Advice Needed: At a cross-roads with first tank

[apolloreef]

About a year and a half ago I setup a 29gallon sumpless reef tank. The tank has done well overall and most of the inhabitants (coral and fish) have been nice and healthy. I have learned a lot along the way and pieced the tank together myself after my initial research. Over the year and a half that I have had the tank I've upgraded the flow using multiple small pumps, added 2 LED strips to a 2 bulb fixture, and learned a lot about quarantining. I am very proud of the growth of the tank and my knowledge about reef keeping. However, it does have some issues. Despite removing all of the fish inhabitants one year ago into a quarantine tank for 3 months (fallow display) and medicating them (after an ich breakout) and all new arrivals (through quarantine) with cupramine since then, the tank still managed to have latent ich. The ich has had a small resurfacing with a recent fish addition. The rockwork is too extensive to easily remove the fish without tearing the tank apart. In addition, I started with live rock which brought bryopsis with it that has been extremely resistant to all efforts to remove it and covers much of the high light rock surface.


So I am at a bit of a cross-roads. I am trying to decide whether I should double down and try to work out the kinks in this 29 gallon system or look into upgrading into a 40 gallon breeder. Not having a sump in the current setup means no skimmer and no extra water volume to buffer the system. This has lead to a large amount of settled detritus on the rockwork which causes a bit of a dirt storm if I try to move rocks around.


If I upgraded to a 40 gallon tank what equipment would you suggest that I invest in? I would be inclined to re-purpose some of my current equipment into the new display/turn the 29 into a sump. However, I have never set one up and don't know what parts are crucial, where the main costs lie, and what I should make sure to include.


If I stayed with the 29gallon I need to work through the current ich problem which means somehow removing the inhabitants without causing such a disturbance that the inverts/corals are killed in the process. In addition, I am trying to get control of the bryopsis carpet.


I don't have a huge budget, but generally can afford a good option for the necessities (like a good light, etc.). Which way would you lean? How would you accomplish the best outcome for that option? I really love the hobby and my tank inhabitants, but am currently feeling pretty defeated as a bigger problem keeps cropping up each time I correct something. I feel that part of this stems from a rocky/naive start and having an overly simple system.


Thank you for any advice!

[delor]

I'd always pick a larger tank :) Keep you 29 going as you get the larger on set up. Use all the things you have learned to set the new tank up correctly. As much as enjoy a mature stable tank, I've always enjoyed the challenge of setting up a new system.

[mitch91175]

Apolloreef, my personal opinion for you is to get the biggest setup that you can afford (or want to spend). My reasoning for this is that you seem to have found yourself wanting to upgrade to incorporate more inhabitants in your display. You can find really good deals on others selling to get out of the hobby or someone downsizing/up-sizing (with/without equipment).

Regarding the ich outbreak, I think it could be that depending on the number of fish you have, introducing a new fish could have stressed out your fish and caused the ich. I feel that you can never completely get rid of ich in a tank, but you can control it by having good husbantry, i.e. water changes, good parameters, proper feeding, etc. I had ich in my tank and didn't take anything out to quarantine. I kept a close eye on everything until the ich disappeared. I haven't had an ich outbreak since (but I do know that the possibility if there).

You know by now in this hobby that there isn't any quick solution(s) to doing anything. Continue to learn like everyone else and you will be fine. I know your keeping your budget small for your potential next tank but what I would HIGHLY recommend is that you get the best equipment that you can. With really good equipment you possibly will enjoy your experience even more that you do today (less maintenance and more viewing).

[apolloreef]

Thanks for the replies, part of my dilemma is that I only have a relatively small space so the tanks can never really exist at the same time. If I were to make the switch I would need to break down the 29 and incorporate it into the new system. I have a very awesome LFS that has helped me out with a lot and would likely be involved in the process.

