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View Full Version : How will the new CA mandates affect reefers in the state?


tc2007
04/01/2015, 07:12 PM
Just wondering how will reefing businesses and hobby be affected in CA due to the drought?

PIPSTER
04/02/2015, 08:42 AM
I don't know, but apparently tiny Delta smelt won't suffer any harm. :uhoh3:

The legitimacy of the restrictions are not credible until they can reinstate the Bay Delta Accord.

I'm glad I don't live there. My water comes from an unlimited underground aquifer. :frog:

Time for you guys to desalinate ocean water like the Saudis.

KafudaFish
04/02/2015, 08:53 AM
I don't know, but apparently tiny Delta smelt won't suffer any harm. :uhoh3:

The legitimacy of the restrictions are not credible until they can reinstate the Bay Delta Accord.

I'm glad I don't live there. My water comes from an unlimited underground aquifer. :frog:

Time for you guys to desalinate ocean water like the Saudis.

Just curious but which unlimited aquifer would that be?

kissman
04/02/2015, 08:58 AM
Is Reefing causing cancer in Cali now? There are a lot of products out there that say "can cause cancer in California" or is it more like toys in happy meals are making kids fat? LOL So glad i dont live in Cali

CODE3EMT
04/02/2015, 10:35 AM
I live in california......the central valley to be exact. This state sucks. The politics, taxes, restrictions, welfare, unemployment, budget, and draught are all a thorn in my side. If I could live anywhere it would be TEXAS. The people there in the Lone Star state are awesome, The've really got it together.

PIPSTER
04/02/2015, 10:39 AM
Well, I wasn't born here, but I got here as fast as I could! (You know where).;)

Hurry up and move here!

silentscream
04/03/2015, 10:25 AM
Just wondering how will reefing businesses and hobby be affected in CA due to the drought?

We just know our goal is to reduce by 25%, it will be up to your local water agency to determine how they meet that goal. I think if you do things to improve your RO/DI efficiency and capture your waste water to use for other purposes, thats a good as you can do for your tank. The biggest challenges will be maintaining our emerald green landscapes. Lawns are the biggest target on the hit list.

GreshamH
04/03/2015, 02:36 PM
Just curious but which unlimited aquifer would that be?

Yeah, its quite a feat, that is for sure.

Wells are on route to being regulated as well. That was announced months ago. I'm on a well as well, and I conserve as best I can as no aquifer is unlimited.

woodnaquanut
04/03/2015, 06:25 PM
I live in california......the central valley to be exact. This state sucks. The politics, taxes, restrictions, welfare, unemployment, budget, and draught are all a thorn in my side. If I could live anywhere it would be TEXAS. The people there in the Lone Star state are awesome, The've really got it together.


Why don't you just move! I'm sure you'll be greeted with open arms coming from CA. :facepalm:

Interesting so many CA haters. Or is it just jealousy? :lolspin:

The subject was about water. I think the new mandates will affect many things besides reefing. I expect the cost of food to rise quite a bit.

CuzzA
04/03/2015, 08:30 PM
Well if idiots would stop releasing animals that don't belong here into the wild we here in Florida wouldn't have a problem. Instead we now have reefs being decimated by lionfish and wetlands getting hammered by pythons.

But hey, it's a cool 75 degrees here on my patio, the beer's about 34 and I didn't have to file a "state" income tax return today. All is well in the sunshine state. Maybe do a little fishing in the gulf tomorrow. ;) Cheers.

CODE3EMT
04/03/2015, 09:39 PM
Well, let's see.... because I have family in California, my jobs in California, my wife's jobs in California, my kids private schools in California. Yes, we are talking about water.... and the potential effects it could have on our hobby. Am I jealous? LOL! not in the least bit buddy, not in the least bit. Keep drinking the Kool Aide......... though.
BTW my grass is green, I waste 4 gallons to make 1 gallon of R/O water, I take 30 minute showers without the 2.5 G.P.M. restrictor........ so if that makes me a hater.......guilty as charged.

Your comment was offensive and unproductive. Don't try to insult me or make me look stupid on this forum.... cause I can play this note all day.

CuzzA
04/03/2015, 11:22 PM
Conjecture? You're the one talking about...


What are you talking about. Who are they.

And you can point to one popular incident, but the fact is we find these snakes all over Florida. Not just the Everglades. Why? How? Because people "release" them.

Honestly, I'd rather not even have this discussion. Live where ever you want to live. If you don't live in Florida, what's it matter to you.

BrianD
04/04/2015, 06:42 AM
Some of you need to remember the User Agreement. If you can't make your point without bigotry or politics, you need to stay away from RC while it is still your choice.

BrianD
04/04/2015, 06:43 AM
Warning: If you quote a post that is in violation of our prohibition of religious or political discussion, you will receive the same infraction as the original poster. There is a "report this post" button for a reason.

ca1ore
04/04/2015, 07:57 AM
No drought problems here in CT, but I still attempt to catch as much of my RODI waste water as possible for the garden. Drinking water first, reef tank second, bathing third ..... phew!

Breadman03
04/04/2015, 08:11 AM
We just know our goal is to reduce by 25%, it will be up to your local water agency to determine how they meet that goal. I think if you do things to improve your RO/DI efficiency and capture your waste water to use for other purposes, thats a good as you can do for your tank. The biggest challenges will be maintaining our emerald green landscapes. Lawns are the biggest target on the hit list.

Adding a second membrane to your RO will cut your waste water in half. For me in PA, using around 60-80 gallons per week between top off and water changes, that stands to save me around 140 gallons of waste per week, plus whatever amount of usage there is for my drinking water. With a family of six heavy water drinkers, there would be a measurable amount saved. Hmm. I might just do that without .gov regulations.

When I was in SoCal, I found the amount of water used for irrigation to be insane. The soil there was very sandy and to maintain the grass, massive amounts of water was used. Choosing vegetation that requires less water could make a significant difference.

I don't know the condition of your water supply, but in PA, the infrastructure is very old and has less than 1% replaced annually. That suggests that our oldest pipes will be near 107 when they get replaced. How much water gets wasted by leaky infrastructure?

atreis
04/05/2015, 06:06 AM
Somehow I doubt reef tanks would be affected much (if at all). I suspect the CA folk will have to do without watering their lawns, and in some areas perhaps swimming pools. Those are FAR bigger consumers of water (especially the lawns) than one's aquarium.

Fortunately, I live in a water-rich part of the country. :)

acesq
04/05/2015, 09:13 AM
Residential water use accounts for about 20% of the total water use in California. The agricultural industry uses the rest. (I just learned that it takes one gallon of water per year to grow a single almond!! Multiple that by the number of almonds on a tree and the number of almond trees in the Central Valley and it becomes easier to understand how much water is required for agriculture. Oh, and I'm going to cut back on my almond consumption) The Governor's new mandate puts a higher burden on residential uses (we don't have a lobby group), but all users are going to have to drastically reduce their usage. Fortunately for those of us who live in Los Angeles County, we have had restrictions in place for about a year already that have resulted in a decrease of about 20% of the water use in the county so we only have a little bit more to go to meet the new state requirements. I managed to save without impacting my reef by reducing my landscape watering. I already have drought tolerant landscaping so my plants haven't suffered. I do plan on installing a barrel to capture my RO waste water and use that for landscape irrigation.

woodnaquanut
04/05/2015, 10:59 AM
Content removed by poster.

woodnaquanut
04/05/2015, 11:13 AM
Warning: If you quote a post that is in violation of our prohibition of religious or political discussion, you will receive the same infraction as the original poster. There is a "report this post" button for a reason.

Would you be so kind as to clarify a political post? There seems to be some in this thread. Is there an OK political post?

Without really knowing the interpretation of the rules there is no way we can stay within them.

Raul-7
04/06/2015, 09:52 AM
Does switching the landscape to drought resistant plants affect the value of the home? What about synthetic lawn?

I really don't care much for grass, but if removing reduces the value of the home then I'll think twice.

acesq
04/06/2015, 01:36 PM
IMO no. If it's done right, it will increase the value.

alton
04/06/2015, 03:09 PM
I live in california......the central valley to be exact. This state sucks. The politics, taxes, restrictions, welfare, unemployment, budget, and draught are all a thorn in my side. If I could live anywhere it would be TEXAS. The people there in the Lone Star state are awesome, The've really got it together.

Yea we have a lot of new comers from CA, but guess what we have been rationing water for a long time. My water comes via pipeline 60 miles away, instead of using the Edwards Aquifer which is 10 miles away because of some salamander (Courtesy of the US Government)

alton
04/06/2015, 03:14 PM
Why don't you just move! I'm sure you'll be greeted with open arms coming from CA. :facepalm:

Interesting so many CA haters. Or is it just jealousy? :lolspin:

The subject was about water. I think the new mandates will affect many things besides reefing. I expect the cost of food to rise quite a bit.

