View Full Version : detrimental reliance? Legal?
drclifton
04/09/2015, 06:36 PM
Hello,
I live in Virginia and rent a house. Recently my landlord toured our home and saw my aquarium. She freaked out and sent me an email demanding that I remove the tank in one month. When we leased the home my girlfiriend, myself and my girlfriends mother were talking with the landlord and we specifically asked if we could have a dog and an aquarium to which she replied yes. She wrote up a pet deposit clause that only mentions our dog, but does not prohibit an aquarium. We paid the deposit. Now she is threatening her lawyer on us and denying that she ever said yes. I bought and set up the tank because she said it was ok. Her most recent contact states that she is talking with her lawyer about adding an additional pet deposit fee "of at least 500 dollars" for the aquarium. Any advice?
addictedreefer
04/09/2015, 06:52 PM
If there is not a no pets policy in your lease, your position should be pretty solid. Your landlord cannot renegotiate the terms of your lease at will.
CafeReef
04/09/2015, 06:57 PM
If there is nothing in the lease banning pets or specially aquariums then there is nothing she can legally do. She also cannot tack on a pet deposit after the fact if it is not in the original contract. I would recommend taking a copy of your contract to the local housing and tenants authority to bring it to their attention if she is threatening you with her lawyer. Protect yourself because at this point she is already in a position she cannot legally substantiate and could very well be in violation of her license to be a landlord.
drclifton
04/09/2015, 07:27 PM
That's good advice. I appreciate your input.
Our big concern now is that the relationship is strained and she is going to be looking for any reason whatsoever to claim damages from the tank. We have seriously considered moving to get away from her but don't really know how to get out of the contract. We are one year in on a 3 year lease.
Thoughts?
zeebies
04/09/2015, 07:40 PM
If I were in your situation I would go out and get a renter's insurance policy that covers damage from having an aquarium. Let your landlord know you are working on this. There are policies that include this type of coverage. We have a tenant and required that she have this protection.
maxxII
04/09/2015, 07:54 PM
According to what I've been able to determine via the internet, Virginia is a one party state with regard to recorded conversations.
Do NOT have ant further contact with the landlord without recording the conversation.
Go to Best Buy and buy a digital pocket recorder. Spend the money and get a good one, you want to be able to record long conversations so memory and battery life are important here.
Did you document what the residence looked like when you moved in?
Document the crap out of what it looks like when you move out.
She cannot change the lease arbitrarily without incurring legal problems.
CStrickland
04/09/2015, 08:08 PM
It sounds like you were relying on two different things. There's "aquariums" and there's reef tanks. Plenty of landlords would be ok with a 10g that has nemo in it, but not a 250g with a rickety diy overflow and no drip loops, yknow?
It kinda sounds like your lease has a no pets clause that she overrode with permission for the dog by adding the deposit. That wouldn't do anything for the tank. It's prolly closer to a waterbed really
I'd document that there hasn't been any damage so far, and negotiate a reasonable deposit if you want to stay on. It sounds like she's honestly surprised and worried, might as well keep her happy. Renters insurance is a really good idea too, see if that would settle her mind. it doesn't sound like she wants to screw you around, she's just scared you'll wreck the house. There's some real bad tenants out there. It's prolly not worth escalating the situation
tkeracer619
04/09/2015, 10:43 PM
Have you asked her if you could leave with the tank?
My old landlord thought the idea of me putting in a 360gal was cool. He told me I could cut out the carpet as well as install a hot tub in the back yard.
Your landlord needs to chill out. Water drains and if you clean it up you can minimize damage, even in large spills.
CafeReef
04/10/2015, 03:48 PM
If I were in your situation I would go out and get a renter's insurance policy that covers damage from having an aquarium. Let your landlord know you are working on this. There are policies that include this type of coverage. We have a tenant and required that she have this protection.
This in my opinion, is fantastic advise. On two fronts, like before, if it is not in your lease, she cant change the lease. the second front, this would do well to sooth relationships with the landlord to point out that you are willing to pay for insurance which would cover issues caused by having the tank (leaks, structural etc). Insurance can be very affordable, and honestly I dont think is that bad of an idea because lease or no lease, if there is a problem, you will have to pay for the damage. this would protect you and your landlord.
jamie1981
04/10/2015, 04:17 PM
She may or may not be able to do anything now, but when your lease is up and it's time to renew she could put anything she wants into the lease that you would have to agree to or move out.
A reef tank could very easily cause tens of thousands of dollars of damage to a house if it were to leak or a poorly designed setup were to overflow a sump. Big difference in saltwater and freshwater when it comes to damage, you can dry freshwater up. Saltwater you can not just dry up. The salt will get into sub floors and wall cavities and salt attracts moisture meaning it could lead to bigger problems down the road if a spill does occur.
Depending on the size of the tank it could also cause structural problems with the house which is why many that allow tanks only allow up to a certain size.
