. You can use the two part to adjust. Until your tank demands require it you should be good with Kalk only. Keep testing to be sure. The KZ tabs are not to maintain alk cal and mag they are for trace elements.
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 01:12 PM
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.
I just purchased a JBJ ATO - it was not used, still sealed in the box and 50% off.
I have a 30G rimless and the evap. is insane so I have no choice to add an ATO.
I will start a thread I suppose (if I have time) and log my results.
I also have been extremely skeptical of anything that can make the system have problems, however, automating it more now is a necessity if I am going to have one.
Sounds like a good thread to follow!
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 01:13 PM
ATO's are indispensable for keeping salinity stable. Autotopoff.com has a great 2 float switch unit that is safe. Put snail guards on the floats and your good to go. Every few months vinegar bathe them to be on the safe side. Make sure you don't have the system setup where a siphon can be caused. Keep testing for alk mag and cal. You use kalkwasser to maintain levels. You can use the two part to adjust. Until your tank demands require it you should be good with Kalk only. Keep testing to be sure. The KZ tabs are not to maintain alk cal and mag they are for trace elements.
Yea i guess waling up just mow snd seeing about a gallon evap over 10 hours during bed time is enough proof i need the ATO
I GUESS IF IT MAKES IT EASIER WHY NOT LOL
gone fishin
03/08/2015, 01:33 PM
I switched about a year ago from a JBJ ATO to the Tunze osmolator. JBJ float switches hung up on me a couple times causing issues. I have had zero issues with the Tunze I would highly recommend one.
As far as 2 part or lalkwasser goes I believe that is abit down the road for you and you got some time to research the pros and cons of each. FWIW I use the BRS 2 part dosing kit that came with the pumps.
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 01:40 PM
I switched about a year ago from a JBJ ATO to the Tunze osmolator. JBJ float switches hung up on me a couple times causing issues. I have had zero issues with the Tunze I would highly recommend one.
As far as 2 part or lalkwasser goes I believe that is abit down the road for you and you got some time to research the pros and cons of each. FWIW I use the BRS 2 part dosing kit that came with the pumps.
that was my fear. more pumps lol
Oh, you do trust things---gravity, daylight, basic demonstrable physics. Your bathroom float valve.
One of the most reliable types of autotopoff is the simple float that you use in your toilet tank. Water falls, it makes a contact that kicks on a pump. Water rises, the float rises, and the pump kicks off. Check out autotopoff.com and avast.com and hydor---the principles are generally the same. Sometimes it's water in a tube, sometimes it's a float, but IT is pretty reliable. I have snails in my sump-fuge and have never had a problem. The heater? Worry about that. But not about a proper autotopoff.
urbanrat84
03/08/2015, 04:18 PM
I also prefer to keep things simple. Another option for you is to add calcium chloride (for calcium) and vinegar (for reducing nitrates) to your top off water. You can mix this and store for weeks ahead.
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 05:44 PM
Oh, you do trust things---gravity, daylight, basic demonstrable physics. Your bathroom float valve.
One of the most reliable types of autotopoff is the simple float that you use in your toilet tank. Water falls, it makes a contact that kicks on a pump. Water rises, the float rises, and the pump kicks off. Check out autotopoff.com and avast.com and hydor---the principles are generally the same. Sometimes it's water in a tube, sometimes it's a float, but IT is pretty reliable. I have snails in my sump-fuge and have never had a problem. The heater? Worry about that. But not about a proper autotopoff.
true. I guess my inexperience and recent downfalls are making me hesitant to try new things a9new to me)
i am already sol don the tunze osmolator. ill have ti within a few weeks.
then ill worry about dosing.
which i think the kalkwasser will handle right?
Oldude
03/08/2015, 05:56 PM
I use a Tunze Ozmolator for ATO in my prop system and it works just fine for small systems like this.
