thread journal of using Ich Shield in DT

[UNCsalt]

So I am going to chronicle my use of NLS Ich Shield. I am using it in my 125 DT that is a FOWLR. I have my PBT in a holding pattern after completing a TTM after he came down with Ich, have him in a 30 gallon storage container. I thought my tank was ich free but was not. Space being an issue I have decided to treat tank with NLS Ich Shield. I am leaving the rock and sand in it, I have turned off the lights all but moonlighting, unplugged the protein skimmer and I unplugged the dual reactor of GFO and carbon. I am not turning on the sump led lights either and removed my microalgae. I have determined that I have about 140 gallons of total water volume (have 40b sump)

I dosed treatment Saturday night and working on day 2 and all seems good, fish eating good. I read also that it will kill off algae and may experience a spike due to that in ammonia, so I am keeping an eye out for that but have not seen any changes as of yet. I plan on doing a 15% WC wedn and will dose back the water taken out.

[Deinonych]

Good luck. I would keep the moonlights off as well, just to be safe.

[UNCsalt]

ok thanks I should say that is only one (single blue) running on the end of the tank so the other ones are off.

[UNCsalt]

Day 4

Nothing really changed, I did empty out my dual reactor of media and cut it back on to add more circualtion in the sump with the skimmer off not getting alot of flow and to run the meds through it as well.
So I am definately seeing a bloom going on and some algae loss, tank getting alittle milky, tested and still looks good.
Going to do a 30 gallon WC tonight, already added back the meds in the 30 gallon container. Thinking going to do a 30 gallon WC about every week till the 21 days are up. So that will put me doing 3 and then a bigger one once the time is up.
Feeding lightly once to twice a day fish all seem to be eating and doing good..

[UNCsalt]

Day 6

Have not seen any ill effects of treatment, all fish are eating normally. LR still looking good, have not noticed a spike in ammonia levels. Did a 30 gallon WC and added back the amount taken out. Not sure if I can tell if the rock and sand are absorbing any of it but I did dose alittle more just in case when i first started. So far all is good..

[UNCsalt]

Day 9

Everything going good as far as I can tell. Eating great and doing fine. I do wish I could test how much medicine ppm are acutally in it. I know you can with copper test kits, I did dose alittle more than it calls for but then I hope I got total volume right and not sure how much rock and sand has absorded. Guess will have to see. I have my PBT still in limbo in holding tank, his TTM has been done for weeks now, not sure if I should still hold him out till the bath treatment is done in DT or go ahead and put him back since the DT is medicated anyway....

[Dmorty217]

If you put the PBT in the CP with the other fish the count should start over at day 1 even though the PB is ich free. The CP doesn't absorb in rock or sand, when I dose meds if sand and rock is present I won't dose less meds than the tank size.

[UNCsalt]

If you put the PBT in the CP with the other fish the count should start over at day 1 even though the PB is ich free. The CP doesn't absorb in rock or sand, when I dose meds if sand and rock is present I won't dose less meds than the tank size.

ahh thanks for the info, I thought I read somewhere or someone told me that the LR will absorb some of it. Ok, I will just keep the PBT in QT till the 21 days are up. I did think of something yesterday, I took out all my chateo because read it will kill all algae, I have my 90 gallon tank with plenty of it in the sump, when its time to get the tank up and running, how would I prepare the chateo from my 90 to my treated 125? So not to transfer anything, all though my 90 over the last year and half never showed any signs of ich,

[Dmorty217]

ahh thanks for the info, I thought I read somewhere or someone told me that the LR will absorb some of it. Ok, I will just keep the PBT in QT till the 21 days are up. I did think of something yesterday, I took out all my chateo because read it will kill all algae, I have my 90 gallon tank with plenty of it in the sump, when its time to get the tank up and running, how would I prepare the chateo from my 90 to my treated 125? So not to transfer anything, all though my 90 over the last year and half never showed any signs of ich,

The 90 would have to be fish less for 73 days to ensure nothing is transferred

[UNCsalt]

The 90 would have to be fish less for 73 days to ensure nothing is transferred

Ok I can understand that so dumb question, where can I get chateo that is parasite free to get my sump restarted??

Thanks for all your input...

[Dmorty217]

Ok I can understand that so dumb question, where can I get chateo that is parasite free to get my sump restarted??

Thanks for all your input...

Great question, there is no way I would trust any from a store or online source. If you know someone that for sure doesn't have ich is about your only option outside of 73 days fish less

[JoelA7]

I'm QTing Chaeto -- fallowing it for 72-90 days.

[UNCsalt]

ok so let me throw this out there, why could you not do a TTM for chateo like you do fish?? Just wondering...

