Peacock mantis shrimp died, don't know cause

[Cimmerians]

I had a juvenile peacock mantis shrimp for awhile, perhaps almost two months. He died the other day, and I'm still having trouble figuring out exactly how. I tried to feed him every two to three days, but after his first feeding he almost always rejected it. He went through a tank move to one with more rocks for him, and after that I thought giving him a live chromis might get him eating (I know peacock shrimps are smashers, as he also got a snail he never ate). During the period of no eating lasting the majority of the two months, he manage to kill and (probably) eat two hermit crabs that I left in the tank when I originally cleared it out for him. Within 12 hours of dropping the chromis in there it was gone, and my mantis may have been disturbed since I moved around his rocks to find the body before it taints my water. Couldn't find one, so I assume he ate it. About two days later he died, and I'm suspecting it may have been his lack of molting during the whole stay he had with me. Anyone know of any other causes that may have killed him?

(If this bit of information contributes anything, he had a really dark green color instead of a vibrant emerald green, and I assumed it was due to poor diet)

[Martini5788]

What were you trying to feed him? Sounds like starvation.

[Martini5788]

Also, from my understanding their colors vary greatly, and doesn't mean they are unhealthy, just genetics

[Cimmerians]

I tried feeding him cut bits of frozen shrimp. I know they're picky but he accepted it the first time

[Cimmerians]

I was actually afraid he might have been starving, which is why I gave him the chromis

[BuzzPion]

Sounds like stress and starvation to me. All that moving around and rearranging. Also, poor choice of food. No real variety. A chromis for a smasher?

[Cimmerians]

He had a snail in there that he wouldn't eat

[EI Gringo]

Your food was fine, shrimps, fish, hermits, snails, everything should have been fine, you weren't doing anything wrong and moving his tank probably wouldn't bother it. It maybe needed to molt but couldn't loosen from its shell, or maybe an ammonia spike from the chromis death or even just a poorly cycled (immature) tank.

[Calappidae]

What was it's burrow like? If it's moving rubble, it's trying to close up in preperation of a molt.. if you didn't provide a proper burrow, chances are you denied it of proper molting conditions, delaying the molt, and a failure in having the molt. They will also reject food during this time.

Also color isn't an indication of anything.. stomatopods vary in color depending the depth they were born. The higher they are, usually the more green.. whereas the deeper they are the "reder" they can be.

[Cimmerians]

When he was moved to the new tank with more rocks, he had a nice cave that was hard for me to see into but he spent a lot of time in it. I heard smashers liked rock caves, and he seemed well off in there. When I re arranged the rocks looking for the dead chromis, however, I had to take apart his cave and rearrange his entire set up, which I kinda feel bad for. But I just couldn't have a dead fish rotting in there.
And my mantis didn't move anything around, he was still a juvenile and most of the rocks in there were probably to massive for him to move.

[Cimmerians]

Forgot to add, the tank never had any ammonia issues from what I could detect, but I've been having trouble lower the bad nitrate levels circulating around. Even when I did water changes (20% ones to 40% ones) it still had bad levels.

[Calappidae]

Most of us use PVC pipe for their burrows, usually anything made from rockwork alone isn't good enough. If the burrow isn't perfect, it's faulty.. and if it wasn't a perfect smooth U-shaped burrow that has an area covered in complete darkness, chances are the animal is too stressed out or unable to molt in proper conditions.

I wouldn't blame it on ammonia or nitrates, the worst result of high nitrates would be shell rot.

[Derrick12]

Ur mantis may have buried some of his food and after u went looking for the chromis u may have stirred up the tank to a toxic level
Especially if the thing was in poor health.....u said juvenile so how big was it. U prob would be surprised at how little food the mantis would actually eat at one setting
If was over feed or trying to feed a lot it could have buried food. They do that

[Kharn]

I experienced a lot of gorging and snacking by my mantis shrimp (specifically the smashers) they were always given more food then they would consume but they would never bury it just hold onto it and keep it close slowly picking at it through the day, usually after a good day of picking they would toss it away (never bury it) which made it easy for me to remove the scraps.

They may have small "bellies" but they burn through food FAST, some can go up to a month without food!

I remember reading about their feeding behaviours in the wild...

If the mantis finds/acquires a large meaty food item then it will do for the day and not really come out to seek out more food.

If its only small portions then the mantis was seen entering and exiting its burrow through out the day over half a dozen times but each bring back was a 'small' food item.