I think you are having that problem because of the LA Lakers losing record?

atreis
04/06/2015, 03:50 PM
I think you are having that problem because of the LA Lakers losing record?

Perhaps they're losing out of confusion - they can't find the LA lake.

OrQidz
04/06/2015, 09:30 PM
Well, at least there aren't massive ice and snow storms! Could be worse I guess. RO waste can be repurposed for many things. Get rid of the lawn and focus on your tank :)

acesq
04/07/2015, 08:46 AM
I'm not sure massive ice and snow storms are worse than a ten year drought. I'll take the storms any day. Actually, today would be nice!

woodnaquanut
04/07/2015, 10:15 AM
I think you are having that problem because of the LA Lakers losing record?

No issue here. Changed my fav team to the Dubs, aka Warriors!

Perhaps they're losing out of confusion - they can't find the LA lake.

Don't think that's it. They've been the Lakers ever since they were in Minneapolis. I'll give them credit for staying name loyal unlike the Oklahoma Sonics/ Super Sonics/ Thunder or the New Orleans Hornets/ Pelicans.

eeeeek
04/07/2015, 12:11 PM
Well if idiots would stop releasing animals that don't belong here into the wild we here in Florida wouldn't have a problem. Instead we now have reefs being decimated by lionfish and wetlands getting hammered by pythons.

But hey, it's a cool 75 degrees here on my patio, the beer's about 34 and I didn't have to file a "state" income tax return today. All is well in the sunshine state. Maybe do a little fishing in the gulf tomorrow. ;) Cheers.

I don't really see how that effects the new CA drought mandate.

eeeeek
04/07/2015, 12:12 PM
What I have been trying to figure out is if there's anything I can do with the water from my changes. My habit is to just dump it on my rock RV pad and I really don't know if I can repurpose the dirty saltwater in any way.

Solar Dragon
04/07/2015, 06:04 PM
No issue here. Changed my fav team to the Dubs, aka Warriors!



Don't think that's it. They've been the Lakers ever since they were in Minneapolis. I'll give them credit for staying name loyal unlike the Oklahoma Sonics/ Super Sonics/ Thunder or the New Orleans Hornets/ Pelicans.

The thunder name was a result legal compromise between the franchise/NBA and the city of seattle in fact according to the terms of the deal it awarded the city $45 million to get out of the remaining lease at KeyArena, and could provide an additional $30 million payment to Seattle in 2013 if certain conditions are met. The owners agreed to leave the SuperSonics name, logo and colors in Seattle for a possible future NBA franchise; however, the items would remain the property of the Oklahoma City team along with other "assets," including championship banners and trophies.

the NBA owns the names and intellectual properties of teams and licenses them to owners. The league prohibits owners from giving away their team’s names to anyone other than another owner. which is why the bobcats got renamed to the hornets so fast after the new owner of the newly bought NO hornets got permission to renmane them to the pelicans




http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/seattle-and-oklahoma-city-will-share-the-sonics-franchise-history/




One of my freinds in california said he disconnected every from his septic except the toilets in an effort to save water

CuzzA
04/08/2015, 08:02 PM
I don't really see how that effects the new CA drought mandate.

Sorry eek, you're a little late to the show. Some entire posts were removed/edited by a mod for violating the user agreement. Thus a hiccup and the confusion. I did not bring up Florida to this discussion, only replied to a post that has since been removed.

alton
04/10/2015, 05:19 AM
I guess I should of asked this question earlier what is a water bill for say using 10,000 gallons a month in CA? Mine here is South Texas runs $40 and I use 8,000 gallons on average. My brother who has a awesome landscaped yard bill if $400 a month

woodnaquanut
04/10/2015, 10:42 AM
I guess I should of asked this question earlier what is a water bill for say using 10,000 gallons a month in CA? Mine here is South Texas runs $40 and I use 8,000 gallons on average. My brother who has a awesome landscaped yard bill if $400 a month

Good question. I'd love to hear what other parts of CA are paying.

I don't know what the new rates will be but I'm sure it's going to be higher. It's probably different depending on which water district you are in. My lowest bill, for 3,000 gal is $88. This is during the winter with no landscape watering.

My highest bill was last September for $214 for 21,000 gallons! It is a tiered system so the more you use the more you pay per gallon.

I'm in a suburban house on sewer so there is a sewer fee included in that bill.

Rates will be different depending on delivery costs. Some major cities like San Francisco and Los Angles get their water from hundreds of miles away. My city gets all it's water from within the county.

woodnaquanut
04/10/2015, 10:49 AM
What I have been trying to figure out is if there's anything I can do with the water from my changes. My habit is to just dump it on my rock RV pad and I really don't know if I can repurpose the dirty saltwater in any way.

I don't know any use for it. Some claim you can water landscape but I'd take that with a grain of salt! (couldn't resist the pun, sorry)

I do use the RO/DI waste to top off the pond. The goldfish don't seem to mind. :dance: I usually drain the pond once a year to clean it and reset water to a less mineralize version but this year I'm gonna skip that.

callsign4223
04/10/2015, 01:36 PM
I tried to kill my yard with it (I hate mowing) and it just made my grass grow better. Maybe my phosphates are too high?? :)


I don't know any use for it. Some claim you can water landscape but I'd take that with a grain of salt! (couldn't resist the pun, sorry)

I do use the RO/DI waste to top off the pond. The goldfish don't seem to mind. :dance: I usually drain the pond once a year to clean it and reset water to a less mineralize version but this year I'm gonna skip that.

booyaa138
04/10/2015, 02:30 PM
I guess I should of asked this question earlier what is a water bill for say using 10,000 gallons a month in CA? Mine here is South Texas runs $40 and I use 8,000 gallons on average. My brother who has a awesome landscaped yard bill if $400 a month

My last water bill i used 7480 gallons. My bill was $47.13
This is without watering outside at all. In the summer it's 3 times that.
This is in Orange County(south of LA)

Indymann99
04/13/2015, 07:09 PM
I moved from the SF bay area (San Jose CA) 17 yrs ago. It makes me sick to see the lakes that I used to boat on. :sad1:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn10/Indymann99/Bidwell%20Marina%20-%20California%20drought%20drains%20lakes%20-%20Pictures%20-%20CBS%20News%202015-04-13%2021-06-57_zpsoebhcgod.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/Indymann99/media/Bidwell%20Marina%20-%20California%20drought%20drains%20lakes%20-%20Pictures%20-%20CBS%20News%202015-04-13%2021-06-57_zpsoebhcgod.jpg.html)

OrQidz
04/14/2015, 12:53 AM
Indymann, I moved from the East Bay 20+ years ago too and I thought we had droughts back then....I was in the Oroville area for a wedding this past fall and driving past the reservoirs was pretty scary.

woodnaquanut
04/14/2015, 09:36 AM
I moved from the SF bay area (San Jose CA) 17 yrs ago. It makes me sick to see the lakes that I used to boat on. :sad1:


Lake to me means natural. To be fair I'd call that a reservoir. It is retagged as a Lake on lots of marketing stuff. That reservoir feeds water to the CA Aqueduct, water for LA and farming. It's part of a 400 mile long system. Largest producer and consumer of electricity in CA.

The boating and recreation aspects are, some argue, just the misdirect for the public.

acesq
04/14/2015, 02:46 PM
Lake to me means natural. To be fair I'd call that a reservoir. It is retagged as a Lake on lots of marketing stuff. That reservoir feeds water to the CA Aqueduct, water for LA and farming. It's part of a 400 mile long system. Largest producer and consumer of electricity in CA.



The boating and recreation aspects are, some argue, just the misdirect for the public.


Lake Mead is going be upset that it has been demoted to a reservoir!! As will many other lakes in the west. Jokes aside, the reduced water level in ALL California lakes reservoirs, rivers and streams is sad indeed. Hopefully this winter we get the El Niño we've been predicted to get the last two or three years.

GreshamH
04/14/2015, 05:38 PM
El Nino has been a real thorn in their side... its been coming and going, but never a full event.. from what I have read. A friend of mine is a paleoclimatologist, El Nino is is "go" time.

PIPSTER
04/15/2015, 02:56 PM
Time to re-purpose the swimming pool to become a shark tank. :dance:


Gives an excuse to fill it.:eek1::beer::celeb1:

Or a skatepark. :lol:
http://beachchairscientist.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/skate-and-ray-info0.gif

GreshamH
04/15/2015, 03:20 PM
77 all over again... (to those that know what I'm talking about :lol: )

OrQidz
04/15/2015, 09:46 PM
I remember those "if it's yellow...." days all too well!

