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Sk8r
03/10/2015, 12:55 PM
THere is no way to hurry a cycle. There are ways (a cold tank, eg) to slow one down.

Being in too great a hurry to get multiple fish into your new paradise may kill the fish. Quarantine. 4 weeks. Why 4 weeks? Because these fish are generally wildcaught and put through a system in which some fish don't make it. But what they were carrying just hopped over to another fish. Maybe yours. First, buy healthy: sound fins, healthy gills, demonstrated to be eating. Second have your qt set to the incoming salinity and don't acclimate...this is the ONE place where being slow can kill your fish, too. Never acclimate over 30 minutes...going over means exposing your fish to lethal ammonia due to a chemical change in the bag water. But it's best to have the qt set to receive the fish and not having to acclimate at ALL. [Acclimation simply means adjusting the salinity. For any fish a beginner may reasonably deal with, this is enough.]

That 4 weeks can be spent watching your cleanup crew working: they're in there to do one job. Poo. Nice vegetarian poo for your sandbed to work on. And to help the bacteria multiply so they're ready for a fish.

A fish. Not a flock of fishes.

And never add a fish to qt without realizing you are risking the so-far-safe-and-healthy fish. You have to totally reset the 4 week clock.

I do not medicate or treat during that time: if it turns out to be bacterial problems instead of parasitic, it's a different treatment, time is critical, and you have to remove any copper before adding antibiotic. Tank transfer as a precaution is good, however, no problems with finding you have to change feet fast.

Also---disturbing as it may be, look up the following with the word 'marine fish' on the internet and learn what they look like: ich, flukes, mouth fungus, popeye, finrot, and brooklynosis. That way if you see a symptom, you'll not pass it off as just 'weird.'

HTH.

Jason S
03/10/2015, 01:07 PM
Best post I have read all day. Thanks bud. :)

I can not tell you how many times I have told people to just slow down and let nature work.

bat21
03/10/2015, 01:08 PM
As a beginner, I can easily say the most frustrating part of the learning process is the conflicting information I read all over the place. This all sounds like great advice, but I have read multiple times how important a nice long slow acclimation is.

I kinda wish there was just one way to do everything and I could read that book and feel confident. Instead I know all I can do is take a little from here and a little from there to get me by, but the true learning I will do is through my own experience.

It just sucks that mistakes in this hobby = death. (though no death yet in my tank, knock on wood!)

Hitch08
03/10/2015, 01:08 PM
Sk8r - Many thanks for this post and the others like it. I am very early in this process and they really help!

koko maung
03/10/2015, 01:14 PM
Thank you for sharing. When fish or coral is in QT, how often should we feed them? Should we do water change and how much?

GilliganReef
03/10/2015, 01:15 PM
I know I did this with my first tank 10 years ago. Added to many fish and didnt let it cycle. I Ended up with all dead fish at beginning. Did it over again slowly and had pair clowns live for 4 years with me until I donated them to a friend.

Jason S
03/10/2015, 01:18 PM
Bat21, the shipping water began getting loaded with Ammonia the moment it was removed from the tank, and you do not want to leave your fish in there any longer than needed. Try to test a shipping back for ammonia one day if you ever have anything shipped... it is shocking sometimes. For fish, the point to acclimating is to get them used to the salinity and temperature of the tank that they are going in, and if you already have the tank set to the parameters of the water it is in, you are most of the way there already.

GilliganReef
03/10/2015, 01:23 PM
Bat21, the shipping water began getting loaded with Ammonia the moment it was removed from the tank, and you do not want to leave your fish in there any longer than needed. Try to test a shipping back for ammonia one day if you ever have anything shipped... it is shocking sometimes. For fish, the point to acclimating is to get them used to the salinity and temperature of the tank that they are going in, and if you already have the tank set to the parameters of the water it is in, you are most of the way there already.

Now question is does this still apply to fish who been in a bag for less than 20mins coming home from a LFS? Cause I usually only do 10-15 mins float in sump then 30-45 min drip acclimation.

bat21
03/10/2015, 01:30 PM
Now question is does this still apply to fish who been in a bag for less than 20mins coming home from a LFS? Cause I usually only do 10-15 mins float in sump then 30-45 min drip acclimation.

I have also not done the online purchasing yet, only from a LFS 20 mins away. But I will have to soon as the fish I now want do not exist at my LFS. So, I had not considered the shipping aspect. Will certainly take that into account. Thanks

GilliganReef
03/10/2015, 01:35 PM
I have also not done the online purchasing yet, only from a LFS 20 mins away. But I will have to soon as the fish I now want do not exist at my LFS. So, I had not considered the shipping aspect. Will certainly take that into account. Thanks

This is where I am lucky enough to have about 3-5 LFS SW stores in a 20 mile radius from my house. One I usually go for all my fish and coral can order anything livestock I need cheaper then online.

g0rilla
03/10/2015, 01:38 PM
amen

bat21
03/10/2015, 01:41 PM
This is where I am lucky enough to have about 3-5 LFS SW stores in a 20 mile radius from my house. One I usually go for all my fish and coral can order anything livestock I need cheaper then online.