It makes sense for such a high energy utilizing animal to burn through food basically as often as they can acquire it, like a V10 car engine sucking down fuel like crazy!

[Martini5788]

I experienced a lot of gorging and snacking by my mantis shrimp (specifically the smashers) they were always given more food then they would consume but they would never bury it just hold onto it and keep it close slowly picking at it through the day, usually after a good day of picking they would toss it away (never bury it) which made it easy for me to remove the scraps.

They may have small "bellies" but they burn through food FAST, some can go up to a month without food!

I remember reading about their feeding behaviours in the wild...

If the mantis finds/acquires a large meaty food item then it will do for the day and not really come out to seek out more food.

If its only small portions then the mantis was seen entering and exiting its burrow through out the day over half a dozen times but each bring back was a 'small' food item.

It makes sense for such a high energy utilizing animal to burn through food basically as often as they can acquire it, like a V10 car engine sucking down fuel like crazy!


This makes a lot of sense to me because my peacock is hungry all the time. I usually add a few shrimp pellets 2x a day in addition to the main meal every other day. The damsel eats the scraps that are tossed out and nothing gets wasted.

OP how often was it eating and what amount? Also what kind of filtration system?

[Cimmerians]

Wait so chances are there's a dead chromis rotting somewhere under that sand?

[Martini5788]

I would say probably not because your mantis was starving. But it's a possibility

[Martini5788]

You are going to have to give more information to let everyone help you. Tank size, filtration, lighting, water parameters, specifics as to feeding

[Kharn]

As martini said the best thing you can do is provide as many details possible many is NEVER too many! :D

Be as descriptive as you can, provide photos if and where you can.

1 image can speak 1000 words... :) It's why I am known to be so photographic a picture can describe what words simply cannot...

[Kharn]

And don't be afraid of admitting to a silly over looked simple mistake no one here will bash you for it and if they do then they do not deserve to be here, we learn more from our mistakes then our success... :)

[Kharn]

My entire journey to date with these animals has been built upon at FIRST failures... :)

I am never afraid to admitt that!

As Tyrion Lannister would say "Know your weakness and wear it like armor, be proud of yourself and your failures then no one may ever use it to harm you!" :D

[Calappidae]

And don't be afraid of admitting to a silly over looked simple mistake no one here will bash you for it and if they do then they do not deserve to be here, we learn more from our mistakes then our success... :)

^this

One thing about this hobby is you're never going to just jump into it, and have success from the start. You're guarenteed a trail and go through error.. after you've learned your lesson you'll know the mistake and (hopefully) never repeat it again.

I still cringe thinking about how my first O. scyllarus turned out and everybody bashed me like an outlaw, despite my lack of knowledge in general at the time.

[Cimmerians]

Thanks everyone, I'm planning on keeping mainly mantis shrimps (but never more than one at a time) for a long time but I've never dealt with the species before. In terms of tank info, I have nano cube filteration, LED lighting, 10 gal tank, shallow sand with tons of rocks ( but his beginning tank was tons of sand with little rocks), I've been feeding (or at least trying) him mostly shrimp kept frozen, but served to him thawed and on a stick. During his stay, the amnonia and nitrite levels were always 0 ppm but a nitrate level at a horrible 160ppm (or around that level) that never went down no matter how many water changes I did. Any contributing info that might be important to include is the fact that it's a mature tank, which use to be a reef before I moved it all to a 24gal tank to give the 10gal to my mantis. My shrimp seemed docile at first, but towards the end of his stay with me he was easily agitated, always punching his feeding stick or punching his rocks if I scooted the tank a bit. If any more info is needed please ask, I want to make sure I could provide my next mantis with the best possible conditions I could give it

[Cimmerians]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/04da41895727cdda671b33fde0270f7b.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/6e4bea076a3d5a62d0fe2bda2f972380.jpg(this rock set up was more scattered when my mantis was in here, but now I'm hosting a chromis, banded coral shrimp, sand starfish, and a group of hermit crabs and snails to clean everything up)
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/76289478ebc373fe72fe8281f0c3938c.jpg sorry for the lighting, but here's what my shrimp looked like

[Cimmerians]

Not sure if it's needed or if anyone wants to see, but I also have a picture of my shrimp dead that I took in case it would help solve the mystery

[Calappidae]

Yeah that burrow isn't very good.. I suggest getting some PVC pipe and building your rockwork around it.

However there is something else more concerning....

