Best schooling fish

[dragonfly1972]

I'm looking to add some schooling fish to my tank. What is your favorite one? I'm having a hard time deciding.

[alprazo]

Are you looking for shoaling or schooling fish, there is a big difference. Shoaling is a group of fish that will hang together. Schooling is a swimming pattern of a group of fish that is coordinated and directional.

Shoaling can easily accomplished with cardinals. Lookdowns will swim together as well as pilotfish and pompano in a tanks but it is not schooling.

Schooling is much more difficult. With much effort, I have come to the conclusion that a predator must be present for schooling behavior to persist or a strong rotational current forcing directional swimming in a round aquaria (I call the latter pseudo-schooling). I have worked with fish like menhaden and silversides - these fish spend their lives swimming in schools. Hours to days after being removed from the ocean and place into a pool the schooling behavior ceases. When I've added a predator like a shark - the fish instantly group and start schooling. My point is that - attempting to create a school of fish in your tank without the addition of something that is going to eat those fish will be fruitless.

[dragonfly1972]

My apologies....I mean shoaling.

[alprazo]

Depends if you want active fish or not. Sweepers and to a greater extent lookdowns are active fish. Cardinals preferably PJs are great active fish and very easy.

The best place I have ever seen schooling fish is at Atlantis. The have a great school of sardines that I could watch for hours. It is mesmerizing. They also have tuna and jacks ready to pick a sardine or two off. Great tank, near impossible to replicate in the home IMO.

[acrohead500ppm]

Chalk bass, they don't really school but they shoal/ cruise around together, and they have some wicked indigo blue stripes in the right lighting.

[CoralNerd]

I'm not sure what type of tank your going for but my peaceful tank I have two yellow corris wrasse that hang out together. Two gobbies one yellow watchmen and one Yasha Goby occupy one cave with a pistol shrimp. I'm getting five Zebra Barred Dartfish which should be cool. Anthias could be good also.

[CoralsAddiction]

I had three Black Bar Chromis. They killed each other until only one was left...all within 8 or 9 days. So I wouldn't recommend them despite the fact that they are considered shoaling fish.

[DopeCantWin]

That's easy, Purple Tangs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mibMc_dhpHw)

[dragonfly1972]

I had three Black Bar Chromis. They killed each other until only one was left...all within 8 or 9 days. So I wouldn't recommend them despite the fact that they are considered shoaling fish.

That's what I'm worried about.

[dragonfly1972]

That's easy, Purple Tangs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mibMc_dhpHw)

They are beautiful but I have a hippo tang....she wouldn't appreciate more tangs.

[dragonfly1972]

I like the chalk bass suggestion.
I am looking at the following options...just can't decide.

Bengaii cardinals
Yellow stripe cardinals
PJ cardinals
Bannerfish

I want a more peaceful fish. I have plenty of other fish that I don't want to torture ;0)

[eatbreakfast]

What size tank? That definitely affects which social species to get.

In captivity bangaii's will not be social, you will end up with a pr and the rest will be killed.

Pj cardinals and yellow striped cardinals will be a good choice for most tanks.

Bannerfish get surprisingly large, so to do a group of them a couple hundred gallons are needed.

Smaller peaceful anthias such as dispars or randalls are a good choice.

Pilotfish and lookdowns would need tank sizes in the thousands of gallons to be kept in a group.

[Mael]

I have personally been shopping for a group of small fish as well besides anthias and have narrowed it down to yellow stripe and red dot glass cardinals, both are sold in groups by LA and I have seen both stay in loose groups in aquariums before. Also depends what part of the aquarium you want them to occupy, the zebra dartfish and blue dartfish both are sold in groups and occupy the upper part of the tank.

[Haffs09]

I added 11 chalk bass to my tank about 3 weeks ago. They are in a tank with a lot of tangs that are significantly bigger then them, and for the first 2 weeks, they spent most of their time hiding together under some live rock and only coming out to eat. Recently they are feeling a little more comfortable and are venturing a little bit from their home. I love their colors and am interested to see how things play out after some more time in the tank.