FraggledRock
03/08/2015, 08:12 PM
I use a Tunze Ozmolator for ATO in my prop system and it works just fine for small systems like this.
yea i'm def getting that ato kit now
what I just did in preparation for my ATO is i took one of my old petco pumps and I put a pvc adapter for 1/2". i put the pump in a 5 gallon bucket with RODI water. I connected a 6" piece of 1/2" pvc pipe to the adapter and connected the black dishwasher black tube to that output.
i made a hole in the watertight bucket lids and sent the tube through that and put it in the sump about a foot so it wont fall out.
i put the bucket behind the sump under the stand ( i left room when i built the stand in case to hide stuff)
Now i just have to plug in the pump when i need to top off for now til i get my ato kit, at least i know where things will go =)
so at the moment its a MTO (manual) system with a pump and reservoir lol =P
now to order kalkwasser.
would it be a problem if i keep the kalkwasser in the bucket like that without it stirring often??
Mark9
03/10/2015, 08:50 AM
now to order kalkwasser.
would it be a problem if i keep the kalkwasser in the bucket like that without it stirring often??
Do you even need to dose?
Just how many corals do you have?
Regular water changes can keep your numbers in check if you don't have a ton of corals and coralline.
I had alot of corals and didn't need to dose until i got a clam, aka, the calcium sponge.
Once I got the clam, I wasn't up to changing water every couple of days.
Have you tested kh/ca/mg before a WC?
If your consumption is low, just manual dose with some kent tech cb a/b until you get tired of doing it daily.
And what salt you use makes a difference.
Reef crystals work well.
kenpau
03/10/2015, 09:09 AM
Theres a lot of good advice here. There are 2 main points I really did agree with. Firstly if you do want to keep SPS (acros/montis etc) then stability is essential, the first part of this is ensuring salinity is as constant as possible throughout, you may get away with daily manual top offs with softies and LPS but SPS is much less forgiving. I use the SmartATO and its a nice little unit, however I've never heard anything bad about the Tunze so I don't think you can go far wrong with either of them.
Secondly, someone mentioned about not jumping in head first with the dosing, good advice. I'd just do your regular water changes to start with, as you get more coral and it grows out you'll most likely find you need to start dosing but until then I don't think you need to rush into it. I'd spend the money now on decent test kits to accurately monitor your parameters.
noj3333
03/10/2015, 10:24 AM
My 2 cents. Get an Apex JR (or if you can afford it, a full apex neptune). You can find the JR, used, in good condition for like $130. This will give you the ability to control a lot in you tank. If you don't want to spring for the $130 get a digital timer.
Once you have an apex (or digital timer), get a 5 gallon bucket, and some pickling lime/ kalkwasser (it's the same thing, just different names and it's super cheap).
Then get a toms aqua lifter pump, like $20.
Lastly get a float switch from autotopoff.com, get the 2 float switch model. $50
Once you have all this, calculate how much water evaporates from your system. Let's say 1/2 gallon a day is what you find.
Next is some math.
Your 1/2 gallon of water will take the pump roughly 1/7 (one seventh) of an hour to deliver if left on full time. One seventh of an hour is roughly 9 minutes. 9 minutes is 540 seconds. 540 seconds divided by 24 (# of hours in a day) is 22.5 (let's say 23 seconds).
Lastly set you apex to does for say 28 seconds, and then remain off for 59 minutes and 32 seconds. This will repeat the process every hour. There are several safety's in this system. The first being duel float switches, the second being a timer that even if the float switches fail, the timer/apex should keep the water level relatively stable until you can see the issue (high water in the sump).
Lastly, if you get an apex you can have it alert you if the ph gets too high or too low. That would be a sign that there's a kalkwasser issue.
Now I know this may seem like a lot, but in reality it's 4 pieces of equipment.
-Pump
-Auto top off
-Timer/ Apex
-Bucket with water in it
I would bet a lot of money that this system, if properly set up and maintained, would not fail you.
When your testing shows that water changes is not keeping up with you ca/ alk needs, then start adding kalkwasser to your ato (maybe 1/2 teaspoon/ gallon). You just mix it quickly, for maybe 5 seconds and thats it.... some white stuff will settle out, that's fine. As you need more and more ca/ alk then mix in slightly more kalkwasser powder. If your tank keeps growing you'll get to a point where the ato water can't absorb any more kalkwasser... when you get to that point then think about 2 part dosing.