I think you have a G. chiragra, not an O. scyllarus. Those eyes are not beady and it's extremely thin for an Odontodactylus. If you show us the body we may be able to identify what it is properly, but it is 100% not an odontodactylus. That lighting messes up the one giveaway which would be dactyl color.

Dump some of this in there (http://www.instantocean.com/Products/aquarium-saltwater-care/salt-water-set-up/bio-spira-saltwater-aquarium-bacteria.aspx), it'll help stabilize the nitrates and keep them at a constant low level. You can use the whole bottle if you need to even, no such thing as overdosing with this stuff.

To clearify what it is, it's nitrifying bacteria.. the stuff we cycle our tanks to develop in our filteration. Dumping this in almost instantly cycles an aquarium.

I dumped about 200g worth in my 125 gallon, fish were in next day and I never once had an issue with ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/

[Cimmerians]

Wait really?? I was told it was a peacock mantis shrimp. Here I'll post almost all clear pictures I have of it
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/1ea8884ccd70e1f6f3695b065427265d.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/dd927d0ae7f109ab4dea75b37493d003.jpg (okay this one is not really clear but better lighting, it was during the tank move)
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/0bbedb8d4159c671fa10a0274301c193.jpg body in his cave
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/847e2e29759a16d8df2d37b9f3f9ee06.jpgoverview size
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/72fa11daba534eb1e6749d8428c88241.jpg trying to dig when I first got him

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/03/a1680e71497b54f9651b0811ebe413e7.jpg and lastly, the body taken out of the water and laid on a towel

[Calappidae]

Yep that's Gonodactylus Chiragra, not a peacock (O. scyllarus)

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/species.php?name=g_chiragra

#1 life lesson to mantis shrimp, LFS and online suppliers who get their IDs correct are one in a million.. seriously it's sad how many LFS label the wrong species of stomatopod as peacocks.. even if it's extremely obvious that it's not one.

Anyway, that burrow is definitly not suitable, you can clearly see the stomatopod in it, which is a bad thing. This means the burrow isn't dark enough for the animal. It is very exposed and the burrow doesn't have a narrow passage for it to cling too and rotate with ease. Again, I would seriously consider PVC.

[Cimmerians]

My, and this whole time I was thinking I had a peacock. Do you happen to know of any way to make sure a mantis shrimp is a peacock? Also, I was mildly considering getting a slasher this time around, And I was doing some research into zebras (Lysiosquillina maculata). Heard they like nice deep sand burrows, but would the PVC pipe work well with them as well?

[Cimmerians]

This might be a bad question, but I also thought if the fin like things by its head were an orangish color, and if it's skin was green, it was a peacock. Not true though, right?

[Calappidae]

Not necessarly true, O. scyllarus can have a redish ton to their body color. It depends on where the specimen was born, deeper usually means reder. Most we see are green in coloration due to being higher and easier to collect.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROGwNnMUBzmiKuNmNVEg9QNc0VDDy9OA0n_uqq16u5iveLWSGxhg

Alot of stomatopods have Orange/yellow antennal scales, however one thing that distinguishes O. scyllarus's from the others, is that the bottom side of the antennal scales are green (like you see in your avatar) and the top half is yellow.

Notice the vibrant yellow markings from the top view in comparison to the green markings on the lower view in your avatar.
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/519fc518e4b046d94a9788ad/t/54b420dde4b089270eda3260/1421091044750/

Also the Black half of the antennal scale seperates it from O. havanensis, which only has a red dot, and a pink half.

O havanensis: (Don't confuse these for an O. scyllarus! They look almost exactly like them too!)
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/images/o_havanensis3.jpg

Another characteristic that I don't think any other species, Odontodactylus or not, has is the black, flourecent blue outlined, telson "fins".

http://web.qbi.uq.edu.au/ecovis/Images/stomatopods/Colour%20signal.jpg

Most gonodactylids (like G. chiragra) and neogonodactylids have single colored more "feathery" like "fins".

G. Glabrous Telson: (Lacks the middle tooth on the upper telson which distinguishes it from G. graphurus, an otherwise twin.)
http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp273/slickcg33/IMG_1288.jpg

[EI Gringo]

Yeah that's a chiragra all day round :P as soon as I saw the first picture you posted. the first thing you must find out in this hobby, specifically stomatopods that is, the "professionals" are just guessing and they'll either call a mantis a peacock or a zebra. I've seen lysiosquillidae labelled as gonodactylus, gonodactylus as peacock, pseudosquillids as peacocks, anything else named "common" mantis... You need to post a picture on here if you want a proper ID, many of us can identify the majority of mantis but there's Kharn and Roy will almost always get you an answer.