[dragonfly1972]

I have a 90 gal which is why I was looking more towards the cardinals.

[dragonfly1972]

If I went with the PJ or the yellow striped carfinal, how many would you guys put in?
Will they do better with 3 or 6...anybody have experience with either of them?

[Winwood]

I am having great luck with a group of 7 Randall's anthias currently. They seem to be easy to feed, stay small and don't seem to exhibit the feisty nature of some of the other similar anthias species. Threadfin cardinals are a great schoaling species as well.

[Reef Frog]

Did you ever consider a harem? I've read some interesting accounts of Royal Grammas and Fairy/Flasher wrasses. While they don't school and the photos & videos I've seen could be more accurately called a "loose aggregation", it's a nice sight to see so many identical colorful fish all at once.

[hobbzz]

Cardinals or dispar anthias.

[dragonfly1972]

I'm going to take a look at the anthias. You guys have me interested.

[alprazo]

Though I have never tried them, I really like the look of a shoal of copper sweepers - they are about the same price as the cardinals. A caribbean fish too.


http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000bB0jY11lE28/s/750/750/MPO-Goliath-Grouper-Florida3131117.jpg

[dragonfly1972]

How many anthias would you add? How many male and female?

[dragonfly1972]

And how about the lyretail ....any success with them?
I'm researching and finding that I should have one male to no less than 4-6 females.

[dragonfly1972]

Though I have never tried them, I really like the look of a shoal of copper sweepers - they are about the same price as the cardinals. A caribbean fish too.


http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000bB0jY11lE28/s/750/750/MPO-Goliath-Grouper-Florida3131117.jpg

I actually looked at these but they aren't colorful enough. My hubby is colorblind and can only see certain colors. The bright yellows and oranges are the best....or purple, although to him it looks blue.

[Winwood]

I have 6 lyretails. They don't really shoal but evenly spread out. They also like squabbling a lot with each other. Pretty easy to keep though.

[alprazo]

If color is what your looking for, I agree that anthias is your best be.

[dragonfly1972]

If color is what your looking for, I agree that anthias is your best be.

That's what it's looking like.
Now...which anthias to go with LOL

[reefwiser]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SPJ8IG3TB4c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

threadfin cardinals.

[Grkgod36]

i have two pj's and regular cardinal and they all hang out together.

[nonstopfishies]

Agree on the blue eye/threadfin cardinals. I have 8 in a 120 and they hang together except for when one pair is clutching, then those 2 go to the opposite side of the rest. In my 60 i have 5 of them and they hang out together as well.

Firefish are working well for me too. 4 hang out together in a 60.

[ca1ore]

I've got groups of many if the fish suggested in this thread (chalk basslets, PJ cardinals, a few different types of anthias) and none of them schoal. My chalks did when I first put them in because they were small and felt threatened; but once they settled in and grew a bit, guess what .... No schoal anymore.

[dragonfly1972]

I've got groups of many if the fish suggested in this thread (chalk basslets, PJ cardinals, a few different types of anthias) and none of them schoal. My chalks did when I first put them in because they were small and felt threatened; but once they settled in and grew a bit, guess what .... No schoal anymore.

That would be my luck! LOL

[dragonfly1972]

I'm driving myself nuts trying to decide.
The anthias are beautiful but they get a bit bigger then I want.
I think I'm going to go with 6 yellow striped cardinals. They stay small, my hubby can see the yellow and from everything I've read they aren't aggressive so if they don't shoal there's a better chance that they won't attack each other.

[nirvanaandtool]

I have a 90 as well and am leaning towards a trio of chalkies. I considered anthias and cardinals as well but the bass just seem like a more off-the-beat option.

[dragonfly1972]

That is one of the fish that my hubby picked out.