Hodge1995
04/10/2015, 04:24 PM
This is really gonna be determined by your lease. If it has a no pet policy but your dog only has been approved by a lease agreement rider than you are allowed to have said dog only. If she did indeed approve your tank in the beginning it was your responsibility to make sure it was also on the agreement with the dog. I am not sure about Virginia but pretty sure it is common law that fish are included the "pet" wording.
Chevrefils
04/10/2015, 06:42 PM
No pet policies in leases are against the law in many places. Its more of a request by landlords but legally they cannot discriminate. Check your state or provincial landlord and tenants act. I'm in Canada i don't know about US.
Also renters insurance covers you where as dmage deposit only covers you up until that amount and your not guaranteed the landlord won't screw you around and not return it if you are owed that. There's shady people in general, Landlords and tenants. Cover you bases but dont trust word of mouth. I've had to take a landlord to court as they had a history of ripping off people and not returning deposits. To give an idea, a reason listed for not returning a deposit was a magnet left on the fridge from a previous tenant which was already there when i moved in.
Hodge1995
04/10/2015, 06:49 PM
No pet policies in leases are against the law in many places. Its more of a request by landlords but legally they cannot discriminate. Check your state or provincial landlord and tenants act.
This is incorrect. A lease is merely a legal binding agreement you sign it you abide by the rules.It is not discrimination if you agree to it. What states don't allow no pet policies I know for sure Illinois and California does.
CStrickland
04/10/2015, 07:32 PM
This is incorrect. A lease is merely a legal binding agreement you sign it you abide by the rules.It is not discrimination if you agree to it. What states don't allow no pet policies I know for sure Illinois and California does.
I think Ontario has a law ensuring the right to keep a pet. IIRC the landlord must show that the animal is a nuisance to deny it.
Several American states have rules entitling tenants of subsidized elderly housing to keep pets as a matter of public policy. Isn't that cool?
Protection against discrimination is not waivable, generally speaking one cannot bargain away those rights. Which makes sense if you think about it, the enforcing court would be in a pickle, no? Shelley v. Kraemer, 334 U.S. 1 (1948) is the basic idea when it comes to housing. But, U.S. law would require the pet to be qualified as a service animal before any of that Title II stuff would kick in.
WRT the title - detrimental reliance (promissory estoppel) requires a reasonable reliance. It's hard to prove, doesn't cover miscommunication, and injuctive relief would hardly be the least burdensome remedy anyway. In other words, a deposit might still be fair, all things considered. Also, in addition to the question of whether OP's tank install was taken in reasonable reliance, a large tank could constitute a hazard to the structure from both water and fire damage (is it a 20g, or a 250g? I'm just guessing it's larger because the setup cost is OP's sticking point).
Hodge1995
04/10/2015, 07:47 PM
I think Ontario has a law ensuring the right to keep a pet. IIRC the landlord must show that the animal is a nuisance to deny it.
Several American states have rules entitling tenants of subsidized elderly housing to keep pets as a matter of public policy. Isn't that cool?
Protection against discrimination is not waivable, generally speaking one cannot bargain away those rights. Which makes sense if you think about it, the enforcing court would be in a pickle, no? Shelley v. Kraemer, 334 U.S. 1 (1948) is the basic idea when it comes to housing. But, U.S. law would require the pet to be qualified as a service animal before any of that Title II stuff would kick in.
WRT the title - detrimental reliance (promissory estoppel) requires a reasonable reliance. It's hard to prove, doesn't cover miscommunication, and injuctive relief would hardly be the least burdensome remedy anyway. In other words, a deposit might still be fair, all things considered. Also, in addition to the question of whether OP's tank install was taken in reasonable reliance, a large tank could constitute a hazard to the structure from both water and fire damage (is it a 20g, or a 250g? I'm just guessing it's larger because the setup cost is OP's sticking point).
I have no idea what you do in Canada. There is exceptions for service animals but Fish are not under that. In Illinois you can pick and choose who you want in your rentals via background checks and credit checks as well you have the right to not allow pets ,the painting of walls,or anything you wish to put in a lease as long as it doesn't discriminate on race , sex , or age. No pets policy has nothing to do with discrimination. Just like taking a dog into an eating establishment is against the law if it isn't a service animal.
CStrickland
04/10/2015, 08:14 PM
I have no idea what you do in Canada. There is exceptions for service animals but Fish are not under that. In Illinois you can pick and choose who you want in your rentals via background checks and credit checks as well you have the right to not allow pets ,the painting of walls,or anything you wish to put in a lease as long as it doesn't discriminate on race , sex , or age. No pets policy has nothing to do with discrimination. Just like taking a dog into an eating establishment is against the law if it isn't a service animal.
I do not live in Canada, but Chevrefils said they do so that's why I used the example. If you don't know what they do in Canada then why did you say the post was incorrect? Your post was inaccurate because there are places and circumstances where no-pets policies are unenforceable. There's more than I listed but you get the idea, and "it's not discrimination if you agree to it" is just a weird thing to say. You're also missing a few protected classes in your list above, I hope you aren't a landlord ;)
U.S. federal law prohibits discrimination on the basis of: race, color, national origin, religion, sex, disability and familial status. The state of Illinois has opted to add the following classes: ancestry, age (40 and over), order of protection status, marital status, arrest record, military status, sexual orientation, and unfavorable discharge from military service.