Indymann99
04/16/2015, 10:12 AM
Been there, done that..

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2010/10/12/localsonly_39_slide-a724824504a6a72f19a2ed40f89735ecaf3aac9a-s800-c15.jpg

ucdcrew
04/16/2015, 02:21 PM
FWIW - last year my water district enacted water restrictions with fines, amounting to a 25% mandatory reduction. If you used more than 75% of the last years water bill from the same month, the fine started at 150 dollars, and increased from there. There was a clause written in to maintain aquatic life - which includes coral and fish.
On another note, we just had a snow survey at the end of March, and they couldn't ski the course. Had to fly from site to site in a helicopter.

silentscream
04/16/2015, 07:19 PM
FWIW - last year my water district enacted water restrictions with fines, amounting to a 25% mandatory reduction. If you used more than 75% of the last years water bill from the same month, the fine started at 150 dollars, and increased from there. There was a clause written in to maintain aquatic life - which includes coral and fish.
On another note, we just had a snow survey at the end of March, and they couldn't ski the course. Had to fly from site to site in a helicopter.

Curious, where in the motherlode are you?

fortress
04/18/2015, 03:33 PM
I have been using my RODI wastewater for irrigation purpose for a couple of years now. I do not see any evidence this is harmful to my already drought tolerant landscaping. My concern is the amount of water I must make. 2 gallons a day minimum are lost from my system. Warmer days, air conditioning etc. increase that number more than 1-1/2 times. I am interested in reducing the amount of evaporation.

saf1
04/25/2015, 11:01 PM
It is bullsh!t most of what is going on in the state these days. Everyone knows it yet they take the oppertunity to increase rates and fine. Weather in Cali ebbs and flows no pun intended but we have been here before. In fact with the very same governor....

Have to ask the question though has to why we didn't increase capacity when we had the chance or build more reservoirs. Nope. We didn't and as a result a few years back almost busted Folsom damns out takes as we had to release so much too quick....

Not trying to be political but weather is only one tiny piece. Lack of proper planning and general funds on infrastructure is the issue along with environmentalist....

acesq
04/25/2015, 11:25 PM
Build more reservoirs to store what??? Did you notice the level of the existing reservoirs? No rain, no water to store.

Coelli
04/25/2015, 11:53 PM
It rained in LA today! :D And of course all that water ran right into the storm drains and out to the ocean. My community is fighting against the High Speed Rail project which is now proposing an alternate route to what was voted on; the new route would tunnel through the Angeles National Forest and under the Tujunga Wash, which among other things feeds into LA's water supply.

So how about we ditch the HSR, which has changed drastically from the original proposal on the ballot, and also has increased exponentially in cost, take the money, and put it into water retention infrastructure? Apparently even with the reduced amounts of rainfall we've had, enough rain falls on the city to supply over half of what we use. Kind of makes sense to capture it instead of letting it drain to the ocean, doesn't it?

acesq
04/26/2015, 12:26 AM
Except there was no runoff whatsoever from the trace amount of rain. I'm not sure you are considering the cost/benefit of trying to collect more of the very limited amount of rain that we get. Conservation is the only option today. An El Niño next year will go a long way toward fixing the issue, but if climate change means less rain in the long term then conservation and desalinization (which is incredibly costly) are what we will be left with. Water will be an expensive commodity in the Southland.

Coelli
04/26/2015, 12:50 AM
Except there was no runoff whatsoever from the trace amount of rain. I'm not sure you are considering the cost/benefit of trying to collect more of the very limited amount of rain that we get. Conservation is the only option today. An El Niño next year will go a long way toward fixing the issue, but if climate change means less rain in the long term then conservation and desalinization (which is incredibly costly) are what we will be left with. Water will be an expensive commodity in the Southland.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ashoka/2015/04/15/why-does-california-let-billions-of-gallons-of-fresh-water-flow-straight-into-the-ocean/

"Why make freshwater when we could collect the water that falls from the sky? Even on the driest year in recorded history in 2013, it still rained 3.6 inches in Los Angeles. An inch of rainfall in L.A. generates 3.8 billion gallons of runoff, so you’re talking about more than 12 billion gallons of water that could be captured, but that flows within hours down our concrete streets and into the ocean. There’s enough rainwater to be harvested to produce 30-50% of the entire city’s water needs."

I live on a hill and in today's rain, the street was flooded at the bottom; and there was so much water coming down as I was driving on the 118 that between the rain and the water on the road visibility was almost too bad to drive. All of that water is being wasted. All of it.

acesq
04/26/2015, 05:09 AM
From your reference:
"A living case study is Australia, which went from the second largest per-capita water user in the world (behind the U.S.) to one of the most efficient, in large part through a concerted effort to install millions of cisterns across their cities in just about five years. Melbourne was able to get 35% of all its homes to install cisterns. The same thing is possible in Los Angeles and any city in California."
So when are you installing your cistern? And where? And at what cost? I don't see it happening. Even if somehow the government could pay for property owner to install cisterns in 35% of the homes in LA (can you imagine the fight over how to raise the money), the ultimate cost of the water will be very high.

saf1
04/26/2015, 09:08 AM
Build more reservoirs to store what??? Did you notice the level of the existing reservoirs? No rain, no water to store.

Water...

Check Folsom's history in regards to water levels then we'll talk. Last I checked it was a low rain/snow pack for only 4 years, not 100 /sigh. You increase capacity during these years to hold when the snow pack is higher. Otherwise it just rolls on by and enters the river and ocean. Last I checked we had

Look at the reservoir system, when built, and then when the last one was built. You have to hold the water when it is available. Not everything has to be a state or federal emergency to get something done. And when it is done during those times it is 10x more expensive.

Maybe California should have built up our water storage infrastructure rather than wasting billions on the high speed rail to nowhere.

Edit: And don't blame the rice farmers up North. Over the years they have refined their system ten fold over.

silentscream
04/26/2015, 09:08 AM
And how big of a cistern do you need to install on your property? A family of 4 in San Francisco (a city known for its frugal use of water) would use over 6,000 gallons a month. They don't even have yards that they irrigate like we do living in the valley. Households in the Sacramento region can use more like 20,000 gallons in a month. Let's cut those numbers down. The easiest and cheapest solution we have is education of the public for conservation.

Coelli
04/26/2015, 09:29 AM
Or perhaps we divert our storm drains to water treatment facilities? Why the knee-jerk against capturing rainwater? So much doom and gloom!

My family already killed the lawns in front and back; we never watered them after moving in (and they were small to begin with).. We don't water any of the landscaping. Other than not flushing as much and timing showers, there's not much more we can do to conserve water. At some point all households will be there.

It makes no sense to let all of that rainfall just wash away.

acesq, perhaps the money from the HSR could help to defray the cost of cisterns for homes where it makes sense? Or an alternative could be found? But I'm not sure why you're so opposed to rainwater collection.

acesq
04/26/2015, 09:57 AM
No doom and gloom, just being practical. I am all for saving water, limiting agricultural and industrial use (particularly fracking, which uses millions of gallons a year) as much as residential use and improving the infrastructure to better collect, treat and deliver what little water we have. Building private cisterns all over the place I don't see happening. You are to be commended for reducing your water use so much, but drive around the city and see how few have done the same. We need to pick the low hanging fruit before we consider a multi billion dollar rain water collection project. If 35% of the people removed their laws and xeriscaped we would be much better off without spending much at all. If we ripped up the concrete lining of the LA river, much of the wasted runoff would be allowed to percolate into the soil and help recharge the aquifers, but City Hall cant even take that simple step. We aren't going to spend the money to build tens of thousands of cisterns anytime soon.

I get that you don't want HSR and it may be a huge waste of money, but it is so unrelated to the drought, trading it for rainwater collection is a pipe dream. That is either going to happen or not based on the politics, not the drought.

Coelli
04/26/2015, 10:14 AM
No doom and gloom, just being practical. I am all for saving water, limiting agricultural and industrial use (particularly fracking, which uses millions of gallons a year) as much as residential use and improving the infrastructure to better collect, treat and deliver what little water we have. Building private cisterns all over the place I don't see happening. You are to be commended for reducing your water use so much, but drive around the city and see how few have done the same. We need to pick the low hanging fruit before we consider a multi billion dollar rain water collection project. If 35% of the people removed their laws and xeriscaped we would be much better off without spending much at all. If we ripped up the concrete lining of the LA river, much of the wasted runoff would be allowed to percolate into the soil and help recharge the aquifers, but City Hall cant even take that simple step. We aren't going to spend the money to build tens of thousands of cisterns anytime soon.

