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View Full Version : Marinepure/bioballs -> nitrate factory ->reef


Coffeeinbed
04/03/2015, 04:03 AM
hi all,

I'm confused about the use of bio-ball/Marinepure in a modern reef. I thought these were a big "no no" because of nitrate production. But then I see them used in refugiums (online videos) for very successful mixed reef tanks (with a heavy fish load).

What gives? ....confused.

kissman
04/03/2015, 04:10 AM
They do work great but bio balls collect detritus and eventually build up to a point they stop working as well and release nutrients back into the system.

Coffeeinbed
04/03/2015, 05:57 AM
eventually build up to a point they stop working

Are you saying keep them clean and they are fine to use?

Such as after a felt sock?

jpa0741
04/03/2015, 06:06 AM
Yes if you keep them clean they work great.

Stackemdeep
04/03/2015, 06:19 AM
Marine Pure is actually a really nice concept. Basically a very porous imitation live rock that has tons of internal space to house our beneficial anaerobic bacteria. Especially nice for those who choose limited rock work in the DT. A huge improvement over those original plastic bio balls.

rich_one
04/03/2015, 07:33 AM
Hmmm... this Marine Pure stuff looks really interesting. Time to take a closer look at these... definitely seems like they are better than bio balls.

-Rich

Dmorty217
04/03/2015, 07:45 AM
I have the marine pure ceramic balls and know of several others with the 8x8x4 blocks of the media and they all love them. Using 25 of the ceramic balls in a 125g QT system I just setup

rich_one
04/03/2015, 07:58 AM
The website says 2 quarts will treat a 200 gallon aquarium. Would it be overkill or any negative affect to use the entire 2 quarts on a 125 gallon tank, in a wet/dry filter? And am I crazy, or does it also seem that putting a few of the bio balls or maybe a small rock sized one in a hang on refugium could be a great way to help keep nitrates down?

-Rich

ReefCowboy
04/03/2015, 08:23 AM
I have a reef tank set up with the 8x8 block for over a year and absolutely love this Marine Pure. It sits in my sump and allows me to scape the DT with a way cleaner tank without the need for lots of live rock. Look into it and you won't be dissappinted

rich_one
04/03/2015, 08:32 AM
That's it... I'm buying a 2 quart size of the ball shaped ones and using most of them in my wet/dry filter instead of bio balls, and then when I add my hang fuge in a month or so, I'll put a few of the remaining balls in there, along with the other stuff I put in there. I am really interested to see how nitrates do with this stuff.

-Rich

mikeatjac
04/03/2015, 08:44 AM
might want to read this first.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453931&highlight=marinepure

rich_one
04/03/2015, 09:21 AM
I still have plenty left to read there... 12 pages long! But I skimmed through a bit of it, and so far, I don't know if have a better understanding of the stuff, or am more confused! Hmmm... Will continue reading... thanks for the link!

-Rich

Coffeeinbed
04/03/2015, 09:22 AM
Sounds like something to look into - save the aluminium issue.


Smart reef keepers are getting smarter and more skilled every day;great news. It wasn't that long ago that you could be tried for witchcraft advocating skimmer-less reefs . Now we have skimmerless success stories.

Since absolute zero nitrates are no longer the goal they once were - I wondered if wet/dry's were getting a second look - a renewed look - for gas exchange and filtering reasons.

ca1ore
04/03/2015, 09:25 AM
It's an interesting topic. I've been around this hobby long enough to recall reading George Smit's articles in 'real time'. Used a bio-ball based tricklev filter for many years. But once you introduce live rock into the equation, bio-balls become unecessary, whether they contribute to nitrate levels or not. The theory I have always read is that because bio-balls surface area for bacteria is all on the external surfaces, as opposed to porous media like rock that offer large amounts of internal surface area, it really only encourages the aerobic bacteria that do a great job if turning nutrients into nitrates. Internal surfaces encourage a broader range of bacteria thus providing some nitrate reduction too. Whether there is any truth to this I cannot say, don't know if any studies have been done or not.

For me personally, even tanks where there was less rock work, I've never had ammonia prices to suggest that my bio filter was inadequate. I've got a 90 FOWLR at the moment with a pretty good fish load and only about 30 lbs of rock and it's fine.

Coffeeinbed
04/03/2015, 09:40 AM
I've got a 90 FOWLR at the moment with a pretty good fish load and only about 30 lbs of rock and it's fine.


The other side of the coin is - is a "renewed look at trickle filters" a solution in search of a problem?

I'm not a chemist but it makes good horse-sense to me that a trickle filter is a easy way to get great gas exchange with little effort. That is, if you don't want wavemaker pumps in the DT.

rich_one
04/03/2015, 10:00 AM
So looking at this, and acknowledging that I'm not by any means all that smart... so this could be a very dumb question... but, why not trickle over rock or rock rubble?

-Rich

d2mini
04/03/2015, 01:40 PM
So looking at this, and acknowledging that I'm not by any means all that smart... so this could be a very dumb question... but, why not trickle over rock or rock rubble?

-Rich

In the sump you can get a lot of detritus settling.

As for marine pure, i have used both the blocks and the balls.
The balls i use in my filter compartment of my IM Fusion 10g tank.
In our bigger sized tanks with sumps, I would use the blocks if possible.
Less chance of larger detritus particles collecting in there and I believe even the folks at marine pure say the blocks work better.

sowildpaul
04/03/2015, 01:49 PM
So looking at this, and acknowledging that I'm not by any means all that smart... so this could be a very dumb question... but, why not trickle over rock or rock rubble?

-Richhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByTzKjqYA2U at 2:02 to show that water comes out of the bottom. I doubt that much water comes out of a rock's bottom like that. In other words, rocks are not very porous like this filter media.

However, Marine Pure spheres are better for nitrification, IMO since it's 1 1/2" so it can get plenty of oxygen around it rather than 4" inch thick block which is primarily designed for denitrification as the website points out.

For example, this discontinued W/D filter system had the thick block on the bottom which was used for denitrification and the top ceramic rocker and plate were for nitrification. http://i.imgur.com/bELggU3.jpg

One college student used to sell his own design. It could hold up to four 1" thick plates in a dry area.http://i.imgur.com/S2Ssjii.jpg

Those things were called cellpore. Marine Pure took over, I believe.

Concerned about high nitrates? There are several ways to reduce it like the block, BP and so on.

thejuggernaut
04/03/2015, 03:17 PM
The large block is big enough that it gets an anoxic (oxygen deprived) layer in the middle. That is where the nitrate consuming bacteria lives. Without an anoxic layer, it can't remove nitrate. Only ammonia and nitrite. If you look at their website, only the 8X8X4 says anything about nitrate removal. That is why. My idea is to stack two of the big blocks into an acrylic box with only the top and bottom open for water to flow through. That way you could get a large anoxic layer in the middle, and maybe consume more nitrates. Although you don't want it to flow through it like the photo above. You just want to put in submerged in the sump and let osmosis diffuse the nutrients and oxygen through the media.

rich_one
04/03/2015, 11:16 PM
Ah... cool... hmm... getting an idea... but I'm gonna think on it a bit... man, the things you learn in this hobby!

-Rich

sowildpaul
04/04/2015, 04:22 AM
The large block is big enough that it gets an anoxic (oxygen deprived) layer in the middle. That is where the nitrate consuming bacteria lives. Without an anoxic layer, it can't remove nitrate. Only ammonia and nitrite. If you look at their website, only the 8X8X4 says anything about nitrate removal. That is why. My idea is to stack two of the big blocks into an acrylic box with only the top and bottom open for water to flow through. That way you could get a large anoxic layer in the middle, and maybe consume more nitrates. Although you don't want it to flow through it like the photo above. You just want to put in submerged in the sump and let osmosis diffuse the nutrients and oxygen through the media.
Oh, sorry for forgetting to mention that the 1" thick plates under drip tray in the second photo were used for nitrification. I didn't mean to suggest to put the blocks in there. Yes, the block has to be fully submerged for denitrification like the one in the first photo.

If I had a set-up with few rocks, I'd use Marine Pure spheres (instead of plastic bioballs) under drip tray for nitrification and biopellets for denitrification.

urbanrat84
04/04/2015, 04:39 AM
Following along

mikeatjac
04/04/2015, 06:12 AM
To support my 120 which had almost no live rock I built a reactor with marine pure bioballs.
It worked great but decided I did not want to risk any metals in my tank so I switched to reef rubble.

I think the blocks are a better option if there is a chance for the bioballs may grind against each other releasing metals.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m260/Mikeatjax/IMG_0754_zps171bd099.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Mikeatjax/media/IMG_0754_zps171bd099.jpg.html)


120 with 15 lbs of live rock.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m260/Mikeatjax/Snapbucket/C8356BC4.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Mikeatjax/media/Snapbucket/C8356BC4.jpg.html)

rich_one
04/04/2015, 10:05 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByTzKjqYA2U at 2:02 to show that water comes out of the bottom. I doubt that much water comes out of a rock's bottom like that. In other words, rocks are not very porous like this filter media.

However, Marine Pure spheres are better for nitrification, IMO since it's 1 1/2" so it can get plenty of oxygen around it rather than 4" inch thick block which is primarily designed for denitrification as the website points out.

For example, this discontinued W/D filter system had the thick block on the bottom which was used for denitrification and the top ceramic rocker and plate were for nitrification. http://i.imgur.com/bELggU3.jpg

One college student used to sell his own design. It could hold up to four 1" thick plates in a dry area.http://i.imgur.com/S2Ssjii.jpg

Those things were called cellpore. Marine Pure took over, I believe.

Concerned about high nitrates? There are several ways to reduce it like the block, BP and so on.

I have an eshopps wd-150cs. What I am thinking is, I can use the spheres (half of the 2 quart package?) where I'd normally put the plastic bio balls, and then place one of the blocks underneath those or maybe in the return pump chamber, fully submerged in water, with the thought being the spheres will do the deal with ammonia and nitrites and the block can deal with nitrates... does that sound right?

-Rich

sowildpaul
04/04/2015, 02:46 PM
I have an eshopps wd-150cs. What I am thinking is, I can use the spheres (half of the 2 quart package?) where I'd normally put the plastic bio balls, and then place one of the blocks underneath those or maybe in the return pump chamber, fully submerged in water, with the thought being the spheres will do the deal with ammonia and nitrites and the block can deal with nitrates... does that sound right?

-RichYes, but the trickle area is too big for only 1-2 quarts of spheres (it's designed for at least 1-2 gallons of plastic bioballs). If you don't mind, go for it. I haven't seen one with a smaller (or narrower) trickle area designed for those spheres yet. You can custom-order or DIY if you want.

johnfallon135
02/01/2016, 12:38 PM
how does bio balls reduce nitrates when i thought only anaerobic bacteria clean can nitrates?