I have a lot also, but really only one that I trust. I like their operation and all of their fish always look really healthy, unlike many other stores I see. They did say they can order fish for me, so perhaps I will look into that.

Mythicalelf
03/10/2015, 02:16 PM
I have a quick question about QT

Do you cycle the QT or just do water changes?

kmbyrnes
03/10/2015, 03:00 PM
Been following Sk8r since before I joined.
She is the voice of mature reason and a great source of information.
I have never had a bad experience taking her advice.
We can all learn from her, and a few of the other wiser reefers here.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Sk8r
03/10/2015, 04:36 PM
Acclimation frequently kills fish, and it takes a particularly heavy toll on very pricey fish---the fish somebody wants to be hyper-careful to treat delicately. No. Call the store, call the shipper, and pre-set your qt (to answer another question, I don't use a cycled qt) to the salinity of the store or shipper. They have a policy which dictates where this is set, and it's an easy answer. Preset it. But TEST it and test the BAg water when you start. Just occasionally somebody made a mistake, and this is when you might be forced into an acclimation...forced, I say, because the salinity is over .002 off from where you were told it would be. If this happens, because you had to open the bag to test, ---the clock has started running the minute that bag was opened: so deduct 3-5 minutes from the 30 you have, and start the kitchen timer. Pour out part of the bag water, and replace it with tank water. Do this every five minutes for 20-25 minutes, measuring salinity at every five minute interval to see where you are. Do everything humanly possible to get that salinity within .002 of the target ---and if at the last you see you're not going to make it, cheat it and try to move it faster, which will do less damage. In an absolute pinch you can do in the ammonia that is happening with Prime or Amquel, but I understand (and check this out for fact) that it screws up the ammonia readings, making it hard to know where you are. It sure would be better than letting the water go bad. ---

I have had no bad luck with just pushing the acclimation to the max within the time limit.

Understand two basic things at work here: when you open a bag, the co2 built up during transit (esp. on shipped fish) escapes. The fish has poo'ed and respired into the water, and the result is ammonium---which is perfectly safe. But when the co2 escapes, the ph of the water drops---and the ammonium in the water starts a chemical change into lethal ammonia. How long and how far shipped, size of the fish, probably water temperature all factor into how fast this happens. But 30 minutes is reckoned to be your safe window before the ammonia has done a number on your fish.

Death may result about 3 days later from organ failure.

Another factoid that is very useful, even critical to know---is that you can DROP salinity real fast on a fish with no damage. [So if you had a topoff accident and kicked your salinity from 1.025 to 1.019, it'll be ok. Unfortunately, raising salinity rapidly on a fish that has had time to adjust to 1.019 or so water---is dangerous, and results in organ damage. I have absolutely nothing but personal experience to say that a .002 jump is ok. I know I have pushed it that far and had no adverse results. I do not know what the limit is---but suggest the .002 as at least a point that's not been risky to cross.

Sk8r
03/11/2015, 11:36 AM
Let me double and triple stress one point: your objective in the no-acclimation method of getting fish into your qt is to prepare your qt to EXACTLY equal their bag water within .002 of salinity...ie, so that there IS no significant difference! Float the sealed bag 15 minutes to equalize the temperature. A little difference there won't hurt much. The salinity is key. And if you open the bag and find out the fish store was wrong about their salinity, you're ok if your qt is lower by a point or two...but if the qt salinity is HIGHER than your bag water you MUST drip acclimate and have that fish safe to put into the qt within 30 minutes.

You will then adjust your qt's salinity slowly (evaporation is usually enough to do it) over the next several weeks to match the [usually higher] salinity of your DT.

That way, at no time has your fish been subjected to a violent UPWARD salinity shift, ie, from lesser to greater salinity. That, with ammonia resulting from too long an acclimation, is a killer.

There is one fish I personally do NOT qt, and that is the mandarin. Because of their diet, they will starve to death during 4 weeks of quarantine. If you are unwilling to take that risk, or are unwilling to make provision to feed them during qt, don't get any dragonet. The saving grace is that they are incredibly slimy, almost like jello, and ich rarely affects them unless the water quality and alkalinity are shot. With that fish, you estimate your risk and when and how to take it: you just should know there is life-and-death tradeoff there before you decide. If a thorough washoff and a day or so of observation will make you feel better, they will survive that, but that's going to be one hungry mandarin by the time it hits your tank.

Does that make sense?