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mpderksen
04/05/2015, 11:32 PM
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. This is my first tank to try SPS. Previously I have had a nano and BC29, but now, 18 months into my 75, I actually am having success with my first SPS. I have nothing to compare it to, but I'm actually seeing growth in my 6 little sticks. A few I thought were dead, but left them anyway. Now, I see encrusting and polyp extension like never before. Lately I can see changes every week. It's really encouraging. Even my fish seem to be getting along (Kole is still a bit of a bully...).
So here's the worry. I see some GHA deep in one of the frags, and I have some brown cyano. I took the GFO/carbon reactor off-line about a month ago, but I am nervous to reload it and stress the system. My HANNA reports low PO4, but I battled GHA for like 6 months, so I'm extra aware of it in my system. I don't want to strip the water and stall my coral growth, but don't want to allow the GHA to take over either.
Should I just load the reactor with a small amount of GFO/carbon, or let it roll?

PhaneSoul
04/06/2015, 12:35 AM
what do u do for maintenance?

mpderksen
04/06/2015, 08:26 AM
Weekly: clean the acrylic. Empty and wipe the neck of the Reef Octopus skimmer (that thing pulls some nasty crud!). Double check my 2-part bottles. Top off the ATO reservoir and test the float switch. Test SG, Alk, Ca and PO4. Change GFO when PO4 hits 0.03.
Monthly: test Mg. Blast everything with a handheld power head.
Quarterly: vacuum sump and overflow.
AWC and Apex takes care of the rest. I'm currently testing Alk a little more often to dial it in. Yesterday it was down to 8.5, so I increased the pump a little. Ca was 437, and I try to keep that between 425 and 450.
That's about it.

thegrun
04/06/2015, 08:41 AM
I would restart the reactor. As you posted, start with about half of the recommended quantity, and after a couple of weeks increase the GFO to a full load.

mpderksen
04/06/2015, 08:58 AM
I would restart the reactor. As you posted, start with about half of the recommended quantity, and after a couple of weeks increase the GFO to a full load.


Well, I trust you (based on the help you've given in the past, thanks again). The reason I've hesitated is that I've read posts from people that have stripped their water and the SPS has suffered.
It's probably a good place to list my feeding too, and get some advice on that. The auto feeder puts in NLS pellets at noon, 3:00pm and 6:00pm. My first Anthias is still in QT until the end of the month, but then I'll add one more feeding, since I've read they benefit from frequent, small doses. I have too many grazers (a Kole, One Spot Foxface and a dwarf flame) so I put nori on a veggie clip every other day. Every 2-3 days I feed some PE Mysis in the evening, rinsed. Twice a week I put in 10ml of phytoplankton. I never shut off the skimmer or main flow when I feed. And I've never used the "feed mode" on either my MP10 or WP25.
I don't dose anything like Kalk or carbon (vinegar, vodka etc.). I never spot feed anything or have any type of coral food. Should I?

PhaneSoul
04/06/2015, 12:15 PM
What about your substrate? Your cleaning everything else, are you cleaning that too?

mpderksen
04/06/2015, 02:40 PM
What about your substrate? Your cleaning everything else, are you cleaning that too?


It's fairly shallow, but when I move the powerhead over stuff, I agitate it, let it settle, THEN blow the rocks.

ca1ore
04/06/2015, 02:56 PM
Even in very low nutrient tanks it is not unusual to see some algae growth in spots the herbivores cannot reach. I concur with thegrun, restart the reactor but take it sloooow, and add media incrementally until you're at a level that gives you the levels you want.

When you say 'brown cyano' do you mean cyano or diatoms? If it's the former, don't think I've ever had a tank where there wasn't a bit of it somewhere. It's generally easily remedied with directed flow. If its the latter, then silicates are normally the issue, which GFO will help to remove.

There are a handful of folks here on RC who ascribe every problem known to man to the substrate. Obsess over it if you want, but I wouldn't frankly.

Nano sapiens
04/06/2015, 04:04 PM
There are a handful of folks here on RC who ascribe every problem known to man to the substrate. Obsess over it if you want, but I wouldn't frankly.

After having read through the recent DSB vs SSB argument thread, I got a laugh out of this statement :)

Unfortunately, substrate care (or lack thereof) is often overlooked or even outright dismissed in some cases in the reef keeping hobby. This is a shame, since the regular cleaning of a typical shallow substrate can be an effective tool one can incorporate into one's maintenance schedule to help control nutrient excesses, particuarly nitrate and phosphate.

It is, along with regular water changes and some algae removal, my sole source of nutrient export in my nearly 7 year old tank.

mpderksen
04/06/2015, 04:57 PM
Cool, I'll reload it tonight, as well as get a picture of the problem areas.
Nano, where in the East Bay are you. I live out in Manteca, but come to berkeley about once a week for work (sales on the UC campus). I'm going frag shopping in a few weeks and will hit the store in Hayward, as well as a few in Fremont.