I get that you don't want HSR and it may be a huge waste of money, but it is so unrelated to the drought, trading it for rainwater collection is a pipe dream. That is either going to happen or not based on the politics, not the drought.

Oh, I get it for sure - I also think injection wells are a huge waste of water. I'm not against the HSR on principle, but tunneling it right through the Tujunga watershed just seems like a really bad idea. I don't think private cisterns is the answer either and a single household surely couldn't provide a household with its annual water needs. However, capturing and diverting the water from storm drains (along with private rain barrels for minimal landscaping needs) could go a LONG way toward increasing our available water. Desalinization is very costly as you mentioned; so why not catch that water before it hits the ocean?

Going to read up on the Melbourne cisterns thing because I have a feeling we're missing some of the details.

By the way, a young couple bought a house on my cul-de-sac about 3 years ago. One of the first things they did was cut down a 40-year-old Brazillian pepper tree and put in a nice green lawn. On a slope. In a neighborhood where cacti and agave grow wild. Yep.

Coelli
04/26/2015, 10:27 AM
Okay, after some digging the cisterns in Melbourne are just big rain barrels, not anything sophisticated or underground (and therefore expensive). The city of LA already has a $100 rain barrel rebate program; not sure if Calabasas has anything similar. But even something like that would go a long way.

Maybe it's because I live on a hill and in an area that floods; whenever it rains there's a visual reinforcement of how much water is actually falling and getting lost to the storm drains; and my back yard abuts a flood control channel/wash, so I see how much water is getting captured by the drains from the streets above us and sent further down. Even a short rainfall like yesterday's can get the water rushing behind my house. Surely capturing the water here is a better alternative than some of the other ones I've heard people propose like piping water from Seattle. :D (Who, as it turns out, is starting to have some water troubles of their own...)

saf1
04/26/2015, 10:50 AM
I get that you don't want HSR and it may be a huge waste of money, but it is so unrelated to the drought, trading it for rainwater collection is a pipe dream. That is either going to happen or not based on the politics, not the drought.

I have to dance around the rules of the board, well, we all do, but the HSR connection is funding. Just like previous propositions such as stem cell research. Return on investment... I guess my point of offence from one of the comments was "what" water. We are not in a perpetual drought in California. It does ebb and flow if you look at the history.

We as California don't get to say the sky is falling yet not do anything about it when we have over abundance of snow and rain. Thus the underlying resevior system that was put in place. You don't have to agree with my opinion but I'd at least like to think you understand the basic idea of common sense and math. Current damns and resevior hold this much capacity + increase in population year over year = an increase in water usage by x mount... In that I mean build up the infrastructure to hold when mother nature provides more. And not let the political system get in the way of developing it.

So the question at hand is really this. Is this an actual problem or one self created by the lobbyist / political system (i.e. think Enron...).

Coelli
04/26/2015, 11:09 AM
I'm pretty sure if the HSR went up on the ballot again, with the actual current budget estimate (the private investors that were supposed to help fund it never appeared), and it was up against a bill improving our water infrastructure instead, the voters would likely choose water. At least, I would hope they would. The amount the HSR will cost is staggering at this point, it's vastly different than originally voted on and that money really is needed elsewhere. I mean, we're talking $100B here (originally $36B when approved). That's a LOT of money.

Other than perhaps paying more for water at the LFS, btw, the increase doesn't affect me much since I only have a 65g tank and buy my water (10 fresh/10 salt per week) from them. How it will affect them with the vast amounts of water they use is another story.

acesq
04/26/2015, 11:11 AM
The answer to the question is there is an actual problem, and it is called climate change. Hopefully next winter we'll get that El Nino and it will be enough to stem the tide a bit, but I do believe that long term (decades+), we need to get used to lower precipitation in the western United States. I am not well enough informed to answer the question whether the existing reservoir/aquifer system in CA is large enough to support the needs of the population if we had sufficient precipitation, but I have read nothing to suggest that it isn't. And looking at the pictures of them at 20% capacity, I don't think building another hole in the ground today is going to help. I do agree with you that we tend to bury our heads in the sand and not make the hard choices, but everything, particularly climate change is so politicized that we can't get a consensus on the basic issue whether we need to spend money to deal with it. If I didn't make it clear, I am all in favor of spending what it takes to ensure we have the water we need, I just disagreed whether it is practical or possible to collect the little rainwater we do get.

saf1
04/26/2015, 11:27 AM
The answer to the question is there is an actual problem, and it is called climate change. Hopefully next winter we'll get that El Nino and it will be enough to stem the tide a bit, but I do believe that long term (decades+), we need to get used to lower precipitation in the western United States. I am not well enough informed to answer the question whether the existing reservoir/aquifer system in CA is large enough to support the needs of the population if we had sufficient precipitation, but I have read nothing to suggest that it isn't. And looking at the pictures of them at 20% capacity, I don't think building another hole in the ground today is going to help. I do agree with you that we tend to bury our heads in the sand and not make the hard choices, but everything, particularly climate change is so politicized that we can't get a consensus on the basic issue whether we need to spend money to deal with it. If I didn't make it clear, I am all in favor of spending what it takes to ensure we have the water we need, I just disagreed whether it is practical or possible to collect the little rainwater we do get.

Climate change, interesting but unproven data debated by scientists world wide. That is a very volatile topic which I will not get into and one for which you and I may agree on. I will say though that the East coast doesn't see it that way with their current weather trend as other areas on the map.

Building infrastructure helps just by the nature of it. You have one cup, it rains during the course of the month, and the cup is full. What the cup doesn't hold it runs off into the various nooks and crannies of the earth. This would be streams, rivers, lakes, ocean, etc. The cup can only hold one cup. Now if we had two cups we just doubled our water storage by 100% and less water went into the nooks and crannies of the earth. Simple math ;) My population comment is that it hasn't remained stagnant since the 30's. So again we look at our cups that hold water vs. population growth and can see clearly that we will use more. Green homes aside...

Now of course we have to get the environmentalist and tax payers on board but it really is that simple. California is a beautiful state but politically volatile and corrupt. Special interest groups only look to their own pocket book and not that of the tax payer. As a tax payer I get upset when we spend general funds on low return on investments.

It is like a opportunity to raise the cost of things people buy every day like lettuce, strawberries, or just food in general. I won't even go into water bills and electricity.

And before anyone even hints at it, this isn't a R or D or L debate, this is a issue for all tax payers and people who live in this state :(

DasCamel
04/26/2015, 01:34 PM
Climate change, interesting but unproven data debated by scientists world wide. That is a very volatile topic which I will not get into and one for which you and I may agree on. I will say though that the East coast doesn't see it that way with their current weather trend as other areas on the map.

Building infrastructure helps just by the nature of it. You have one cup, it rains during the course of the month, and the cup is full. What the cup doesn't hold it runs off into the various nooks and crannies of the earth. This would be streams, rivers, lakes, ocean, etc. The cup can only hold one cup. Now if we had two cups we just doubled our water storage by 100% and less water went into the nooks and crannies of the earth. Simple math ;) My population comment is that it hasn't remained stagnant since the 30's. So again we look at our cups that hold water vs. population growth and can see clearly that we will use more. Green homes aside...

Now of course we have to get the environmentalist and tax payers on board but it really is that simple. California is a beautiful state but politically volatile and corrupt. Special interest groups only look to their own pocket book and not that of the tax payer. As a tax payer I get upset when we spend general funds on low return on investments.

It is like a opportunity to raise the cost of things people buy every day like lettuce, strawberries, or just food in general. I won't even go into water bills and electricity.

And before anyone even hints at it, this isn't a R or D or L debate, this is a issue for all tax payers and people who live in this state :(

In the real scientific community the climate change of the last century and half isn't even a debate anymore. The ignorance of this is outstanding. Check your sources and research the matter. Climate change is real, the longer we bury our heads in the sand, the more we hurt future generations, including the reefs of our planet. Yes, the politics and BS science coming from special interests is killing the world we live in.

PeterHall
04/26/2015, 01:47 PM
From your reference:
"A living case study is Australia, which went from the second largest per-capita water user in the world (behind the U.S.) to one of the most efficient, in large part through a concerted effort to install millions of cisterns across their cities in just about five years. Melbourne was able to get 35% of all its homes to install cisterns. The same thing is possible in Los Angeles and any city in California."
So when are you installing your cistern? And where? And at what cost? I don't see it happening. Even if somehow the government could pay for property owner to install cisterns in 35% of the homes in LA (can you imagine the fight over how to raise the money), the ultimate cost of the water will be very high.