[Cimmerians]

There's way more I need to learn about mantis shrimps than I originally thought, as I tried to do as much research as possible before getting what I though was a peacock. Since everyone on here seems to be true experts on this, do you guys think I should try and get another peacock (or at the very least a smasher that looks very similar, as I've proved to be a poor mantis shrimp identifier) or a zebra? I know either one will need a complete tank makeover, as I'll probably have to stack my tank up with sand for a zebra or buy a PVC pipe for a peacock. Also, if anyone happens to know, is there an estimate percent on how many mantis shrimps are falsely labeled as peacocks?

[Calappidae]

If you know how to properly ID them you can refrain from purchasing it until the LFS gets it right. Vocal minority is the main reasoning behind LFS's lack of education.

The most common species to get falsely labeled as O. scyllarus is G. ternatensis, which is actually destructive to reefs when collected due to them living in live branching corals, and the coral being smashed inorder to get them. Please do not purchase, we refrain from talking about them unless it's for identifaction purposes or awaring others of their origin.

You can find details on identifying G. ternatensis here. (http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/species.php?name=g_ternatensis) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell the difference as long as you know what you're looking for. Most notably the red segmental bands and orange meral spots on the dactyls.

You can try either species, O. scyllarus or L. maculata (zebra), however.. you're flat out going to need an upgrade. For one, any biocube is way too small for an O. scyllarus or L. maculata..

O. scyllarus shouldn't be kept in anything smaller than a 40g breeder (dimenstion wise, if you can find a 36x12 surface area, that'll work too).

L. maculata doesn't have a necesarry tank size.. however they need a veritcle sandbed 1.5 times the length of the animal... which at full grown, is a 22.5 inch tall sandbed.. you can use PVC for that too, however they still need a sandbed to close their burrow up with, not to mention upgrading the PVC as they age can be annoying, especially when it's not a requirement. You're just going to need a really really tall tank to say the least.. I've been eyeing on a 15 gallon tall column tank I've been waiting to go on sale for then I decided to have a go with one, should be large enough.

In regards to how many LFS get it wrong, it varies. If yours is dumb enough to confuse G. chiragra for O. scyllarus then they'll probably get it wrong 100% of the time... it's a matter of what they recieve from their suppliers.

Usually LFS just slap the word peacock on any mantis shrimp they get in.. even if they're aware it's not the same thing as O. scyllarus.

But of course there is always the option of having a smaller species rather than either two. There is alot of variety in stomatopods for hobbyiest.

As far as research goes, skin through some of the more recent threads of this forum and be sure to read through roy's list, he the world's top stomatopodologist (is that a word?) and wrote all the identifaction information and housing requires in his list (http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/index.html#directory).

[Kharn]

Calappidae - Please give credit when using my photos.

It would be nice if you provided credit for each photo you use that isn't yours...

Some of us work hard on our stuff and don't like seeing it without due credit or permission first.

[Calappidae]

Calappidae - Please give credit when using my photos.

It would be nice if you provided credit for each photo you use that isn't yours...

Some of us work hard on our stuff and don't like seeing it without due credit or permission first.

Kharn, which photo was yours? I do not take credit for any photos I use in my post, rather I use what I find pubicly posted, particularly what comes up in a random search.

I have PM'd members prior to using their photos posted on the thread (I've gotten islandoftiki's permission to use his "boy parts" image for example). However in this case I have no clear identifaction of their original owners (other than some which are obviously roy's like the O. havanensis.). I apologize if there's a mixup here, however I am indeed not intentionally causing an infringement with copyright (or abusing free use of copyright).

I will PM a moderator to edit any photos of yours I used in my post that you would like taken down, I'm not that kind of guy. Just clearfy which one it is as I'm not sure.

[Kharn]

Kharn, which photo was yours? I do not take credit for any photos I use in my post, rather I use what I find pubicly posted, particularly what comes up in a random search.

I have PM'd members prior to using their photos posted on the thread (I've gotten islandoftiki's permission to use his "boy parts" image for example). However in this case I have no clear identifaction of their original owners (other than some which are obviously roy's like the O. havanensis.). I apologize if there's a mixup here, however I am indeed not intentionally causing an infringement with copyright (or abusing free use of copyright).

I will PM a moderator to edit any photos of yours I used in my post that you would like taken down, I'm not that kind of guy. Just clearfy which one it is as I'm not sure.