Nano sapiens
04/06/2015, 05:46 PM
Near Concord.

d-man
04/06/2015, 07:22 PM
Nice. I'm from lafayette

mpderksen
04/06/2015, 10:10 PM
If you guys are up for meeting up at a local store, and maybe lunch, let me know. I plan to have a multi-store day one of the first Saturday's in May.

PhaneSoul
04/06/2015, 11:08 PM
Even in very low nutrient tanks it is not unusual to see some algae growth in spots the herbivores cannot reach.
There are a handful of folks here on RC who ascribe every problem known to man to the substrate. Obsess over it if you want, but I wouldn't frankly.
Its not just the substrate i like to obsess over, the rocks are just as important. if the herbivores cant reach the algae i have a feeling there was some food that didn't get eatin or some other type of food/detritus/nutrient containing item(s) that wasn't able to be reached by other consumers contributing to the algae growth. That's why blowing off the rocks and/or good flow around rocks is suggested, to keep organics from settling. Algae isn't unusual at all in small amounts, but can show you a whole lot about the nutrient content of your system.

After having read through the recent DSB vs SSB argument thread, I got a laugh out of this statement :)

Unfortunately, substrate care (or lack thereof) is often overlooked or even outright dismissed in some cases in the reef keeping hobby. This is a shame, since the regular cleaning of a typical shallow substrate can be an effective tool one can incorporate into one's maintenance schedule to help control nutrient excesses, particuarly nitrate and phosphate.

It is, along with regular water changes and some algae removal, my sole source of nutrient export in my nearly 7 year old tank.

how often do you do maintenance and what types of coral do you have?

mpderksen
04/06/2015, 11:25 PM
So here are the offending areas:
What I called "brown cyano" only because it was descriptive, not necessarily accurate...
313842
And the little clump of GHA inside the branches of my SPS (which I don't know the name of). Difficult to see, I admit.
313843

sfoister
04/07/2015, 07:05 AM
After having read through the recent DSB vs SSB argument thread, I got a laugh out of this statement :)

Unfortunately, substrate care (or lack thereof) is often overlooked or even outright dismissed in some cases in the reef keeping hobby. This is a shame, since the regular cleaning of a typical shallow substrate can be an effective tool one can incorporate into one's maintenance schedule to help control nutrient excesses, particuarly nitrate and phosphate.

It is, along with regular water changes and some algae removal, my sole source of nutrient export in my nearly 7 year old tank.

I've always subscribed to the idea that my choice of livestock needed to have some sort of critter(s) that would help maintain my substrate. I currently keep Nassarius Snails, a fighting conch, serpent stars, a hand full of hermits... My substrate stays clean and I skim. This is the only nutrient export method I use and my nitrates are almost always undetectable.

I think there's a lot of over thinking and over killing going on within the hobby, IMO.

PhaneSoul
04/07/2015, 08:50 AM
What about when your nassarius snails, fighting conch, serpent stars & handful of hermits poop? What about the bacteria and when they die?

Not trying to debate here just some questions to ask and maybe get you thinking.

I think the only over thinking that goes on is when the tank tries to get ran like a complete Eco system when in fact it cannot be ran like that

Nano sapiens
04/07/2015, 09:01 AM
Deleted...

Nano sapiens
04/07/2015, 09:02 AM
how often do you do maintenance and what types of coral do you have?

5% WC 2x/week with SB vacuuming, removal of backwall algae/bio-film and turkey-baste the LR once a week, vacuum under a LR about once each month (~6 months to vacuum under all base LR). It's a 12g nano tank so quite a bit easier to maintain the substrate under the LR structure than a large system.

It's a 'mixed reef' with SPS, LPS, Rics/Rhodactis, Zoas/Palys. Some of the corals are 18 years old as they came from my larger 55g system I had running for nearly 10 years...ditto for the LR and most of the LS. Two adult Ocellaris Clowns and corals get fed twice a day and I still typically have untestable NO3 and PO4 (Salifert kits).

In a nano tank, everything happens much moe quickly so one doesn't have to wait for years to see if a method causes long-term issues, or not. One of the most common problems that I've seen on the forums is excessive nutrient enrichment (lack of sufficient nutrient export) as the 'don't touch the sand bed' philosophy from the DSB methodology has, unfortunately, often been misapplied to 1-3" SSBs in these small systems.

ca1ore
04/07/2015, 09:13 AM
Its not just the substrate i like to obsess over, the rocks are just as important. if the herbivores cant reach the algae i have a feeling there was some food that didn't get eatin or some other type of food/detritus/nutrient containing item(s) that wasn't able to be reached by other consumers contributing to the algae growth. That's why blowing off the rocks and/or good flow around rocks is suggested, to keep organics from settling. Algae isn't unusual at all in small amounts, but can show you a whole lot about the nutrient content of your system.

Largely conjecture! I have come to the conclusion after a great many years of doing this that algae is a part of every system. The goal should be 'control' rather than 'elimination'; the latter is impossible, anyhow. Part of control is maintaining low nutrients, but I'd argue that no nutrients is neither desirable nor possible. There are a lot of ways one can achieve a low nutrient environment.