The city of Los Angeles installed a 1.2 million gallon tank to collect runoff in temescal canyon. It is then pumped to the hyperion plant for treatment. Then out to the ocean. The money for digging holes in the ground is there. It just needs to be purposed properly.

saf1
04/26/2015, 02:17 PM
In the real scientific community the climate change of the last century and half isn't even a debate anymore. The ignorance of this is outstanding. Check your sources and research the matter. Climate change is real, the longer we bury our heads in the sand, the more we hurt future generations, including the reefs of our planet. Yes, the politics and BS science coming from special interests is killing the world we live in.

We disagree. That is why I noted: That is a very volatile topic... I mean look at the news reel today and you will see an article published stating a new round of top scientists examining fiddled global warming data. Telegraph. AP also has a article. There are two for you. You want to know the kicker? Those experts on that panel will say something different. Doesn't prove I'm right and you are wrong. Just means people use the data to further their own agenda.

I will agree with you though that the world is changing. Of course. Humans advance and mother nature reels from it. But that shouldn't prevent anyone from say going nuclear (cleanest power source outside the sun) or say increasing water capacity by new damns or even desalination plants here or there.

Just be smart, think long term, and we're good. Oh, wait. That is right, the EPA...

Jason G
04/26/2015, 02:48 PM
I live in the Central Valley of California in the heart of the agricultural lands. I was considering buying an R.O. unit but once the drought hit I decided against it. I myself cut back on watering my 1/2 acre of grass and landscape. Everything is now brown. I have also cut back on buying water from my LFS to help save water.

I have two family members that have R.O. units for their tanks and they use the wastewater for their lawns and plants outside. We are all doing our part here in California to save water, well most of us are. Lol

acesq
04/26/2015, 03:17 PM
In the real scientific community the climate change of the last century and half isn't even a debate anymore. The ignorance of this is outstanding. Check your sources and research the matter. Climate change is real, the longer we bury our heads in the sand, the more we hurt future generations, including the reefs of our planet. Yes, the politics and BS science coming from special interests is killing the world we live in.


Agreed.

alton
04/27/2015, 06:11 AM
Is it global warming or climate change? Or will be something new next week? Whenever a city grows by 10x it is common sense that the temp in the city will increase with 10x more cars, asphalt, concrete, air conditioner compressors and 98 degree heaters walking around. So what are you going to do finally control your population by stopping immigration, limiting families to one child? Good luck! Like someone said it is not worth the argument. Also water and agriculture go hand in hand, we have to eat.

PIPSTER
04/27/2015, 07:54 AM
There's a couple of things that SoCal people are going to have to remember...

1. Most of Socal is a desert.
It always has, is, and always will be a desert. :twitch:

2. There's an awful lot of LA and surrounding areas that get their water from the Colorado River. California spends a fortune in water rights from other upstream states, namely Colorado. If it wasn't for this, Socal would not be particularly habitable, at least not for 15 million+ people. :eek1:

3. The protected Delta Smelt is going to be extinct. All the holding back the water has been in vain, hurting agriculture and worsening the effect of the "drought". (Droughts are kinda normal for a desert...just sayin'.) ;)

4. Just now, they're cranking up some old de-salinators, but in the last 30-40 years, where have they been? :uhoh2:


Well, I just feel so sorry, I mean just this morning I got 1\2 inch of rain. I can't mow my foot tall grass in my yard because it's a swamp with 1\4" standing water. It has rained over a foot of water in 22 of the last 30 days here. :fish1:

woodnaquanut
04/27/2015, 08:45 AM
1. Most of Socal is a desert.
It always has, is, and always will be a desert. :twitch:



You sure about that? 'Always' is a REALLY long time.

Part of the global warming predictions is changing weather patterns. Some places will be hotter, some colder, some wetter, some drier.

Warming also creates more instability - it's all about energy. Storms will be more frequent and stronger.

Any single data point is useless. Just like the Senator waving the snowball around and saying "See, no global warming here". It's all about trends and where they lead.

Glaciers are melting. Fast. Ice that took hundreds if not thousands of years to accumulate has melted in my lifetime. Something is going on.

Yes the climate has changed thru earth's history. What seems different now is the pace of the change.

Coelli
04/27/2015, 09:54 AM
Well, I just feel so sorry, I mean just this morning I got 1\2 inch of rain. I can't mow my foot tall grass in my yard because it's a swamp with 1\4" standing water. It has rained over a foot of water in 22 of the last 30 days here. :fish1:

Really, what do snarky comments like this add to the discussion?

saf1
04/27/2015, 01:46 PM
Really, what do snarky comments like this add to the discussion?

Not snarky, just staying that he has water, and that it rained. Heck, it rained in Northern Cali over the weekend. Driving home today looking over the skyline and I saw some snow still on the Sierra's.

Populations do factor in water consumption as well as infrastructure, and lack of. Look at Nevada with Las Vegas and Lake Mead. This is a classic case of area, weather, population growth, and tourism all balled together. We saw this in Northern Cali and Folsom building. They slowed down home developments due to going back and looking at population growth vs. water.

It is a hostile topic and politically charged. The mandates don't impact the reef hobby no more than they impact pool owners. As a normal citizen you should try and do your part when possible. And if you are using ri/ro water do what you can to use the waste.

Rest is up to each individual, family, and business.

atreis
04/27/2015, 04:10 PM
4. Just now, they're cranking up some old de-salinators, but in the last 30-40 years, where have they been? :uhoh2:


Sitting idle and/or on the drawing board. In a market economy, if you're not paying the true price for something - factoring in the cost of future impacts - it's very hard to get people to pay more (water from de-salination) when the same thing can be had for less (water from the Colorado river).

acesq
04/27/2015, 09:07 PM
Is it global warming or climate change? Or will be something new next week? Whenever a city grows by 10x it is common sense that the temp in the city will increase with 10x more cars, asphalt, concrete, air conditioner compressors and 98 degree heaters walking around. So what are you going to do finally control your population by stopping immigration, limiting families to one child? Good luck! Like someone said it is not worth the argument. Also water and agriculture go hand in hand, we have to eat.


Global warming and climate change are different terms describing the same phenomenon - the earth is warming and that causes changes to the climate. There should be no debate about this and the only reason there is is money. As captive reef keepers we all know the effect additions of CO2 have on our systems. That it is happening on a global scale should not be controversial to us. You seem to understand that paving paradise and putting up a parking lot will contribute to global warming, yet belittle the entire concept. You've confused me.

Your comments about immigration and population control are too offensive to respond to without engaging in a political debate, so I won't. "Control your population by stopping immigration"? Yikes!

saf1
04/27/2015, 10:03 PM
Global warming and climate change are different terms describing the same phenomenon - the earth is warming and that causes changes to the climate. There should be no debate about this and the only reason there is is money. As captive reef keepers we all know the effect additions of CO2 have on our systems. That it is happening on a global scale should not be controversial to us. You seem to understand that paving paradise and putting up a parking lot will contribute to global warming, yet belittle the entire concept. You've confused me.

Your comments about immigration and population control are too offensive to respond to without engaging in a political debate, so I won't. "Control your population by stopping immigration"? Yikes!

You maybe taking those out of context as he asked "what are you going to do"...

I could be wrong though.

acesq
04/27/2015, 11:28 PM
Yeah, I think you're wrong. As you were in your interpretation of the snarky comments. But I commend you for attempting to find a positive connotation in the comments. [emoji3]

alton
04/28/2015, 05:40 AM
You maybe taking those out of context as he asked "what are you going to do"...

I could be wrong though.

You are correct, it is funny how some use parts of a article to start something, they left out the one kid part which like immigration will never happen. We are a country of immigrants and that will never change. If you go back to what scientist said back in the early 70's you will read how they thought at that time the world was cooling?

acesq
04/28/2015, 09:09 AM
You are correct, it is funny how some use parts of a article to start something, they left out the one kid part which like immigration will never happen. We are a country of immigrants and that will never change. If you go back to what scientist said back in the early 70's you will read how they thought at that time the world was cooling?

You continue to confuse the heck out of me. Perhaps its the non-sequitors.

Are you a climate change denier or not? If so, I'm done. I won't debate whether 2+2=4.

On immigration and population control, are you suggesting that if "we" deport all illegal immigrants and pass a law limiting each family to one child, that will solve California's drought?

woodnaquanut
04/28/2015, 09:35 AM
On immigration and population control, are you suggesting that if "we" deport all illegal immigrants and pass a law limiting each family to one child, that will solve California's drought?


You might want to take a breath here. I don't think alton is suggesting any of the above. It was a rhetorical question not advocacy.

saf1
04/28/2015, 09:38 AM
You might want to take a breath here. I don't think alton is suggesting any of the above. It was a rhetorical question not advocacy.

Glad I was not the only one who saw it that way.