[JoelA7]

UNCsalt - you have to understand the life cycle of the crypt organism. TT works because the feeding stage -- that on the fish -- lasts between 3 and 7 days. Then they make cysts which can last up to 72 days. So for cheato, if any organism is on it that will be a cyst. TT is relevant for fish as the parasites drop off and are disposed of when sterilizing that tank when the fish are moved into a new tank, and so on and so on.

[Dmorty217]

ok so let me throw this out there, why could you not do a TTM for chateo like you do fish?? Just wondering...

Because you would have to dry it out completely to kill the ich off, thus killing the chaeto. Like Joel mentioned the cysts are just sitting on the chaeto waiting for a host to come along

[UNCsalt]

Because you would have to dry it out completely to kill the ich off, thus killing the chaeto. Like Joel mentioned the cysts are just sitting on the chaeto waiting for a host to come along

perfect thanks guys, I think I am going to put some in a 5 gallon bucket with pump, heat and light for that duration. Now because I am not feeding it, what would you recommend for WC?

[Dmorty217]

just put a powerhead and light and be done with it. Water changes aren't necessary really just keep the salinity in check with RO water... Or if you have a clear rubbermaid you could put it in there with a air stone and set it next to a window and let the sun grow the cheato

[UNCsalt]

just put a powerhead and light and be done with it. Water changes aren't necessary really just keep the salinity in check with RO water... Or if you have a clear rubbermaid you could put it in there with a air stone and set it next to a window and let the sun grow the cheato

thanks that would be a better idea, thanks

[UNCsalt]

Day 17

Every thing going smooth, no fish has showed any form of stress, LR alittle cleaner due to the medication, lol... I know that my PBT will be glad to finally go back to his bigger house. Will do a big WC on Sunday night when i return and hook everything back up, protein skimmer, dual reactor and such...

[Mishri]

If you put the PBT in the CP with the other fish the count should start over at day 1 even though the PB is ich free. The CP doesn't absorb in rock or sand, when I dose meds if sand and rock is present I won't dose less meds than the tank size.

I don't understand this line of reasoning. You aren't introducing new ich to the system, the 21 day counter is to ensure you kill off all stages of ich in the existing tank. What would be the purpose of resetting the 21 day counter?

I also dosed CP in my display tank about 10 days ago. Everything going well so far.

[UNCsalt]

Day 22 done..

Ok so got home yesterday evening, did 30% WC and hooked up dual reactor and protein skimmer up and running again. Transferred my PBT back home (finally) and everything looking good. Now to observe and see if this treatment worked like I hope it did...

[JoelA7]

UNCsalt -- I will be very interested in your result. Since you did this in your DT there are encysted organisms which may still be viable. I'm at day 29 and my intent is to treat 72 days.

[Mishri]

Yep, that is an interesting thought. I wonder if the 21 Day recommendation is so all the swimmers and attached are dead then move them to new tank? I've been reading some more on CP and found someone recommend weekly re-application @10ppm for 1 month in a display tank. I've been trying to find some studies on effects on the tomont stage but have been coming up empty... If people are succesful with 3-4 weeks, I would have to assume the tomonts are being killed.

[Mishri]

Ah.. did some digging, most recommend 28 days because tomont stage lasts between 3-28 days, when the water temp is between 76-78. CP kills the trophant and tomites. so you are just waiting for that.

I'm certain that 72 day thing is not something we should expect to ever see from what I've read of people citing the 72 day source, it was kept in the 40's.. At normal aquarium temps other studies found no longer than 28 days, and others found 5-12 days being average... this is where the original 6 week fallow period came from.

[JoelA7]

The difficulty is that there is consistent data - so I have read and seen repeated many times - that 72 days is the required fallow period. Which indicates that the Tomont stage (cyst) can last 70 days. So for the emerging tomites to die from lack of a host you would need another couple of days.

The only way CP would work within less than that time is IF it kills encysted tomites.

[Mishri]

yeah, they are citing a study from Colorni and Burgess 1997, detailed in this paper: Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of ‘white spot disease’ in marine fish: an update

And part of that study included seeing how low of a temp they could be kept and still be viable, during that portion of the study, they observed 72 days at 7 degrees C. (44F). It certainly doesn't hurt to give things more time. But people are also wasting a lot of time and potentially stressing fish for longer than necessary. So.. unless you know of someone who actually read the paper, usually you'll just find someone saying 72 days and listing that paper.

[JoelA7]

This is a pretty comprehensive review of the current science of Cryptocaryon. No cause for optimism at all. Essentially once it's in the DT it may always be there. I'm so bummed. Going to stay the course of 12 weeks and hope...

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

[UNCsalt]

Well update.....

Its been 10 days so far after treatment and knock on wood, no signs of it what so ever. Everone is doing great. I know its early still but time will tell..

[Dmorty217]

Well update.....

Its been 10 days so far after treatment and knock on wood, no signs of it what so ever. Everone is doing great. I know its early still but time will tell..

You should be good to go providing you don't introduce it again into your tank somehow