[d-man]

The chalks get big.
In a 90 Id honestly do the threadfin cardinals, although at first a few will die. If you get a group of 10, I bet 5 will die. So get more than you are expecting to live. Once you have them they will shoal a bit but nothing tight. At night when the lights are off is when you will see them a lil more together.
You could also do carbyerri anthias. They stay small, stay together well and aren't aggressive like other anthias. They are also more colorful than dispars in my opinion although not quiete as cheap. They aren't expensive though either.
As with all your fish, QT them. I would suggest you observe first, get them eating and then prazi pro them to make sure no internal parasites which are common in anthias.

[acrohead500ppm]

The reason I recommended chalk bass in the first place was because they tend to (not always) be really active in the water column, like I mentioned, they don't school but tend to hang out together.
Also, they don't require multiple feedings each day like chromis or anthias.

[Jasanden]

What about a group of Royal Gramma's? They'll act pretty similar to the Chalk Bass but are one of the prettiest fish in my eyes.

[acrohead500ppm]

What about a group of Royal Gramma's? They'll act pretty similar to the Chalk Bass but are one of the prettiest fish in my eyes.

RGs will fight to the death. Bad idea.

[Bill Nye]

Agree on the blue eye/threadfin cardinals. I have 8 in a 120 and they hang together except for when one pair is clutching, then those 2 go to the opposite side of the rest. In my 60 i have 5 of them and they hang out together as well.

Firefish are working well for me too. 4 hang out together in a 60.

You've had firefish school? I thought unless they were a pair they would fight to the death? I love my firefish and always wanted more but was afraid they would fight.

[zooman72]

RGs will fight to the death. Bad idea.

Not exactly true - this group has been together for over 2 years, in a 40B...

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-197.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-197.jpg.html)

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-170.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-170.jpg.html)

That being said - they do not even come close to shoaling or schooling, ever...

[Haffs09]

Zooman - nice! Did you get all 5 when they were very small?

[acrohead500ppm]

Not exactly true - this group has been together for over 2 years, in a 40B...

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-197.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-197.jpg.html)

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-170.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-170.jpg.html)

That being said - they do not even come close to shoaling or schooling, ever...

beautiful gorg/ carib tank, but you have to admit that is not the norm

[zooman72]

Zooman - nice! Did you get all 5 when they were very small?

Thanks, there are actually 6 in there (it is hard to get them all in the pic, unless I am feeding, and then I can't take the pic because I need to hands for the smartphone) along with a pair of cherub angels, and yes, I did get them when they were smaller...

beautiful gorg/ carib tank, but you have to admit that is not the norm

Thank you, and while it is not what is normally attempted, it certainly can be. They are reported to be somewhat social in the wild, and I have found that as long as they are procured when smaller (younger), are introduced at the same time, each have a "bolt hole", and the aquarium is large enough, that they can be kept in small groups. Others have noted the same, although there is some conjecture as to whether sex ratios are of importance.

This is my experience only, and as I stated, a relatively poor choice for the purposes of this thread - they seem to space themselves evenly throughout the tank until feeding time, but I love their interactions and they are one of my favorites.

[hobbzz]

I pulled out my lyretails and replaced them with 10 dispar. As others have said the lyretails don't shoal. But even when I only had two dispar, they were stuck to each other like glue. Now all ten are, and this is normal for dispar, not the exception. I would add all female. Three for that size tank.

[nirvanaandtool]

The reason I recommended chalk bass in the first place was because they tend to (not always) be really active in the water column, like I mentioned, they don't school but tend to hang out together.
Also, they don't require multiple feedings each day like chromis or anthias.

That's why I'm leaning towards them. Plus you can get them pretty cheap from the Florida collectors like KP Aquatics.

They don't get that big either. Fishbase lists max size as 8cm so around 3.1 inches long. Most anthias like lyres get bigger than that.

Awesome tank Zooman. Love the RG harem.

[zooman72]

That's why I'm leaning towards them. Plus you can get them pretty cheap from the Florida collectors like KP Aquatics.

They don't get that big either. Fishbase lists max size as 8cm so around 3.1 inches long. Most anthias like lyres get bigger than that.

Awesome tank Zooman. Love the RG harem.