If I were to setup a new system I would definitely like to have a sump, spend on a nice single powerhead/wave maker to accomplish high quality flow, and make sure I get a good light fixture that will support any type of coral I might happen to try.

[socalreefer73]

Post a photo of your tank so we can get a better look at your problems and what you're working with...

[delor]

Well, if the goal is to get bigger, then go for the larger tank. However, just dumping you 29's stuff into a bigger tank isn't going to fix any of the existing issues. They will still be there on top of the new tank kinks that are certain to arise.

That doesn't really help much.

[apolloreef]

http://i.imgur.com/VHbfneT.jpg

Link to a picture of the tank from a few weeks ago. You can see a few tufts of bryopsis on the top level. I can pluck/brush 50% of the bryopsis each week, but it always grows back fuller and in more places. It is currently carpeting the entire top level with the SPS and patches along the lower rockwork. It is becoming a pain to keep it from shading parts of the SPS. I ran a high Kent Teach M magnesium for a couple months with good results, but it came back immediately following lowering the levels. I decided to bring the levels back down when my inverts (mostly snails) were croaking from the toxic algae and the anemone seemed unhappy in the higher magnesium. The picture doesn't show off many of the fish, but only a couple seem to be physically showing signs of ich.

[socalreefer73]

Nanos are difficult to handle the balance. . I think a larger tank is best when learning the hobby- dilution is the solution to pollution is the old addage. It sounds to me that your bio load may be high and you may not be pulling enough nutrients out and perhaps adding too many in. . A photo or two would be helpful.

For a 29 gallon, you should only have a few small fish for a reef...

What are your tank parameters? . Ca/Alk/NH3/NO2/NO3/PO3?

[socalreefer73]

It's looking like I'm not seeing a skimmer in your current setup?

[socalreefer73]

I would think about a different type of thermometer... If it breaks, those metal beads will be irretrievable? . Are they not lead?

[apolloreef]

No skimmer, the system is sumpless. Which has lead to a build up of some physical debris. I'm not sure what is in the bottom of the thermometer as far as I know its a standard aquarium one.

If I changed systems I wouldn't be transferring any live materials without medicating or sanitizing.

[socalreefer73]

I have exclusively maintained sub-30 gallon tanks and I think you only need to invest in two things to make your tank pop and be your best fight against nuisance algae.

1. Get a "hang-on-back" skimmer. I have used the aquac remora with a mj1200 powerhead on my tanks with great success. People will debate what types and brands, but I will swear by this one. Also, to make cleaning the mj1200 easy and to minimize downtime on your skimmer, get a second mj1200 if you can swing it. When you need to clean the impeller assembly of calcium buildup by running it in vinegar water, you can just swap them out, clean the one that was in the tank and store it and you're done fiddling with your tank - I always have a few extra powerheads for various things anyway. (plus in the rare case of a permanent pump failure, you're covered and don't have to wait for something to be shipped) - I know you want to buy from your local store, but there is a massive mark-up there.. come prepared with printouts from marinedepot of the prices and see if they can come close to that price, if they want your business as they should.

You see, as is stands now, you're adding nutrients to the tank with feedings and you're not removing anything except with the small amount of LR you have now. The skimmer will skim out DOC's (Dissolved Organic Carbons) which pulls out things before they get into the nitrate cycle and thus your NO3 from building up. (I would put money on it that you have a Nitrate (NO3) load > 10ppm. Also, a skimmer will pull out some detritus. This leads me to my next point..

2. Get more live rock. A good rule of thumb is 2-3 lbs of live rock per gallon of water - more is better. I'm not sure if you're aware, but live rock filters (removes nutrients - NO3) from your water that algae needs to thrive. Nitrate (NO3) is plant fertilizer, btw. The rock has pockets that are devoid of oxygen. Only there can the nitrifying bacteria live that breaks down Nitrates to harmless Nitrogen and Oxygen gasses as part of their metabolism. The only trick is that you're gonna have to get "Cured" live rock that means, if you're not already aware, that is has went through any die-off from shipping and is living and active. This is because your tank is fully stocked and you don't want to force your tank to re-cycle. OR you can be safer adding a piece of cured rock at a time. Your tank janitors will love you for this.