What would be polite is to link the website if you don't know who the photo was taken by (copy and paste).

The first photo in that post is in fact mine.

But this goes for ALL photos you take from anywhere (and videos) always link the source above or below the photo directly and if you know who owns it then give them credit else things can turn bad fast cause I know I am becoming a lot more protective of my work which also means I will hunt down those that take my images/videos without my permission and punish "heavily" (specifically if their profiting somehow, then I will show no mercy...).

Food for thought. :)

[Calappidae]

What would be polite is to link the website if you don't know who the photo was taken by (copy and paste).


Wouldn't pressing quote and looking at the URL inside the image tags ensensitionally be the samething though? Linking these things isn't exactly the solution since the only property I get is the URL to the image itself, rather than saving it.. uploading it on a image format creater (like imgur) and then throwing the link willy nilly with 0 methods of backtracking.

The way I encounter these photos is Google search->Images->click on photo->properdies show up, and nothing else including the site or article it was originally posted on.

However I'll try to be more cautious of which photos I pick, I'm fairly certain which are and aren't roy's, and islandoftiki's to a lesser extent however yours I'm not entirely sure, especially since in your thread half your images were deleted and the only ones I'm aware of is the newer ones of the last system.

If there is ever and issue just PM me and I'll resolve it.

[Kharn]

There is always something you can put above or below the photo as the source regardless of where you found it and regardless of how you personally perceive it....it will always be POLITE to put the source & if possible credit the person who owns/made the photo/video.

Every single photo/video has a source whether it the web address or the original owners trademark/signature/name etc.

Fore example.


"Roy's List of Stomatopods for the Home Aquarium" - http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/images/o_scyllarus2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/W4Z4yEsl.jpg

[EI Gringo]

The word is stomatopodiatrist btw :P like I've said, you can never rely on supplier IDs, get a picture before it comes or when it arrives and post it on here, there are hundreds of species of stomatopods and because of their generic labels (gonodactylus or squilla species) and their common availability as hitchhikers you literally could end up with any species. Even the experts on here don't always get it right and I certainly don't claim to be one :L as for ternatensis... Touchy subject that one... If you order a peacock and a terny turns up there isn't much you can do about it but you should never persue one because you are supporting the demand of them which is frowned upon. If one ends up accidentally at your lfs then the damage is done to the corals already and you're only adding to the supply of peacocks but inform your LFS that their supplier is causing environmental damage and that they should be inspected, I would also then avoid that supplier for the peacock if you still want one.

[EI Gringo]

And post the supplier on here too so we do not use them in the future.

[lawfuanda]

What would be polite is to link the website if you don't know who the photo was taken by (copy and paste).

The first photo in that post is in fact mine.

But this goes for ALL photos you take from anywhere (and videos) always link the source above or below the photo directly and if you know who owns it then give them credit else things can turn bad fast cause I know I am becoming a lot more protective of my work which also means I will hunt down those that take my images/videos without my permission and punish "heavily" (specifically if their profiting somehow, then I will show no mercy...).

Food for thought. :)

food for thought, don't upload pictures to the internet without a watermark or with the ability for them to rip it without a screenshot if you want to be that way.

no need to have a shitty attitude about someone using ONE pic of yours that he GOOGLED to explain something to someone. which, you helped none of, you just came in here to complain about someone using a pic of yours instead of offering help.

food for thought.
:deadhorse:

[Kharn]

food for thought, don't upload pictures to the internet without a watermark or with the ability for them to rip it without a screenshot if you want to be that way.

no need to have a shitty attitude about someone using ONE pic of yours that he GOOGLED to explain something to someone. which, you helped none of, you just came in here to complain about someone using a pic of yours instead of offering help.

food for thought.
:deadhorse:

I do water mark now.

It's still polite to quote where you found something to give the original owners credit. I wasn't getting shitty I thought I came across politely, maybe when you pour your heart into something you will be inclined to say similar because I have slaved over these animals daily for a good 7years now.

If I did not help then what is my picture doing for the explanation...helping someone (albeit without my knowledge at the time).

Do not turn this into something that has gone and passed.

The original poster respected my wishes and apologized for using it to which I am grateful.

[ClubberLang78]

As much as I hear they are hearty they aren't very sensitive and this has happened to me three different times with all sized Peacocks it is just what happens to them honestly no rhyme or reason!

I have to think with the intelligence they have being captive and caught in the wild can't be fun for them no matter how great your tank etc.