Thanks Ralph, but just a possible word of caution - when I had chalk bass, they rarely shoaled if at all, and they seemed to need a bit more feeding than the other fish in the system (such as grammas and cherub angels) to keep weight on. I am aware that they may have been parasitized, but I have had them three times over the years, and had the same experience each time. If you feed very well it may never be a problem though...

[Winwood]

Not exactly true - this group has been together for over 2 years, in a 40B...

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-197.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-197.jpg.html)

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-170.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-170.jpg.html)

That being said - they do not even come close to shoaling or schooling, ever...

Is there a separate thread on this tank? Years ago I did this in a 150. I love biotope aquariums!

[ca1ore]

Whether fish will shoal has as much to do with the environment as it does the fish. As I noted before, when I first introduced my 8 chalk basslets into my big tank they stayed together. But they were small, and I am quite sure felt intimidated by the bigger fish. Once they had a chance to grow (approaching 3 inches, so rehomed half of them) and they stopped feeling intimidated, and got bolder, the schoaling behavior stopped.

I have always believed it is the lack of predators, along with tank size, that precludes schooling in our tanks.

[zooman72]

Is there a separate thread on this tank? Years ago I did this in a 150. I love biotope aquariums!

No thread here on RC, but there is one over on NR...

I too love biotope systems!

Whether fish will shoal has as much to do with the environment as it does the fish. As I noted before, when I first introduced my 8 chalk basslets into my big tank they stayed together. But they were small, and I am quite sure felt intimidated by the bigger fish. Once they had a chance to grow (approaching 3 inches, so rehomed half of them) and they stopped feeling intimidated, and got bolder, the schoaling behavior stopped.

I have always believed it is the lack of predators, along with tank size, that precludes schooling in our tanks.

I would agree with this assessment, although even when I added a smaller trio to a system with larger fishes, I never saw them perform what would be considered shoaling, although I have seen it in the wild.

[pinnatus]

Thanks, there are actually 6 in there (it is hard to get them all in the pic, unless I am feeding, and then I can't take the pic because I need to hands for the smartphone) along with a pair of cherub angels, and yes, I did get them when they were smaller...



Thank you, and while it is not what is normally attempted, it certainly can be. They are reported to be somewhat social in the wild, and I have found that as long as they are procured when smaller (younger), are introduced at the same time, each have a "bolt hole", and the aquarium is large enough, that they can be kept in small groups. Others have noted the same, although there is some conjecture as to whether sex ratios are of importance.

This is my experience only, and as I stated, a relatively poor choice for the purposes of this thread - they seem to space themselves evenly throughout the tank until feeding time, but I love their interactions and they are one of my favorites.

I have a group of 6 also. They do not shoal, but they do like to be near each other. I have an 8' tank and the grammas stay in about a 3' area. They also like to bicker.

You do need to get them small, and they must stay together the whole time. One of the group tends to become male, the rest stay female. If they are separated, then they tend to turn male and will not tolerate each other. This happens fast. (at least that is a working theory that I agree with) So if you order them from a lfs, make sure they keep them together and not in separate tanks.

[nirvanaandtool]

Thanks Ralph, but just a possible word of caution - when I had chalk bass, they rarely shoaled if at all, and they seemed to need a bit more feeding than the other fish in the system (such as grammas and cherub angels) to keep weight on. I am aware that they may have been parasitized, but I have had them three times over the years, and had the same experience each time. If you feed very well it may never be a problem though...

Ah good to know. I do feed pretty heavy for my ever-hungry wrasses and there's plenty to go around so it might be a non-issue but not shoaling is a concern. My wrasses tend to be somewhat skittish which is why I'm looking for a shoaler.
Did your chalks hide a lot? Or were they out in the open but just not together as a group? Wondering if they are an effective dither or not.

[zooman72]

Ah good to know. I do feed pretty heavy for my ever-hungry wrasses and there's plenty to go around so it might be a non-issue but not shoaling is a concern. My wrasses tend to be somewhat skittish which is why I'm looking for a shoaler.
Did your chalks hide a lot? Or were they out in the open but just not together as a group? Wondering if they are an effective dither or not.