So to sum up, you should be great with your current setup, but add a goot HOB skimmer rated up to 75 gallons - and - get more live rock.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem.aspx?idproduct=AC3111&child=AC3111&gclid=Cj0KEQjwuI-oBRCEi87g0K3O8OoBEiQAb25WAYO67DahNFohRg7jf_2kUo6y-_yDtnqDUaY7zwiqSkEaAmJe8P8HAQ

Like I have said before, I've used this type of small setup ~30gal with a remora and with about 3-4 lbs of live rock per gallon in my tanks and I can say I've never had an algae problem save a few bubble algae here and there, but I actually don't mind the bubble or two of that. You have to do everything you can to get everything you put into the tank out of the tank. Also have a good cleanup crew (snails, hermits, a peppermint shrimp and cleaner shrimp, etc.) And keep extra snail shells so your crabs don't eat up your snails just to try on an ill fitting shell...

Use nature to work for you, not chemicals... On a 30gal tank, you shouldn't need to dose anything except Calcium and Alkalinity and you can get trace elements from a good salt mix in a tank that small. In my routine, I would do large water changes with premixed and heated salt that I let sit in a 5 gallon bucket overnight.

I hope this helps. Keep me posted as to your thoughts and progress. Your tank very much reminds me of my 30gal setup. :lol:

[apolloreef]

I have a really large load of rocks (About 35 lbs) and use chemi-pure elite, and GFO. This has worked to keep my nitrates at 0 and phosphates usually under 0.05-0.02 .

Thanks for the link to the skimmer, the debris has been an issue.

[socalreefer73]

I don't mean to sound standoffish, but reefs in the wild don't have chemipure elite or GFO and if healthy don't have nuisance algae. In my experience, a small tank doesn't need chemical additives. Reefs do have wave action that fractionates the water column and puts foam on the beach, as you may have seen, much in the same way as a skimmer (foam fractionator) and they have huge masses of live rock, much more than the living coral that perches atop them. That's just my observations in my dealings with my tanks.

Also, if you decide on that skimmer, it would suit you well up into a larger tank.

Here is my 20g before I sold it, I hope the links work...
http://s201.photobucket.com/user/princealexi/library/20g%20finnex%20sale

As in all my tanks, I only dosed two part b-ionic and did water changes.

[apolloreef]

I understand where you're coming from and definitely agree that ideally that would be how I would want to control it. Part of that will be getting a skimmer working and I think a strong wave waker will penetrate the rock work and prevent debris far better than my vortex style flow created by the multiple powerheads.

[socalreefer73]

I would get in there with a turkey baster from time to time blast out the rock - it's very effective and fun to watch the tank go nutz trying to feed on it... I like watching how the tank's benthics go wild after the detritus storm it would create...
I feel that you don't need such expensive gadgetry in such a small tank besides good lighting and good skimmer - and I'm almost sure wavemakers aren't designed for a Nano? I've only seen them on 100+ tanks. A buddy of mine was into mega tanks and I would help out whenever I could and he had all of the crazy equipment that goes with that mess. Besides, why shell out all that money for something that would work in a Nano and then possibly have to upgrade when you get into larger tanks, and that sounds like that's your target?
It looks like you already have good powerhead equipment that has to already put out a ton of flow. I read somewhere just to point the powerheads directly at each other from opposing sides and it will create a good deal of random water currents in the tank and that's what I did...

[CStrickland]

A 40b is a great tank, I wish I listened when people told me to get one instead of my 55. That said, I'm not sure it would solve your problems.