Kalkwasser is a great tool for reefers. It's cheap, it doses both ca and alk at the same time, it raises ph (I really appreciate this), and best of all it's EASY if you have an ato. Just mix it in and your good to go!
noj3333
03/10/2015, 10:32 AM
Oh and, BRS does a great video on this. It's on youtube... it's worth watching.
noj3333
03/10/2015, 10:44 AM
would it be a problem if i keep the kalkwasser in the bucket like that without it stirring often??
You DO NOT want to stir kalkwasser water (unless you have a kalk reactor, totally different set up). The kalkwasser reacts with air and it looses it's potency.
This is how it works.
Put RO/DI water in bucket.
Add kalkwasser
Mix for 5-10 seconds
Put lid on bucket
Let ato run until almost out of water
Repeat
You want to make sure you're pump does not suck up the slurry on the bottom. Just have it suck water maybe 2-3 inches from the bottom.
FraggledRock
03/10/2015, 11:12 AM
You DO NOT want to stir kalkwasser water (unless you have a kalk reactor, totally different set up). The kalkwasser reacts with air and it looses it's potency.
This is how it works.
Put RO/DI water in bucket.
Add kalkwasser
Mix for 5-10 seconds
Put lid on bucket
Let ato run until almost out of water
Repeat
You want to make sure you're pump does not suck up the slurry on the bottom. Just have it suck water maybe 2-3 inches from the bottom.
Thanks for the advice, I have been researching tons!
I am definitely going to get the Tunze ATO and put the Kalk in there. I will have a lid on the reservoir.
I have a digital timer already for my lights, but i would like an apex to not have to touch anything anymore timer wise.
thanks!
noj3333
03/10/2015, 11:20 AM
I'm not sure if the power loss would have a negative impact on the Tunze. When a timer shuts off the Tunze will loose all power, the 'on/off' cycle may not be good for it. Just something to think about.
Jason S
03/10/2015, 12:35 PM
I have been using a home made ATO using cheapo float valves that I got from Home Depot for the last 10 years, and I have had zero issues whatsoever. Consistency is key to SPS, but I have found that sometimes, the simplest solutions work the best. I kalk the top off water, and let it go. My reservoir is nothing more than a 15 gallon tank that someone gave me years ago, and the pump is an aqualifter. It is super easy, and has served me flawlessly for over a decade. I only ever add about 6 or 7 days worth of water to the reservoir, and refill as needed.
FraggledRock
03/10/2015, 03:03 PM
I'm not sure if the power loss would have a negative impact on the Tunze. When a timer shuts off the Tunze will loose all power, the 'on/off' cycle may not be good for it. Just something to think about.
i wasn't going to put the tunze on a timer. the tunze has the switches that turn it on and off, so i would leave it on straight power
FraggledRock
03/10/2015, 03:03 PM
I have been using a home made ATO using cheapo float valves that I got from Home Depot for the last 10 years, and I have had zero issues whatsoever. Consistency is key to SPS, but I have found that sometimes, the simplest solutions work the best. I kalk the top off water, and let it go. My reservoir is nothing more than a 15 gallon tank that someone gave me years ago, and the pump is an aqualifter. It is super easy, and has served me flawlessly for over a decade. I only ever add about 6 or 7 days worth of water to the reservoir, and refill as needed.
i was thinking that a basic float switch would work, but i like the module that i can put it in clear view.
noj3333
03/10/2015, 03:25 PM
i wasn't going to put the tunze on a timer. the tunze has the switches that turn it on and off, so i would leave it on straight power
If you're truly worried about issues with an ATO a timer will add another layer of protection. If it won't affect the lifespan of the ATO then I would definitely do it. The cost of a timer is really cheap and it may save your house and tank (a massive kalkwasser dose would likely kill your tank).
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