It's getting kinda off-topic, but I think you should be careful saying things are legal when they aren't. Also, I can deff imagine a scenario where an aquarium would be a reasonable accommodation under the FHA. Why do you think it wouldn't?
Hodge1995
04/10/2015, 08:45 PM
I do not live in Canada, but Chevrefils said they do so that's why I used the example. If you don't know what they do in Canada then why did you say the post was incorrect? Your post was inaccurate because there are places and circumstances where no-pets policies are unenforceable. There's more than I listed but you get the idea, and "it's not discrimination if you agree to it" is just a weird thing to say. You're also missing a few protected classes in your list above, I hope you aren't a landlord ;)
U.S. federal law prohibits discrimination on the basis of: race, color, national origin, religion, sex, disability and familial status. The state of Illinois has opted to add the following classes: ancestry, age (40 and over), order of protection status, marital status, arrest record, military status, sexual orientation, and unfavorable discharge from military service.
It's getting kinda off-topic, but I think you should be careful saying things are legal when they aren't. Also, I can deff imagine a scenario where an aquarium would be a reasonable accommodation under the FHA. Why do you think it wouldn't?
You will argue about anything... It is absolutely legal ,I have 8 rental properties. Where in the above post does it say you have to allow animals on a rental property? You are not even correct on the arrest record I cannot allow people with sex convictions in my homes near schools playgrounds or churches. How come I cant just walk on someone elses property I mean heck it would be discrimination if I was asked to leave. You must be one of the people that feel entitled. By the way the op is talking about Virginia not Canada.
CStrickland
04/10/2015, 09:45 PM
You will argue about anything... It is absolutely legal ,I have 8 rental properties. Where in the above post does it say you have to allow animals on a rental property? You are not even correct on the arrest record I cannot allow people with sex convictions in my homes near schools playgrounds or churches. How come I cant just walk on someone elses property I mean heck it would be discrimination if I was asked to leave. You must be one of the people that feel entitled. By the way the op is talking about Virginia not Canada.
I'm aware that OP is talking about VA, I don't know if there are any applicable municipal ordinances where they rent. Given your track record on housing law in the state you rent in, I doubt you do either.
You said that a poster was "incorrect" to say that there are places where no-pets clauses are unenforceable, that's not true and I gave some examples. The point was just that it may be worth checking in OP's district.
You said "It is not discrimination if you agree to it." That's not true for the reasons I stated.
You said "There is exceptions for service animals but Fish are not under that." That's not true for reasons I'm willing to state if you are curious.
You said that in Illinois you can put "anything you wish to put in a lease as long as it doesn't discriminate on race , sex , or age." That's not true for the reasons I stated.
You seem to think I'm being argumentative, but you keep saying things that aren't true. If you quit being wrong, I would have less to type. I don't care whether you believe me or not, but it does concern me that someone would read your posts and underestimate the protection they have from bad landlords who think they can do whatever they want because a lease is a contract or some nonsense. It's just a question of not letting misinformation hang around.
Here is a link to the Illinois Commission that enforces laws against discrimination [IHRC] (https://www.illinois.gov/ihrc/Pages/default.aspx) You will find the classes that I listed right at the top. Perhaps you have arrest records confused with criminal convictions? Or innocent until proven guilty is just for entitled people. lol
Hodge1995
04/10/2015, 10:13 PM
I'm aware that OP is talking about VA, I don't know if there are any applicable municipal ordinances where they rent. Given your track record on housing law in the state you rent in, I doubt you do either.
You said that a poster was "incorrect" to say that there are places where no-pets clauses are unenforceable, that's not true and I gave some examples. The point was just that it may be worth checking in OP's district.
You said "It is not discrimination if you agree to it." That's not true for the reasons I stated.
You said "There is exceptions for service animals but Fish are not under that." That's not true for reasons I'm willing to state if you are curious.
You said that in Illinois you can put "anything you wish to put in a lease as long as it doesn't discriminate on race , sex , or age." That's not true for the reasons I stated.
You seem to think I'm being argumentative, but you keep saying things that aren't true. If you quit being wrong, I would have less to type. I don't care whether you believe me or not, but it does concern me that someone would read your posts and underestimate the protection they have from bad landlords who think they can do whatever they want because a lease is a contract or some nonsense. It's just a question of not letting misinformation hang around.
Here is a link to the Illinois Commission that enforces laws against discrimination [IHRC] (https://www.illinois.gov/ihrc/Pages/default.aspx) You will find the classes that I listed right at the top. Perhaps you have arrest records confused with criminal convictions? Or innocent until proven guilty is just for entitled people. lol
Your right, just like always in the other discussions you will argue till no end, Google has made everyone profesionals!I can just tell you in Illinois he wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Maybe the op will let us know how it plays out.My assumption is he will either have to pay an additional deposit, get rid of the tank, or move. I have never seen a Dr. prescribe a reef tank!
CStrickland
04/10/2015, 10:31 PM
Your right, just like always
:)
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