Plenty of people run these little tanks skimmerless with great success, but I do think you need a way to get all of the nutrients that you are adding when you feed out of the tank. Just like how we don't really grow that much bigger considering how much food we eat (cause we poop it out :p) the food that goes into the tank doesn't all stay in the fish and coral. The sand and rocks in your display will take up phosphates for a while, but you see a lot of tanks hit 1-2 years and start having nutrient issues like weak SPS (necessitating them being under very high lights, like yours are), and algae. If you think about the natural way, reefs have tides - twice a day the waves flush all that uneaten food and detritus and whetev else out to sea. Also the occaisional storm to realy chuck things around. What is your water change schedule? If that stuff is just building up in your system, it makes sense that it will reach a tipping point eventually.

I don't have a skimmer because I haven't had any issues yet, but my bio loads is low and the little rock I have is fresh cause it's only 5 months old. I control the nutrients by removing detritus from the rocks and sand when I do my weekly 10% water change, it takes about 10 minutes, it's the easiest way I think. I also just added a filter sock to see what it catches. Other people use skimmers, or algea maintenance, or feed a lot less than me, it's up to the reefer and the tank. Maybe the chemipure just isn't enough anymore, I don't think it's meant to be the only means of removal?

You can add more rock for a while, but it will fill up eventually too. Also, 3# per gallon sounds like waaay too much to me, leave room for the fish! Without getting too bogged down in the point at which real estate becomes limiting for nitrifiers, there are plenty of happy tanks that use much less than 1# per G.

The bad new is bryopsis isn't as nutrient limited as other nuisance algaes, that stuff will make you nuts. and ich is a whole nother can of worms. I don't have anything for them that isn't better explained in all the threads about those issues. It sounds like you have had a rough year, and feel like a fresh start would be nice. 40b is a nice tank, so I guess if your going to reset things it's a fine way to go. But I don't think that the extra 10 gallons is going to be what makes a diff in your tank.

[apolloreef]

I do weekly 10 gallon water changes and test the water regularly. The biggest issue I have with maintenance is that there is very little open sand area so my siphon can't reach most of it and the rock work is also hard to get at. I have read up a lot about ich after my first run in and have quarantined everything since. Unfortunately some either slipped through or managed to remain in the fallow tank. My fear is how much stress to the system that removing all the fish will cause.


My biggest reason for wanting to consider a reset would be the chance to start the tank up knowing what I know now and avoiding the pit falls that I am currently experiencing. If a sump fit into the budget I think it would give me the extra water volume and filtration capacity to maintain a very naturally low waste load. In addition, I would know 100% that I at least started ich and algae free. The only reason I would go to the 40 breeder is that I really like the depth it provides and it would still fit in the space I have.


The largest hurdles I have are what equipment I should make sure to have/how to setup a 40g with a sump vs. what type of operation would be required to get my 29g back in tip top shape. The fact that I have a decent amount of coral attached to the rock and a lot of debris in between in makes removing rock to extract fish extremely difficult and I'm worried that the water would be too nasty afterwards.

[Harbour]

Apolloreef,

DO a search on skimmerless tanks. There have been and continue to be a lot of people that run skimmerless. I ran a 55 gal reef for about 12 years or so without any filtration to speak of - no sump, no skimmer, just a small HOB filter that I'd occasionally run carbon etc. thru.

Did I have some algae concerns - yes. But not any more than when I ran my skiimmer before going skimmerless.

Here are a few threads - http://reefcentral.com/forums/search.php?searchid=16708451

Here is my 55 - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900608

But yes there is some algae.

Anyway, my guess is that you can get yours back in the shape you want it and be totally happy with it.

But that's just me. I'm going the other way from a 55 to a 12 long minimalistic.

I will be running my 12 long, skimmerless, sumpless and no HOB to see if I can do it again - HOB will be after water changes fora few hours and to take care of ay outbreaks when the occur.