Side note - which sort of ties into this thread and of course your sig - please don't increase the price of my wine!!!!!

acesq
04/28/2015, 11:35 AM
You might want to take a breath here. I don't think alton is suggesting any of the above. It was a rhetorical question not advocacy.


Rhetorical questions are by nature loaded with advocacy. I respect you wanting to give Alton the benefit of the doubt. But it was he who went "there". If he did not load the question with advocacy, he can correct the record, in which case I too will give him the benefit of the doubt and we can all return to our normal reef talk! (Breath taken)

booyaa138
04/28/2015, 11:39 AM
I think were getting way off topic of the thread.

acesq
04/28/2015, 11:42 AM
Glad I was not the only one who saw it that way.



Side note - which sort of ties into this thread and of course your sig - please don't increase the price of my wine!!!!!


Rest easy, California wine prices are not based on the cost of production, but on the market's irrational exuberance for good Cabs!!

alton
04/28/2015, 12:24 PM
Californians sorry about your drought situations, except for this year we have been in one for 13 years. The joke around here is we have plenty of oil now just not enough water.

saf1
04/28/2015, 01:06 PM
Californians sorry about your drought situations, except for this year we have been in one for 13 years. The joke around here is we have plenty of oil now just not enough water.

Been a while since I've been to Texas, but at least you guys/gals have a balanced budget and pay no state taxes, correct? Probably still waaay off topic I'm sure but to right the wrong, I still don't see much of an impact outside of RI/RO. Even then you could re-use if you are not already doing so.

Personally speaking this may solidify my use of natural sea water. I already go down to Monterey a couple times a year for diving. Next time I'll just fill up a 25 or so gallon brute and bring it home. Toss in a power head once I get home and it will last for a while.

alton
04/28/2015, 01:50 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/blog/morning-edition/2015/02/fitch-citys-water-development-efforts-should-help.html

davocean
04/29/2015, 02:19 PM
I think were getting way off topic of the thread.

Getting off topic?
This thread was derailed w/ in the first few comments by people that don't even live here or give any value, I had to double check I wasn't in the lounge.:crazy1:

woodnaquanut
04/29/2015, 04:37 PM
I had to double check I wasn't in the lounge.:crazy1:

I thought we WERE in the lounge and had had a couple of rounds! :lolspin:

Of nice fresh spring water, of course. ;)


It seems like conservation is the only reasonable way to go. Desalinization is very expensive, an energy hog and has it's own environmental issues. Increasing storage is also expensive and really wrecks the dammed area and drastically changes the streams below the dam.

Farming, ranching and manufacturing consume more than 90% of the water. Residential use restrictions are a drop in the bucket compared to what might be saved on the farm. Ag needs to step up and improve their water use practices. I'm not suggesting we ban certain crops, just make more efficient use of the water so less is needed.

Even though I think the illogical residential restrictions are politically motivated, we are doing our part. We have no lawn (live in the burbs) and have just finished redoing the front yard with water retaining systems, more hardscape, less planted area and drought tolerant plants. Probably means the next ten years will be extremely wet! :eek1:

davocean
04/29/2015, 06:40 PM
:beer:

Grandlotus
04/29/2015, 08:51 PM
Is Reefing causing cancer in Cali now? There are a lot of products out there that say "can cause cancer in California" or is it more like toys in happy meals are making kids fat? LOL So glad i dont live in Cali

I heard pens make people spell wrong.

booyaa138
04/30/2015, 11:52 AM
I was trying to do my part. I let all my grass die because I wasn't watering. I get a letter from my homeowners association saying that it is against the CC&R's have my yard look that way. They said that I had 10 days to but new grass or I would be fined. So I had to reseed and water everyday for the last month so I wouldn't get fined.
I love this state and grew up here. I wouldn't live anywhere else(expect for Hawaii) but sometimes the political bull really puzzles me

acesq
04/30/2015, 11:55 AM
The state legislature is considering a new law outlawing fines for dead grass. Hopefully that will pass soon and you can tell your HOA to shove it.

booyaa138
04/30/2015, 12:02 PM
The state legislature is considering a new law outlawing fines for dead grass. Hopefully that will pass soon and you can tell your HOA to shove it.

I hope so!
But also we all know how long it takes the state to act on anything.

acesq
04/30/2015, 01:18 PM
Looks like it already happened:

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/sep/18/hoa-drought-lawns-water-ab2104-gonzalez/

How's that for fast action in California!!

Coelli
04/30/2015, 01:56 PM
Looks like it already happened:

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/sep/18/hoa-drought-lawns-water-ab2104-gonzalez/

How's that for fast action in California!!

Woot! Now go tell your HOA to shove it, booyaa :) (Just to be an *** I'd tell them you want reimbursement for the seed and water you had to use, too :P)

booyaa138
04/30/2015, 01:58 PM
That's from Sept. of 2014. I got a letter 2 weeks ago.
I guess they don't know the laws!

saf1
04/30/2015, 02:00 PM
My solution is simple, just split the state...

Hell, most people think the capitol of California is Los Angeles anyway, I think it is for the best. I'll even raise it one and give you San Fransicko. We can draw state lines just as messed up as our districts.

On the home owners association. If that really happened one or two things you could have done. One, tell them to shove it. If they want it green then they can pay your water bill. Plain and simple. And once they don't agree to do that, then kindly remind them that we have all been asked to do what we can to conserve. I don't believe they would do much after that - this is all headline stuff so they are aware.

Edit: You can also give them the office phone of Jerry. Just search for it, it is on Ca.gov. That is what I would do personally. Oh, you want me to have a green lawn? Sure, here. Please call this number and ask to speak to Governor Jerry Brown and get permission...

Coelli
04/30/2015, 02:00 PM
That's from Sept. of 2014. I got a letter 2 weeks ago.

Right. They can't fine you or make you water; we're in a state of emergency. They screwed up, unless your HOA is using recycled water which it probably is not.

"Also on Thursday, Brown signed Senate Bill 992, which prevents HOAs from imposing fines on residents who reduce or stop watering landscaping after the governor has declared a statewide emergency due to drought, as Gov. Brown did in January. The protections do not apply in HOA neighborhoods that use recycled water, according to the bill by Sen. Jim Nielsen, R-Gerber.

That law goes into effect immediately."

GreshamH
05/01/2015, 11:34 AM
You are correct, it is funny how some use parts of a article to start something, they left out the one kid part which like immigration will never happen. We are a country of immigrants and that will never change. If you go back to what scientist said back in the early 70's you will read how they thought at that time the world was cooling?

Newsweek and Time Magazine published looming ice age articles in the 70's, which is where that entirely came from (not from scientific reports). Nearly all scientists, besides the few interviewed by Gwynne (Newsweek editor), did not believe that to be true. You (and a lot of others) got played by the media and you are still saying what they wanted you to in the 70s.

Climate change is agreed upon by the vast majority of scientists, the looming ice age of the 70's cry was not.

billsreef
05/01/2015, 02:12 PM
Newsweek and Time Magazine published looming ice age articles in the 70's, which is where that entirely came from (not from scientific reports). Nearly all scientists, besides the few interviewed by Gwynne (Newsweek editor), did not believe that to be true. You (and a lot of others) got played by the media and you are still saying what they wanted you to in the 70s.

Climate change is agreed upon by the vast majority of scientists, the looming ice age of the 70's cry was not.

There were also a few crackpots in the streets of Manhattan spouting about the coming ice age in the 70's :D The scientific literature on the other hand was talking about warming, even then.

saf1
05/01/2015, 05:39 PM
There were also a few crackpots in the streets of Manhattan spouting about the coming ice age in the 70's :D The scientific literature on the other hand was talking about warming, even then.

And also in the 70's.....drum roll please....oil / fossil fuel would all be used up. Yet here we are.

I'd even wager cars are bigger and heaver.

billsreef
05/01/2015, 05:53 PM
And also in the 70's.....drum roll please....oil / fossil fuel would all be used up. Yet here we are.

I'd even wager cars are bigger and heaver.

Cars have gotten smaller and lighter. Thin sheet metal or fiberglass panels. The old cars had rather thick metal panels and heavy full frames ;)

BTW there is less oil now then there was in the 70's. It doesn't exactly renew on anything resembling a timescale useful to humans, hence the shift away from wells and to extraction from shale and fracking ;)

saf1
05/01/2015, 06:37 PM
Cars have gotten smaller and lighter. Thin sheet metal or fiberglass panels. The old cars had rather thick metal panels and heavy full frames ;)

BTW there is less oil now then there was in the 70's. It doesn't exactly renew on anything resembling a timescale useful to humans, hence the shift away from wells and to extraction from shale and fracking ;)

I don't think the escalades, SUV, or pick up trucks would agree - and we both know that Americas number one selling vehicle is a truck.