I've got a couple of spots in my tank where GHA grows, and what they both have in common is that the Tangs cannot reach them. Has nothing to do with uneaten food, it's just that there are low level nutrients that the algae can use there (or on my ATS, for that matter).

Frankly, I don't 'blow off' my rocks because tank flow is so high that nothing accumulates.

ca1ore
04/07/2015, 09:19 AM
I think the only over thinking that goes on is when the tank tries to get ran like a complete Eco system when in fact it cannot be ran like that

Funny, I'd argue that aspiring to a tank that is run (not ran) like an ecosystem is the precise opposite of 'over thinking'. Of course it cannot be done completely, but it can be done to a degree.

zooman72
04/07/2015, 09:20 AM
Not trying to debate here just some questions to ask and maybe get you thinking.

Asking a question on a forum in anticipation of a response in what some might consider goading a "debate", especially with such a contentious subject...

I think the only over thinking that goes on is when the tank tries to get ran like a complete Eco system when in fact it cannot be ran like that

It is overthinking to try to incorporate an "ecosystem" approach (which we do to a large degree with live rock anyway, followed by herbivores, etc.), just because it may be more difficult, and cannot be done?

:facepalm:

Nano sapiens
04/07/2015, 09:30 AM
Every reef tank is it's own 'ecosystem', it just can never duplicate the much more bio-diverse ecosystem of a natural reef.

ca1ore
04/07/2015, 09:36 AM
So here are the offending areas:
What I called "brown cyano" only because it was descriptive, not necessarily accurate...
313842
And the little clump of GHA inside the branches of my SPS (which I don't know the name of). Difficult to see, I admit.
313843

Looks more like diatoms to me, but hard to tell for sure. I'd begin using GFO and GAC again; just keep a close eye on the reaction of your SPS.

mpderksen
04/07/2015, 09:54 AM
Looks more like diatoms to me, but hard to tell for sure. I'd begin using GFO and GAC again; just keep a close eye on the reaction of your SPS.


BRS calculator called for a half cup of each. I'll load a 1/4 cup to start. Seems safe enough. I'll run it for a few weeks, then change out for a full dose on the next round.

danil
04/07/2015, 09:57 AM
I would agree with thegrun. Start the reactor with half load and increase slowly to lower your phosphate level. SPS will be fine with lower phosphate though I won't recommend to strip phosphate to absolute 0. CUC is very important - keep up with dying snails and crabs they need to be replaced occasionally. Do you have refugium? Some people get good results fighting GHA by growing algae in refugium. If you up to the project there is Algae Scrubber thing it does work for sure since I'm using it :). It grows same type of algae you are trying to get rid of in main tank and out-compete it. Refugium grows macro algae which is different from GHA so from my experience it's less effective. Also - try to speed up growth of coralline algae. GHA will no grow if rocks covered in coralline.

GL!

mpderksen
04/07/2015, 10:16 AM
I would agree with thegrun. Start the reactor with half load and increase slowly to lower your phosphate level. SPS will be fine with lower phosphate though I won't recommend to strip phosphate to absolute 0. CUC is very important - keep up with dying snails and crabs they need to be replaced occasionally. Do you have refugium? Some people get good results fighting GHA by growing algae in refugium. If you up to the project there is Algae Scrubber thing it does work for sure since I'm using it :). It grows same type of algae you are trying to get rid of in main tank and out-compete it. Refugium grows macro algae which is different from GHA so from my experience it's less effective. Also - try to speed up growth of coralline algae. GHA will no grow if rocks covered in coralline.

GL!


Another Nor Cal guy! Not a refugium, per se, but my middle sump chamber could easily have some macro. Right now it's just a pile of Marine Pure balls and the heater/probe rack. I have a light already, with a grow bulb and connected to the Apex. I'm hesitant to add an ATS, mostly for the added maintenance.
Curiously, my wife commented just yesterday that the coralline on the back was ugly. Mostly, I think, because my tuxedo urchin eats the middle out of all the spots, leaving rings. Never really understood how to specifically encourage it to grow. I tend to keep my Ca on the higher side, like 450. And Mg stays above 1400 just with Reef Crystals and an AWC.

ca1ore
04/07/2015, 10:27 AM
Not sure that a refugium with macro (typically chaeto) is less effective necessarily; just that it requires more space than a scrubber and so tends to be undersized for the job. There was a study done a while back looking at the rates at which various kinds of algae take up nutrients. I don't recall the exact details, but I think that chaeto was just as good as GHA.

sfoister
04/07/2015, 10:51 AM
What about when your nassarius snails, fighting conch, serpent stars & handful of hermits poop? What about the bacteria and when they die?

Not trying to debate here just some questions to ask and maybe get you thinking.

I think the only over thinking that goes on is when the tank tries to get ran like a complete Eco system when in fact it cannot be ran like that

I've watched my peppermint shrimp eat conch poop and I've seen serpent star eat shrimp poop. Haven't you ever seen the movie Human Centipede?