Harbour

[apolloreef]

Thanks for the input. After researching some of the equipment I'd like to outfit my next tank with, I don't think it is within my budget to do it right. Meaning I need to do something to get my 29 back in shape.

How did you arrange you powerheads to create the best flow possible? Also, did you have any specific method for keeping hard to reach sand/rock clean?

I think I will need to set aside a serious chunk of time so I can prepare some 5 gallon buckets to create a cleaning assembly and remove each rock slowly, clean the rock, and then store it in saltwater for the duration of the job. Hopefully the difference in flow now compared to when the tank was setup will help keep it cleaner. Once the rocks are out I will have to catch the hard to catch fish and move them into quarantine/hospital. There I will treat them with cupramine to cure them of any ich. The tank will have to remain fallow for at least 72 days, but they should be ok in my quarantine even if not ideal for that length of time. During the actual cleaning of the display tank I should be able to temporarily house my coral in a bowl of saltwater and preform a large 50+% water change to remove the water of debris and cloudiness before rearranging the rock and replacing the coral. At this point close monitoring of nutrients and a cleaner crew bump will hopefully be able to get the algae under control while the bioload is low with no fish. I may also be able to optimize some water flow during the cleaning.

I have a deepish sand bed (2-3") is there anything I should or shouldn't do with that during the process? Are there any holes in my plan?

[apolloreef]

I'm thinking of decking the tank out/upgrading the flow pattern and lighting. I have been researching good pumps and really like the vortech mp10. I currently have a 2 bulb T5HO fixture with two 24" LED strips (that provide a nice blue, but I don't know how strong they are) by Ecoxotic. I'm looking into moving to a 4 bulb fixture, does anyone have any suggestions on fixtures/bulb combo's?

[stingeragent]

Get a seahare. That algae will be gone in a week. I introduced some into my tank off a coral shipment and being new put it in the tank. Within 2 months it was literally a forest. I took some pics to my LFS guy whos great and thats what he suggested. He just told me to make sure to bring it back after it's done so it won't starve. I brushed him off and told him I have way more than it could ever eat. Thing cleaned the tank in less than a week. I just upgraded my first tank from a 20gallon long to a 40 breeder and am SOOOOO glad I did. There is so much more space to aquascape things. I was also sumpless on my 20 and this one has a sump. Still gotta get the baffles glued in to get it fully functioning but its looking very promising. I ran my 20L for over a year skimmerless and HOB less and despite typical newbie issues everything has thrived minus a montipora that I lost. As for flow, the problem I had on my 20 is they are so narrow I had rocks butted up against the back glass so there was no way to blow out stuff behind it so it wouldn't settle. With the huge width of this 40, i've got everything the middle. Am gonna set up 3 powerheads. 1 blowing behind the rocks, 1 in front, and the 3rd will just be a filler to put somewhere for corals that need higher flow. Attached is the new 40, 2 days in now. You can see some of that algae still on the rock to the far left. That grew back after I returned the hare and theres a clam buried in there is why I left it. Hasn't spread any in last couple months. As for your cost issue, if you do it rights its honestly not that much more expensive with the 40. I'm gonna have to get a skimmer that will set me back a bit, but I can keep this tank going fine with regular water changes until I can get it. Also in the process of selling my current T5's to upgrade the lights. You can do the sump in parts if you need to. Currently I have the waterlevel just below the teeth of the overflow so that I don't have to have the sump active at the moment but can still get the new tank up and going. I have a eshopps HOB skimmer on my 55g and will being going with there insump for about 160.00. Is quite a bit cheaper than a lot of the others out there, and the HOB in the last year has been flawless. I also had the dillema of having to replace the old tank in the same spot the new tank was gonna go. I got lucky in that i have a beefy computer desk right next to my old stand that was the exact same height. I got a rubbermaid tub and put in 10 gallons of new saltwater and heater to match old tank. I moved over the rocks/coral that was higher in the tank to the tub. Emptied out 60% of tank water into buckets. Tank was light enough to gently slide it onto the desk. Got the old stand out and new one in along with new tank. Put in an additional 15 gallons of new saltwater and the new sand to new tank. Water level was high enough I could move over all the stuff from the tub. Added in about 10 gallons of the old tank water I took out to new tank. I then moved over the rest of the stuff from old tank to new one along with my lone clown. Drained the rest of the water from old tank and dumped it. Waited a few hours and added a few more gallons of new water to new tank and left it overnight. Filled it up to below the overflow the next day and started to get the rocks aquscaped how I wanted. Really the 2 biggest purchases for the bigger tank will be skimmer and lights. I have my quad 30" t5 fixture on 2x4's over the tank currently which is working fine. I'm waiting to get them sold, and also still undecided on what lights I wanna get so my "ghetto" setup is still working in the meantime. All the little misc expenses aren't that bad (2x4's for stand, pvc pipe, glue, screws, overflow, diamond drill bit if you drill yourself, silicone). I also went with pool filter sand on this new setup and its ridiculously cheap. Seeded with a cup of the old sand. You can also get cheap but reliable powerheads on amazon much cheaper than a lot of the name brand stuff. Between my tanks I've got 3 no name ones, and 3 hydors, and the no name ones are better than the hydors IMHO and half the price.