The chalk bass will become more "bold" with time, but never to the extent of the grammas - they would not be my first choice for a "dither" fish.

Honestly, you might reconsider some of the smaller anthias, such as some that were mentioned here already.

[sczlars]

Blue eye cardinals. Very nice. I have 3, and will add some more once the bigger tank is set up. They remind me of FW tetras, but much cooler. --Lars

[dragonfly1972]

All of the suggestions on here are great...it has had my mind spinning and changing. Very helpful advice.
I think I'm gonna go with 6 yellow cardinals. This is why....
They stay smaller then the other options, peaceful, bright color.
I love wrasses but they get a bit larger.

Thoughts?

[alprazo]

Cardinals are easy, inexpensive and develop a hierarchy that is interesting to observe. Can't go wrong there.

[dragonfly1972]

Alprazo...you agreed with me and made my day! Thank you. I've been driving myself nuts trying to decide. ;0)

[alprazo]

Berwick? Is that near Geisinger? Anyway, Good luck. I had my cardinals for about 12 years.

[dragonfly1972]

Yes it is. I'm about 20 mins east of there. Regrettably I spend too much time there.

[nirvanaandtool]

The chalk bass will become more "bold" with time, but never to the extent of the grammas - they would not be my first choice for a "dither" fish.

Honestly, you might reconsider some of the smaller anthias, such as some that were mentioned here already.

Yea you might be right. Or some of the cardinals some are suggesting.
Maybe some anthias and one chalkie cause I still think they are kind of cool.
Thanks for your input. :thumbsup:

[ca1ore]

Interestingly, I have been working a group of Resplendent Pseudoanthias through QT. They went into my display almost two weeks ago and, guess what, they are schoaling. They are, and will remain, smaller than the other anthias in my tank; so perhaps they will continue to shoal rather than 'growing out of it'. For now, all 7 hang around my large plating monti as a group, darting in under the scrolls when they feel threatened. It's pretty cool ....

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r680/ca1ore/IMG_1223_zpsflrwqtx1.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/ca1ore/media/IMG_1223_zpsflrwqtx1.jpg.html)

Can only see 5 (?) of the 7 in this picture, and they're about to dart in as the larger bimac approaches. I also added a pair of princess anthias at the same time, and while they all hung together in the QT, they are at separate ends of the display.

[Martini5788]

Not exactly true - this group has been together for over 2 years, in a 40B...



http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-197.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-197.jpg.html)



http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o575/aaroncobaugh/temporary-170.jpg (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/aaroncobaugh/media/temporary-170.jpg.html)



That being said - they do not even come close to shoaling or schooling, ever...


I love this tank. I will have to do this one day, because it is mesmerizing to me. This
One is going on my tank bucket list( yes I have one of those)

[AkoAung]

What other fishes do you have in your tank? I have a small group of red spot cardinals and they school together most of the time. A local area hobbyist who's keeping a small school of 10 I think in a 90 with other peaceful fishes and they are doing great. She is so pleased with them she's going to add another dozen. I will be adding more to my group as well.

Their schooling behaviour is quite pleasant. I wouldn't keep them with clowns or big fish who can eat them. These do not grow more than 1.5" I believe.

[zooman72]

Yea you might be right. Or some of the cardinals some are suggesting.
Maybe some anthias and one chalkie cause I still think they are kind of cool.
Thanks for your input. :thumbsup:

No problem, good luck with whatever you decide to keep... :)

Interestingly, I have been working a group of Resplendent Pseudoanthias through QT. They went into my display almost two weeks ago and, guess what, they are schoaling. They are, and will remain, smaller than the other anthias in my tank; so perhaps they will continue to shoal rather than 'growing out of it'. For now, all 7 hang around my large plating monti as a group, darting in under the scrolls when they feel threatened. It's pretty cool....

You are right Simon - that is pretty cool! Love the tank, and the fish!