Regarding what is available, I have no idea. I'm sure BP and other companies are trying to figure it out and have numbers. There is still so much of this world untapped or explored (Oceanic) that I can only fathom a guess. And just like you said the other technological processes that the EPA or environmentalists block muddies it.

Just split the state already and I'll be happy.

saf1
05/01/2015, 06:39 PM
Cars have gotten smaller and lighter. Thin sheet metal or fiberglass panels. The old cars had rather thick metal panels and heavy full frames ;)

BTW there is less oil now then there was in the 70's. It doesn't exactly renew on anything resembling a timescale useful to humans, hence the shift away from wells and to extraction from shale and fracking ;)

Side note - I was just going to ask you if you dive in California (avatar) but I see you are on the East coast ;) If you haven't, you should come out our way and hit up Monterey (if you haven't). May be a bit cold for you but it is some of the best diving in the world (personal opinion of course).

If you bring your own regs - just make sure they can handle the cold water ;)

billsreef
05/01/2015, 07:11 PM
I don't think the escalades, SUV, or pick up trucks would agree - and we both know that Americas number one selling vehicle is a truck.

Been driving cars and trucks for a few decades now, both old ones and new ones. ;) The new ones are by far lighter weight. They just don't make them as solid as they used too. Just try sitting on the hood of a current SUV or Truck without the hood flexing. My old '70 GMC 3/4 ton you could stand on the hood without it flexing ;)

Side note - I was just going to ask you if you dive in California (avatar) but I see you are on the East coast ;) If you haven't, you should come out our way and hit up Monterey (if you haven't). May be a bit cold for you but it is some of the best diving in the world (personal opinion of course).

If you bring your own regs - just make sure they can handle the cold water ;)

Grew up diving the NE Atlantic coast, right through December with water temps getting into the low 40's...in a wetsuit. At so long as the scallops held out to give me reason to deal with getting wet and putting up with the cold air post dive :D Definitely would go diving out your way if I find myself there. Though after the last few years of living in S. FL I'd probably have to breakdown and use a dry suit :lol:

rssjsb
05/03/2015, 04:28 PM
I'll even raise it one and give you San Fransicko. Keep it classy.

Whippy
05/05/2015, 07:38 PM
Just try sitting on the hood of a current SUV or Truck without the hood flexing. My old '70 GMC 3/4 ton you could stand on the hood without it flexing ;)


I just helped my old man move a 3/4t 84' suburban out of the garage. The hood was super heavy. It took 2 of us to carry and another to mount the bugger. Even though the rockers were rusted, it certainly is a solid ride. They don't make them like they used to.

DasCamel
05/05/2015, 09:40 PM
Getting back on topic, what is the minimal water change schedule recommended. Our area faces 40% cuts....

CuzzA
05/05/2015, 09:50 PM
From an outsider looking in, I think it's safe to say Cali has an over abundance of regulations, but being that it is a coastal state why not just collect water from the Pacific if you live close enough? Or is that regulated too?

DasCamel
05/05/2015, 10:07 PM
From an outsider looking in, I think it's safe to say Cali has an over abundance of regulations, but being that it is a coastal state why not just collect water from the Pacific if you live close enough? Or is that regulated too?

I'm two hours from the coast. Not very practical.

christopherjudd
05/05/2015, 10:30 PM
just got our recent water bill, our household use about 2000 gallons more than the average.. :S

saf1
05/06/2015, 05:45 AM
Getting back on topic, what is the minimal water change schedule recommended. Our area faces 40% cuts....

Don't flush for 1's, flush for 2's. Or reduce it to every other and you have already saved. Reduce shower time, you doubled again. Water lawn, just check sprinklers are good and on lawn, not walkways and adjust time. More water saved. Use a towel 3 times and hang to dry. List goes on.

You are not going to save much by not making soup for dinner or water changes unless you are doing 100 gallons weekly. Oh, if you are using RI/Ro, then reuse the waste for plants.

This isn't no where near as bad as the drought we faced in the 70's no matter how much the media says it is. Back then we added bleach to the toilets and didn't flush until it was overflown...your lawn was dead, and you used the towels for a week...

CuzzA
05/06/2015, 06:37 AM
I'm two hours from the coast. Not very practical.

Yes not for everyone, but I assume, like most states, the population is concentrated on the coast.

woodnaquanut
05/06/2015, 09:16 AM
Yes not for everyone, but I assume, like most states, the population is concentrated on the coast.

Yes it is but the coastal 'towns' are quite large. Someone in LA could easily be an hour from the ocean.

Unless there is saltwater public access like at a public aquarium, it would be very difficult to get water from ocean to car.

I live 30 minutes from a marine lab that has a SW source open to the public. After considering gas, time and effort, it just doesn't make sense to get water from the ocean.

acesq
05/06/2015, 09:39 AM
Don't flush for 1's, flush for 2's. Or reduce it to every other and you have already saved. Reduce shower time, you doubled again. Water lawn, just check sprinklers are good and on lawn, not walkways and adjust time. More water saved. Use a towel 3 times and hang to dry. List goes on.



You are not going to save much by not making soup for dinner or water changes unless you are doing 100 gallons weekly. Oh, if you are using RI/Ro, then reuse the waste for plants.



This isn't no where near as bad as the drought we faced in the 70's no matter how much the media says it is. Back then we added bleach to the toilets and didn't flush until it was overflown...your lawn was dead, and you used the towels for a week...


This drought is actually worse that the mid 70s drought measured by total precipitation over the drought period. AND the population is significantly greater now than in the 70s. The difference is that people aren't taking the same conservation measures that you recall doing in the 70s, which is why residential water use in LA county is down only 8 percent from last year. We need more dead lawns and unflushed toilets!! Lol

Coelli
05/06/2015, 09:53 AM
Wait, you mean some people wash their towels after one use?!

We have the low-flow toilets and I hate them. What's the point of having them use less water per flush if you have to flush them 3 times to actually get everything down?

Addit: as for using ocean water for changes, you're not going to find clean water anywhere near the coast by L.A. without taking a boat pretty far out. The water on the beaches is fine for swimming but I wouldn't put it in my tank or eat anything that lived in it.

DivingTheWorld
05/06/2015, 10:01 AM
Everyone seems to be freaking out from the "new" cuts, but we've been under mandatory rationing for over a year now. You'd be amazed at what a difference just watering your yard twice a week makes, HUGE. We've made a few sensible changes, re-using R/O waste, not running water when washing dishes, bucket in the shower till it warms up, "if it's yellow, let it mellow, if it's brown, flush it down". We've been able to stay under the requirements without letting our yard die. Now if we were in one of the 50% cut areas...

davocean
05/06/2015, 10:04 AM
Actually we do have access in some areas for clean and as good of filtered SW as you could possibly get.
Scripps pier/Birch aquarium allows us to take as much filtered SW as we could possibly want.
This comes from the same filtration system they use on their aquariums at Birch.
Many do use this, just depends on how far you are and fuel cost or which is more practical.
It has to be adjusted slightly for Alk and salinity, but it's definitely a good option.

CuzzA
05/06/2015, 10:24 AM
I think the water is likely cleaner than you think. Obviously you have to use some common sense like don't collect at low tide, after rain (which apparently isn't an issue for you guys these days) or on the weekends, but for the most part there are a lot of people who collect and report a great improvement in the health of their livestock. (This article may explain some of that. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/rs/feature/) In fact my current upgrade is being designed to store a months supply of filtered collected water. So it may take a couple hours once a month. No big deal. My son can play on the beach. After you figure the time and money spent on traveling to a LFS (depending on how close to the water you live) for salt mix and then mixing, it's probably a wash.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2257825

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r3xoZSA_DGo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

davocean
05/06/2015, 10:46 AM
I would never collect SW from a beach here, too many polutants for my main reason, but good lord hauling all them buckets from beach to car/truck would get old fast.
Beach parking is somewhat limited here, you usually have a walk.
Our Scripps pier pump/filter is pull up and fill, and it's fast, you can fill a whole truck bed full of 55's in minutes if your truck can handle it.
Living here all my life, being a surfer/diver of some nearly 40 years, I know what beach water contains, don't want that in my tank, not unfilitered.

davocean
05/06/2015, 11:43 AM
My opinion on OP's question is this, how does this affect reefers here in CA?
Very little.
Real estate here is expensive, from what I see on the boards and in meeting people the vast majority of reefers here seem to be renters, and renters do not have to pay for their own water.
If more landlords had a clue on what we do for WC's aquariums would be banned from most properties I'm sure.
Those that do own their own homes and pay for water have a bit more incentive, and probably landscapes are the first hit in conserving water.
So homeowners and those w/ a conscience or earth friendly seem to be putting most effort into helping w/ this issue, and sadly a great many choose to bury their head in the sand on this issue.