[CStrickland]

I was able to stick my rocks together to get a taller structure that still left a few inches on all sides to vacuum the sand, it also gave me freedom to make a nice open scape that i like which allows a lot of flow between the rocks. theres many way to do this if you are interested. I also put my rocks up on pads which i think helps a lot too, they are the same height as my 1-2" of sand so you cant see them. it's much easier to clean and still looks nice.

extra flow might help somewhat, but unless you are skimming or vacing or cleaning out a filter / sock, it seems like its just blowing the same crud around. gravity will likely win in the end.

maybe look at the rock cooking / curing threads and see if that strikes your fancy? might as well if the tanks empty anyway, i think there are ways to do it with the CuC in the tank.

[apolloreef]

Thanks for the input, what did you guys use to create your rock structures? I used an epoxy from my LFS, but it was a lot of work to get things to hold together.

Also, are there any light fixtures (4xT5HO for a 30" length) that you recommend?

[CStrickland]

I used a bunch of stuff, mine is kinda ghetto ;)
Mostly a diy rock mix between the rocks, then a sort of loose mortar mix slopped across the back and packed into some gaps. Type II Portland cement worked for me without spiking ph. My rocks were already wet so it worked better than other adhesives. Then I used a variety of non-reef safe glues and also some Great Stuff to like stick on little chunks and build out shelfy parts. I'm sure I'll regret that, but I got impatient :)

The cement is really cheap so you can mess around with it a lot. I basically made a rock wall like you do for a garden. I bash it all the time with my vac and its solid. If I were to do it again I would just use the cement and make the lifts from HDPE.

Here's an old pic, the sand is flatter now so the bases are hidden and algaes and stuff cover the risk more so it looks like one piece. Hth

[Jimmyb819]

Best thing I ever did for keeping my tank clean was to go bare bottom. I agree that it doesn't look as good and natural as sand but boy does it make it easy to clean And allows for more flow without causing sand storms. In my 75 I built a spray bar with 2 MJ1200s and some irrigation pipe. It sits at the back of my tank and blows underneath my rockwork (which is on risers) to make sure no detritus collects where I can't see it.

If you are afraid that moving the rock is going to make the water too nasty, that means all that junk is just sitting there rotting and causing problems. You would be better off setting your tank up with a way to remove all the detritus. Usually this is done by siphoning/skimming. If you don't want to go bare bottom (highly recommended) I would see if you could arrange your rocks to facilitate easier siphoning and get a hang on back skimmer as suggested earlier. Every week use a turkey baster to blow all the junk out of your rocks where the skimmer has a chance to remove it and siphon with your water changes.