I love this tank. I will have to do this one day, because it is mesmerizing to me. This one is going on my tank bucket list (yes I have one of those)

Jeez, thanks, although I think it could be better - I have a build thread on NR for it...

There is another like this over at NR.com , and it is fantastic - a newer 58g I believe, and it is chock full of rock nems - check it out in the Biotope subforum...

[Relaxoreef]

That's easy, Purple Tangs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mibMc_dhpHw)

I witnessed two schools of blue tangs come together in Belize a few weeks ago. I thought they were solitary fish. Now I know. It was a beautiful thing.

[Martini5788]

What is the full name for NR? I thought it was nano reef but couldn't find anything

[zooman72]

What is the full name for NR? I thought it was nano reef but couldn't find anything

nano-reef.com

[Martini5788]

Oh ok. Forgot the -. I'm gonna be honest, and I hope no offense is given but I like yours better.

[csantanavaz]

Interestingly, I have been working a group of Resplendent Pseudoanthias through QT. They went into my display almost two weeks ago and, guess what, they are schoaling. They are, and will remain, smaller than the other anthias in my tank; so perhaps they will continue to shoal rather than 'growing out of it'. For now, all 7 hang around my large plating monti as a group, darting in under the scrolls when they feel threatened. It's pretty cool ....

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r680/ca1ore/IMG_1223_zpsflrwqtx1.jpg (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/ca1ore/media/IMG_1223_zpsflrwqtx1.jpg.html)

Can only see 5 (?) of the 7 in this picture, and they're about to dart in as the larger bimac approaches. I also added a pair of princess anthias at the same time, and while they all hung together in the QT, they are at separate ends of the display.
That plating monti is ridiculous!!! How longs that taken? Just got myself some tiny frags...

[ca1ore]

Today .....

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r680/ca1ore/IMG_1208_zpshldbcdyx.jpg

18 months ago ....

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r680/ca1ore/IMG_0299_zps9d760dd8.jpg

[Martini5788]

That is crazy. What lights are you running?

[ca1ore]

That is crazy. What lights are you running?

Been using ReefBreeders LED the while time. Initially supplemented with MH; now Kessil spots.

[AkoAung]

All of the suggestions on here are great...it has had my mind spinning and changing. Very helpful advice.
I think I'm gonna go with 6 yellow cardinals. This is why....
They stay smaller then the other options, peaceful, bright color.
I love wrasses but they get a bit larger.

Thoughts?

Please do further research on yellow stripe cardinals. I have seen them in large tanks (200+) and they did not school nor schoal. And they can get huge. Here is a pic of one caught by a hook:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHuBWkGmE7doRU44e-9_VdO8IMZTGC23jW84tiMG8ItnFE3LSsDg

ok :lol2: not the exact species but they do get HUGE in home aquaria.

[dragonfly1972]

Everything I've read says max 2.5 "

[csantanavaz]

Been using ReefBreeders LED the while time. Initially supplemented with MH; now Kessil spots.
Tank looks immense! Big fan of plating corals.. mine are tiny frags so 10 years countdown has begun...!

[zooman72]

Oh ok. Forgot the -. I'm gonna be honest, and I hope no offense is given but I like yours better.

Thanks, that is very kind of you...:o

[Martini5788]

You are welcome

[AkoAung]

Everything I've read says max 2.5 "

I've personally seen 4"+ speciemens in LFS more than once in the last six months. and they weren't schooling, shoaling, etc. They definitely weren't small nor cute at that size.

[DopeCantWin]

I've personally seen 4"+ speciemens in LFS more than once in the last six months. and they weren't schooling, shoaling, etc. They definitely weren't small nor cute at that size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostorhinchus_cyanosoma

8cm or 3.1", but the average is under 2.5". I also doubt they would school.

[dragonfly1972]

UGH! This is driving me crazy.

[nirvanaandtool]

Haha I understand the frustration.

I'm leaning the threadfin cardinal route right now vs anthias. Maybe a group of 5 for my 90. Who knows what I'll actually get when I'm ready to order though. I'll change my mind at least 3 more times.