GreshamH
05/06/2015, 01:34 PM
renters don't pay for water? I must have missed that memo at every place I have ever lived in California :lol:

davocean
05/06/2015, 01:45 PM
renters don't pay for water? I must have missed that memo at every place I have ever lived in California :lol:

Landlords cover water and trash unless you have a specific arrangement w/ that landlord.

billsreef
05/06/2015, 01:47 PM
Landlords cover water and trash unless you have a specific arrangement w/ that landlord.

I expect they do the same in CA as on the east coast. Whatever the landlord is covering, is factored into the rent...so renters are still paying, just indirectly. Also a fair bet that any unexpected increases in covered utilities will also result in an rent increase at the end of the year.

davocean
05/06/2015, 01:53 PM
^^That I agree w/
I gave up the need for shampooing my hair years ago, I figure it's a fair trade that I get to keep my reef tank, and I sure hope any landlord sees it the same way when they get that water bill!lol

DivingTheWorld
05/06/2015, 04:12 PM
Of the 8 or so places I rented in Cali over my lifetime, water sewer & garbage were always included. I don't think it's a law though.

davocean
05/06/2015, 06:18 PM
For many years, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) classified California landlords who billed tenants separately for water as sellers of public water. Landlords had to comply with the California Safe Drinking Water Act, which requires water testing and treatment. Since residential landlords have no ability to store or treat drinking water destined for their tenants, they were discouraged from installing submeters and separately billing tenants. In December 2003, the EPA changed its stance. California landlords who bill separately by using submeters are no longer considered water sellers, but only if they use submeters. If a California landlord divides the property’s water bill among residents based on a ratio of floor space, number of occupants, or some other quantitative measure, the landlord will still be considered a seller. The EPA justifies this stubbornness not on the grounds that ratio billing makes the landlord capable of storing, testing, and treating the water, but on the theory that ratio billing does not encourage water conservation to the same extent as submetering. (Applicability of the California Safe Drinking Water Act to Submetered Properties, 68 Fed. Reg. 74,233 (2003).)

acesq
05/06/2015, 07:14 PM
^^ daveocean, isn't that much ado about nothing. Landlords avoid this rule by baking the water cost into the rental rate which is a roundabout way of charging per square foot or per bed/bath anyway. No big deal for the landlord. As for water conservation, multi tenant buildings use much less per occupant than SFRs because there is so much more landscaping around homes.

davocean
05/06/2015, 07:41 PM
yes I get that, but what we have been or are paying has not changed since new mandates, meaning I don't see much of an affect on anyone I know around here as for reefing.

acesq
05/06/2015, 08:27 PM
True, but the majority of reefers don't use much water in the hobby. 10% weekly water changes and topoff for the average tank (90 gal??) amounts to what, 30 -50 gallons of tap water per week. How much can be saved there?

davocean
05/06/2015, 08:38 PM
True, but the majority of reefers don't use much water in the hobby. 10% weekly water changes and topoff for the average tank (90 gal??) amounts to what, 30 -50 gallons of tap water per week. How much can be saved there?

I'm not sure if you read everything written and my lengthy response was in regards to the comment about renters paying for water.
I agree w/ you.
My comment earlier mentioned the only thing I'm seeing affected right now is how people are dealing w/ landscaping and bigger draws, I'm not seeing anything or anyone really affected as reefing goes, at this time anyway.
LFS prices may be adjusting w/ this.

woodnaquanut
05/07/2015, 05:16 PM
Scripps pier/Birch aquarium allows us to take as much filtered SW as we could possibly want.


Good to hear they still do that. When I was a student at UCSD - about a million years ago - we'd get our water from a spigot next to the old aquarium.

saf1
05/07/2015, 07:45 PM
Regarding the natural sea water. I dive a lot in Monterey which is about a 4 hour drive from Sacramento give or take. I've collected 25 or so gallons before and hauled it home. Next time it will be about 150 or so and keep it in the garage.

Bay Area is of course closer but the water just isn't the same. However I may give it a go.

CuzzA
05/07/2015, 08:51 PM
Regarding the natural sea water. I dive a lot in Monterey which is about a 4 hour drive from Sacramento give or take. I've collected 25 or so gallons before and hauled it home. Next time it will be about 150 or so and keep it in the garage.

Bay Area is of course closer but the water just isn't the same. However I may give it a go.

Hell yes. Collect it. Everything I've read about using NSW was positive. If you have a truck or suv, pick up a nice size poly tank for hauling.

In fact I recently read an article that suggested using ground water will actually have more of an impact on rising sea levels than melting polar ice caps. Whether or not it's true, I don't know, but it seems plausible. If we're pulling billions of gallons of water out of the earth, ultimately it ends up in the ocean.

And really, more investment needs to be made in advancing desalination. It just sounds really silly that a coastal state is in a drought meanwhile the big blue Pacific is sitting right there with unlimited water potential.

ace_92101
05/08/2015, 02:00 AM
From an outsider looking in, I think it's safe to say Cali has an over abundance of regulations, but being that it is a coastal state why not just collect water from the Pacific if you live close enough? Or is that regulated too?

Some of us do use ocean water. I've used both Scripps Pier filtered water and water from the beach. For me it's the way to go. That said, wading into very cold water in February isn't for everyone.

saf1
05/08/2015, 06:42 AM
Some of us do use ocean water. I've used both Scripps Pier filtered water and water from the beach. For me it's the way to go. That said, wading into very cold water in February isn't for everyone.

Water is cold for sure. Most divers in the area are using dry suites. Personally I just use a 7mm wet with a 3mm chest heater. Some good cloves and hood I am good for 3 dives off the shore/beach. Boat diving wears on me a bit more because it is earlier in the morning and first dive is deeper. 49 degrees F is cold and that initial leap off the boat when the water enters the suite and forms the layers between the skin and suite - very shocking :)

I've never heard of Scripps Pier though offering that but then again that is too far for me living outside Sacramento. That would be a great options.

CuzzA
05/08/2015, 06:54 AM
Do you guys have any passes that connect to intercostal water ways where you could just drive up and start pumping?

PIPSTER
05/08/2015, 09:43 AM
meanwhile in east TX...

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11208670_10203665977284703_1811897516930816074_n.jpg?oh=3f7d270f8b1da7f2bd3cd633be0058e8&oe=560BFB00
:sad2:
Took me an extra hour to get to work. 6 inches of rain in 4 hours. :mad2:

callsign4223
05/08/2015, 10:19 AM
meanwhile in east TX...


Took me an extra hour to get to work. 6 inches of rain in 4 hours. :mad2:

Here in OKC we had a Flash Flood Emergency.

Tornadoes, OK
Blizzards, OK
Ice Storm, OK
Thunderstorm, OK
Drought, OK
Wildfires, OK
Earthquakes, still getting used to it, but OK
Flash Flood Emergency ?!?!?!?!, WTH do I do with this. I can't hide underground from the tornado cause I'll drown in my storm shelter. http://www.news9.com/story/29004132/police-victim-found-drowned-in-cellar-in-se-okc

woodnaquanut
05/08/2015, 04:51 PM
meanwhile in east TX...

Took me an extra hour to get to work. 6 inches of rain in 4 hours. :mad2:

We need rain out here on the left coast but that's insane! A real frog strangler!

PIPSTER
05/11/2015, 08:02 AM
We need rain out here on the left coast but that's insane! A real frog strangler!

Yeah...it did it again this morning...but luckily a lot earlier, so the floods had receded before the commute to work...not quite as much rain. :beachbum:

moondoggy4
10/25/2015, 03:55 PM
Indymann, I moved from the East Bay 20+ years ago too and I thought we had droughts back then....I was in the Oroville area for a wedding this past fall and driving past the reservoirs was pretty scary.

I was there back in the 90's prior to the " Month of March", the only water touching the dam was a stream. The drought then was war very severe, we do a better job now with storage and ground water but need to do much more. Funny the doom sayers are saying that a strong EL Nino won't help but three weeks after the "MMoM" water was almost going over the dams.

Grandlotus
11/02/2015, 11:30 AM
Is Reefing causing cancer in Cali now? There are a lot of products out there that say "can cause cancer in California" or is it more like toys in happy meals are making kids fat? LOL So glad i dont live in Cali

Amen.

outy
11/15/2015, 01:12 PM
Just wondering how will reefing businesses and hobby be affected in CA due to the drought?


Not at all.

Not much water is used for these tanks in the over all picture.

Average household goes through 100GPD per person.

My 300G total volume tank goes through 20g a week for top off, and I don't do a lot of water changes.

Even of I did 100G a week, its still well within the standard usage.